But I thought BMW and Mercedes et al would force the EU to give us a good deal.
I assume that's another Leaver piece of bollocks to be added to the list then eh?
You know as well i as i do that that the big multi-nationals will want to have the maximum amount of free trade. Although for some ( French car industry) there will be the opportunity to also gain market share over others (German car industry)
I have no doubt there will be hundreds of pro and anti scare stories in the coming years, but a combination of self interest, economic reality and i hate to say , the big Multi nationals, will ensure there will be some free trade but less than we would like for sure.
For the EU it is imperative that Britain is punished and seen to loose out and the bucket of cold sick that they have poured over TM's head the last few days will certainly ensure planning for hard Brexit goes into overdrive.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
But it's reinforced by confirmation bias, and the self-selecting circles in which the EU negotiators. Almost every Briton who'll be actively talking to the EU apparatchiks outside of HMG will be of the Wodger/ foxinsox/ ScottP type, and only too keen to encourage them to be as hard as nails to HMG to sock one to the Leavers, in the belief that we'll come to their senses.
If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?" They say "free movement" "Off the table" "You pay us" "Off the table" "EU Law prevails" "Off the table." UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU: 1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance) 2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance) 3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest) 4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)" "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy" "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege" "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win" "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you" Diamond Brexit it is.
You could add: 5. Continuation of EU wide agreements encouraging cross border movement such as EHIC, cheap air travel, mobile phone roaming etc. (both parties' interest, but more so EU given their reliance on UK tourism)
Genuinely, I am shocked as to the EU's negotiating stance to date. It seems to be based on a cross between an element of bluff, a complete misreading of a weak hand, and a willingness or even desire to reach a lose-lose outcome even though they lose more, pour encourager les autres.
I think it is driven by emotion, to a large extent.
Precisely so. They really do seem to view us as deserters who should face the consequences.
No doubt egged on by British bitter-enders who naively provide them with all the reassurance they need that, if they are sufficiently punitive, we will give up and seek to stop the process.
One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
This would be the Jean Claude Juncker who is on record as saying "when it becomes serious, you have to lie"
A man whose highest elected position is the equivalent of leading a Norfolk County Council only funded by tax avoidance? This man is determining the future of the UK and Europe?
Yes, the same man. Jean Claude Juncker.
Well, fuck you, mate, and fuck your Commission. This is what your intrinsic mediocrity leads us to. Endgame. Diamond Brexit. Brexeunt.
LOL! We're still at the "feeling out" stage in these negotiations.
Lets see what happens when things get started properly.
Except we are repeatedly told that the EU has all the cards (not just the strongest cards) and they will not bend and we will have to just take it, and therefore this is not just a negotiating stance.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Well, that escalated quickly.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
May is having a shocking campaign so far.
LOL! Most politicians would sacrifice their first-born for the kind of shocking campaign she's had so far.
It reminds me of 1987, when Labour persuaded themselves their campaign was far superior to the Tories'.
I've been starting to feel like parts of this campaign are a bit reminiscent of the 1987 election. In both good and bad ways.
(Though of course, a 1987 result would probably qualify as Labour beating expectations right now.)
Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.
Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
This would be the Jean Claude Juncker who is on record as saying "when it becomes serious, you have to lie"
A man whose highest elected position is the equivalent of leading a Norfolk County Council only funded by tax avoidance? This man is determining the future of the UK and Europe?
Yes, the same man. Jean Claude Juncker.
Well, fuck you, mate, and fuck your Commission. This is what your intrinsic mediocrity leads us to. Endgame. Diamond Brexit. Brexeunt.
I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
About 4 or 5 years ago, I was dating a Dutch student studying in this country, who, unsurprisingly, had a lot of EU friends, German, Spanish, Austrian and some others. It was the time of the Greek bailout crises, and we were in a bar, I made a simple joke about he Euro, and it did not go down well, at all, with any of the 10-12 EU nationals in our group. It was quite strange to realise I had hit a nearv with so many people all at once. But I still not think this is a Demos, without a common language, and with different cultural backgrounds.
I think some of this British angst about what is and isn't a demos comes from the fact that by default we think of a single central body whose writ runs as far as it pleases. This forces us to think of Westminster as a kind of national parish council where everyone is alike. There is enough cultural similarity between all of the current EU for a common political layer to be sustainable.
No there really really really isn't. Otherwise they would care about EU elections. On turnout, they don't. And nor should they. The power is in the Commission, which is unelected, and the Council of Ministers which depends on elections in other countries (not yours).
It's a system deliberately designed by the devil, i.e. a Frenchman, to smuggle power from the people to the elite, because the people are stupid and not to be trusted. Anglo-Saxon democracy is the opposite, and is superior.
The power is really with Merkel, as Germany is the EU's lender of first and last resort.
Juncker is effectively her poodle.
If Juncker wants to be taken seriously he should be publicly breathalysed before speaking publicly.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.
edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
I imagine those clever spin doctors have advised her to continually personalise it against Corbyn.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Well, that escalated quickly.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
And don't forget Sean is a SoftBrexit fan, were it available. But May isn't going for it, and the EU clearly wants as hard as possible as well, we all need to get used to that and hope it will not be as damaging as predicted, since even if Labour win Hard Brexit is on the cards given the EU's stance.
I genuinely struggle to understand people who proudly march next to Stalin flags. I mean, we worked with the bastard, we all know that, but the common person could at least pretend they didn't know what he was back then, and we do now, we know perfectly well what he was. Are people marching under his flag saying he was a good guy, are they saying the ideas of communism are still great in spite of him (in which case why not leave him off the banners?), seriously, what is going through their heads?
(I accept that perhaps some people at these events might not be Stalin fans, but are not so offended that they will not attend, such is their belief in communism. Which is...technically better I guess)
No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
May is having a shocking campaign so far.
LOL! Most politicians would sacrifice their first-born for the kind of shocking campaign she's had so far.
It reminds me of 1987, when Labour persuaded themselves their campaign was far superior to the Tories'.
Corbyn and Milne are also not in the same league as Kinnock and Mandelson presentation wise
If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?" They say "free movement" "Off the table" "You pay us" "Off the table" "EU Law prevails" "Off the table." UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU: 1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance) 2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance) 3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest) 4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)" "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy" "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege" "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win" "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you" Diamond Brexit it is.
The issue with that is something needs to be in place on 29 March 2019. The money - even €50 billion - over a decade or so is trivial in the scheme of things; something needs to be done about reciprocal citizen rights anyway. A comprehensive trade agreement won't and effectively can't be negotiated by then, except in broad outline. That 29 March 2019 date is of critical importance to us. We need an extension (misnamed as a transition agreement), and the EU will want one too. Everything else is much less urgent. We will get onto your four points eventually however.
That's why I think we will agree to the EU programme. They have thought this through.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
Seems to be significant , but I don't know how sincere. There's no reason to expect any Arab to think Israel has a "right to exist" rather than simply that it does exist and is a valid state. Recognition of a right to existence is not a requirement that exists anywhere else. At the end of the Second World War, Pomerania， which has always German， became part of Poland. Most Germans accept that Pomerania is now Polish, but they have never been required to agree to Pomerania being Polish by right.
They will continue to use phrases like "firm and fair", and stress this isn't "punishment" but the natural consequence of a member state leaving the EU, but everyone knows it isn't true.
If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?" They say "free movement" "Off the table" "You pay us" "Off the table" "EU Law prevails" "Off the table." UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU: 1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance) 2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance) 3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest) 4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)" "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy" "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege" "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win" "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you" Diamond Brexit it is.
The EU Big Wigs my prefer to avoid the use of the term punishment, but punishment it will be seen as being, if for no other reason than pour encourager les autres It's disappointing that our so-called European friends to whom we have gifted so many billions of pounds over the years want to treat us so viciously and cruelly .... they would be well advised to remember that the decision to leave their club was a vote by the ordinary British people rather than by its politicians who were generally in favour of remaining, which made the leave vote in the referendum vote all the more convincing.
The EU is treating us as a hostile state, not as a future partner.
If that's the game they want to play, they might find they end up playing it all by themselves.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
But it's reinforced by confirmation bias, and the self-selecting circles in which the EU negotiators. Almost every Briton who'll be actively talking to the EU apparatchiks outside of HMG will be of the Wodger/ foxinsox/ ScottP type, and only too keen to encourage them to be as hard as nails to HMG to sock one to the Leavers, in the belief that we'll come to their senses.
They are all wrong, and blissfully naive.
Remainers seem to have gone beyond Stockholm syndrome and into Max Mosley territory. They want to pay to be punished repeatedly.
Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.
Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.
Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
I genuinely struggle to understand people who proudly march next to Stalin flags. I mean, we worked with the bastard, we all know that, but the common person could at least pretend they didn't know what he was back then, and we do now, we know perfectly well what he was. Are people marching under his flag saying he was a good guy, are they saying the ideas of communism are still great in spite of him (in which case why not leave him off the banners?), seriously, what is going through their heads?
(I accept that perhaps some people at these events might not be Stalin fans, but are not so offended that they will not attend, such is their belief in communism. Which is...technically better I guess)
No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
No sensible person in the Western world could possibly deny the horrors of Stalin's regime after 1933, when Malcolm Muggeridge's reports appeared in the then-great Manchester Guardian.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.
edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
I imagine those clever spin doctors have advised her to continually personalise it against Corbyn.
She doesn't even need to name him: "A vote for me" implies "instead of him".
If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?" They say "free movement" "Off the table" "You pay us" "Off the table" "EU Law prevails" "Off the table." UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU: 1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance) 2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance) 3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest) 4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)" "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy" "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege" "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win" "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you" Diamond Brexit it is.
You could add: 5. Continuation of EU wide agreements encouraging cross border movement such as EHIC, cheap air travel, mobile phone roaming etc. (both parties' interest, but more so EU given their reliance on UK tourism)
Genuinely, I am shocked as to the EU's negotiating stance to date. It seems to be based on a cross between an element of bluff, a complete misreading of a weak hand, and a willingness or even desire to reach a lose-lose outcome even though they lose more, pour encourager les autres.
I think it is driven by emotion, to a large extent.
Precisely so. They really do seem to view us as deserters who should face the consequences.
No doubt egged on by British bitter-enders who naively provide them with all the reassurance they need that, if they are sufficiently punitive, we will give up and seek to stop the process.
One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
That is absolutely your naivety, and that of the EU as well.
Buckle up, LadIes and Gents, the Good Ship HMS Britannia is headed for the clear blue seas of no fucking deal whatsoever.
It will hurt. But it will, at least, be clean and precise.
it will hurt them too , we are not Belgium or Greece, we have a much greater arsenal of levers we can pull . My guess is the EU will blink first in this poker game , and if they really want to hurt us then who wants to be part of such a club that treats long standing members in such a way . Junker can do one
I genuinely struggle to understand people who proudly march next to Stalin flags. I mean, we worked with the bastard, we all know that, but the common person could at least pretend they didn't know what he was back then, and we do now, we know perfectly well what he was. Are people marching under his flag saying he was a good guy, are they saying the ideas of communism are still great in spite of him (in which case why not leave him off the banners?), seriously, what is going through their heads?
(I accept that perhaps some people at these events might not be Stalin fans, but are not so offended that they will not attend, such is their belief in communism. Which is...technically better I guess)
No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
I know, so how are there still so many people happily walking past Stalin flags? I know it is not many in the grand scheme, but one of them wants to be Chancellor for heaven's sake. As others have said, this sort of thing is known about him, it won't be a knockout blow, heck, I doubt it'll shift any votes at all, but it is genuinely worrisome. Either he doesn't care about the odious people he's sharing a platform with, or he agreed with them.
Labour will not get even a parish council vote from me while Corbyn and McDonnell are running the show. Men like McDonnell (who is even more superficially appealing than Corbyn, being more authoritative) are a prime example of why 'progressive alliances' are nonsense, the excusing of the unacceptable from those with the right label to defeat those with a different label, even if they might be more acceptable.
I've said before, I have never understood so well why people vote against a candidate rather than for a candidate as I have right now. They need to learn their lesson and rise again when the Tories cock things up.
Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.
Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.
Actually glad handing voters is in her DNA ever since she stood for her local council,. She complained that she was not being allowed to do more canvassing and is, even now, looking after her constituents as she always has.
She can come over as awkward but she also comes over as capable and serious. She does not do celebrity and will not bow to media pressure.
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
Tusk is obviously lying, Juncker would never do such a thing... unless he's had a drink. Does anyone know if he'd been drinking that day?
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
This would be the Jean Claude Juncker who is on record as saying "when it becomes serious, you have to lie"
A man whose highest elected position is the equivalent of leading a Norfolk County Council only funded by tax avoidance? This man is determining the future of the UK and Europe?
Yes, the same man. Jean Claude Juncker.
Well, fuck you, mate, and fuck your Commission. This is what your intrinsic mediocrity leads us to. Endgame. Diamond Brexit. Brexeunt.
I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
Poor short term memory I suppose.
Hmm .... I wonder what might be the cause of that?
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
I agree , we too have a hurricane in a us that will strip the EU bare . Thry want to punish us let them go ahead , we say do your worst and we will do our best - even if it does mean blood toil tears and sweat . Junker can do one https://youtu.be/lMpigAUQt_4
That is far more like the reaction the EU will release in the British if they carry on the way they are.
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
This would be the Jean Claude Juncker who is on record as saying "when it becomes serious, you have to lie"
A man whose highest elected position is the equivalent of leading a Norfolk County Council only funded by tax avoidance? This man is determining the future of the UK and Europe?
Yes, the same man. Jean Claude Juncker.
Well, fuck you, mate, and fuck your Commission. This is what your intrinsic mediocrity leads us to. Endgame. Diamond Brexit. Brexeunt.
I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.
Duty and ego are not incompatible. In fact, almost by definition if you think you are up to the job of PM, or at least the right person at the right time, you must have a serious amount of self-belief.
Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.
edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
I think it's clear that the Tories want the GE to be May vs Corbyn rather than Conservatives vs Labour. The latter might only give the Tories a 100 majority; who knows what the former might provide - the sky's the limit if you believe the polling.
If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?" They say "free movement" "Off the table" "You pay us" "Off the table" "EU Law prevails" "Off the table." UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU: 1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance) 2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance) 3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest) 4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)" "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy" "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege" "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win" "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you" Diamond Brexit it is.
You could add: 5. Continuation of EU wide agreements encouraging cross border movement such as EHIC, cheap air travel, mobile phone roaming etc. (both parties' interest, but more so EU given their reliance on UK tourism)
Genuinely, I am shocked as to the EU's negotiating stance to date. It seems to be based on a cross between an element of bluff, a complete misreading of a weak hand, and a willingness or even desire to reach a lose-lose outcome even though they lose more, pour encourager les autres.
I think it is driven by emotion, to a large extent.
Precisely so. They really do seem to view us as deserters who should face the consequences.
No doubt egged on by British bitter-enders who naively provide them with all the reassurance they need that, if they are sufficiently punitive, we will give up and seek to stop the process.
One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
At the moment medium remainers are recoiling in shock at the EU and in particular putting Juncker anywhere near the negotiations, so good luck with that.
Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.
Duty and ego are not incompatible. In fact, almost by definition if you think you are up to the job of PM, or at least the right person at the right time, you must have a serious amount of self-belief.
Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.
Why is the media letting him get away with this?
Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?
No one cares. Anyone politically aware likely to mind already knows what he's like, the right have already been told he's like it, and the left won't want to tar the rest of the movement with that unrepresentative brush (even though he wants to be Chancellor!)
No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
No sensible person in the Western world could possibly deny the horrors of Stalin's regime after 1933, when Malcolm Muggeridge's reports appeared in the then-great Manchester Guardian.
Lots of people did, they even denied that Soviet emigres were telling the truth.
Now historians can go and read the Soviet documents themselves, anyone who denies the truth about Stalin today is essentially claiming the Russians are lying about their own history.
No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.
Why is the media letting him get away with this?
Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?
No one cares. Anyone politically aware likely to mind already knows what he's like, the right have already been told he's like it, and the left won't want to tar the rest of the movement with that unrepresentative brush (even though he wants to be Chancellor!)
I'm going to say it.. do a lot of the public even know who Stalin or Mao were? They certainly don't know who John McDonnell is, at any rate.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Well, that escalated quickly.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
And don't forget Sean is a SoftBrexit fan, were it available. But May isn't going for it, and the EU clearly wants as hard as possible as well, we all need to get used to that and hope it will not be as damaging as predicted, since even if Labour win Hard Brexit is on the cards given the EU's stance.
I wanted an ultra-liberal EEA Soft Brexit. I was happy with the continuation of Free Movement. I JUST WANTED DAVID CAMERON TO DELIVER ON HIS BLOOMBERG SPEECH, and I would have voted Remain.
But the EU didn't budge,
If I'd remained convinced the EU could reform, I'd have voted remain too.
I hope for their sake they do get more flexible and not ignore problems. Pan-European elections would be an interesting start.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
But it's reinforced by confirmation bias, and the self-selecting circles in which the EU negotiators. Almost every Briton who'll be actively talking to the EU apparatchiks outside of HMG will be of the Wodger/ foxinsox/ ScottP type, and only too keen to encourage them to be as hard as nails to HMG to sock one to the Leavers, in the belief that we'll come to their senses.
They are all wrong, and blissfully naive.
Remainers seem to have gone beyond Stockholm syndrome and into Max Mosley territory. They want to pay to be punished repeatedly.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Putin's Russia is arguably the most powerful foreign policy power in the world right now
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Now you're just being silly. We will not have invaded anyone, or assassinated any political opponents, or started killing gays, or shutting down the free press. All we'll have done is elected baby-eaters.
Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.
Duty and ego are not incompatible. In fact, almost by definition if you think you are up to the job of PM, or at least the right person at the right time, you must have a serious amount of self-belief.
Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Says the chap who doesn't post here under his full name.
I see Verhofstadt and Macron are coming behind the idea of reallocating the seats of UK MEPs to Europe wide elections, presumably by PR that would seem a very good way of building the European Parliament as a democracy.
There is not, and can never be, a European demos, willing and able to instruct the ruling classes. That's why we Left.
There isn't a El dictator.
Well, Brexit might. It isn't so much a war as a common 'enemy' even if it's restricted to words.
If the people of the EU countries do see the UK as betraying the great project that has benefited them all hugely, we might become a sufficient 'enemy' to cause the single European demos to emerge.
LOL, I suppose, that Brexit could help that Demos emerge, but it will still be a long slow proses without a hot war. Ironically the UK leaving may help English grow to be seen as a neutral language, and become the Da-Facto language of the EU.
LOL. That would be ironic.
How does one say 'Woe, woe, and thrice woe' in French?
About 4f the 10-12 EU nationals in our group. It was quite strange to realise I had hit a nearv with so many people all at once. But I still not think this is a Demos, without a common language, and with different cultural backgrounds.
That's interesting. Clearly not there yet, but it does sound as though the seeds are there. That's very encouraging. (I may have voted Leave but I still want the EU to be a success for the people of Europe as well as for the political classes.)
Turnout levels in the EU Parliament elections. Declining horribly over time. Now down into the 40s.
It's not happening. An elite percentage of largely English-speaking Erasmus students feel *European*, yes; most Europeans pay lip service, but in reality it's all about nation and language.
at the risk of provoking howls of outrage, might I suggest that ever increasing levels of immigrant Muslims is not going to help
Seriously? you're suggesting low turnouts in the e.u parliaments is related to or effected by muslim immigration? People would blame muslims for a rainy summer if they could.
I was referring to the process of demos which was the subject of the thread.
Lots of people did, they even denied that Soviet emigres were telling the truth.
Now historians can go and read the Soviet documents themselves, anyone who denies the truth about Stalin today is essentially claiming the Russians are lying about their own history.
Yes, I know they did. It's an eternal stain on the Left.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.
Why is the media letting him get away with this?
Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?
No one cares. Anyone politically aware likely to mind already knows what he's like, the right have already been told he's like it, and the left won't want to tar the rest of the movement with that unrepresentative brush (even though he wants to be Chancellor!)
I'm going to say it.. do a lot of the public even know who Stalin or Mao were? They certainly don't know who John McDonnell is, at any rate.
A point I had not considered. I'd hope people at least know who Stalin is - WW2 history is pretty prevalent, hell there's too much focus on it, and WW2 games, documentaries and movies keep it in the public consciousness, and the message 'We worked with Stalin but he was an evil bastard' would I hope filter through even though it is not usually a central theme of entertainment and docu-dramas.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.
edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
I think it's clear that the Tories want the GE to be May vs Corbyn rather than Conservatives vs Labour. The latter might only give the Tories a 100 majority; who knows what the former might provide - the sky's the limit if you believe the polling.
May polls well above her party in a way Cameron did in 2010 or Blair in 1997 and 2001, it is hardly surprising her name is at the forefront of the campaign
Seems to be significant , but I don't know how sincere. There's no reason to expect any Arab to think Israel has a "right to exist" rather than simply that it does exist and is a valid state. Recognition of a right to existence is not a requirement that exists anywhere else. At the end of the Second World War, Pomerania， which has always German， became part of Poland. Most Germans accept that Pomerania is now Polish, but they have never been required to agree to Pomerania being Polish by right.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Well, that escalated quickly.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
And don't forget Sean is a SoftBrexit fan, were it available. But May isn't going for it, and the EU clearly wants as hard as possible as well, we all need to get used to that and hope it will not be as damaging as predicted, since even if Labour win Hard Brexit is on the cards given the EU's stance.
I wanted an ultra-liberal EEA Soft Brexit. I was happy with the continuation of Free Movement. I JUST WANTED DAVID CAMERON TO DELIVER ON HIS BLOOMBERG SPEECH, and I would have voted Remain.
But the EU didn't budge, Cameron was catastrophically inept, and we are where we are. I'm on the verge of calling for all-out-war on the Germans (and Luxembourgeois). It's a lesson in how things escalate.
I don't think you can dial down from this, not entirely. Clean Hard Vicious Brexit seems most likely, now. It's a sad rupture that could have been avoided umpteen times down the line, if any politician had been brave enough to grasp the euro-nettle, and call a plebiscite on a less than in/out issue. But our leaders were too shit, and too cowardly (left and right alike, and I mean BRITISH leaders, this was our failing).
Now we leave. Fuck the Europeans. Sausage-eating Treblinka-wankers.
Didn't you say yesterday you expected our GDP to go down by 5%-10% after Brexit but it was a price worth paying? Isn't that something like our defence budget our education budget or the entire NHS? Do you think the public will be equally sanguine?
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
May is having a shocking campaign so far.
LOL! Most politicians would sacrifice their first-born for the kind of shocking campaign she's had so far.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Putin's Russia is arguably the most powerful foreign policy power in the world right now
"But what surprised Mr Juncker the most, according to the leaked account, was Mrs May’s belief that a deal guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU could be agreed by the end of June. He suggested Mrs May was “underestimating” the complexity of the deal.
"However Mr Juncker cannot have been “astonished” because Mrs May said exactly the same thing to Donald Tusk on April 6, and an account of that meeting was briefed to top-level EU officials on April 11, according to an official diplomatic record of the meeting seen by The Telegraph.
"Piotr Serafin, chief of staff to Mr Tusk, briefed all the officials present from the EU 27, including those from the European Commission, that Mrs May had made clear the UK would seek a deal on expat rights “probably as early as June”."
Now, either the Telegraph is straightforwardly lying about the documents from early April, or the second-hand account of the meeting deliberately leaked by the EU side to the German press is, at least in part, fictitious. I leave readers to make up their minds as to which of these scenarios is most plausible.
This would be the Jean Claude Juncker who is on record as saying "when it becomes serious, you have to lie"
A man whose highest elected position is the equivalent of leading a Norfolk County Council only funded by tax avoidance? This man is determining the future of the UK and Europe?
Yes, the same man. Jean Claude Juncker.
Well, fuck you, mate, and fuck your Commission. This is what your intrinsic mediocrity leads us to. Endgame. Diamond Brexit. Brexeunt.
I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
Short-term memory loss does that. You can have the same conversation ad nauseam and still get the genuine surprised reaction.
If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Well, that escalated quickly.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
And don't forget Sean is a SoftBrexit fan, were it available. But May isn't going for it, and the EU clearly wants as hard as possible as well, we all need to get used to that and hope it will not be as damaging as predicted, since even if Labour win Hard Brexit is on the cards given the EU's stance.
I wanted an ultra-liberal EEA Soft Brexit. I was happy with the continuation of Free Movement. I JUST WANTED DAVID CAMERON TO DELIVER ON HIS BLOOMBERG SPEECH, and I would have voted Remain.
But the EU didn't budge, Cameron was catastrophically inept, and we are where we are. I'm on the verge of calling for all-out-war on the Germans (and Luxembourgeois). It's a lesson in how things escalate.
I don't think you can dial down from this, not entirely. Clean Hard Vicious Brexit seems most likely, now. It's a sad rupture that could have been avoided umpteen times down the line, if any politician had been brave enough to grasp the euro-nettle, and call a plebiscite on a less than in/out issue. But our leaders were too shit, and too cowardly (left and right alike, and I mean BRITISH leaders, this was our failing).
Now we leave. Fuck the Europeans. Sausage-eating Treblinka-wankers.
Didn't you say yesterday you expected our GDP to go down by 5%-10% after Brexit but it was a price worth paying? Isn't that something like our defence budget our education budget or the entire NHS? Do you think the public will be equally sanguine?
If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.
That's not the choice though. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Putin's Russia is arguably the most powerful foreign policy power in the world right now
I don't understand that, unless it's a pitch from a wannabe political advertising agency touting for business. Remain is not a thing any more, hard tho it is for some of its supporters to grasp that the 2016 EU referendum was decided in 2016, and that 2017 is after 2016 (at least, it is for A.D. dates). And while "if you vote x you will be a plonker" may be effective advertising, "if you voted x you are a plonker [when it's too late to do anything about it]" is massively counterproductive.
That's not the choice though. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
You are right, but bizarrely the EU27 claim that the bill has to be settled first.
I think our position should be clear. Laugh at 60 billion Euros and point out that if they want anything it would be above our actual obligations unless they can show us which treaty provision provides otherwise, and suggest if they actually want anything it had better be a stormingly good deal including everything we want negotiated in time for us leaving on the 29th of March 2019.
If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.
Is it just me or is Mrs May starting to sound fake? Too much referring to herself in a narcissistic way. I wonder how the British public will take six more weeks of this? Corbyn by contrast seems without ego.
May is having a shocking campaign so far.
LOL - keep telling yourself that.
Labour are doing all the heavy lifting for the tories.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
What a load of rubbish! If we can't agree a Brexit then the fault lies entirely with whoever wins the next GE. We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us. Is there any evidence to think otherwise? In The Wrath of Khan (1982), Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.” I think this is a lesson that anyone expecting a good outcome for the UK should take (or rather should have taken before voting in the referendum) on board.
I still don't see where they get 80 odd net gains from.
Scotland, Wales, North East, West Midlands, East Midlands, Cumbria, Lancashire.
I have some spare time in the next day or two, I'm going to have to get further into it. More importantly I'm looking for things that resist the trend, better money.
Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.
Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.
Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.
Sounds like more paperwork. I hope the Swiss are able to sign a very quick trade and immigration deal with the UK. It would make my life easy.
If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.
That is a hard sell. And as we are repeatedly told, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, so if the intent is to make no agreement look good by comparison - by saying 'you will get a shit show and you better say thank you for it', or 'you will get a shit show and screw you' - good job.
If it is just a negotiating position and there will be given and take before agreement, that's fine, even if perhaps we get a worse deal than thought. But we are also repeatedly told we cannot get a good deal as one is not possible, so it apparently is not a negotiating position and the choices are as you say.
That's not the choice though. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
You are right, but bizarrely the EU27 claim that the bill has to be settled first.
I think our position should be clear. Laugh at 60 billion Euros and point out that if they want anything it would be above our actual obligations unless they can show us which treaty provision provides otherwise, and suggest if they actually want anything it had better be a stormingly good deal including everything we want negotiated in time for us leaving on the 29th of March 2019.
Hard Brexit nailed on, as I have been saying for about 9 months.
Finally the Leavers cognitive dissonance is beginning to crystalise.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us.
Er, how? By demanding billions not legally enforceable, and a slew of other demands, while their supporters at home and abroad tell us we have no choice but to accept their demands and that any request of ours is unreasonable? How very accommodating.
No deal will probably be worse than a bad deal, and a good deal would be preferable all around. But fault for there being no deal - which will almost certainly be the case if, as we are repeatedly told, the EU is not going to budge on anything and we will not get anything we request - does not lie on one side.
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” .
The language of authoritarian regimes all around the world, communist and facist. Good mainland European tendencies. Fortunately not our Burkean heritage.
Interesting electoral fact for nerds: the 232 seats Labour won at GE2015 divide almost evenly into those with majorities of below 25% and those above. 117 below, 115 above.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
What a load of rubbish! If we can't agree a Brexit then the fault lies entirely with whoever wins the next GE. We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us. Is there any evidence to think otherwise? In The Wrath of Khan (1982), Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.” I think this is a lesson that anyone expecting a good outcome for the UK should take (or rather should have taken before voting in the referendum) on board.
Ah another lunatic who thinks that the EU can do no wrong.
I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us.
Er, how? By demanding billions not legally enforceable, and a slew of other demands, while their supporters at home and abroad tell us we have no choice but to accept their demands and that any request of ours is unreasonable? How very accommodating.
I did have a big laugh at the suggestion that they have tried to accommodate us.
No, it has to be agreed first. Payment comes later.
What matters is what we're getting in return. Obviously if we get nothing in return then we pay nothing. Therefore their position that the talks have to be in sequence is nonsensical.
It's even clearer when you think about the Irish border question, which they also say should be resolved before they'll discuss a trade deal. How on earth is that supposed to work? We're supposed to agree arrangements on the border without knowing whether there will have to be tariffs and customs checks at the border? Are these people quite sane?
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/28/donald-trump-first-100-days-resistance
I have no doubt there will be hundreds of pro and anti scare stories in the coming years, but a combination of self interest, economic reality and i hate to say , the big Multi nationals, will ensure there will be some free trade but less than we would like for sure.
For the EU it is imperative that Britain is punished and seen to loose out and the bucket of cold sick that they have poured over TM's head the last few days will certainly ensure planning for hard Brexit goes into overdrive.
They are all wrong, and blissfully naive.
We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
(Though of course, a 1987 result would probably qualify as Labour beating expectations right now.)
Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.
Except the brown one.
But yes, it will hurt.
http://elib.kkf.hu/poland/lengyel/history/picen/clip_image007.jpg
They say "free movement" "Off the table"
"You pay us" "Off the table"
"EU Law prevails" "Off the table."
UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU:
1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance)
2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance)
3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest)
4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)"
"Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy"
"We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege"
"Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win"
"But it's not win-lose, so no thank you"
Diamond Brexit it is.
The EU Big Wigs my prefer to avoid the use of the term punishment, but punishment it will be seen as being, if for no other reason than pour encourager les autres
It's disappointing that our so-called European friends to whom we have gifted so many billions of pounds over the years want to treat us so viciously and cruelly .... they would be well advised to remember that the decision to leave their club was a vote by the ordinary British people rather than by its politicians who were generally in favour of remaining, which made the leave vote in the referendum vote all the more convincing.
The EU is treating us as a hostile state, not as a future partner.
If that's the game they want to play, they might find they end up playing it all by themselves.
Remainers seem to have gone beyond Stockholm syndrome and into Max Mosley territory. They want to pay to be punished repeatedly.
I hope there is at least one member of the negotiating team that is not this dim
https://youtu.be/uB4o5n2EGyA
You couldn't be more wrong.
Labour will not get even a parish council vote from me while Corbyn and McDonnell are running the show. Men like McDonnell (who is even more superficially appealing than Corbyn, being more authoritative) are a prime example of why 'progressive alliances' are nonsense, the excusing of the unacceptable from those with the right label to defeat those with a different label, even if they might be more acceptable.
I've said before, I have never understood so well why people vote against a candidate rather than for a candidate as I have right now. They need to learn their lesson and rise again when the Tories cock things up.
She can come over as awkward but she also comes over as capable and serious. She does not do celebrity and will not bow to media pressure.
She is a formidable politician
Why is the media letting him get away with this?
Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?
Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
Now historians can go and read the Soviet documents themselves, anyone who denies the truth about Stalin today is essentially claiming the Russians are lying about their own history.
I hope for their sake they do get more flexible and not ignore problems. Pan-European elections would be an interesting start.
She will definitely avoid being harried by the EU-boat menace!
McDonnell and Corbyn would probably think this is for real...
Labour are doing all the heavy lifting for the tories.
YOU ARE UN-ELECTABLE right now
You guys broke it, you own it.
There should be half a dozen Conservative gains in London as well.
If it is just a negotiating position and there will be given and take before agreement, that's fine, even if perhaps we get a worse deal than thought. But we are also repeatedly told we cannot get a good deal as one is not possible, so it apparently is not a negotiating position and the choices are as you say.
Finally the Leavers cognitive dissonance is beginning to crystalise.
No deal will probably be worse than a bad deal, and a good deal would be preferable all around. But fault for there being no deal - which will almost certainly be the case if, as we are repeatedly told, the EU is not going to budge on anything and we will not get anything we request - does not lie on one side.
It's even clearer when you think about the Irish border question, which they also say should be resolved before they'll discuss a trade deal. How on earth is that supposed to work? We're supposed to agree arrangements on the border without knowing whether there will have to be tariffs and customs checks at the border? Are these people quite sane?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JttnDggWb8&t=1s
What a difference 20 years makes!