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  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.

    He wanted his legacy to include securing the UK's place in Europe and killing off the issue for a generation. That was entirely noble, and probably achievable if he'd only got a bit more out of his negotiation and if Labour had a moderate likeable leader going all out to campaign for "Remain".
    Possibly. I'm beginning to wonder if the referendum was lost for Remain long before the renegotiation, that it was used as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by many voters to give an "Up Yours" to a way of governing that lots of people had been sotto voce grumbling about for years, a feeling that government (both British/EU) had become a conspiracy against the people rather than the servants of the people.

    Why do you think we chose to position ourselves on the right side of history?
    I think that sometimes the "little people", in their masses, have a better sense for the sweepingly big moments in history than the political elite.

    If in 20 - or better, 40 - years' time any of us are still alive and commenting on PB.com, I would be astonished if any of us would challenge the Wisdom of Sunderland, point at what the EU has become and declare but for one mad year, we would fit right in there.

    Was the referendum vote a grasping of Destiny, or a flailing F.U. by a long-failed populace? I don't know. But I do believe there is wisdom in them there crowds.
    I completely agree.

    It's far too easy for the country's leadership team to become divorced from the realities of life for normal people. It's hard work keeping your finger on the pulse, but worth doing.
    I think Tim T has posted some interesting stuff on the decision-making process and how taking lots of factors into account often requires an emotional, "gut" response rather than an analytical one. If he's listening in and has any reading suggestions along these lines, I'd be interested.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    They were just talking about Thatcher being made OM immediately post her resignation, and then Knight of Garter. Already maximum number in the Order of Merit, but there is one spare KG going.... :D

    The Queen was making a point re: Thatcher having to wait for the Garter. It's one of the few honours that is her personal gift.
    So is the Order of Merit!
    I know. But clearly lesser status than the OG
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,107

    FF43 said:



    I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.

    The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.

    That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.

    Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?
    That is not an entirely fair description of the EEA.
    As it currently stands, the EEA is like that. The reason why I ask the question is that I think there will some pressure to move quickly on this. Anything else is a bilateral arrangement and subject to a lot of uncertainty and probable delay. There would be a real debate and in that case I would ask whether divisions in the Conservative Party on Eaurope really have disappeared.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The UK has its first female prime minister since Wednesday 28th November 1990.
  • Bye bye EU, bye bye Cameron. Lets now declare Nigel Farage and UKIP as the most successful political insurgency in the Western world in the 21st Century.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,813
    Blurry pic of May curtseying for the queen - seemingly taken on the corgi's phone camera.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    Why is the new Prime Minister wearing a hi-viz bum-flap in that image of her with HM the Queen??
  • FF43 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist

    Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.
    I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting.

    What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
    It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.

    And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.

    It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.

    Discuss.........
    I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.

    The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.

    That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.
    Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?
    Thats a bit of an exaggeration (there are some free movement get outs in terms of benefits etc. and "emergency" measures not available in the EU and the EDJ wont be meddling in our affairs other than a proxy court on single market matters but...

    Yes. Sure I would love to get out of everything except EFTA but that would be mad and far too big a jump for the economy.

    Join ETFA/EEA and get whatever free movement concessions we can in return for higher annual fees per capita than Norway Danegeld. Wait a decade and if then we are powering ahead with bilateral trade with RoW sorted and an ever smaller percentage of our foreign trade with the single market then we consider demanding a renegiotiation in which we are prepared to walk away from EEA if we don't get what we want.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    AndyJS said:

    The UK has its first female prime minister since Wednesday 28th November 1990.

    Harriet must be thrilled...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,467

    Why is the new Prime Minister wearing a hi-viz bum-flap in that image of her with HM the Queen??

    Yes, it does seem a very odd kit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,034
    MikeL said:

    Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.

    Doesn't bare thinking about does it.

    84 MPs should be ashamed of themselves for voting for someone so completely unqualified.

    (Snip)
    But she was a leaver, which in the eyes of some matters more than truthfulness or competence.

    But it's all Murdoch's fault, not the fact that Leadsom proved herself incapable of conducting even one interview.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    RobD said:

    saddened said:

    why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?

    What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.
    Reliant Robin :D
    Brompton bicycle.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,541
    edited July 2016

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    As I remember it, Brown simply sprayed around a lot of money we didn't have a few months before the election and got a little bump in GDP as a result.

    In no real sense was the economy "recovering".
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,813

    AndyJS said:

    The UK has its first female prime minister since Wednesday 28th November 1990.

    Harriet must be thrilled...
    Great line in PMQs earlier from DC: 2-0 to the Tories in terms of women prime ministers and "not a pink bus in sight".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Why is the new Prime Minister wearing a hi-viz bum-flap in that image of her with HM the Queen??

    She's planning to squash the LibDems?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    Charles said:

    Why is the new Prime Minister wearing a hi-viz bum-flap in that image of her with HM the Queen??

    She's planning to squash the LibDems?
    Already done the deed, apparently!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,061
    The Prime Minister has resigned.

    Long Live the Prime Minister!
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2016
    Danny565 said:

    Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"

    Perhaps he'll now post on PB using his real name?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?

    Saxe-Coburg-Gotha ---> Windsor :lol:
    LOL

    should be a Rolls Royce then. German car built in Sussex.
    Built in Sussex? I think put together from parts manufactured all over would be a better description.

    Incidentally my brother-in-law who works at the site is very critical of the body presses and other bits that come from Germany. Says the quality is crap.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    Pong said:

    Danny565 said:

    Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"

    Perhaps he'll now post on PB using his real name?
    So long TSE....! :D
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Will we get the main offices of state today?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    MikeL said:

    Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.

    Doesn't bare thinking about does it.

    84 MPs should be ashamed of themselves for voting for someone so completely unqualified.

    (Snip)
    But she was a leaver, which in the eyes of some matters more than truthfulness or competence.

    But it's all Murdoch's fault, not the fact that Leadsom proved herself incapable of conducting even one interview.
    That's one habit we need to shed, pronto. Now the decision has been made, we need the most able, not the most ideological, to lead the way.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Incidentally most German opinion polls are showing around a 3% movement to Angela Merkel's CDU/CSU mostly away from AfD since the Brexit vote .
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,107

    FF43 said:


    I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.

    The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.

    That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.

    Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?
    Thats a bit of an exaggeration (there are some free movement get outs in terms of benefits etc. and "emergency" measures not available in the EU and the EDJ wont be meddling in our affairs other than a proxy court on single market matters but...

    Yes. Sure I would love to get out of everything except EFTA but that would be mad and far too big a jump for the economy.

    Join ETFA/EEA and get whatever free movement concessions we can in return for higher annual fees per capita than Norway Danegeld. Wait a decade and if then we are powering ahead with bilateral trade with RoW sorted and an ever smaller percentage of our foreign trade with the single market then we consider demanding a renegiotiation in which we are prepared to walk away from EEA if we don't get what we want.
    Sounds like a qualified Yes and a willingness to park the EU issue at least for a while.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    Pong said:

    Danny565 said:

    Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"

    Perhaps he'll now post on PB using his real name?
    I did wonder about the new poster "DaveDave" the other day.

    Good evening, former Prime Minister...
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    The Prime Minister has resigned.

    Long Live the Prime Minister!

    Is it too early to call for her resignation?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PM May about to leave for Downing Street to fire Michael Gove ....

    How satisfying is that .... :smile:
  • Jobabob said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist

    Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.
    I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.

    What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
    It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.

    And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.

    It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.

    Discuss.........
    I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.

    The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.

    That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.
    "That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now"

    Chuckle. I doubt it!
    Approximately nobody in the Tory party is going to advocate rejoining.
    It will become one of those things discussed earnestly every year at Libdem party conferences.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,467
    JackW said:

    PM May about to leave for Downing Street to fire Michael Gove ....

    How satisfying is that .... :smile:

    "And don't for a moment think you can keep the Great Seal of the Realm. Give it to me NOW!"
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,042

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,537

    why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?

    Saxe-Coburg-Gotha ---> Windsor :lol:
    LOL

    should be a Rolls Royce then. German car built in Sussex.
    Built in Sussex? I think put together from parts manufactured all over would be a better description.

    Incidentally my brother-in-law who works at the site is very critical of the body presses and other bits that come from Germany. Says the quality is crap.
    All cars are modular these days Mr L and made of bits from across the work. Nobody really manufactures cars these days ( except perhaps Morgan! ) they are assembled.

    As for body panels from memory RR make theirs in Dingolfing in Germany never really understood why, it must cost them a fortune to ship them over and there are loads of places in the UK could make them.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.

    Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum. :(
    Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.
    The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.
    People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.
    Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...
    What sort of EU?
    The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.
    I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!
    So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?
    It seems to me that everybody understood Cameron´s referendum question in their own particular way- some thought it meant more money for the NHS, or an end to EU immigration, others an end to third world immigration, others increased privileges for bankers and the City of London, others for abolition of environmental control and workers´rights. Whatever you like.

    And now that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Leadsome etc have all scarpered off, Mrs May is left trying to reconcile all these contradictions. She is doomed to failure, and will be remembered as the very worst prime minister ever.
  • AndyJS said:

    The Wikipedia editors have decided Theresa May has now been appointed PM.

    ANYONE is free to edit Wikipedia articles (as long as they haven't been locked), all you do is give away your IP address in the edit history.

    If you sign up to become an editor, then you can hide your IP address, and edit locked articles.
    or - unless you post something illegal or defamatory you just unplug your router and reboot it if you are posting from home and you get a new IP address with most service providers.

    Most ISPs use dynamic IP addresses which means you are basically anonymous unless you do something so grave that a formal request gets made to your ISP to crossreference their IP addresses at a particular time with the offensive communication.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,596
    We do these events so well...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
    Ah, the credit rating agencies which did so well in the last crash! :p
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,034
    John_M said:

    MikeL said:

    Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.

    Doesn't bare thinking about does it.

    84 MPs should be ashamed of themselves for voting for someone so completely unqualified.

    (Snip)
    But she was a leaver, which in the eyes of some matters more than truthfulness or competence.

    But it's all Murdoch's fault, not the fact that Leadsom proved herself incapable of conducting even one interview.
    That's one habit we need to shed, pronto. Now the decision has been made, we need the most able, not the most ideological, to lead the way.
    Indeed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.

    Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum. :(
    Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.
    The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.
    People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.
    Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...
    What sort of EU?
    The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.
    I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!
    So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?
    It seems to me that everybody understood Cameron´s referendum question in their own particular way- some thought it meant more money for the NHS, or an end to EU immigration, others an end to third world immigration, others increased privileges for bankers and the City of London, others for abolition of environmental control and workers´rights. Whatever you like.

    And now that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Leadsome etc have all scarpered off, Mrs May is left trying to reconcile all these contradictions. She is doomed to failure, and will be remembered as the very worst prime minister ever.
    LOL. Let's at least see her as PM before making such judgments.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.

    I expect the party faithful would be bigging up Leadsom and publicly wondering how Theresa May ever got on the ballot paper after single-handedly losing the referendum by failing to curb immigration. Likewise if Boris were the new PM, we'd be overwhelmed with Heineken similes and pictures of bikes and the Olympics. Everyone loves a winner.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cameron's final Tweet as custodian of the Number10gov feed:

    twitter.com/Number10gov/status/753192970015350784
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
    Lol. Does anyone still take ratings agencies seriously.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,382
    edited July 2016
    Huw Edwards just said Queen came to the throne in 1951.

    How can the BBC get such a basic thing wrong? Totally hopeless.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.

    Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum. :(
    Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.
    The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.
    People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.
    Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...
    What sort of EU?
    The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.
    I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!
    So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?
    It seems to me that everybody understood Cameron´s referendum question in their own particular way- some thought it meant more money for the NHS, or an end to EU immigration, others an end to third world immigration, others increased privileges for bankers and the City of London, others for abolition of environmental control and workers´rights. Whatever you like.

    And now that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Leadsome etc have all scarpered off, Mrs May is left trying to reconcile all these contradictions. She is doomed to failure, and will be remembered as the very worst prime minister ever.
    I think you're forgetting that the UK electorate just aren't ideological. I hate pigeonholing myself, but I probably lean Hannanite. However, I'm not going to die in a ditch if we went for an EEA-like option.

    Similarly, immigration just has to be demonstrably better controlled rather than reduced to zero. We're a phlegmatic bunch. We'll adapt to the new reality and get on with what's actually important; family, friends, community.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM

    The tragedy of it is, he did it to himself.

    Nobody made him do a half-arsed renegotiation.
    Nobody made him attempt to sell his half-arsed renegotiation as the best thing since sliced bread.
    Exactly. He tried to play the Brits for fools. His downfall was entirely self-inflicted.
    No. It was inflicted by the EU obsessives within his own party who demanded a referendum. Many of the same guys who stabbed Major in the back.

    Sad to see you're not being in the least bit gracious today, and that your dislike of Cameron still shines through.
    Be fair, Mr Jessop, see my post in response to Mr. Nabavi in which I agreed that Cameron has probably been the best PM in the last half-century save Thatcher.

    Personally I couldn't stand the bloke but that doesn't stop me recognising his talents as well as his failings.

    Cameron told us that he was prepared to lead the UK out of the EU if he didn't get a good enough deal and that the UK could thrive outside the EU. He secured what I thought was a crap, in fact pretty much meaningless, deal. He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us. So was he lying to me with his first set of views or with his second set of views?

    Cameron caused his own downfall playing fast and loose with the British people and, I think, he thought he could take us for fools, who would back him because he was, to quote the person of whom he was supposed to be the heir, " a pretty straight kind of guy".

    So, I'll not feel sad at his political passing. He brought it on himself.
    Perhaps in his wisdom he didn't think the deal was [email protected] or pretty much meaningless. You know, opinions do differ. And ISTR you had made up your mind on that matter well before the negotiations.

    As for "He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us." - really? That's playing a little fast and loose with what was said, is it not?
    Lets leave it there Mr. Jessop and, hopefully, remain friends. Or, if you want, I'll buy you dinner on Saturday 10th September (when I am going to be up near Cambridge) and then we can thrash it out face to face, and hopefully remain friends afterwards.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Looks like Betfair have settled PM after Cameron.

    No PM after May market yet, though :lol:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789

    Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.

    A real mothers' meeting.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,467
    Betfair has settled.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,034

    A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM

    The tragedy of it is, he did it to himself.

    Nobody made him do a half-arsed renegotiation.
    Nobody made him attempt to sell his half-arsed renegotiation as the best thing since sliced bread.
    Exactly. He tried to play the Brits for fools. His downfall was entirely self-inflicted.
    No. It was inflicted by the EU obsessives within his own party who demanded a referendum. Many of the same guys who stabbed Major in the back.

    Sad to see you're not being in the least bit gracious today, and that your dislike of Cameron still shines through.
    Be fair, Mr Jessop, see my post in response to Mr. Nabavi in which I agreed that Cameron has probably been the best PM in the last half-century save Thatcher.

    Personally I couldn't stand the bloke but that doesn't stop me recognising his talents as well as his failings.

    Cameron told us that he was prepared to lead the UK out of the EU if he didn't get a good enough deal and that the UK could thrive outside the EU. He secured what I thought was a crap, in fact pretty much meaningless, deal. He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us. So was he lying to me with his first set of views or with his second set of views?

    Cameron caused his own downfall playing fast and loose with the British people and, I think, he thought he could take us for fools, who would back him because he was, to quote the person of whom he was supposed to be the heir, " a pretty straight kind of guy".

    So, I'll not feel sad at his political passing. He brought it on himself.
    Perhaps in his wisdom he didn't think the deal was [email protected] or pretty much meaningless. You know, opinions do differ. And ISTR you had made up your mind on that matter well before the negotiations.

    As for "He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us." - really? That's playing a little fast and loose with what was said, is it not?
    Lets leave it there Mr. Jessop and, hopefully, remain friends. Or, if you want, I'll buy you dinner on Saturday 10th September (when I am going to be up near Cambridge) and then we can thrash it out face to face, and hopefully remain friends afterwards.
    Agreed. Let's hope we're both well enough for such a meeting. :)

    Peace.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,613
    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.

    Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum. :(
    Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.
    The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.
    People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.
    Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...
    What sort of EU?
    The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.
    I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!
    So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?
    She is doomed to failure, and will be remembered as the very worst prime minister ever.
    No rush to judgement here.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    MikeL said:

    Huw Edwards just said Queen came to the throne in 1951.

    How can the BBC get such a basic thing wrong? Totally hopeless.

    Probably dated from the start of Churchill's second stint as PM.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,399
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
    AAARRGGH Brown.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MikeL said:

    Huw Edwards just said Queen came to the throne in 1951.

    How can the BBC get such a basic thing wrong? Totally hopeless.

    You'd have thought the BBC would get these minor details of Andrea Leadsom's CV correct !!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    The new PM gets a few moment to collect her thoughts - and play with all the electronic toys in the back of the Jaguar!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574

    The new PM gets a few moment to collect her thoughts - and play with all the electronic toys in the back of the Jaguar!

    "Don't press that button!!!"
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    nunu said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
    Lol. Does anyone still take ratings agencies seriously.
    The ratings agencies are another casualty of the 2008 crash. We lost our AAA rating with Fitch and Moodys in 2013. S&P just joined the club. The day they did that, our borrowing costs went down. I would be entirely unsurprised if gilts carry negative interest rates in the next couple of years.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    John_M said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.

    Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum. :(
    Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.
    The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.
    People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.
    Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...
    What sort of EU?
    The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.
    I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!
    So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?
    It seems to me that everybody understood Cameron´s referendum question in their own particular way- some thought it meant more money for the NHS, or an end to EU immigration, others an end to third world immigration, others increased privileges for bankers and the City of London, others for abolition of environmental control and workers´rights. Whatever you like.

    And now that Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, Leadsome etc have all scarpered off, Mrs May is left trying to reconcile all these contradictions. She is doomed to failure, and will be remembered as the very worst prime minister ever.
    I think you're forgetting that the UK electorate just aren't ideological. I hate pigeonholing myself, but I probably lean Hannanite. However, I'm not going to die in a ditch if we went for an EEA-like option.

    Similarly, immigration just has to be demonstrably better controlled rather than reduced to zero. We're a phlegmatic bunch. We'll adapt to the new reality and get on with what's actually important; family, friends, community.
    You are probably right, Mr M. We will.

    However, this particular argument started off with the foolish assertion that the Referendum gave us a totally clear decision about what the public wanted.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821

    RobD said:

    saddened said:

    why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?

    What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.
    Reliant Robin :D
    Brompton bicycle.
    I'm sure I passed the PMs motorcade coming the other way when he attended the first day of the tour de france in yorkshire. all black range rovers. looked suitably impressive I thought.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 5,046
    JackW said:

    MikeL said:

    Huw Edwards just said Queen came to the throne in 1951.

    How can the BBC get such a basic thing wrong? Totally hopeless.

    You'd have thought the BBC would get these minor details of Andrea Leadsom's CV correct !!
    pb joke of the day.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    RobD said:

    The new PM gets a few moment to collect her thoughts - and play with all the electronic toys in the back of the Jaguar!

    "Don't press that button!!!"
    And in a moment, Moscow was accidentally turned into a glowing blob....
  • eekeek Posts: 17,293
    AndyJS said:

    Cameron's final Tweet as custodian of the Number10gov feed:

    twitter.com/Number10gov/status/753192970015350784

    Personally I would have gone for:-

    So long and thanks for all the fish

  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    RobD said:

    The new PM gets a few moment to collect her thoughts - and play with all the electronic toys in the back of the Jaguar!

    "Don't press that button!!!"
    "Don't tell anyone, driver, but I think I might have just nuked Sheffield."
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,537
    I hope Mrs May remembers to thank Obama for getting her the new job.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    Contrast this with the US President who stays in office for two months after losing an election!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,042
    Cameron will be remembered for four things: coalition, gay marriage, Brexit and a peculiar love of pigs.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2016
    Theresa May about to arrive at 10 Downing Street.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,709
    edited July 2016
    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    Danny565 said:

    Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"

    Perhaps he'll now post on PB using his real name?
    So long TSE....! :D
    Snowflake x+1 ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,287

    Looks like Betfair have settled PM after Cameron.

    No PM after May market yet, though :lol:

    A couple of brave and patient souls have matched £4 on Stephen Crabb at 25.0 (Next Con leader)
  • FF43 said:


    Sounds like a qualified Yes and a willingness to park the EU issue at least for a while.

    Basically - Yes, provided the EU don't take the piss in the Brexit negotiations.

    Certainly not park the EU issue for a while. It needs to be done as soon as possible so we can get on with bilaterial RoW trade deals, defenestrate the ECJ and take back control of Agricultural and Fisheries so we can implement sane conservation measures instead of the nonsense of the CFP etc. That is another reason to stay in EEA/EFTA as it makes Brexit far quicker to sort and gets it done before anyone gets cold feet.

    The deal ought to be sorted out by the diplomats in principle before we trigger A50 and the formal negotiations can just be some high profile grandstanding about what the Danegeld/Freedom of movement concessions will be before, perhaps with one short breakdown in talks and public huffiness, everyone emerges into the Sunlight with a deal that takes Britian out of the EU but allows the EU to claim that Britain and the EU are still valued partners in Europe or whatever flowery guff.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,289
    Jonathan said:

    Cameron will be remembered for four things: coalition, gay marriage, Brexit and a peculiar love of pigs.

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - worst ever financial crisis
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,987

    A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM

    Away you halfwit he stabbed himself. Get a life and stop attacking innocent people.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Now that May's in, what time is the curfew tonight?
  • RobD said:

    The new PM gets a few moment to collect her thoughts - and play with all the electronic toys in the back of the Jaguar!

    "Don't press that button!!!"
    And in a moment, Moscow was accidentally turned into a glowing blob....
    Surely all our nukes have a default setting pointing at France?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    What a strange fashion choice.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,289
    edited July 2016
    Who are the protestors? Some union rent-a-mob?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Don't tell anyone, driver, but I think I might have just nuked Sheffield."

    Reminds me of that Ali G indahouse line

    'I eard the prime minister of Wales called yor mum a slag...'
  • John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.

    Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.

    I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.
    Actually in 2010 the economy was recovering from the global crash until Osborne's Plan A flatlined it.
    Strange how you lefties who laud Gordon Brown's economic recovery in 2010 never have "sustainable" in your vocabulary....
    AAA Brown vs. AA Cameron

    All you need to know
    Lol. Does anyone still take ratings agencies seriously.
    The ratings agencies are another casualty of the 2008 crash. We lost our AAA rating with Fitch and Moodys in 2013. S&P just joined the club. The day they did that, our borrowing costs went down. I would be entirely unsurprised if gilts carry negative interest rates in the next couple of years.
    The rating agencies lost all their credibility in the 2008 crash, it is of far less consequence what they think now
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I know it's ridiculously trivial, but May's weird movement with her bottom lip when she takes a breath while talking REALLY EFFING BOTHERS ME.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2016
    Bloody awful speech.

    3/10
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,040
    But this was never going to happen.... louise told me so...

    https://twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/753273584966049793
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,738
    Was that shrieking noise Nicola Sturgeon's reaction to May talking about Unionism in her second sentence as PM?
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,399
    She's repeating her Birmingham speech.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:

    Bloody awful speech.

    She's only just started.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,709

    glw said:

    RobD said:

    Yeah, if public and private education gave the same results. That's where the problem is. I don't think we should be handicapping ourselves just to meet some sort of quota. Rather, we should be making public education better.

    Of course, but the privately educated are still vastly over-represented even taking that into account.

    We need to become a society where everybody gets a good education and the same opportunities, not one where a handful of schools and universities still dominate high-office.
    You are Michael Gove and ICMFP.
    Perhaps the privately educated are more capable :-o
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    ydoethur said:

    Was that shrieking noise Nicola Sturgeon's reaction to May talking about Unionism in her second sentence as PM?

    Another "material change in circumstances" :)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    Bye bye, privileged few....
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,172
    Flippin eck Theresa - this is pretty robust stuff - and for a Tory PM too!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,541
    Danny565 said:

    I know it's ridiculously trivial, but May's weird movement with her bottom lip when she takes a breath while talking REALLY EFFING BOTHERS ME.

    Not as annoying as Brown's famous "drop jaw".
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,091
    All credit to May, she is saying the right things
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,289
    This is just a reheated (same?) version of the Birmingham speech.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,399
    Clear and concise. Now on with the work.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,813

    Bye bye, privileged few....

    Good to have a state grammar school girl in No.10.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,042
    oh dear
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,766
    Pong said:

    Danny565 said:

    Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"

    Perhaps he'll now post on PB using his real name?
    Yeah Cromwell, come on back..
  • YossariansChildYossariansChild Posts: 536
    edited July 2016
    Listening to that speech. Labour is screwed isnt it.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,596
    Speech struck exactly the right tone. How must labour feel
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    I wonder if Dennis Thatcher left a note in Number 10 for future husbands of Prime Ministers?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Ted Heath is back. Bell bottoms will be the new trend for autumn.
This discussion has been closed.