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  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    SeanT said:

    Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.

    Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.

    Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.

    I agree , we too have a hurricane in a us that will strip the EU bare . Thry want to punish us let them go ahead , we say do your worst and we will do our best - even if it does mean blood toil tears and sweat . Junker can do one
    https://youtu.be/lMpigAUQt_4
  • Twitter rumour: Ousted Corbynite SLab MP Katy Clark getting parachuted into Rochdale? That'll go down a treat with the CLP.
  • But I thought BMW and Mercedes et al would force the EU to give us a good deal.

    I assume that's another Leaver piece of bollocks to be added to the list then eh?

    You know as well i as i do that that the big multi-nationals will want to have the maximum amount of free trade. Although for some ( French car industry) there will be the opportunity to also gain market share over others (German car industry)

    I have no doubt there will be hundreds of pro and anti scare stories in the coming years, but a combination of self interest, economic reality and i hate to say , the big Multi nationals, will ensure there will be some free trade but less than we would like for sure.

    For the EU it is imperative that Britain is punished and seen to loose out and the bucket of cold sick that they have poured over TM's head the last few days will certainly ensure planning for hard Brexit goes into overdrive.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    1987 Cov City top at the crucible spotted :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,410
    SeanT said:

    Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.

    Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.

    Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.

    But it's reinforced by confirmation bias, and the self-selecting circles in which the EU negotiators. Almost every Briton who'll be actively talking to the EU apparatchiks outside of HMG will be of the Wodger/ foxinsox/ ScottP type, and only too keen to encourage them to be as hard as nails to HMG to sock one to the Leavers, in the belief that we'll come to their senses.

    They are all wrong, and blissfully naive.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,871

    Precisely so. They really do seem to view us as deserters who should face the consequences.

    No doubt egged on by British bitter-enders who naively provide them with all the reassurance they need that, if they are sufficiently punitive, we will give up and seek to stop the process.
    One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! We're still at the "feeling out" stage in these negotiations.

    Lets see what happens when things get started properly.
    Except we are repeatedly told that the EU has all the cards (not just the strongest cards) and they will not bend and we will have to just take it, and therefore this is not just a negotiating stance.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    SeanT said:

    Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.

    Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.

    Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.

    Well, that escalated quickly.

    We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Sean_F said:

    It reminds me of 1987, when Labour persuaded themselves their campaign was far superior to the Tories'.
    I've been starting to feel like parts of this campaign are a bit reminiscent of the 1987 election. In both good and bad ways.

    (Though of course, a 1987 result would probably qualify as Labour beating expectations right now.)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.

    Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608

    I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
    Poor short term memory I suppose.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    The power is really with Merkel, as Germany is the EU's lender of first and last resort.

    Juncker is effectively her poodle.
    If Juncker wants to be taken seriously he should be publicly breathalysed before speaking publicly.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.

    edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
    I imagine those clever spin doctors have advised her to continually personalise it against Corbyn.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608

    Well, that escalated quickly.

    We've gone from a hard Brexit, to a diamond Brexit to now diamond hard Brexit.
    And don't forget Sean is a SoftBrexit fan, were it available. But May isn't going for it, and the EU clearly wants as hard as possible as well, we all need to get used to that and hope it will not be as damaging as predicted, since even if Labour win Hard Brexit is on the cards given the EU's stance.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,371
    kle4 said:

    I genuinely struggle to understand people who proudly march next to Stalin flags. I mean, we worked with the bastard, we all know that, but the common person could at least pretend they didn't know what he was back then, and we do now, we know perfectly well what he was. Are people marching under his flag saying he was a good guy, are they saying the ideas of communism are still great in spite of him (in which case why not leave him off the banners?), seriously, what is going through their heads?

    (I accept that perhaps some people at these events might not be Stalin fans, but are not so offended that they will not attend, such is their belief in communism. Which is...technically better I guess)

    No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141
    Sean_F said:

    It reminds me of 1987, when Labour persuaded themselves their campaign was far superior to the Tories'.
    Corbyn and Milne are also not in the same league as Kinnock and Mandelson presentation wise
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Pulpstar said:

    1987 Cov City top at the crucible spotted :)

    Guys been wearing a different one everyday.
    Except the brown one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    Buckle up, LadIes and Gents, the Good Ship HMS Britannia is headed for the clear blue seas of no fucking deal whatsoever.

    It will hurt. But it will, at least, be clean and precise.

    No, it will be the messiest option, with the largest number of unforeseen consequences.

    But yes, it will hurt.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    FF43 said:

    The issue with that is something needs to be in place on 29 March 2019. The money - even €50 billion - over a decade or so is trivial in the scheme of things; something needs to be done about reciprocal citizen rights anyway. A comprehensive trade agreement won't and effectively can't be negotiated by then, except in broad outline. That 29 March 2019 date is of critical importance to us. We need an extension (misnamed as a transition agreement), and the EU will want one too. Everything else is much less urgent. We will get onto your four points eventually however.

    That's why I think we will agree to the EU programme. They have thought this through.
    I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141
    edited May 2017
    McDonnell speaks in front of Communist and Assad flags https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/859125633363980290
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,698
    FF43 said:

    Seems to be significant , but I don't know how sincere. There's no reason to expect any Arab to think Israel has a "right to exist" rather than simply that it does exist and is a valid state. Recognition of a right to existence is not a requirement that exists anywhere else. At the end of the Second World War, Pomerania, which has always German, became part of Poland. Most Germans accept that Pomerania is now Polish, but they have never been required to agree to Pomerania being Polish by right.
    Pomerania was Polish during the Middle Ages:

    http://elib.kkf.hu/poland/lengyel/history/picen/clip_image007.jpg
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,410
    edited May 2017


    They will continue to use phrases like "firm and fair", and stress this isn't "punishment" but the natural consequence of a member state leaving the EU, but everyone knows it isn't true.

    If we said to the EU, "so no ECJ and no payments, what relationship do you want?"
    They say "free movement" "Off the table"
    "You pay us" "Off the table"
    "EU Law prevails" "Off the table."
    UK says "Let's look at what we should both want, Mr EU:
    1. Free trade in goods (both parties' interests, but more so EU given trade balance)
    2. Freeish trade in services (both parties' interests, but more so UK given trade balance)
    3. EU access to UK fish (EU interest)
    4. Good security and defence relationship (both interest, but more so Baltic states)"
    "Security and defence are off the table" says the EU. "OK" says UK "No biggy"
    "We want FTA and your fish, no UK access on services, and you pay us for the privilege"
    "Why would we do such a deal? No, we give you FTA and fish, you give us something on services, no payments. Win-win"
    "But it's not win-lose, so no thank you"
    Diamond Brexit it is.

    The EU Big Wigs my prefer to avoid the use of the term punishment, but punishment it will be seen as being, if for no other reason than pour encourager les autres
    It's disappointing that our so-called European friends to whom we have gifted so many billions of pounds over the years want to treat us so viciously and cruelly .... they would be well advised to remember that the decision to leave their club was a vote by the ordinary British people rather than by its politicians who were generally in favour of remaining, which made the leave vote in the referendum vote all the more convincing.

    The EU is treating us as a hostile state, not as a future partner.

    If that's the game they want to play, they might find they end up playing it all by themselves.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    But it's reinforced by confirmation bias, and the self-selecting circles in which the EU negotiators. Almost every Briton who'll be actively talking to the EU apparatchiks outside of HMG will be of the Wodger/ foxinsox/ ScottP type, and only too keen to encourage them to be as hard as nails to HMG to sock one to the Leavers, in the belief that we'll come to their senses.

    They are all wrong, and blissfully naive.

    Remainers seem to have gone beyond Stockholm syndrome and into Max Mosley territory. They want to pay to be punished repeatedly.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited May 2017
    Rather good.

    image
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100

    Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.

    Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.

    Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,871

    I don't think they have. They are pissing remainers off now. The biggest issue (other than beind disingenuous) is that we can't agree to their biggest red line, which is Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away. It really is that simple.

    If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Brexit MUST be a failure. We simply will not agree to that. As for anything else, if they don't want to agree, then we walk away.

    Walking away guarantees failure...

    I hope there is at least one member of the negotiating team that is not this dim
  • isamisam Posts: 41,349
    glw said:

    No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
    Mao's alright though isn't he?

    https://youtu.be/uB4o5n2EGyA
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2017
    glw said:

    No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.

    No sensible person in the Western world could possibly deny the horrors of Stalin's regime after 1933, when Malcolm Muggeridge's reports appeared in the then-great Manchester Guardian.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited May 2017

    I imagine those clever spin doctors have advised her to continually personalise it against Corbyn.
    She doesn't even need to name him: "A vote for me" implies "instead of him".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,410

    One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
    That is absolutely your naivety, and that of the EU as well.

    You couldn't be more wrong.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    SeanT said:

    Buckle up, LadIes and Gents, the Good Ship HMS Britannia is headed for the clear blue seas of no fucking deal whatsoever.

    It will hurt. But it will, at least, be clean and precise.

    it will hurt them too , we are not Belgium or Greece, we have a much greater arsenal of levers we can pull . My guess is the EU will blink first in this poker game , and if they really want to hurt us then who wants to be part of such a club that treats long standing members in such a way . Junker can do one
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    edited May 2017
    glw said:

    No sensible person could deny what Stalin was like once the USSR collapsed. You can't dismiss criticism of Stalin as Western propaganda anymore, the Russians can provide bloody libraries full of documentation about what Stalin's rule was really like.
    I know, so how are there still so many people happily walking past Stalin flags? I know it is not many in the grand scheme, but one of them wants to be Chancellor for heaven's sake. As others have said, this sort of thing is known about him, it won't be a knockout blow, heck, I doubt it'll shift any votes at all, but it is genuinely worrisome. Either he doesn't care about the odious people he's sharing a platform with, or he agreed with them.

    Labour will not get even a parish council vote from me while Corbyn and McDonnell are running the show. Men like McDonnell (who is even more superficially appealing than Corbyn, being more authoritative) are a prime example of why 'progressive alliances' are nonsense, the excusing of the unacceptable from those with the right label to defeat those with a different label, even if they might be more acceptable.

    I've said before, I have never understood so well why people vote against a candidate rather than for a candidate as I have right now. They need to learn their lesson and rise again when the Tories cock things up.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,035

    Guys, let me put you straight. Theresa May is the most un-fake politician that you can imagine. She is exactly what she appears to be. She's the vicar's daughter who is doing her duty.

    Her duty includes doing some things which don't come naturally to her, such as glad-handing voters and repeating tedious soundbites zillions of times. But she dutifully does them.

    Actually glad handing voters is in her DNA ever since she stood for her local council,. She complained that she was not being allowed to do more canvassing and is, even now, looking after her constituents as she always has.

    She can come over as awkward but she also comes over as capable and serious. She does not do celebrity and will not bow to media pressure.

    She is a formidable politician
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Was there a Y in the day?
    I'll just check....
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    SeanT said:

    Buckle up, LadIes and Gents, the Good Ship HMS Britannia is headed for the clear blue seas of no fucking deal whatsoever.

    It will hurt. But it will, at least, be clean and precise.

    The EU fuddy duddies are terrified of a Le Pen victory. Once the French and UK elections are over, they'll settle down to rational dialogue.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,772
    No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.

    Why is the media letting him get away with this?

    Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?
  • kle4 said:

    Poor short term memory I suppose.
    Hmm .... I wonder what might be the cause of that?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,410
    kjohnw said:

    I agree , we too have a hurricane in a us that will strip the EU bare . Thry want to punish us let them go ahead , we say do your worst and we will do our best - even if it does mean blood toil tears and sweat . Junker can do one
    https://youtu.be/lMpigAUQt_4
    That is far more like the reaction the EU will release in the British if they carry on the way they are.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,871

    The EU fuddy duddies are terrified of a Le Pen victory.

    Who are you rooting for? Meglio fascista che frocio?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
    It is if you have Korsakoff's syndrome
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Jonathan said:

    Duty? Pah. She's a bog standard politician with an ego almost as large as her wardrobe.

    Duty and ego are not incompatible. In fact, almost by definition if you think you are up to the job of PM, or at least the right person at the right time, you must have a serious amount of self-belief.

    Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Ishmael_Z said:

    It grated with me that she was saying "a vote for me is a vote for s & s g" rather than " a vote for the conservatives is ..." at last pmqs. I don't think even Maggie did that.

    edit: but you are having a laugh about Corbyn, he is all ego and nothing else.
    I think it's clear that the Tories want the GE to be May vs Corbyn rather than Conservatives vs Labour. The latter might only give the Tories a 100 majority; who knows what the former might provide - the sky's the limit if you believe the polling.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    One of the preconditions for a reversal is that the diamond-hard Brexiteers have to go completely off the deep end so that the sane centre recoils in horror at what is becoming of the country. In the referendum they briefly convinced a majority that they were not advocating an extreme position, but as things escalate that illusion will fade.
    At the moment medium remainers are recoiling in shock at the EU and in particular putting Juncker anywhere near the negotiations, so good luck with that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100

    Duty and ego are not incompatible. In fact, almost by definition if you think you are up to the job of PM, or at least the right person at the right time, you must have a serious amount of self-belief.

    Self-doubting introverts who lack confidence and think someone else would be better at doing the job are not well-suited to the role, are they?
    Don't be so hard on yourself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    MikeL said:

    No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.

    Why is the media letting him get away with this?

    Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?

    No one cares. Anyone politically aware likely to mind already knows what he's like, the right have already been told he's like it, and the left won't want to tar the rest of the movement with that unrepresentative brush (even though he wants to be Chancellor!)
  • glwglw Posts: 10,371

    No sensible person in the Western world could possibly deny the horrors of Stalin's regime after 1933, when Malcolm Muggeridge's reports appeared in the then-great Manchester Guardian.
    Lots of people did, they even denied that Soviet emigres were telling the truth.

    Now historians can go and read the Soviet documents themselves, anyone who denies the truth about Stalin today is essentially claiming the Russians are lying about their own history.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,035
    TGOHF said:

    Rather good.

    image

    Really nails it - amazing talent to produce such topical cartoons
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    kle4 said:

    No one cares. Anyone politically aware likely to mind already knows what he's like, the right have already been told he's like it, and the left won't want to tar the rest of the movement with that unrepresentative brush (even though he wants to be Chancellor!)
    I'm going to say it.. do a lot of the public even know who Stalin or Mao were? They certainly don't know who John McDonnell is, at any rate.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,371
    HYUFD said:

    McDonnell speaks in front of Communist and Assad flags https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/859125633363980290

    The comments there are a treat, the real face of the "Progressive Alliance" in black and white.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    SeanT said:

    I wanted an ultra-liberal EEA Soft Brexit. I was happy with the continuation of Free Movement. I JUST WANTED DAVID CAMERON TO DELIVER ON HIS BLOOMBERG SPEECH, and I would have voted Remain.

    But the EU didn't budge,
    If I'd remained convinced the EU could reform, I'd have voted remain too.

    I hope for their sake they do get more flexible and not ignore problems. Pan-European elections would be an interesting start.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Rather good.

    Where's Nicola...?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141
    Puti

    If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
    Putin's Russia is arguably the most powerful foreign policy power in the world right now
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,410
    TGOHF said:


    Remainers seem to have gone beyond Stockholm syndrome and into Max Mosley territory. They want to pay to be punished repeatedly.
    They want to be vindicated.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,698
    SeanT said:

    Buckle up, LadIes and Gents, the Good Ship HMS Britannia is headed for the clear blue seas of no fucking deal whatsoever.

    It will hurt. But it will, at least, be clean and precise.

    HMS BREXITANIA!

    She will definitely avoid being harried by the EU-boat menace!
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
    Now you're just being silly. We will not have invaded anyone, or assassinated any political opponents, or started killing gays, or shutting down the free press. All we'll have done is elected baby-eaters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    The EU fuddy duddies are terrified of a Le Pen victory. Once the French and UK elections are over, they'll settle down to rational dialogue.
    The Italian elections next May will be even more of a threat given 5* are more electable than FN
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Jonathan said:

    Don't be so hard on yourself.
    Says the chap who doesn't post here under his full name.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,035
    MikeL said:

    No mention of McDonnell on any of tomorrow's front pages.

    Why is the media letting him get away with this?

    Surely Conservatives should go big time on this?

    Most likely will be in the sun but I am only guessing
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,083

    Hamas has started detoxifying itself it seems:

    https://twitter.com/FRANCE24/status/859130339410575360

    By using George Clooney as their spokesman?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    nunu said:

    Seriously? you're suggesting low turnouts in the e.u parliaments is related to or effected by muslim immigration? People would blame muslims for a rainy summer if they could.
    I was referring to the process of demos which was the subject of the thread.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    glw said:

    Lots of people did, they even denied that Soviet emigres were telling the truth.

    Now historians can go and read the Soviet documents themselves, anyone who denies the truth about Stalin today is essentially claiming the Russians are lying about their own history.

    Yes, I know they did. It's an eternal stain on the Left.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    If we just walk away then Brexit will be a failure that will turn us into a pariah on a par with Putin's Russia.
    Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    Danny565 said:

    I'm going to say it.. do a lot of the public even know who Stalin or Mao were? They certainly don't know who John McDonnell is, at any rate.
    A point I had not considered. I'd hope people at least know who Stalin is - WW2 history is pretty prevalent, hell there's too much focus on it, and WW2 games, documentaries and movies keep it in the public consciousness, and the message 'We worked with Stalin but he was an evil bastard' would I hope filter through even though it is not usually a central theme of entertainment and docu-dramas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    I think it's clear that the Tories want the GE to be May vs Corbyn rather than Conservatives vs Labour. The latter might only give the Tories a 100 majority; who knows what the former might provide - the sky's the limit if you believe the polling.
    May polls well above her party in a way Cameron did in 2010 or Blair in 1997 and 2001, it is hardly surprising her name is at the forefront of the campaign
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,887

    Pomerania was Polish during the Middle Ages:

    http://elib.kkf.hu/poland/lengyel/history/picen/clip_image007.jpg
    Thanks, I didn't know that. The pleasure of PB is that you learn.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    Walking away guarantees failure...

    I hope there is at least one member of the negotiating team that is not this dim
    Well, it's lose lose, but they appear to want us to lose. Until that changes there will be no fruitful negotiations.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,483
    edited May 2017
    SeanT said:

    I wanted an ultra-liberal EEA Soft Brexit. I was happy with the continuation of Free Movement. I JUST WANTED DAVID CAMERON TO DELIVER ON HIS BLOOMBERG SPEECH, and I would have voted Remain.

    But the EU didn't budge, Cameron was catastrophically inept, and we are where we are. I'm on the verge of calling for all-out-war on the Germans (and Luxembourgeois). It's a lesson in how things escalate.

    I don't think you can dial down from this, not entirely. Clean Hard Vicious Brexit seems most likely, now. It's a sad rupture that could have been avoided umpteen times down the line, if any politician had been brave enough to grasp the euro-nettle, and call a plebiscite on a less than in/out issue. But our leaders were too shit, and too cowardly (left and right alike, and I mean BRITISH leaders, this was our failing).

    Now we leave. Fuck the Europeans. Sausage-eating Treblinka-wankers.
    Didn't you say yesterday you expected our GDP to go down by 5%-10% after Brexit but it was a price worth paying? Isn't that something like our defence budget our education budget or the entire NHS? Do you think the public will be equally sanguine?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    https://twitter.com/DPRK_News/status/855091116571586561

    McDonnell and Corbyn would probably think this is for real...
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    LOL! Most politicians would sacrifice their first-born for the kind of shocking campaign she's had so far.
    I thought J was being ironic
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    Puti

    Putin's Russia is arguably the most powerful foreign policy power in the world right now
    Backing Jezza in this one I expect...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,429

    I suppose it's just possible to be "repeatedly astonished".
    Short-term memory loss does that. You can have the same conversation ad nauseam and still get the genuine surprised reaction.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    The EU fuddy duddies are terrified of a Le Pen victory. Once the French and UK elections are over, they'll settle down to rational dialogue.
    They have the Italians coming up next March.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.
  • Arthur_PennyArthur_Penny Posts: 198
    Roger said:

    Didn't you say yesterday you expected our GDP to go down by 5%-10% after Brexit but it was a price worth paying? Isn't that something like our defence budget our education budget or the entire NHS? Do you think the public will be equally sanguine?
    We were hit for 5% back in 2007-2008.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,871

    If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.

    That's not the choice though. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    That's not the choice though. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

    You are right, but bizarrely the EU27 claim that the bill has to be settled first.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    Backing Jezza in this one I expect...
    Corbyn and Nuttall and Sturgeon I expect
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand that, unless it's a pitch from a wannabe political advertising agency touting for business. Remain is not a thing any more, hard tho it is for some of its supporters to grasp that the 2016 EU referendum was decided in 2016, and that 2017 is after 2016 (at least, it is for A.D. dates). And while "if you vote x you will be a plonker" may be effective advertising, "if you voted x you are a plonker [when it's too late to do anything about it]" is massively counterproductive.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    You are right, but bizarrely the EU27 claim that the bill has to be settled first.
    I think our position should be clear. Laugh at 60 billion Euros and point out that if they want anything it would be above our actual obligations unless they can show us which treaty provision provides otherwise, and suggest if they actually want anything it had better be a stormingly good deal including everything we want negotiated in time for us leaving on the 29th of March 2019.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2017
    Y0kel said:

    I still don't see where they get 80 odd net gains from.

    Scotland, Wales, North East, West Midlands, East Midlands, Cumbria, Lancashire.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.

    :D
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    You are right, but bizarrely the EU27 claim that the bill has to be settled first.
    No, it has to be agreed first. Payment comes later.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Jonathan said:

    May is having a shocking campaign so far.
    LOL - keep telling yourself that.

    Labour are doing all the heavy lifting for the tories.

    YOU ARE UN-ELECTABLE right now

    You guys broke it, you own it.

  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185

    Why? We will have fulfilled all our legal obligations and negotiated in good faith. They will not have.
    What a load of rubbish! If we can't agree a Brexit then the fault lies entirely with whoever wins the next GE. We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us. Is there any evidence to think otherwise? In The Wrath of Khan (1982), Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.” I think this is a lesson that anyone expecting a good outcome for the UK should take (or rather should have taken before voting in the referendum) on board.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    AndyJS said:

    Scotland, Wales, North East, West Midlands, East Midlands, Cumbria, Lancashire.
    I have some spare time in the next day or two, I'm going to have to get further into it. More importantly I'm looking for things that resist the trend, better money.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,843
    SeanT said:

    Reading the Telegraph report on the Juncker Brexit Dinner Leak, it's clear they want to hurt us, just because. Even if it harms them, we must suffer more, pour encourager les autres.

    Enough of this. Diamond Brexit. We leave, we suffer, they don't get a fucking penny, every European in a job in the UK can expect to feel anxiety from now on, likewise all our stupid pensioners over there.

    Fuck it. Let's do it. DIAMOND HARD.

    Sounds like more paperwork. I hope the Swiss are able to sign a very quick trade and immigration deal with the UK. It would make my life easy.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,535
    AndyJS said:

    Scotland, Wales, North East, West Midlands, East Midlands, Cumbria, Lancashire.
    What about Yorkshire ???

    There should be half a dozen Conservative gains in London as well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608

    If the choice is a disaster of hard Brexit, and a disaster of hard Brexit after we've coughed up €60bn, then it's not a terribly difficult choice. Oddly, the fantasists of the EU27 negotiating team don't quite seem to have got their heads around this simple point.

    That is a hard sell. And as we are repeatedly told, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, so if the intent is to make no agreement look good by comparison - by saying 'you will get a shit show and you better say thank you for it', or 'you will get a shit show and screw you' - good job.

    If it is just a negotiating position and there will be given and take before agreement, that's fine, even if perhaps we get a worse deal than thought. But we are also repeatedly told we cannot get a good deal as one is not possible, so it apparently is not a negotiating position and the choices are as you say.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I think our position should be clear. Laugh at 60 billion Euros and point out that if they want anything it would be above our actual obligations unless they can show us which treaty provision provides otherwise, and suggest if they actually want anything it had better be a stormingly good deal including everything we want negotiated in time for us leaving on the 29th of March 2019.
    Hard Brexit nailed on, as I have been saying for about 9 months.

    Finally the Leavers cognitive dissonance is beginning to crystalise.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    An agreement would be a 'peace in our time' sort of agreement - it won't mean anything from the EU.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    What about Yorkshire ???

    There should be half a dozen Conservative gains in London as well.
    I should have included Yorkshire.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,608
    edited May 2017
    Ally_B said:

    We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us.
    Er, how? By demanding billions not legally enforceable, and a slew of other demands, while their supporters at home and abroad tell us we have no choice but to accept their demands and that any request of ours is unreasonable? How very accommodating.

    No deal will probably be worse than a bad deal, and a good deal would be preferable all around. But fault for there being no deal - which will almost certainly be the case if, as we are repeatedly told, the EU is not going to budge on anything and we will not get anything we request - does not lie on one side.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ally_B said:

    “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” .

    The language of authoritarian regimes all around the world, communist and facist. Good mainland European tendencies. Fortunately not our Burkean heritage.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2017
    Interesting electoral fact for nerds: the 232 seats Labour won at GE2015 divide almost evenly into those with majorities of below 25% and those above. 117 below, 115 above.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    Ally_B said:

    What a load of rubbish! If we can't agree a Brexit then the fault lies entirely with whoever wins the next GE. We will not have negotiated in good faith, as increasingly appears will be the case, whilst they will have tried to accommodate us. Is there any evidence to think otherwise? In The Wrath of Khan (1982), Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.” I think this is a lesson that anyone expecting a good outcome for the UK should take (or rather should have taken before voting in the referendum) on board.
    Ah another lunatic who thinks that the EU can do no wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,367
    kle4 said:

    Er, how? By demanding billions not legally enforceable, and a slew of other demands, while their supporters at home and abroad tell us we have no choice but to accept their demands and that any request of ours is unreasonable? How very accommodating.

    I did have a big laugh at the suggestion that they have tried to accommodate us.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2017

    No, it has to be agreed first. Payment comes later.

    What matters is what we're getting in return. Obviously if we get nothing in return then we pay nothing. Therefore their position that the talks have to be in sequence is nonsensical.

    It's even clearer when you think about the Irish border question, which they also say should be resolved before they'll discuss a trade deal. How on earth is that supposed to work? We're supposed to agree arrangements on the border without knowing whether there will have to be tariffs and customs checks at the border? Are these people quite sane?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    What was everyone doing this time 20 years ago then?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JttnDggWb8&t=1s

    What a difference 20 years makes! :smiley:
This discussion has been closed.