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Ipsos MORI
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Comments
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Have Ipsos Mori done a similar one for Brexit ?0
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Second like Britain. Or China.0
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Third, like Moldova in the Taekwondo. We sort of hope.
(Although Aaron Cook's story is certainly one of the plucky Brit underdog fighting against the system.)0 -
FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?0
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No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.0 -
Yes and no, people who are sick in the head are more likely to be attracted to sick ideology that instructs them to kill people. Though I'm not sure that calling probable terrorism something else is a good idea. I have read the information black out arguments, but when the government lies to the people or there is a perception they are being less than truthful then it can lead to the rise of parties like the FN or UKIP, who won't adhere to such sensitivities.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
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But he is definitely a nutter....probably known locally as Dave.SeanT said:One extraordinary line in that Daily Mail article speaks for itself
"A source told French station BFMTV that terrorism has been ruled out, however they are unsure of the man's motive"
Its amazing how the authorities can make some immediate statements about difficult and complex issues with such certainty and others not.0 -
From now on a murder will only be counted as terrorism if the authorities receive a notarised letter from the head of IS or Al-Qaeda confirming the attackers standing membership of said organisation. Any statements, flags, chants, past actions or criminal convictions will count for nothing.0
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No I think you are misunderstanding me again. I think we are in a terrible place, I am very pessimistic about it, and some of the attacks (Bataclan, Nice, 7/7, 911) are obviously terrorism, but not every single attack inspired by religion isSeanT said:MontyHall:
"Such blurred lines nowadays its tricky to define either way really. I don't think we can say every attack by a muslim shouting muslim stuff is "terrorism" though can we? Religious hatred maybe a better term.
Calling it terrorism when its lone wolf seems over the top, plus it gives apologists the chance to pretend its nothing to worry about by lefty style mocking attempts at ironic humour"
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So we must clearly lie to the people, and indulge in a bizarre and collective act of denial, lest we give lefty comics the chance to fashion some ironic humour?
That's the main worry now. Ironic humour from Mark Steel or Bill Bailey. Not terror. No. Bill Bailey.
In the 80s there were terrorist attacks from the IRA, and there were fights in London pubs between Irishmen and Englishmen, but not both were terrorism.
Maybe I am not making myself clear, but if there were no ISIS, Al Qaeda etc, there would still be these religious assaults, and they wouldn't be called terrorism. But because there is ISIS, we call them terrorism if you get my drift. We suspect they only occur because of ISIS, but I think they would occur anyway0 -
Not good enough, need a second signature, plus recent utility bill and copy of passport from said ISIS officials.glw said:From now on a murder will only be counted as terrorism if the authorities receive a notarised letter from the head of IS or Al-Qaeda confirming the attackers standing membership of said organisation. Any statements, flags, chants, past actions or criminal convictions will count for nothing.
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''Its amazing how the authorities can make some immediate statements about difficult and complex issues with such certainty and others not. ''
It's interesting that in the eyes of some the alleged killer of Jo Cox was not a 'lone nutter' but a person motivated by the atmosphere created by the leave campaign.0 -
Anti-terrorist advice - ensure you make regular backups of your phone!TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.0 -
They would still occur anyway amongst the followers of a specific religion because...?MontyHall said:
Maybe I am not making myself clear, but if there were no ISIS, Al Qaeda etc, there would still be these religious assaults, and they wouldn't be called terrorism. But because there is ISIS, we call them terrorism if you get my drift. We suspect they only occur because of ISIS, but I think they would occur anyway0 -
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.0 -
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
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The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.0 -
FFS you're all being idiots. The precise point of terrorism, its sole value as it word, is that it must not be defined, allowing its use as high-value transferable negative particle for denigrating those we wish to destroy.0
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Yes maybe I am just being pedantic. I am certainly not trying to say all is well and Islam is a religion of peace etc.williamglenn said:
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
I actually think the lone wolf attacks that aren't organised by terror groups, the ones that I would call Religious Hatred rather than terrorism could be more worrying than ISIS as we will probably destroy that group. When I said it is "life" rather than "terrorism" I wasn't saying that in a good way, I think its a disaster.0 -
Afternoon all.
Must be the liquid lunch or something, but can’t make head nor tail of the thread. What does it represent? - TIA.
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The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
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The terror attacks embolden the religious bigots and psycopaths. They all feed off each other. I get the point you are making, though. These attacks occured before the terrorism we are now living through.MontyHall said:
Yes maybe I am just being pedantic. I am certainly not trying to say all is well and Islam is a religion of peace etc.williamglenn said:
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
I actually think the lone wolf attacks that aren't organised by terror groups, the ones that I would call Religious Hatred rather than terrorism could be more worrying than ISIS as we will probably destroy that group. When I said it is "life" rather than "terrorism" I wasn't saying that in a good way, I think its a disaster.
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The Ipsos Mori table on top is how country voted in the 2015 General election.SimonStClare said:Afternoon all.
Must be the liquid lunch or something, but can’t make head nor tail of the thread. What does it represent? - TIA.
The table below is the make up the voters in the Labour leadership election last year.0 -
Terror: 'This is a strong type of fear that happens when something bad is happening, but you can't see the cause of it or understand what is happening. It is intense, painful, and a constant torment. Terror is the emotion you feel when you're running from something chasing you in a nightmare, or that a protagonist in a horror series might feel if they're aware the monster's around, but not sure where. Terror is related to words like panic, torment, fear (if strong), paranoia, dread (if strong), scare, and fright. Use words like these if your protagonist is experiencing something frightening, but cannot understand or see the cause of it.'
It bugs me that the word has been coopted to mean violence linked to a political or religous motive
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The Krauts have a plan.
http://www.dw.com/en/german-interior-ministers-call-for-partial-burqa-ban/a-194873760 -
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.MaxPB said:
The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.0 -
If memory serves there was a legal definition set down in an Act of Parliament. I think it went something along the lines of "The use or threat of use of violence to achieve a political goal". There might have been a bit more to it than that but I think I have got the essentials.Pulpstar said:Terror: 'This is a strong type of fear that happens when something bad is happening, but you can't see the cause of it or understand what is happening. It is intense, painful, and a constant torment. Terror is the emotion you feel when you're running from something chasing you in a nightmare, or that a protagonist in a horror series might feel if they're aware the monster's around, but not sure where. Terror is related to words like panic, torment, fear (if strong), paranoia, dread (if strong), scare, and fright. Use words like these if your protagonist is experiencing something frightening, but cannot understand or see the cause of it.'
It bugs me that the word has been coopted to mean violence linked to a political or religous motive
That definition was drafted in the times of PIRA and terrorism linked to Ireland but it probably holds good for the people we now have to contend with. The essence seems to be the motivation, they why not the what.0 -
just when you think peak guardian has already been reached:
"Here was the football equivalent of the post-modern classic that begins: “You are about to begin reading Italo Calvino’s new novel, If on a Winter’s Night a Traveller …” The message from Arsène Wenger’s Arsenal was that their followers were about to begin a new season of watching Arsène Wenger’s Arsenal, with everything that has come to mean since they last won the league 12 years ago."0 -
Maybe we should be encouraging Christians, agnostics, atheists and Jews in the Middle East to wander up to the nearest Mosque and blow themselves up.SeanT said:
Perhaps.williamglenn said:
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
The trouble is, ISIS have explicitly called for lone wolf attacks, as part of their global terror strategy. Solitary nutters are what they WANT, as these guys could turn on us any time, any place: increasing the terror quotient.
Perhaps we could call the bigger plots "direct terrorism", and the small scale attacks "religious terror"? Given that the knifeman in Strasbourg shouted Allahu Akhbar it is difficult to *rule out* a religious element.
The problem is that - without the promise of an afterlife - what's in it for the atheists, agnostics and Jews?0 -
Mr Dancer, you were right yesterday when you said the most absurd event in the Olympics is the race walking. Three hours of desparately trying not to run is just silly!0
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Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business0 -
Personally I see a hijab as religous freedom of expression (In the same way as a jewish skull cap, sikh turban or christian cross on a chain), but a niqab/burka as one of oppression/security risk.John_M said:The Krauts have a plan.
http://www.dw.com/en/german-interior-ministers-call-for-partial-burqa-ban/a-194873760 -
Is believing in a religion now judged to be a mental illness?glw said:From now on a murder will only be counted as terrorism if the authorities receive a notarised letter from the head of IS or Al-Qaeda confirming the attackers standing membership of said organisation. Any statements, flags, chants, past actions or criminal convictions will count for nothing.
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Why not have mandatory topless bathing for all beaches?John_M said:The Krauts have a plan.
http://www.dw.com/en/german-interior-ministers-call-for-partial-burqa-ban/a-19487376
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Race walkers walk at an astounding pace, a sub 40 minute 10k is good going even whilst running !Sandpit said:Mr Dancer, you were right yesterday when you said the most absurd event in the Olympics is the race walking. Three hours of desparately trying not to run is just silly!
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Well at least they won't be plagued by lots of incompetent virgins.rcs1000 said:
Maybe we should be encouraging Christians, agnostics, atheists and Jews in the Middle East to wander up to the nearest Mosque and blow themselves up.SeanT said:
Perhaps.williamglenn said:
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
The trouble is, ISIS have explicitly called for lone wolf attacks, as part of their global terror strategy. Solitary nutters are what they WANT, as these guys could turn on us any time, any place: increasing the terror quotient.
Perhaps we could call the bigger plots "direct terrorism", and the small scale attacks "religious terror"? Given that the knifeman in Strasbourg shouted Allahu Akhbar it is difficult to *rule out* a religious element.
The problem is that - without the promise of an afterlife - what's in it for the atheists, agnostics and Jews?0 -
Well...TCPoliticalBetting said:
Is believing in a religion now judged to be a mental illness?glw said:From now on a murder will only be counted as terrorism if the authorities receive a notarised letter from the head of IS or Al-Qaeda confirming the attackers standing membership of said organisation. Any statements, flags, chants, past actions or criminal convictions will count for nothing.
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I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business0 -
On a lighter note, given that the Queen is still head of state in Jamaica, can she award Using Bolt with a Knighthood? He definitely deserves one, 8 or 9 gold medals is an amazing achievement.0
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Good.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business0 -
Author, Nicolas Véron, is a senior fellow at Bruegel in Brussels which he co-founded. Bruegel is funded by EU member states etc.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Why would he forecast a rosy future outside the EU?
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London, 22 matches; Britain 2 matches, England 2 matches.MaxPB said:
I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Probably a good indication of why brexit occurred...
Addendum: Why is it that our gdp per cap is a fair chunk lower than Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - even though we have 'London'.
Perhaps the economy will be rebalanced with Brexit, it is my big hope - even though it is a net loss overall.0 -
Have momentum had an effect for councillor candidate selections yet?SouthamObserver said:
The terror attacks embolden the religious bigots and psycopaths. They all feed off each other. I get the point you are making, though. These attacks occured before the terrorism we are now living through.MontyHall said:
Yes maybe I am just being pedantic. I am certainly not trying to say all is well and Islam is a religion of peace etc.williamglenn said:
I think Monty's objection is the level of organisation involved in a terrorist plot versus a lone wolf. In which case the obvious answer is to add the qualifier 'organised terrorism' when talking about the IRA, Al Qaeda, etc.SeanT said:Perhaps we should call it *religious terrorism*? Does that work?
I actually think the lone wolf attacks that aren't organised by terror groups, the ones that I would call Religious Hatred rather than terrorism could be more worrying than ISIS as we will probably destroy that group. When I said it is "life" rather than "terrorism" I wasn't saying that in a good way, I think its a disaster.0 -
Manafort has resigned as Trump's campaign chair.0
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Look, Scott isn't here. I'm just helping him out. I only work here, I don't make the rules.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Author, Nicolas Véron, is a senior fellow at Bruegel in Brussels which he co-founded. Bruegel is funded by EU member states etc.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Why would he forecast a rosy future outside the EU?0 -
It's not an illness, per se. More a chronic condition.Pulpstar said:
Well...TCPoliticalBetting said:
Is believing in a religion now judged to be a mental illness?glw said:From now on a murder will only be counted as terrorism if the authorities receive a notarised letter from the head of IS or Al-Qaeda confirming the attackers standing membership of said organisation. Any statements, flags, chants, past actions or criminal convictions will count for nothing.
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Just laid Trump @ 5.10
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I initially thought that this was from Pasty Scott as it was the usual blinkered guff from a left leaning publication. Some might call it vapid bilge.John_M said:
Look, Scott isn't here. I'm just helping him out. I only work here, I don't make the rules.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Author, Nicolas Véron, is a senior fellow at Bruegel in Brussels which he co-founded. Bruegel is funded by EU member states etc.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Why would he forecast a rosy future outside the EU?
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Indeed.Pulpstar said:
London, 22 matches; Britain 2 matches, England 2 matches.MaxPB said:
I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Probably a good indication of why brexit occurred...
Addendum: Why is it that our gdp per cap is a fair chunk lower than Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - even though we have 'London'.
Perhaps the economy will be rebalanced with Brexit, it is my big hope - even though it is a net loss overall.
I'd guess that it is because we lack a middle manufacturing sector. We're decent at the lower end and excellent at the top, but do very little in between. People who have better skills than basic manufacturing but are not properly qualified to work on building fighter jets or luxury sports cars have very little to move up to which causes wages to stagnate. Indeed, we import a lot of our semi-manufactured goods from the nations you mention. Its something that needs addressing, and soon IMO.0 -
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.0 -
Is that good or bad for Trump?AramintaMoonbeamQC said:Manafort has resigned as Trump's campaign chair.
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The problem is this: if I choose to cover my head going down the street - just as if I wish to ban breastfeeding in my restaurant - surely that is my concern.Sandpit said:
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.MaxPB said:
The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
And do you really want to give the government the power to choose which religious meetings it considers appropriate?
Paul_Bedfordshire made the point more articulately than me a few days ago: these powers that you give the government when it's your guys in control look scary when it's Jeremy Corbyn in power.0 -
Indeed, it's a clear attempt to muddy the water. "If we're going to stay in the EEA, then why bother leaving at all", is what I've heard being repeated in City circles.Casino_Royale said:
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.0 -
The Germans have a good balance, the French go too far.rcs1000 said:
The problem is this: if I choose to cover my head going down the street - just as if I wish to ban breastfeeding in my restaurant - surely that is my concern.Sandpit said:
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.MaxPB said:
The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
And do you really want to give the government the power to choose which religious meetings it considers appropriate?
Paul_Bedfordshire made the point more articulately than me a few days ago: these powers that you give the government when it's your guys in control look scary when it's Jeremy Corbyn in power.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/19/europe/germany-veil-ban/index.html0 -
Wittering on about burqas is classic displacement activity.rcs1000 said:
The problem is this: if I choose to cover my head going down the street - just as if I wish to ban breastfeeding in my restaurant - surely that is my concern.Sandpit said:
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.MaxPB said:
The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
Both are going to hurt me the same, though I do love my phone and would struggle without it.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
And do you really want to give the government the power to choose which religious meetings it considers appropriate?
Paul_Bedfordshire made the point more articulately than me a few days ago: these powers that you give the government when it's your guys in control look scary when it's Jeremy Corbyn in power.
We are dealing with a new phenomenon where some portion of our Muslim immigrants are becoming less, not more, integrated. There are no glib answers to this issue. I think Mr Bedfordshire and Ms Cyclefree have articulated some good ideas, as you say.0 -
Hard to say - Manafort was a hugely experienced lobbyist/consultant but has been outed as having substantial links with Ukrainian and Russian politics, which was less than desirable for the Trump campaign.ToryJim said:
Is that good or bad for Trump?AramintaMoonbeamQC said:Manafort has resigned as Trump's campaign chair.
0 -
There's the old quip that Prussia was an army in possession of a state, rather than the other way round. Substitute 'financial sector' and 'UK'.Casino_Royale said:
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.
If this narrative about the City is correct, it should be seen as a huge strategic weakness that must be addressed. We have seen what happens with banks that are too big to fail. It's even worse if that applies to an entire sector.
I agree with your interpretation of the general line, but I think it shows how dangerously ill-balanced the UK economy is, despite much talk of 'rebalancing'.0 -
In that Prospect article we have the following sentence.
"To be sure, London is set to remain the largest financial centre in EMEA for the foreseeable future. It is currently so dominant that it will presumably take a very long time for any of its regional competitors to surpass it."
I mean, WTF. The City is declining. Possibly. At some time in the future. In a galaxy far, far away.
0 -
John_M said:rcs1000 said:Sandpit said:
Their not even immigrants anymore we are talking about third generation Britons feeling no affinity to Britain at all.MaxPB said:
Wittering on about burqas is classic displacement activity.williamglenn said:
The problem is this: if I choose to cover my head going down the street - just as if I wish to ban breastfeeding in my restaurant - surely that is my concern.MaxPB said:
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
No. Is the same principle as if someone kicks me in the head to steal my phone or if someone kicks me in the head because I look like a Muslim.Pulpstar said:FPT: Is being murdered by a terrorist worse than being murdered by a regular murderer ?
overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
And do you really want to give the government the power to choose which religious meetings it considers appropriate?
Paul_Bedfordshire made the point more articulately than me a few days ago: these powers that you give the government when it's your guys in control look scary when it's Jeremy Corbyn in power.
We are dealing with a new phenomenon where some portion of our Muslim immigrants are becoming less, not more, integrated. There are no glib answers to this issue. I think Mr Bedfordshire and Ms Cyclefree have articulated some good ideas, as you say.0 -
The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia wrote a long detailed report in 2014 on the rise in attacks on Jews across countries in the EU. There were a variety of perpetrators but the single biggest group responsible for attacks was Muslims. There have been similar reports since then in Germany and France and elsewhere. An uncomfortable fact for all those thinking that one can lump together all minority groups as oppressed victims. Or that being a victim somehow makes it impossible for one also to be a perpetrator.
This may not be terrorism in the conventional sense but for those who are the victims of it it is certainly terror, a sort of low level terror, worrying about being out in public while wearing items denoting their religion or worrying about security at schools or places of worship etc.
I never saw guards outside Jewish schools or places of culture or synagogues when I was growing up in North London. I do now. This is not a development for the better. The virus of anti-Semitism was never eliminated from Europe, even after the end of the war when all could see what such hatred could lead to. It has, I'm afraid, been given rocket boosters by the increase in the Muslim population in Western Europe and our craven refusal to confront and call out what Mehdi Hasan called in 2013 "our dirty little secret. You could call it the banality of Muslim anti-Semitism."0 -
@JohnM - I think at some point public opinion will catch up with taking further cultural measures against Islamic fundamentalism and, like Brexit, they will probably do so before our political masters.
However you cut it, wearing full face veils is an issue. Yes, I know, Balaclavas, motorcycle helmets and grown-ups dressed as a giant Mickey Mouse but the big issue here is a cultural schism on our doorstep where some women are totally cut-off from our mainstream life.
A line has to be drawn and I'd say that line is at fully covering all of your face in public as a matter of religion, which is against the most natural and human way of communicating, and a cultural choice (not a religious one) and in no way incompatible with Islam.0 -
And we can't ignore our education system. That's been shitty too. We turn out too many people with A Levels in Media Studies, and two two few people with the skills needed to work in manufacturing businesses.MaxPB said:
Indeed.Pulpstar said:
London, 22 matches; Britain 2 matches, England 2 matches.MaxPB said:
I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Probably a good indication of why brexit occurred...
Addendum: Why is it that our gdp per cap is a fair chunk lower than Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - even though we have 'London'.
Perhaps the economy will be rebalanced with Brexit, it is my big hope - even though it is a net loss overall.
I'd guess that it is because we lack a middle manufacturing sector. We're decent at the lower end and excellent at the top, but do very little in between. People who have better skills than basic manufacturing but are not properly qualified to work on building fighter jets or luxury sports cars have very little to move up to which causes wages to stagnate. Indeed, we import a lot of our semi-manufactured goods from the nations you mention. Its something that needs addressing, and soon IMO.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.0
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Banning breastfeeding in your restaurant isn't just your concern; it's a matter of potential discrimination against customers.rcs1000 said:
The problem is this: if I choose to cover my head going down the street - just as if I wish to ban breastfeeding in my restaurant - surely that is my concern.Sandpit said:
Good luck getting any of that past the paracitical 'human rights' courts, that seem to thrive on tolerating the intolerant these days.MaxPB said:
The Anjem Choudary problem. Nothing that would be politically viable can be done. The solution has always been to make it difficult to be a fundamentalist in the UK. Ban halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, close any mosque receiving funds from overseas or linked to radical preachers, close all Islamic schools and even the equivalent of Sunday school, ban the burka etc... It's not an easy path, but eventually enough people who want to live a fundamentalist lifestyle which is incompatible with our secular values would choose to leave the country and move to one where it is acceptable to live in the manner they want.williamglenn said:
The scarier form of religious hatred is that which comes from good education plus fanatical belief. How do you combat that?MaxPB said:
The result may be the same, but the motivation is different. Petty theft and religious hatred have a different set of motivations and origins. One comes from poverty, the other from poor education plus radicalisation. In order to combat both we cannot apply the same solutions. That's what the solution is, prevention.
As I said, the political will to do it doesn't exist and in the short to medium term it would create a lot of animosity and probably increase terrorist attacks.
And do you really want to give the government the power to choose which religious meetings it considers appropriate?
Paul_Bedfordshire made the point more articulately than me a few days ago: these powers that you give the government when it's your guys in control look scary when it's Jeremy Corbyn in power.
On clothing, I don't see why anyone covering the top of their head (or not) should matter to anyone and it's certainly not something the state should be involved in other than where there are genuine health and safety grounds (e.g. construction sites). Covering the face, on the other hand, is a different matter because as well as frequently being a tool of oppression, it also directly interferes with social interaction and literally places a division that should not exist between an individual and society at large.0 -
''However you cut it, wearing full face veils is an issue. ''
Its like wearing a brownshirt. Yes, its just a brown shirt. But it isn't.0 -
That's been my view all along. The EEA option seems to be the worst of both worlds. It's not even necessarily good for the City, given that we'd be heavily saddled with EU financial regulation over which we had no say.MaxPB said:Indeed, it's a clear attempt to muddy the water. "If we're going to stay in the EEA, then why bother leaving at all", is what I've heard being repeated in City circles.
Meanwhile, some interesting speculation on the Article 50 trigger date
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-19/u-k-said-to-see-brexit-most-likely-triggered-by-april-next-year
No 10 have denied the story, though.0 -
I think that's beginning to change now that fees are so high. I know a couple of my distant relatives are eschewing university, one had an apprenticeship with McLaren automotive in their production division. He's Indian as well so you can imagine the reaction from the extended family!rcs1000 said:
And we can't ignore our education system. That's been shitty too. We turn out too many people with A Levels in Media Studies, and two two few people with the skills needed to work in manufacturing businesses.MaxPB said:
Indeed.Pulpstar said:
London, 22 matches; Britain 2 matches, England 2 matches.MaxPB said:
I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Probably a good indication of why brexit occurred...
Addendum: Why is it that our gdp per cap is a fair chunk lower than Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - even though we have 'London'.
Perhaps the economy will be rebalanced with Brexit, it is my big hope - even though it is a net loss overall.
I'd guess that it is because we lack a middle manufacturing sector. We're decent at the lower end and excellent at the top, but do very little in between. People who have better skills than basic manufacturing but are not properly qualified to work on building fighter jets or luxury sports cars have very little to move up to which causes wages to stagnate. Indeed, we import a lot of our semi-manufactured goods from the nations you mention. Its something that needs addressing, and soon IMO.0 -
A sober article as far as I can tell. Without any particular knowledge of the financial market in the UK, it seems plausible that the business which is in London because it's the regional centre for Europe will split from the business that is in London because it is the global centre of excellence for that product. And that the first type of business is at risk of drifting away from London to the EU because that's the market that's buying, as with anything else you might buy and sell. There doesn't appear to be any reason for "global centre of excellence" trade to increase just because "regional centre" business falls off. That being the case, there will be a decline. It's just a question of how much.Casino_Royale said:
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.
Unless there are specific reasons to believe otherwise?0 -
And you would never want to muddy the water would you, Richard!Richard_Nabavi said:
That's been my view all along. The EEA option seems to be the worst of both worlds. It's not even necessarily good for the City, given that we'd be heavily saddled with EU financial regulation over which we had no say.MaxPB said:Indeed, it's a clear attempt to muddy the water. "If we're going to stay in the EEA, then why bother leaving at all", is what I've heard being repeated in City circles.
Meanwhile, some interesting speculation on the Article 50 trigger date
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-19/u-k-said-to-see-brexit-most-likely-triggered-by-april-next-year
No 10 have denied the story, though. 0 -
''Covering the face, on the other hand, is a different matter because as well as frequently being a tool of oppression.''
After (presumably muslim?) women in Syria burned their face veils when ISIS left, its quite clear that this is an extremist political garment and should be banned in public.0 -
No, I like my water crystal-clear!MaxPB said:
And you would never want to muddy the water would you, Richard!Richard_Nabavi said:
That's been my view all along. The EEA option seems to be the worst of both worlds. It's not even necessarily good for the City, given that we'd be heavily saddled with EU financial regulation over which we had no say.MaxPB said:Indeed, it's a clear attempt to muddy the water. "If we're going to stay in the EEA, then why bother leaving at all", is what I've heard being repeated in City circles.
Meanwhile, some interesting speculation on the Article 50 trigger date
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-19/u-k-said-to-see-brexit-most-likely-triggered-by-april-next-year
No 10 have denied the story, though.0 -
If women are being forced to wear it, that's an issue.taffys said:''Covering the face, on the other hand, is a different matter because as well as frequently being a tool of oppression.''
After (presumably muslim?) women in Syria burned their face veils when ISIS left, its quite clear that this is an extremist political garment and should be banned in public.
If it's a women's free choice to wear it, and they are always choosing to do so in our society, then that's also an issue.0 -
An establishment should have the right to ban such activities if it wishes to.david_herdson said:Banning breastfeeding in your restaurant isn't just your concern; it's a matter of potential discrimination against customers.
0 -
Does the same principle apply to feminists burning their bras?taffys said:''Covering the face, on the other hand, is a different matter because as well as frequently being a tool of oppression.''
After (presumably muslim?) women in Syria burned their face veils when ISIS left, its quite clear that this is an extremist political garment and should be banned in public.0 -
In the long run, I can't think of any economic bloc that had its financial centre outside its borders.taffys said:In that Prospect article we have the following sentence.
"To be sure, London is set to remain the largest financial centre in EMEA for the foreseeable future. It is currently so dominant that it will presumably take a very long time for any of its regional competitors to surpass it."
I mean, WTF. The City is declining. Possibly. At some time in the future. In a galaxy far, far away.
The truth is that governments can, by petty meddling, move where the bulk of financial work takes place. Euro clearing is one part of that. Stricter requirements on funds who are domiciled in Luxemburg but managed in London is another. Requiring that primary government bond dealers are located inside the area that issues them is another. And, of course, the biggest tickets in financial services - those that come from the privatisation of state assets - will never be outsourced to something outside the bloc.
We'd be very naive if we thought the EU was not going to be protectionist regarding where the bulk of financial markets work ends up.
This is not the end of the City. We will adapt. But Europe is likely to end up with a much more fragmented place; there will be more investment bankers in Dublin, Frankfurt and Paris than previously.0 -
Given Medhi's views - he's not my voice of reason. I see this video no longer pops up via YouTubeCyclefree said:The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia wrote a long detailed report in 2014 on the rise in attacks on Jews across countries in the EU. There were a variety of perpetrators but the single biggest group responsible for attacks was Muslims. There have been similar reports since then in Germany and France and elsewhere. An uncomfortable fact for all those thinking that one can lump together all minority groups as oppressed victims. Or that being a victim somehow makes it impossible for one also to be a perpetrator.
This may not be terrorism in the conventional sense but for those who are the victims of it it is certainly terror, a sort of low level terror, worrying about being out in public while wearing items denoting their religion or worrying about security at schools or places of worship etc.
I never saw guards outside Jewish schools or places of culture or synagogues when I was growing up in North London. I do now. This is not a development for the better. The virus of anti-Semitism was never eliminated from Europe, even after the end of the war when all could see what such hatred could lead to. It has, I'm afraid, been given rocket boosters by the increase in the Muslim population in Western Europe and our craven refusal to confront and call out what Mehdi Hasan called in 2013 "our dirty little secret. You could call it the banality of Muslim anti-Semitism."
https://archive.org/details/MehdiHasan_201601
0 -
Incidentally, here's a piece on woe, doom and death in the Medieval era:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/everyday-medieval-terrors.html0 -
just because it is Friday and you thought we all needed cheering up?Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, here's a piece on woe, doom and death in the Medieval era:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/everyday-medieval-terrors.html0 -
Miss Plato, disturbing that that video has been removed.0
-
Talking about demographic things?
https://twitter.com/EuropeDefence/status/766395824305795072
I concur.0 -
Is it walking?...really....is it....Pulpstar said:
Race walkers walk at an astounding pace, a sub 40 minute 10k is good going even whilst running !Sandpit said:Mr Dancer, you were right yesterday when you said the most absurd event in the Olympics is the race walking. Three hours of desparately trying not to run is just silly!
0 -
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Friday prayer timeIanB2 said:
just because it is Friday and you thought we all needed cheering up?Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, here's a piece on woe, doom and death in the Medieval era:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/everyday-medieval-terrors.html
0 -
As far as I'm concerned, if you want to wear Nazi uniforms in the street, or "Mohammed is a cock sucker" or whatever, that's up to you. It's not for the government to choose what forms of dress are acceptable.taffys said:''However you cut it, wearing full face veils is an issue. ''
Its like wearing a brownshirt. Yes, its just a brown shirt. But it isn't.0 -
So be it.rcs1000 said:
In the long run, I can't think of any economic bloc that had its financial centre outside its borders.taffys said:In that Prospect article we have the following sentence.
"To be sure, London is set to remain the largest financial centre in EMEA for the foreseeable future. It is currently so dominant that it will presumably take a very long time for any of its regional competitors to surpass it."
I mean, WTF. The City is declining. Possibly. At some time in the future. In a galaxy far, far away.
The truth is that governments can, by petty meddling, move where the bulk of financial work takes place. Euro clearing is one part of that. Stricter requirements on funds who are domiciled in Luxemburg but managed in London is another. Requiring that primary government bond dealers are located inside the area that issues them is another. And, of course, the biggest tickets in financial services - those that come from the privatisation of state assets - will never be outsourced to something outside the bloc.
We'd be very naive if we thought the EU was not going to be protectionist regarding where the bulk of financial markets work ends up.
This is not the end of the City. We will adapt. But Europe is likely to end up with a much more fragmented place; there will be more investment bankers in Dublin, Frankfurt and Paris than previously.0 -
Perhaps one factor is the low skills of a significant chunk of the UK workforce. One of the biggest factors for that in my experience is that UK management seem too often to regard training as a cost not as an investment and, as ever, are too often focused on the short term.MaxPB said:
Indeed.Pulpstar said:
London, 22 matches; Britain 2 matches, England 2 matches.MaxPB said:
I tried to get through it but failed. It read like the longest ever way of saying, "it's not fair, the beastly northerners were mean to us".John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
Probably a good indication of why brexit occurred...
Addendum: Why is it that our gdp per cap is a fair chunk lower than Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - even though we have 'London'.
Perhaps the economy will be rebalanced with Brexit, it is my big hope - even though it is a net loss overall.
I'd guess that it is because we lack a middle manufacturing sector. We're decent at the lower end and excellent at the top, but do very little in between. People who have better skills than basic manufacturing but are not properly qualified to work on building fighter jets or luxury sports cars have very little to move up to which causes wages to stagnate. Indeed, we import a lot of our semi-manufactured goods from the nations you mention. Its something that needs addressing, and soon IMO.
In a nutshell if the managers of UK companies can somehow be incentivised to look longer than their next bonus period, we might actually build a much more successful economy and a happier country.0 -
Absolutely my establishment, my rules*.tlg86 said:
An establishment should have the right to ban such activities if it wishes to.david_herdson said:Banning breastfeeding in your restaurant isn't just your concern; it's a matter of potential discrimination against customers.
* I draw the line at "No Irish, no blacks, no dogs", but "No philosophers, no PB commentators" is probably OK.0 -
It is and it isn't.rcs1000 said:
As far as I'm concerned, if you want to wear Nazi uniforms in the street, or "Mohammed is a cock sucker" or whatever, that's up to you. It's not for the government to choose what forms of dress are acceptable.taffys said:''However you cut it, wearing full face veils is an issue. ''
Its like wearing a brownshirt. Yes, its just a brown shirt. But it isn't.
If one person wore a Nazi uniform on the high street (and i expect his collar would be felt pretty soon anyway just for doing that) it can be shrugged off. If tens of thousands started doing it in cities and towns across Britain we'd probably expect the Government to take some action.
This isn't a black and white issue you can boil down exclusively to individual choice (if, indeed, it is such a choice) numbers, volume and social effects do come into play, and what that says about our society.0 -
''We'd be very naive if we thought the EU was not going to be protectionist regarding where the bulk of financial markets work ends up.''
Let's face it. They were going to do that anyway. The EU cannot abide the City, whether we are in or out if it.0 -
Look at what happened when the UK had a genuinely open door immigration policy.MikeK said:Talking about demographic things?
https://twitter.com/EuropeDefence/status/766395824305795072
I concur.0 -
And what's your counterargument?Casino_Royale said:
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.0 -
@Morris Dancer
"However, imagine a world where there’s not only no NHS, there are no antibiotics at all."
I don't have to imagine it Morris. This is the world I was born into and it got on pretty well. Mind you, there were kids without good shoes, or no shoes at all in East London. And for a few sixpences we followed the horses and collected their waste. Medically families were covered by private insurance companies for about a shilling a week. We survived and will survive even if modern civilizations collapse is total.0 -
''As far as I'm concerned, if you want to wear Nazi uniforms in the street, or "Mohammed is a cock sucker" or whatever, that's up to you. It's not for the government to choose what forms of dress are acceptable. ''
Well OK if you're going to allow all forms of political dress then fine. But in our current regime some forms of political dress are clearly more equal than others.
That T shirt gives you a criminal record.0 -
I don't agree leaving the single market would be a disaster and am increasingly relaxed about it.williamglenn said:
And what's your counterargument?Casino_Royale said:
A consistent narrative seems to be emerging from Remain advocates, now, which is that they respect the result, and we are leaving the EU, but leaving the single market would be a disaster, so should stay in the EEA, but this would be worse than staying in the EU because we wouldn't take back any control and might even be worse, so we should really leave the whole thing, which would be a disaster. Shame a 2nd referendum is off the cards for now.John_M said:Off topic: the City is doomed.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/capital-flight-london-economy-brexit-business
The line of attack of that argument is pretty clear to me.0 -
National - UPI/CVoter
Clinton 50 .. Trump 46
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/08/19/UPICVoter-poll-Hillary-Clinton-loses-two-points-to-Donald-Trump/6051471614583/?spt=sec&or=tn
National - NBC
Clinton 50 .. Trump 40
http://www.nbcnews.com/card/poll-clinton-leads-trump-10-points-n6338710 -
BritishMoldovan #1 out the kicking in PJs event.0 -
The burqa is a calculated up yours to Western society. It is a calculated two fingers to how we live and interact in Western society. And Western society is perfectly entitled to reply by saying that this is not how we do things round here on the old "When in Rome" principle. And if people can't or won't understand that, can't or won't understand that there are certain social/cultural norms that one should abide by (like, for instance, not walking naked down a street) then laws become necessary. But that is a failure because as others have said using laws to enforce good manners and commonly understood and shared assumptions is authoritarian. But that is what happens when you have people in a society who don't share basic assumptions or, bluntly, are determined to confront them, using only the most convenient aspect of a society they despise (tolerance - always interpreted in one way in their favour) to undermine the basis on which that tolerance developed in the first place.david_herdson said:
Banning breastfeeding in your restaurant isn't just your concern; it's a matter of potential discrimination against customers.rcs1000 said:
On clothing, I don't see why anyone covering the top of their head (or not) should matter to anyone and it's certainly not something the state should be involved in other than where there are genuine health and safety grounds (e.g. construction sites). Covering the face, on the other hand, is a different matter because as well as frequently being a tool of oppression, it also directly interferes with social interaction and literally places a division that should not exist between an individual and society at large.
It is no coincidence that the first thing religious bigots do when they get into power is to limit womens' freedoms. Control of clothing is one way of doing that. It's a point which an awful lot of men find hard to understand. I can remember the debates in the 1970s about trying to get it across to the police and others that how a woman was dressed was not some sort of excuse or justification for rape/assault. It was hard work getting people to realise that a woman's clothing should not be used to justify male misbehaviour. The burqa is the reverse of that: an assumption that a woman is somehow - by her dress - responsible for a man's behaviour, that a man is unable to control himself or be expected to behave in a civilised way and that women must be covered up to prevent incontinently lustful men from gazing on the possession of another.
0
This discussion has been closed.