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BigRich said:

Does anybody track, locale government councillors defecting from one party to another?

We use LG by-elections as a reasonable if not prises proxy for how voters might vote in a GE, I am wondering if we could use councillors defecting as a proxy for activists moving party?

I think there has been a few UKIP to Con defections, I was wondering have there been any/many Lab to Lib-Dem defections?

That would be very handy indeed, though I think it would be much harder to pull together - outside of parties themselves trumpeting defections to them, there's no official announcement you'd need, so presumably you'd have to check every authorities' council meeting agendas for details of changes to political proportionality and thus committee place appointment.

They can be odd though - I'm sure I read a Green had defected to Con somewhere in the south, and in Wiltshire in 4 years there's been 2 LD defections to Con (1 after a period of Indy), and 3 other LD defections to Indy.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pb brain trust...Does anybody have any suggestions for a graphic tablet which you plug into your pc, which I will only use for annotating documents, writing maths and creating organisation charts ie I won't be using it to create any art so don't need the pro level ones.

There's only one name in graphic tablets -Wacom. Choose one to match your budget, the cheapest small tablet and pen I can see now on Amazon is £55.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wacom-CTL-471-Small-Graphic-Tablet/dp/B00NFQ3H3S/

I thought wacom tablet was just the name for a graphic tablet, so they truly must be the only name in town.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pb brain trust...Does anybody have any suggestions for a graphic tablet which you plug into your pc, which I will only use for annotating documents, writing maths and creating organisation charts ie I won't be using it to create any art so don't need the pro level ones.

There's only one name in graphic tablets -Wacom. Choose one to match your budget, the cheapest small tablet and pen I can see now on Amazon is £55.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wacom-CTL-471-Small-Graphic-Tablet/dp/B00NFQ3H3S/

Are the cheap knockoff huion ones any good?

Not sure, some of the newer Chinese stuff (in general IT, not this specific product) is 90% of the way there, other times it's the same crap it's always been.

I would suggest you have a play with the product (of whatever brand) in a store before ordering, else order from someone with a good returns policy. Wacom is an industry standard among designers (every single customer of mine who works in this field uses them) and I know it does the job well.

isam said:

https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/852951101695561729

I read it in Costa today (we don't get it free at work anymore, godsdammit). Kelvin was his usual self: kick somebody, kick somebody, plug his website, list a firm with a funny name, kick somebody. This happens every now and then: the commentariat get used to a life fucking people up for fun, then one day they accidentally pick on somebody who can fight back and everybody abandons them.

In this specific case, he waxed lyrical on the usual "Scouser in a suit" riff for a para or two. Ho, ho. Unfortunately, that's Kelvin McKenzie. Taking the piss out of Liverpool. After Hillsborough, that's the equivalent of standing in a tin bath wrapped in foil on a summit shouting "ALL THUNDER GODS ARE BASTARDS" during a lightning storm.

Mind you though, he is a c**t, so my sympathy is somewhat limited.

wasd said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pb brain trust...Does anybody have any suggestions for a graphic tablet which you plug into your pc, which I will only use for annotating documents, writing maths and creating organisation charts ie I won't be using it to create any art so don't need the pro level ones.

There's only one name in graphic tablets -Wacom. Choose one to match your budget, the cheapest small tablet and pen I can see now on Amazon is £55.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wacom-CTL-471-Small-Graphic-Tablet/dp/B00NFQ3H3S/

Unless you need it urgently then consider waiting until after the Apple dev conference in June. There's some suggestion that they're going to bake in using the iPad Pro as a graphics tablet which may cause competitors to drop their prices to compete.

That would compete at the very top end of the market (and I hope Apple go for it) but the enquiry was for something simple to markup documents. An iPad Pro starts at £549 plus the pen.

SeanT said:

I think this is my favourite New European headline of the last week.

"Brexit is a tower of lies swaying alarmingly - we must push it over"

A TOWER OF LIES, SWAYING ALARMINGLY

They put that in an actual headline. Genius.

I've seen the new European in the new stands but never seen anybody buying one or reading it, at a guess it will be loosing money at the moment, most new newspapers are when they start. Is there a rich millionaire behind the enterprise that can keep it going? if not I cant see it brakeing even any time soon

justin124 said:

kle4 said:

justin124 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

justin124 said:

surbiton said:

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

'Starmer vs Cooper would be a great leadership election'

Whoever it is labour really have little choice now but to select a female MP and for that reason Starmer is not going to win. As for Cooper she is a bit old school and someone from the 2010 - 2015 would be a better choice but few have had a chance to shine under the utter destructive leadership of Corbyn

Perhaps an Australian would appeal to Brexit Britain. Could they bring back Patricia Hewitt?

If you want to go that far back, Harriet is still your best bet. Widely respected in the party.

Not by everybody. She bears the principal responsibility for Corbyn becoming Leader.

Thought that was Miliband's fault with his £3 membership fee

No - it was Harman's fault for forcing the Shadow Cabinet to abstain on Osborne's Welfare proposals - leaving Corbyn as the only contender to oppose them. Had that not happened , he would have lost - indeed come third.

They could have seen which the wind was blowing and and opposed it too.

The other three were Shadow Cabinet members. I think they ought to have stepped down for the duration of the contest and so given themselves the freedom to vote against the proposals.

Well exactly. Now, it may be that they supported that position and did not realise Corbyn would manage to seize the opening so well, but from a political contest point of view, it's a surprise none of them figured resigning from the shadow cabinet to vote against them would be a good differentiation strategy - a new shadow cabinet would be coming with a new leader in any case, so less risk.

justin124 said:

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

ydoethur said:

justin124 said:

I agree with you re- the likes of Cat Smith and would expect little change at all were such a person to take over. As far as charisma is concerned, I suspect for now that is not what the electorate is looking for. Theresa May is hardly charismatic and I suspect that fits the national mood quite well and explains why quite a few non - Tories such as myself have warmed to her.We have had too many shysters such as Blair and Cameron.

Well - perhaps. But I think it's much easier for a PM to get away with a lack of charisma because while in office they can show unflappable competence and that gets attention. (Well, maybe that's an exaggeration in May's case but as PM she's always news. She doesn't have to go to the news channels, they come to her. She also doesn't have to say what she would do, she can just get on and do it.) As LotO, you need to find a way to attract that attention and get people to listen to you, because you can't prove yourself by results. That's one reason I think why ultimately Ed Miliband, who was a poor speaker and communicator although he had a number of potentially good ideas, proved a failure while Blair and Cameron succeeded.

Ed Milliband was just too geeky and unable to connect.I suspect that people such as Yvette Cooper and Keir Starmer would do quite well up against Theresa May.

I could see Starmer as a Kinnock/Howard figure ie an effective opposition leader but not a PM. Someone like Umunna is more likely to be a future PM after another Labour defeat, the question is whether that is a humiliating Corbyn led defeat or a respectable Starmer (or similar) led defeat

I disagree . Umunna does not strike me as particularly authentic at all - and is rumoured to have skeletons waiting to be pulled out.

Umunna has charisma and is telegenic, Starmer is neither just more competent and a shade more centrist than Corbyn

Starmer is way to the right of Corbyn - probably close to Hilary Benn.
Umunna reaks of insincerity and I suspect he would not cope well with the pressures of leadership.

Starmer is Kinnockite Labour, Umunna is Blairite Labour and we all know which one of those won elections

Starmer could well run the Tories as close in 2020 as Howard did in reverse in 2005. A 3% Tory lead could well mean a Hung Parliament.

Not so likely as the Tories will pick up former UKIP voters and even then he would still lose

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

Sandpit said:

viewcode said:

isam said:

https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/852951101695561729

I read it in Costa today (we don't get it free at work anymore, godsdammit). Kelvin was his usual self: kick somebody, kick somebody, plug his website, list a firm with a funny name, kick somebody. This happens every now and then: the commentariat get used to a life fucking people up for fun, then one day they accidentally pick on somebody who can fight back and everybody abandons them.

In this specific case, he waxed lyrical on the usual "Scouser in a suit" riff for a para or two. Ho, ho. Unfortunately, that's Kelvin McKenzie. Taking the piss out of Liverpool. After Hillsborough, that's the equivalent of standing in a tin bath wrapped in foil on a summit shouting "ALL THUNDER GODS ARE BASTARDS" during a lightning storm.

Mind you though, he is a c**t, so my sympathy is somewhat limited.

On the anniversary of Hillsborough, that's why it's been picked up. As you say, c**t.

15/04/89. RIP the 96.

Jesus, really? (Checks the dates). Oh well, that's it. What in the name of arse was he thinking?

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

Sandpit said:

Been out all day so coming late to the party, but the comments under Diane's Labourlist article about the wonderful Jeremy are hilarious. Difficult to know which are genuine and which are spoofs.

That's the fun. With the Tories being all conquering at the moment (well, not quite, but flush with confidence to say the least) I doubt the ones at ConHome are as amusing.

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

isam said:

viewcode said:

isam said:

https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/852951101695561729

I read it in Costa today (we don't get it free at work anymore, godsdammit). Kelvin was his usual self: kick somebody, kick somebody, plug his website, list a firm with a funny name, kick somebody. This happens every now and then: the commentariat get used to a life fucking people up for fun, then one day they accidentally pick on somebody who can fight back and everybody abandons them.

In this specific case, he waxed lyrical on the usual "Scouser in a suit" riff for a para or two. Ho, ho. Unfortunately, that's Kelvin McKenzie. Taking the piss out of Liverpool. After Hillsborough, that's the equivalent of standing in a tin bath wrapped in foil on a summit shouting "ALL THUNDER GODS ARE BASTARDS" during a lightning storm.

Mind you though, he is a c**t, so my sympathy is somewhat limited.

Would have loved to see his face when he found out Barkley is part Nigerian! It has provoked a nasty twitter argument between Ian Wright & Stan Collymore

h ttps://twitter.com/stancollymore/status/852979046623346689

h ttps://twitter.com/ianwright0/status/852983465263988736

There has got to be an emoji for "places palm on forehead, looks down, doesn't know whether to laugh or to cry"...

SeanT said:

kle4 said:

SeanT said:

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Trigger warning for kippers :-)

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/what-we-can-learn-from-the-first-easter-and-the-will-of-the-people-1-4977058

The New European is quite something. It makes the National look sane.

It reads like one of those newsletters created by a small mad socialist cult, which wants proper welfare, and nationalised railways, but also thinks Jews are secretly trying to kill all the badgers.

It is indeed bonkers, I shall post a link to it whenever a Remainer refers to "swivel-eyed Brexiteers" - because I have never seen anything half as barking, not even from a kipper.

It's got that fabulous mix you get from Mormon papers or quirky Marxist magazines. There are apparently sane and sensible pieces, even interesting stuff, then there's a sudden gush of 100% toys-in-the-attic loopyland frothing and calls for all-out war against the Rothschilds and their badger-hating Mexican gangster allies, then back to sensible discussion of exchange rates.

It's like a Natural Law PEB then.

'The natural law party will appoint 7000 expects in transcendental meditation and yogic flying *image of bouncing yoga man*' and 'the natural law party is the only party that can strengthen the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and at the same time create a real union of the European Nations. In the United Kingdom and the European Union, we will eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy'.

Wait..damnit, you all should have listened to them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=438UKM1Av1g

Bloke at work gushes about the New European all the time, I've not read any of it yet - as I respond generically that I'm glad of as many divergent opinions as possible, they may not have twigged I voted Brexit, if hardly on the extreme end of that spectrum.

I just checked their roster of writers and it turns out I personally KNOW two of them rather well. One is an Old Etonian, the other a very very rich man. They really are the kind of people who aren't used to losing. Hence, perhaps, their crazed reaction.

Even worse - they lost to people they look down on from places they've never heard of.

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

My friends' went to Heysal in 1980 for the Cup Winners' Cup Final and they say that the stadium was falling to bits then. And to be fair, the Juve fans didn't cover themselves in glory that night either. But I don't think you can dismiss Heysal as the actions of organised hooligans. They were regular Liverpool fans in the stadium. It could have been other supporters, but it wasn't.

Mortimer said:

HYUFD said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/852991352149123072

Mr Eagles and his hilarious Burgon betting slips will not be happy...

I like that the tweet says he 'faces fury', while the linked headline says 'faced scorn'. The latter seems more appropriate, if any reaction is warranted. Oh no, they use germanic lettering, let me fetch my smelling salts.

Edit - According to wikipedia Tom Newton-Dunn's middle name is Zoltan - now that is a badass name I'd expect to see in a metal band.

another_richard said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

Did Coventry, Wimbledon, Oxford and Luton ever have another chance od European competition before or after ?

Coventry played in the 70-71 Fairs Cup. Wimbledon played in the 95-96 Inter-Toto Cup which doesn't really count.

Personally I think UEFA should have banned Liverpool for 20 years and let the rest get on with it.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

Rule #2 of PB - never keep perspective

(Rule #1 is AV is interesting, Rule #3 is subsamples can be trusted, and Rule #4 is SCON is always about to surge, and so on and so forth)

tlg86 said:

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

My friends' went to Heysal in 1980 for the Cup Winners' Cup Final and they say that the stadium was falling to bits then. And to be fair, the Juve fans didn't cover themselves in glory that night either. But I don't think you can dismiss Heysal as the actions of organised hooligans. They were regular Liverpool fans in the stadium. It could have been other supporters, but it wasn't.

Hooliganism was a fundamental part of football in that era.

While there were few hardcore hooligans many football fans appreciated the image hooliganism brought.

'Liverpool 39 Juventus 0' was seen on school desks and graffitied walls throughout Britain - and also Italy care of Torino and Fiorentina fans.

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

I'd only be scared of the building Korea crisis if I lived in or near Korea. However, if we get into a confrontation between the US and Russia in the Middle East then I'd be worried it could all go Able Archer.

tlg86 said:

another_richard said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

Did Coventry, Wimbledon, Oxford and Luton ever have another chance od European competition before or after ?

Coventry played in the 70-71 Fairs Cup. Wimbledon played in the 95-96 Inter-Toto Cup which doesn't really count.

Personally I think UEFA should have banned Liverpool for 20 years and let the rest get on with it.

It could have happened to any English club, things had been building up to it for over a decade.

rpjs said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

I'd only be scared of the building Korea crisis if I lived in or near Korea. However, if we get into a confrontation between the US and Russia in the Middle East then I'd be worried it could all go Able Archer.

The problem is that Japan is also involved and of course China. I sailed on a cruise from Vancouver four years ago to Japan, Southern Russia, past North Korea and on to South Korea and China. The relative closeness of this area is remarkable and those in the region must be very fearful at present

david_herdson said:

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

With respect, that's a pathetic response that seeks to evade responsibility because others were doing it and some still are doing it. Yes, they were and they are (and Liverpool did more than their own fair share beyond Heysal), and for that matter, UEFA and others have responsibilities for choosing an inappropriate and unsafe ground. But the primary responsibility for those deaths lies with the fans of Liverpool FC.

When the club later played Juventus, Liverpool wanted and expected reconciliation. If they can expect that from a club which had every right to bear a deep and lasting scar against Liverpool, why can they not let go of a shoddy piece of reporting from nearly 30 years ago? The simple answer is that they don't want to let go: they want to be the victims, they want to be aggrieved and they revel in that self-perceived status.

I wonder if there will come a time when Scousers are officially designated as 'ethnic minorities'. I'm sure they would embrace such a move, especially if it gave them certain privileges regarding housing. I don't much care for Liverpool, its football, or its people. It is a benighted city.

david_herdson said:

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

With respect, that's a pathetic response that seeks to evade responsibility because others were doing it and some still are doing it. Yes, they were and they are (and Liverpool did more than their own fair share beyond Heysal), and for that matter, UEFA and others have responsibilities for choosing an inappropriate and unsafe ground. But the primary responsibility for those deaths lies with the fans of Liverpool FC.

When the club later played Juventus, Liverpool wanted and expected reconciliation. If they can expect that from a club which had every right to bear a deep and lasting scar against Liverpool, why can they not let go of a shoddy piece of reporting from nearly 30 years ago? The simple answer is that they don't want to let go: they want to be the victims, they want to be aggrieved and they revel in that self-perceived status.

I was too young to understand Hysel at the time, but old enough to be affected by Hillsborough a few years later (born 1977). The deaths at Hysel are something I've read about subsequently, whereas the deaths at Hillsborough were a much bigger personal story at the time. As I understand it there were a number of factors in what happened at Hysel, including Juve fans in the supposedly neutral and Liverpool sections, as well as known hooligans within the Liverpool support. At the time tickets were available freely from box offices and travel agents, without questions as to which team you were supporting. It's easy to judge events of 32 years ago by modern standards, when it's almost impossible to get tickets except through your team's supporters club or hospitality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster

Surely the one thing we can agree on is that Kelvin McKenzie is a f***ing idiot for making derogatory comments about Liverpool on the Hillsborough anniversary?

One of the most bizarre things I've ever done was buy a ticket to Pyongyang at a train station in South Korea next to the border with North Korea.

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

Wasn't there a scare in 1983, when the Soviets thought the Americans were launching an attack, but later found out it was a false alarm

Blimey. We may not make Easter Monday.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/853003860759240705

Jason said:

david_herdson said:

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

With respect, that's a pathetic response that seeks to evade responsibility because others were doing it and some still are doing it. Yes, they were and they are (and Liverpool did more than their own fair share beyond Heysal), and for that matter, UEFA and others have responsibilities for choosing an inappropriate and unsafe ground. But the primary responsibility for those deaths lies with the fans of Liverpool FC.

When the club later played Juventus, Liverpool wanted and expected reconciliation. If they can expect that from a club which had every right to bear a deep and lasting scar against Liverpool, why can they not let go of a shoddy piece of reporting from nearly 30 years ago? The simple answer is that they don't want to let go: they want to be the victims, they want to be aggrieved and they revel in that self-perceived status.

I wonder if there will come a time when Scousers are officially designated as 'ethnic minorities'. I'm sure they would embrace such a move, especially if it gave them certain privileges regarding housing. I don't much care for Liverpool, its football, or its people. It is a benighted city.

Merseyrail is OK. I did my first significant section in February last year, and completed the network in December.

Pulpstar said:

AndyJS said:

One of the most bizarre things I've ever done was buy a ticket to Pyongyang at a train station in South Korea next to the border with North Korea.

Did you go, or just for posterity ?

Just wanted bragging rights over Sunil?

Jason said:

david_herdson said:

Sandpit said:

tlg86 said:

@Sandpit - do you think Scousers are above criticism? MacKenzie's comments are crass and unfunny, but I think they are unfair on gorillas - not Barkley. And at what point will Liverpool fans let Hillsborough rest? The rest of us don't bang on about what happened four year's earlier. Thirty nine people lost their lives and supporters of the following clubs missed out on European football:

Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd, Coventry, Wimbledon, Tottenham, Southampton, Norwich, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Oxford, Nottingham Forest, Luton Town and Derby County

I'm a Liverpool fan so undoubtedly biased, but McKenzie saying what he said on the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is pouring oil on the fire. I can't imagine the date somehow escaped him as he wrote the piece.

Hysel was unacceptable, but was at a time when stadium riots weren't particularly uncommon and all football clubs were infiltrated by organised hooligans. Wait until the Russian World Cup to see how other countries have failed to deal with the problem as well as the British authorities did.

With respect, that's a pathetic response that seeks to evade responsibility because others were doing it and some still are doing it. Yes, they were and they are (and Liverpool did more than their own fair share beyond Heysal), and for that matter, UEFA and others have responsibilities for choosing an inappropriate and unsafe ground. But the primary responsibility for those deaths lies with the fans of Liverpool FC.

When the club later played Juventus, Liverpool wanted and expected reconciliation. If they can expect that from a club which had every right to bear a deep and lasting scar against Liverpool, why can they not let go of a shoddy piece of reporting from nearly 30 years ago? The simple answer is that they don't want to let go: they want to be the victims, they want to be aggrieved and they revel in that self-perceived status.

I wonder if there will come a time when Scousers are officially designated as 'ethnic minorities'. I'm sure they would embrace such a move, especially if it gave them certain privileges regarding housing. I don't much care for Liverpool, its football, or its people. It is a benighted city.

Merseyside now has the Labour voting dominance of an ethnic minority.

rottenborough said:

Blimey. We may not make Easter Monday.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/853003860759240705

We will be ok. I rather fear for our friends in Seoul though. Scary times.

foxinsoxuk said:

Pulpstar said:

AndyJS said:

One of the most bizarre things I've ever done was buy a ticket to Pyongyang at a train station in South Korea next to the border with North Korea.

Did you go, or just for posterity ?

Just wanted bragging rights over Sunil?

There is one section of track in Merseyside (as defined in 1974) I haven't done yet - Bidston to Neston, operated by Arriva Trains Wales.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

rottenborough said:

Blimey. We may not make Easter Monday.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/853003860759240705

Isn't tomorrow the big celebration in North Korea when Kim is expected to do something dramatic

Puts the FR elections somewhat in the shade.

Sandpit said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

The Chinese seem to have mobilised a fair number of troops to the border:


http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-troop-movement-north-korea-border-2017-4?r=US&IR=T

Airspace over North Korea is empty on flight tracker too.

Public internet flight trackers rely on people with aircraft radios connected to the internet in a massive crowdsourcing operation. I'd say there's not many of them in NK.

I reckon that if NK tests another nuke, someone is going to take out all their radar and artillery near the border that's pointed at Seoul.

That would be an awful lot of artillery. Personally, I'd expect to see missile-related sites, including the R&D locations, and perhaps some sites personally important to Kim, taken out, rather than focusing on small-ticket items, like artillery.

Now, if the DPRK start firing those artillery at Seoul, then expect all sorts of specialized munitions to be deployed to take them out.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

Wasn't there a scare in 1983, when the Soviets thought the Americans were launching an attack, but later found out it was a false alarm

Yes, there were several during the Cold War, of which Cuba was the most famous but which made the generals and politicians on both sides rather nervous. There was a rumour that a US President authorised a nuke strike while drunk, and after a lot of phone calls it was called off when someone important enough to do so threatened the use of the 25th Amendment.

DanSmith said:

rottenborough said:

Blimey. We may not make Easter Monday.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/853003860759240705

We will be ok. I rather fear for our friends in Seoul though. Scary times.

We may be a long way away but the markets are not and the uncertainty may well cause problems across the globe

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

The Chinese seem to have mobilised a fair number of troops to the border:


http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-troop-movement-north-korea-border-2017-4?r=US&IR=T

Airspace over North Korea is empty on flight tracker too.

LOL - do you think much air traffic passes over North Korea?

It's about time an American president stood up to North Korea IMO. Enough is enough. Most of their supposed weaponry is probably fantasy.

Floater said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

The Chinese seem to have mobilised a fair number of troops to the border:


http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-troop-movement-north-korea-border-2017-4?r=US&IR=T

Airspace over North Korea is empty on flight tracker too.

LOL - do you think much air traffic passes over North Korea?

Not much is even going close at the moment.

Floater said:

kle4 said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

Rule #2 of PB - never keep perspective

(Rule #1 is AV is interesting, Rule #3 is subsamples can be trusted, and Rule #4 is SCON is always about to surge, and so on and so forth)

/isn't rule 1 - tories are always right?

What about "PB Tories always learn"?

Sandpit said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SeanT said:

Floater said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SeanT said:

We are rapidly headed to something like the Cuban Missile crisis. Obviously not as apocalyptic - North Korea can't wipe anyone out - but eeeek, nonetheless.

I think, regretably, we are there already. I remember the Cuban missile crisis like yesterday and we were all very worried and even scared

This is nothing like the Cuban crisis - lets all try to keep a sense of perspective here.

How boring if we all kept a sense of bloody perspective. Boo.

Besides, I think this probably is the closest we've been to seeing a nuke dropped, since Cuba. That's no small thing.

Wasn't there a scare in 1983, when the Soviets thought the Americans were launching an attack, but later found out it was a false alarm

Yes, there were several during the Cold War, of which Cuba was the most famous but which made the generals and politicians on both sides rather nervous. There was a rumour that a US President authorised a nuke strike while drunk, and after a lot of phone calls it was called off when someone important enough to do so threatened the use of the 25th Amendment.

Hah! It was the President I suspected, based on your post.

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/853010980942618624

nunu said:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/853010980942618624

Seems like the British rust-belt is starting to imitate the American in lots of ways, including drug addiction. Worrying, but maybe not surprising.