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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moneybox/2016/07/why_political_betting_markets_are_failing.html
The implication for bettors is that when the odds seem too stable, trade on the news. Don’t assume that the markets have already incorporated all openly available information. Right now the prediction market prices for the presidential election have been incredibly stable for nearly a month, despite waves of news on business scandals, fundraising money, poll swings, and possible indictments. A mature prediction market should show measured, but real, swings in prices in response to news.0 -
Yeah, if public and private education gave the same results. That's where the problem is. I don't think we should be handicapping ourselves just to meet some sort of quota. Rather, we should be making public education better.glw said:
On average they ought to make up no more than 7% of MPs, ministers etc. Not bag most of the top jobs. Until that's fixed don't expect the public to like them.AndyJS said:0 -
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Doubt it. Half the country just wanted to stick two fingers up to London and "the Metropolitan elite" and bugger the consequences. In retrospect, the poor sod was always pushing a boulder uphill.IanB2 said:
Had he been able (by overcoming his prior faux scepticism) to run a more positive Remain campaign, not solely based on trying to frighten people on the economy, and also authorised a more robust demolition of the nonsense being spouted by the Tory leaver brigade, he would also still be PM, having won the referendum, as was always his intention.Jobabob said:
He doesn't believe in leaving the EU.KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
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From someone on the other side of the fence, agreed.DaemonBarber said:He's a class act and will be missed
For me, the highlight was his conduct at CHOGM 2013. He proved to all the critics (including me) that going to Colombo was the right thing to do and he delivered on promising to shine a light on Rajapaska's regime. He played a blinder and for that I am thankful.0 -
I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.0
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Why do you think we chose to position ourselvess on the right side of history?Cyclefree said:
Possibly. I'm beginning to wonder if the referendum was lost for Remain long before the renegotiation, that it was used as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by many voters to give an "Up Yours" to a way of governing that lots of people had been sotto voce grumbling about for years, a feeling that government (both British/EU) had become a conspiracy against the people rather than the servants of the people.Bob__Sykes said:
He wanted his legacy to include securing the UK's place in Europe and killing off the issue for a generation. That was entirely noble, and probably achievable if he'd only got a bit more out of his negotiation and if Labour had a moderate likeable leader going all out to campaign for "Remain".KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
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Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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i always thought it was the poll tax that did for maggie, not europe.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........0 -
Ha ha ha ha ha.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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The trick to posts like this is to either make them really subtle or really overblown.JWisemann said:I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.
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He did. But generally he has been a model of discretion. Blair on the other hand ..................Sunil_Prasannan said:
Major called LEAVERs rude names during the Campaign, didn't he?Cyclefree said:I hope Cameron learns from Major rather than Blair how to be an ex-Prime Minister.
Cameron seems much more grounded and will, I think, relish his time with his family. He deserves it - as do they. I would not be surprised to see him contribute to public life in some other way in due course and I hope he does. Public service is an honourable calling and it would be good to have some good role models rather than some of the shysters who have been all too prevalent in recent years.
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bumpkins rule.Jobabob said:
Doubt it. Half the country just wanted to stick two fingers up to London and "the Metropolitan elite" and bugger the consequences. In retrospect, the poor sod was always pushing a boulder uphill.IanB2 said:
Had he been able (by overcoming his prior faux scepticism) to run a more positive Remain campaign, not solely based on trying to frighten people on the economy, and also authorised a more robust demolition of the nonsense being spouted by the Tory leaver brigade, he would also still be PM, having won the referendum, as was always his intention.Jobabob said:
He doesn't believe in leaving the EU.KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
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Cameron is sane. Blair isn't.Cyclefree said:
He did. But generally he has been a model of discretion. Blair on the other hand ..................Sunil_Prasannan said:
Major called LEAVERs rude names during the Campaign, didn't he?Cyclefree said:I hope Cameron learns from Major rather than Blair how to be an ex-Prime Minister.
Cameron seems much more grounded and will, I think, relish his time with his family. He deserves it - as do they. I would not be surprised to see him contribute to public life in some other way in due course and I hope he does. Public service is an honourable calling and it would be good to have some good role models rather than some of the shysters who have been all too prevalent in recent years.
It boils down to that.0 -
Mark Senior has said something positive about a Tory PM?MarkSenior said:A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM
I do feel bad that I voted against Cameron (and effectively helped to end his career) in the referendum but we are where we are and we've just got to move on.
Maybe Dave will start posting on PB in a few days! First thing I'd say is sorry Dave. No hard feelings.0 -
"That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now"Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.
Chuckle. I doubt it!0 -
I remember having conversations with you about that before and after the meeting, and your change of mind and honesty were to your credit.murali_s said:
From someone on the other side of the fence, agreed.DaemonBarber said:He's a class act and will be missed
For me, the highlight was his conduct at CHOGM 2013. He proved to all the critics (including me) that going to Colombo was the right thing to do and he delivered on promising to shine a light on Rajapaska's regime. He played a blinder and for that I am thankful.0 -
Near Purr-fect Prime MinisterPlatoSaid said:
More Catbert, I suspect.RobD said:
Or May might turn out to be similar to the Cat Lady from the SimpsonsHurstLlama said:Now, looking to the future; does anyone know what TM's attitude is to cats? We saw a picture on here earlier with Cameron seeming to discuss policy with Larry on his lap (a photo, which had it been publicised a month ago, might have swung the referendum result his way). Which way will the new Prime Minister swing? Will she be pro-Larry or will she be the Cruella de Vill as per that slot-gobbed, money-grabbing, old trout a la Mrs Blair.
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So, in terms of timeframes:
How many PMs have led Coalition governments for a longer time than Cameron?
How many PMs have led Tory governments for a shorter time than Cameron?
From 1832 only.0 -
To the intellectuals and deeper thinker it was the somewhat theoretical and highbrow issue of sovereignty.TCPoliticalBetting said:
May be it is more to do with Conservatives having pride in the country as an independent nation therefore sovereignty matters more to them.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague. It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU. Discuss.........
To the lumpen proletariat it was the issue of lack of control of immigration which is a very observable effect of not having sovereignty.0 -
They were just talking about Thatcher being made OM immediately post her resignation, and then Knight of Garter. Already maximum number in the Order of Merit, but there is one spare KG going.... 0
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Both but I think the EU played a very great part. It put her on a collision course with her Chancellor. The arguments about the ERM poisoned the economic debate and it meant that the economy was not doing well when she was vulnerable. The poll tax did not help but sorting that out was done easily enough whereas 16 years later we're still trying to sort out Europe.paulyork64 said:
i always thought it was the poll tax that did for maggie, not europe.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
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Approximately nobody in the Tory party is going to advocate rejoining.Jobabob said:
"That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now"Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.
Chuckle. I doubt it!0 -
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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Of course, but the privately educated are still vastly over-represented even taking that into account.RobD said:Yeah, if public and private education gave the same results. That's where the problem is. I don't think we should be handicapping ourselves just to meet some sort of quota. Rather, we should be making public education better.
We need to become a society where everybody gets a good education and the same opportunities, not one where a handful of schools and universities still dominate high-office.
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Yes, the idea that he left the country more united than he found it is laughable.JWisemann said:I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.
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So farewell then, former Prime Minister.
Don't be a stranger.0 -
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Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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So this is what anarchy looks like....AndyJS said:No UK PM atm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom0 -
Although I'm not sure anyone else could have done much better. The Scottish situation was going to happen whoever was in charge. And the EU issue couldn't be avoided. (Well it could have been if Blair had called a referendum on the Euro in about 1998).SouthamObserver said:
Yes, the idea that he left the country more united than he found it is laughable.JWisemann said:I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.
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What sort of EU?RobD said:
Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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Just remember DC wanted to go and his wife wanted him to step down.
This happened and the opportunity to resign presented itself.
Farewell DC history will i believe treat you kindly.0 -
The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.PClipp said:
What sort of EU?RobD said:
Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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Which category do you think you belong to?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
To the intellectuals and deeper thinker it was the somewhat theoretical and highbrow issue of sovereignty.TCPoliticalBetting said:
May be it is more to do with Conservatives having pride in the country as an independent nation therefore sovereignty matters more to them.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague. It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU. Discuss.........
To the lumpen proletariat it was the issue of lack of control of immigration which is a very observable effect of not having sovereignty.0 -
yes, but if by default he has created the conditions for the destruction of the Labour Party we can only ever be grateful.SouthamObserver said:
Yes, the idea that he left the country more united than he found it is laughable.JWisemann said:I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.
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Complete nonsense isn't it.Bob__Sykes said:Do we have to be subjected to Nick Witchell wittering on? Fair enough for coverage of the Queen's birthday or something, but this is politics. It just happens to be at the Palace...
It seems completely implausible that deeply profound conversations with significant consequences could conceivably take place in such short spaces of time.
Supposedly Theresa May is about to give the Queen a detailed briefing on her plans for the nation's future in what - 15 mins? Including time for photographs and meeting her husband.
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Yes, that is why Blair and Co didnt try. Dave had far to much faith in himself and the dark arts of PR.Jobabob said:
Doubt it. Half the country just wanted to stick two fingers up to London and "the Metropolitan elite" and bugger the consequences. In retrospect, the poor sod was always pushing a boulder uphill.IanB2 said:
Had he been able (by overcoming his prior faux scepticism) to run a more positive Remain campaign, not solely based on trying to frighten people on the economy, and also authorised a more robust demolition of the nonsense being spouted by the Tory leaver brigade, he would also still be PM, having won the referendum, as was always his intention.Jobabob said:
He doesn't believe in leaving the EU.KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
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I love that in the interim someone has made an edit on the title of a 16th century law.AndyJS said:No UK PM atm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom 0 -
why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?0
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Still talking bollocks. You have a long history of itJWisemann said:I admire the Cameron loyalists' chutzpah in the face of their hero's fate to be doomed as the worst prime minister for fifty years, leaving the country divided, weakened and cheapened, but... he will go down in history as a dreadful prime minister, chamberlain and eden territory. Sorry. Class act he was not.
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Theresa May has arrived at the Palace.0
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You are Michael Gove and ICMFP.glw said:
Of course, but the privately educated are still vastly over-represented even taking that into account.RobD said:Yeah, if public and private education gave the same results. That's where the problem is. I don't think we should be handicapping ourselves just to meet some sort of quota. Rather, we should be making public education better.
We need to become a society where everybody gets a good education and the same opportunities, not one where a handful of schools and universities still dominate high-office.0 -
Only 16 Conservatives voted against. How that constitutes a majority I don't know...Paul_Bedfordshire said:The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
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I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!RobD said:
The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.PClipp said:
What sort of EU?RobD said:
Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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Mrs May's usually faultless fashion sense deserting her today IMO...0
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SNP yellow for Theresa. What with the tartan trousers too...0
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Here comes the Icicle...0
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I think that sometimes the "little people", in their masses, have a better sense for the sweepingly big moments in history than the political elite.Charles said:
Why do you think we chose to position ourselves on the right side of history?Cyclefree said:
Possibly. I'm beginning to wonder if the referendum was lost for Remain long before the renegotiation, that it was used as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by many voters to give an "Up Yours" to a way of governing that lots of people had been sotto voce grumbling about for years, a feeling that government (both British/EU) had become a conspiracy against the people rather than the servants of the people.Bob__Sykes said:
He wanted his legacy to include securing the UK's place in Europe and killing off the issue for a generation. That was entirely noble, and probably achievable if he'd only got a bit more out of his negotiation and if Labour had a moderate likeable leader going all out to campaign for "Remain".KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
If in 20 - or better, 40 - years' time any of us are still alive and commenting on PB.com, I would be astonished if any of us would challenge the Wisdom of Sunderland, point at what the EU has become and declare but for one mad year, we would fit right in there.
Was the referendum vote a grasping of Destiny, or a flailing F.U. by a long-failed populace? I don't know. But I do believe there is wisdom in them there crowds.0 -
So what were they voting for on remaining in the EU? Some wishful thinking that they'd give us an even better deal if we stayed in?PClipp said:
I don´t think anybody voted on that basis!!!RobD said:
The one based on Cameron's renegotiation.PClipp said:
What sort of EU?RobD said:
Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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One of Cameron's notable characteristics as PM was that he let ministers get on with things. He rarely interfered or micro-managed. Judging by her style at the Home Office, Theresa May looks likely to try to maintain a much tighter grip.0
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Blair and others were ground down and aged by their time in office. Cameron wears the years lightly. He's leaving while in his prime, with health and sanity intact. He clearly loves his family and will prosper both inside and outside the HoP. He has, in my view, restored some of the lustre to the office of Prime Minister that was tarnished by his immediate predecessors.Cyclefree said:
He did. But generally he has been a model of discretion. Blair on the other hand ..................Sunil_Prasannan said:
Major called LEAVERs rude names during the Campaign, didn't he?Cyclefree said:I hope Cameron learns from Major rather than Blair how to be an ex-Prime Minister.
Cameron seems much more grounded and will, I think, relish his time with his family. He deserves it - as do they. I would not be surprised to see him contribute to public life in some other way in due course and I hope he does. Public service is an honourable calling and it would be good to have some good role models rather than some of the shysters who have been all too prevalent in recent years.
I wish him well. Dammit Dave. That referendum campaign *sob*.0 -
Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.0
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No this is what direct rule by the Monarch looks like.RobD said:
So this is what anarchy looks like....AndyJS said:No UK PM atm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom0 -
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha ---> WindsorAlanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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If I am honest - bothTheuniondivvie said:
Which category do you think you belong to?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
To the intellectuals and deeper thinker it was the somewhat theoretical and highbrow issue of sovereignty.TCPoliticalBetting said:
May be it is more to do with Conservatives having pride in the country as an independent nation therefore sovereignty matters more to them.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague. It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU. Discuss.........
To the lumpen proletariat it was the issue of lack of control of immigration which is a very observable effect of not having sovereignty.0 -
HM, quickly! Dissolve parliament!Paul_Bedfordshire said:
No this is what direct rule by the Monarch looks like.RobD said:
So this is what anarchy looks like....AndyJS said:No UK PM atm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom0 -
Might that just be because he started off as PM in a coalition? He couldn't be seen to be micromanaging Lib Dem ministers, so couldn't micromanage Conservative ones either? And once he won a majority, the habit and precedent were set.Richard_Nabavi said:One of Cameron's notable characteristics as PM was that he let ministers get on with things. He rarely interfered or micro-managed. Judging by her style at the Home Office, Theresa May looks likely to try to maintain a much tighter grip.
What was this his style when he was leader of the opposition? Hands-off or micro-managing?0 -
LOLSunil_Prasannan said:
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha ---> WindsorAlanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
should be a Rolls Royce then. German car built in Sussex.0 -
Demonstrating why Germany will give us a good dealSunil_Prasannan said:
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha ---> WindsorAlanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Yes, it was his style in opposition.JosiasJessop said:Might that just be because he started off as PM in a coalition? He couldn't be seen to be micromanaging Lib Dem ministers, so couldn't micromanage Conservative ones either? And once he won a majority, the habit and precedent were set.
What was this his style when he was leader of the opposition? Hands-off or micro-managing?0 -
They don't make those old Rovers any more but surely the Prime Minister has a British Jaguar. Does Cameron hand over the keys at the palace?Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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No, he got driven away in it. May was stuck in the BMW!DecrepitJohnL said:
They don't make those old Rovers any more but surely the Prime Minister has a British Jaguar. Does Cameron hand over the keys at the palace?Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Be fair, Mr Jessop, see my post in response to Mr. Nabavi in which I agreed that Cameron has probably been the best PM in the last half-century save Thatcher.JosiasJessop said:
No. It was inflicted by the EU obsessives within his own party who demanded a referendum. Many of the same guys who stabbed Major in the back.HurstLlama said:
Exactly. He tried to play the Brits for fools. His downfall was entirely self-inflicted.ThreeQuidder said:
The tragedy of it is, he did it to himself.MarkSenior said:A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM
Nobody made him do a half-arsed renegotiation.
Nobody made him attempt to sell his half-arsed renegotiation as the best thing since sliced bread.
Sad to see you're not being in the least bit gracious today, and that your dislike of Cameron still shines through.
Personally I couldn't stand the bloke but that doesn't stop me recognising his talents as well as his failings.
Cameron told us that he was prepared to lead the UK out of the EU if he didn't get a good enough deal and that the UK could thrive outside the EU. He secured what I thought was a crap, in fact pretty much meaningless, deal. He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us. So was he lying to me with his first set of views or with his second set of views?
Cameron caused his own downfall playing fast and loose with the British people and, I think, he thought he could take us for fools, who would back him because he was, to quote the person of whom he was supposed to be the heir, " a pretty straight kind of guy".
So, I'll not feel sad at his political passing. He brought it on himself.0 -
Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.
And good luck Theresa: I fear you're going to need it.0 -
Reliant Robinsaddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Had the exact same thought. I wasn't fussed either way at the time (of the leadership contest), but now it's May I for some reason feel glad it's her and not Leadsom.Big_G_NorthWales said:Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.
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The Queen was making a point re: Thatcher having to wait for the Garter. It's one of the few honours that is her personal gift.RobD said:They were just talking about Thatcher being made OM immediately post her resignation, and then Knight of Garter. Already maximum number in the Order of Merit, but there is one spare KG going....
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JCB mate - street cred toosaddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.0 -
Remind Angela what's at stake and to play nice..Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Indian jaguarDecrepitJohnL said:
They don't make those old Rovers any more but surely the Prime Minister has a British Jaguar. Does Cameron hand over the keys at the palace?Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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So is the Order of Merit!Charles said:
The Queen was making a point re: Thatcher having to wait for the Garter. It's one of the few honours that is her personal gift.RobD said:They were just talking about Thatcher being made OM immediately post her resignation, and then Knight of Garter. Already maximum number in the Order of Merit, but there is one spare KG going....
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Easy to get past any roadblocks/obstructions...Alanbrooke said:
JCB mate - street cred toosaddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Dave, rivaled only by Eden and Chamberlain.
No flowers. Next please.
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And that's something that almost all of us will agree with.JosiasJessop said:Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.
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That is not an entirely fair description of the EEA.FF43 said:
Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.0 -
We will fight them in the brasseries, we will fight them in the fancy wine bars, we will fight them in the frock shops!Alanbrooke said:
bumpkins rule.Jobabob said:
Doubt it. Half the country just wanted to stick two fingers up to London and "the Metropolitan elite" and bugger the consequences. In retrospect, the poor sod was always pushing a boulder uphill.IanB2 said:
Had he been able (by overcoming his prior faux scepticism) to run a more positive Remain campaign, not solely based on trying to frighten people on the economy, and also authorised a more robust demolition of the nonsense being spouted by the Tory leaver brigade, he would also still be PM, having won the referendum, as was always his intention.Jobabob said:
He doesn't believe in leaving the EU.KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
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Definitely deal with the speed bumpsAlanbrooke said:
JCB mate - street cred toosaddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Jaguar XJ for the PM and XF for the Cabinet? Nissans and Hondas for junior ministers.saddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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Given he dug himself a bloody big hole, Cameron should have had a JCB.....saddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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The Wikipedia editors have decided Theresa May has now been appointed PM.0
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As a LibDem, I met Cameron at a no. 10 reception in 2011. Part of me thought "wow, this guy is really a LibDem". And part of me admired his political skill to be able to make a room full of his opponents think that he actually agreed with us.
To this day I don't know where between these two extremes the truth lies.0 -
LOL!MarqueeMark said:
Given he dug himself a bloody big hole, Cameron should have had a JCB.....saddened said:
What marque would you recommend? I'm struggling to think of anything British that would fit the bill.Alanbrooke said:why the fk are the cabinet being driven around in German cars ?
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David Cameron is currently and for a few minutes still in the top three C21 prime ministers.0
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The fact that we have no real say in what sort of EU it will become is one of the key reasons for voting to leave.PClipp said:
What sort of EU?RobD said:
Yeah, the choice was between staying in the EU, and leaving the EU...PClipp said:
People were asked to vote without knowing what the possible alternatives were. The Leave campaign, headed by prominent Tories, promised any number of contradictory outcomes. And Caameron´s team just kept on threatening us. This was not a real choice.RobD said:
The question was hardly meaningless, we'll be leaving the EU.PClipp said:
Certaiinly not. It was a waste of time and money. The question was meaningless without greater precision.RobD said:
Not even a kind word for delivering on the referendum.runnymede said:Good riddance to a man who first tried to bounce the public into voting away their future, then tried to scare and bully them into doing so. He disgraced his office and his departure is a very good thing.
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How will the country cope now that the direct link between PB and Number 10 has been severed?GIN1138 said:
Mark Senior has said something positive about a Tory PM?MarkSenior said:A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM
I do feel bad that I voted against Cameron (and effectively helped to end his career) in the referendum but we are where we are and we've just got to move on.
Maybe Dave will start posting on PB in a few days! First thing I'd say is sorry Dave. No hard feelings.
TSE 4 SpAd ?0 -
I completely agree.MyBurningEars said:
I think that sometimes the "little people", in their masses, have a better sense for the sweepingly big moments in history than the political elite.Charles said:
Why do you think we chose to position ourselves on the right side of history?Cyclefree said:
Possibly. I'm beginning to wonder if the referendum was lost for Remain long before the renegotiation, that it was used as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by many voters to give an "Up Yours" to a way of governing that lots of people had been sotto voce grumbling about for years, a feeling that government (both British/EU) had become a conspiracy against the people rather than the servants of the people.Bob__Sykes said:
He wanted his legacy to include securing the UK's place in Europe and killing off the issue for a generation. That was entirely noble, and probably achievable if he'd only got a bit more out of his negotiation and if Labour had a moderate likeable leader going all out to campaign for "Remain".KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
If in 20 - or better, 40 - years' time any of us are still alive and commenting on PB.com, I would be astonished if any of us would challenge the Wisdom of Sunderland, point at what the EU has become and declare but for one mad year, we would fit right in there.
Was the referendum vote a grasping of Destiny, or a flailing F.U. by a long-failed populace? I don't know. But I do believe there is wisdom in them there crowds.
It's far too easy for the country's leadership team to become divorced from the realities of life for normal people. It's hard work keeping your finger on the pulse, but worth doing.0 -
For a safe and secure society?RobD said:
HM, quickly! Dissolve parliament!Paul_Bedfordshire said:
No this is what direct rule by the Monarch looks like.RobD said:
So this is what anarchy looks like....AndyJS said:No UK PM atm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom 0 -
sorry JaB it's a chavtocracy now.Jobabob said:
We will fight them in the brasseries, we will fight them in the fancy wine bars, we will fight them in the frock shops!Alanbrooke said:
bumpkins rule.Jobabob said:
Doubt it. Half the country just wanted to stick two fingers up to London and "the Metropolitan elite" and bugger the consequences. In retrospect, the poor sod was always pushing a boulder uphill.IanB2 said:
Had he been able (by overcoming his prior faux scepticism) to run a more positive Remain campaign, not solely based on trying to frighten people on the economy, and also authorised a more robust demolition of the nonsense being spouted by the Tory leaver brigade, he would also still be PM, having won the referendum, as was always his intention.Jobabob said:
He doesn't believe in leaving the EU.KentRising said:If he'd campaigned for Leave, he'd have won it by a landslide and would have been untouchable.
we'll have you tattooed0 -
I know you're slanting the presentation of the EEA option, but I'll answer in what I hope is the spirit of your question. I'd be fine with the EEA as a first step. Obviously, I'm in a minority. I think freedom of movement as currently defined is doomed in the medium term, even if the UK can't win concessions.FF43 said:
Genuine question to a (pre-referendum) committed Brexiteer. If you are told, out of EU, but keep a multilateral arrangement via the EEA, unrestricted freedom of movement, UK subject to foreign court, and no say on legislation enacted multilaterally, - would you say, I accept that, maybe not my first choice, but I can live with it?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would say Heath was also destroyed by the Europe issue. Firstly if he hadn't gone into the EU the industrial strife would not have been as bad and secondly he was out by a handful of votes - and would probably have got them if senior tories including a former cabinet minister were not advising people to vote Labour in the 74 elections.Cyclefree said:
It is quite something how many British Tory PMs have - in the end - been destroyed by the EU issue: Thatcher, Major, Cameron i.e. all of them since Heath who took us in.Bob__Sykes said:
I'm really quite emotional about all this. I have ranted and railed at times, but I was "with him" generally from day 1 when Howard announced he was quitting. That's 11 years ago, and that's more than a quarter of my lifetime.DaemonBarber said:
Permission for top lip to wobble; granted.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm doing my best to not cry like a disgraced televangelist
What a stupid, stupid waste of a generally sound Premiership.
And how many other Tory leaders/would be leaders have had to or felt they needed to define themselves around the EU issue: Clarke, Portillo, IDS, Hague.
It is odd that the EU issue has been so toxic for the Tories when - arguably - it is Labour voters who have felt more of the disadvantages of being in the EU.
Discuss.........
The majority of Tory MPs voted to stay out and Heath only got the legislation narrowly through with the help of Labour Europhiles like Woy.
That poisoned the party for 41 years, dividing it into Europhiles and Eurosceptics. That is over now and the intellectual energy can be focused on more useful things.
However, I don't see how we can have EEA - it's contentious domestically and difficult for the EU27.0 -
If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population gaped in admiration...MyBurningEars said:
I think that sometimes the "little people", in their masses, have a better sense for the sweepingly big moments in history than the political elite.Charles said:
Why do you think we chose to position ourselves on the right side of history?
If in 20 - or better, 40 - years' time any of us are still alive and commenting on PB.com, I would be astonished if any of us would challenge the Wisdom of Sunderland, point at what the EU has become and declare but for one mad year, we would fit right in there.
Was the referendum vote a grasping of Destiny, or a flailing F.U. by a long-failed populace? I don't know. But I do believe there is wisdom in them there crowds.
- I love this guy!
- I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.
- Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!
... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.
But we didn't. In fact, that would be la-la land. The EU has never really had a Kennedy-style political icon to rally the troops to the cause, has it? So I don't think the British people can be accused of being thick in their distaste for Brussels bureaucrats. Not a bad job when the EU spends a small fortune on "information", "engagement" and "cultural programmes" to bolster public opinion.0 -
Doesn't bare thinking about does it.Big_G_NorthWales said:Watching all of this can anyone imagine that it was Andrea Leadsom meeting the Queen just now to become PM.
84 MPs should be ashamed of themselves for voting for someone so completely unqualified.
Not the first thing on her agenda but Theresa should consider / propose two potential changes to the leadership rules:
- Different rules when in Government rather than Opposition
- Some kind of MPs threshold (eg any candidate over 60% automatically elected) or an Electoral College (50% MPs, 50% members)
Whatever the precise details the rules must be changed to prevent a Corbyn type situation.0 -
Yes, he got rid of Brown for us and revived the economy. I think people forget just what a terrible state we was in back in 2010. The 2010 to 2015 coalition did make decent progress.JosiasJessop said:Thanks Dave. IMO you did well. Not brilliantly, but well. But you prevented the catastrophe of another Brown government, or an Ed one.
I think he could have been an all time great PM but in the end he was too much of a gambler.0 -
Perhaps in his wisdom he didn't think the deal was cr@p or pretty much meaningless. You know, opinions do differ. And ISTR you had made up your mind on that matter well before the negotiations.HurstLlama said:
Be fair, Mr Jessop, see my post in response to Mr. Nabavi in which I agreed that Cameron has probably been the best PM in the last half-century save Thatcher.JosiasJessop said:
No. It was inflicted by the EU obsessives within his own party who demanded a referendum. Many of the same guys who stabbed Major in the back.HurstLlama said:
Exactly. He tried to play the Brits for fools. His downfall was entirely self-inflicted.ThreeQuidder said:
The tragedy of it is, he did it to himself.MarkSenior said:A good PM stabbed in the back by people like Plato who a year ago went round asking people to vote for him as PM
Nobody made him do a half-arsed renegotiation.
Nobody made him attempt to sell his half-arsed renegotiation as the best thing since sliced bread.
Sad to see you're not being in the least bit gracious today, and that your dislike of Cameron still shines through.
Personally I couldn't stand the bloke but that doesn't stop me recognising his talents as well as his failings.
Cameron told us that he was prepared to lead the UK out of the EU if he didn't get a good enough deal and that the UK could thrive outside the EU. He secured what I thought was a crap, in fact pretty much meaningless, deal. He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us. So was he lying to me with his first set of views or with his second set of views?
Cameron caused his own downfall playing fast and loose with the British people and, I think, he thought he could take us for fools, who would back him because he was, to quote the person of whom he was supposed to be the heir, " a pretty straight kind of guy".
So, I'll not feel sad at his political passing. He brought it on himself.
As for "He then told us that if we voted to leave the EU armageddon would descend on us." - really? That's playing a little fast and loose with what was said, is it not?0 -
Cameron's Twitter description now: "Former Prime Minister and MP for Witney"0
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ANYONE is free to edit Wikipedia articles (as long as they haven't been locked), all you do is give away your IP address in the edit history.AndyJS said:The Wikipedia editors have decided Theresa May has now been appointed PM.
If you sign up to become an editor, then you can hide your IP address, and edit locked articles.0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_KingdomAndyJS said:The Wikipedia editors have decided Theresa May has now been appointed PM.
This page says Jeremy Hewyood??0
This discussion has been closed.