@mrianleslie: In this interview Daniel Hannan says the Leave campaign was NOT about disassociating the UK from the EU https://t.co/6FW9agTL2d
That cannot be the literal quote!?
He's saying we need to repatriate powers but can't ignore the 48%.
Amanpour: I thought this referendum was about disassociating from the EU. Hannan: I get that you thought that. You were evidently not listening. Amanpour: So it wasn't? Hannan: Correct.
Partial quoting again. You really are a despicable piece of shit.
You ok hun?
No. I don't like fuckwits who misrepresent people. I spend all my time on here trying to be straight and factual and attacking both sides when they misrepresent. You clearly have no interest in the truth. You are pretty much the embodiment of what is wrong with political debate in this country.
You're projecting.
The interesting part of the video is the first minute where Hannan clearly leaves all options open. I quoted the bit near the end in full because that was the except used in the tweet.
You don't quote it in full. He immediately explained what he wants and makes it clear that means being outside the EU. Or couldn't you actually be bothered to listen to the rest after you had your partial quote?
In private Dan Hannan must be as embarrassed by the Leave campaign's focus on immigration as you were. He has the misfortune of being publicly associated with it, but to go on TV and point blank refuse to admit that it was a major factor in the result just damages any credibility the rest of his arguments might have.
I honestly think a new "Progress Labour" breakaway party would top out at about 5% in the polls. Apart from a few media comentators, who exactly would be supporting them?? Which constituencies would they be competitive in in a general election?
'Is David Cameron the ideal leader for a breakaway SDP Mark 2 party comprising the right wing of the Labour Party, One Nation Tories, and Orange bookers'
No, TSE would be the ideal leader, given that he's a Sheffield Hallam LibDem at heart
Mr. JS, Corbyn can survive. Not sure about Labour, though.
Mr Morris If Corbyn goes back to the membership, and they confirm him, what on earth happens then?
Progress Labour buggers off and at least 15 years of Tory Governments ensues as left vote is split between Labour and progress Labour until progress Labour gives it up as a bad job
Looking on the bright side at least we get to find out who was most out of touch with WWC,
I think Progress Lab are in for a shock but we will see.
Maybe the Members will back down
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to support Corbyn Labour's pro open door immigration, pro-IRA, pro-Hamas platform. When you are living in a dump and not earning enough to warm your house in winter solidarity with the Palestinians is what keeps you going.
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Again, the irony is that an SDP v2 would be based exactly on the principles behind the "Remain" campaign -- the campaign that just got hammered by the voters.
For all the Labour moderates' asserting (without evidence) that they know how to win elections, their mixture of economic conservatism/cultural liberalism has never been less popular with the country.
Yep, what the country is clamouring for are open borders and solidarity with the Palestinians.
Just in case PBers haven't noticed this, Guido has a spreadsheet on nominations for Boris and Co. Boris: 25 Crabb: 16 May: 8 Looks like Crabb wanted to be up and running quickly.
ConHome numbers - I can only see a chance for the first 5. The REMAINer vote is 44%. LEAVEr vote is 56%. If a LEAVEr gets on ballot then they win IMHO.
Theresa May: 29 per cent. Boris Johnson: 28 per cent. Andrea Leadsom: 13 per cent. Liam Fox: 13 per cent. Stephen Crabb: 9 per cent.
Sajid Javid: 2 per cent. Dominic Raab: 2 per cent. George Osborne: 2 per cent. Nicky Morgan: 1 per cent. Jeremy Hunt: 1 per cent. Amber Rudd: 0 per cent.
I'm surprised the Remain support is so high. Going to be interesting to see the verdict on this one.
Yes, REMAIN doing better than expected however it maybe that Theresa is attracting some of the LEAVErs. On a separate note, Leadsom at 13% is remarkable and should encourage her to stand to at least force herself into the cabinet, maybe as Chancellor. She is a clean skin compared to Fox and should pick up MP votes at each stage. Osborne is an abysmal 2% although part of that is deflated by his announcement not to stand today. PS Osborne and 2% support has a certain similarity to his national rating amongst all voters.
I really liked Ms Leadsom during the referendum campaign. Fingers crossed for her.
(I've also got £10 @ 16/1!)
She was excellent during the campaign, but I heard her on WatO on Friday and she was literally lost for words a couple of times when they played extracts of what she had said back to her. I'm afraid she sank in my estimation as a result.
'Is David Cameron the ideal leader for a breakaway SDP Mark 2 party comprising the right wing of the Labour Party, One Nation Tories, and Orange bookers'
Doesn't the old Liberal party still technically exist?
YouGov's analysis of the referendum polling is notably catty.
"They hired a former city trader to conduct an analysis of whether the telephone polls or the online polls were more reliable. The report, which now turns out to have been completely wrong, became extremely influential despite YouGov’s strong arguments at the time that it was based on flimsy evidence and circular logic."
I believe Mr Kellner was predicting an 8 point margin for Remain. Not super.
Mr Kellner is no longer with YouGov.
Yes Kellner said in 2016 that phone polls were best and that REMAIN would win by that margin. In his absence Yougov changed their methodology and have an acceptable degree of absence. Yougov's current head also had a public spat with Kellner and must be enjoying being proved right.
'Is David Cameron the ideal leader for a breakaway SDP Mark 2 party comprising the right wing of the Labour Party, One Nation Tories, and Orange bookers'
With Nick Clegg as his able Deputy presumably...
Shocking after timing, but last year, I wrote but didn't publish a thread about how Dave biggest political mistake might have been to destroy the Lib Dems.
+1... Regardless of the Referendum they provided a useful anchor on the sillier ideas being implemented. The suggestion that all schools had to be academies would have lasted seconds if ever revealed...
Of course the big question is was it Dave's mistake or George's
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
Won't need many stories like this for "steady as she goes" to look more attractive
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
Won't need many stories like this for "steady as she goes" to look more attractive
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
Expecting my Gran's to fall through... It hasn't yet but I think that's just because there is nothing around...
Mr. JS, Corbyn can survive. Not sure about Labour, though.
Mr Morris If Corbyn goes back to the membership, and they confirm him, what on earth happens then?
Progress Labour buggers off and at least 15 years of Tory Governments ensues as left vote is split between Labour and progress Labour until progress Labour gives it up as a bad job
Looking on the bright side at least we get to find out who was most out of touch with WWC,
I think Progress Lab are in for a shock but we will see.
Maybe the Members will back down
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to support Corbyn Labour's pro open door immigration, pro-IRA, pro-Hamas platform. When you are living in a dump and not earning enough to warm your house in winter solidarity with the Palestinians is what keeps you going.
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Yep, you said it: the Tories will have another 15 years in power and when Labour does reunite (if it survives) it will be on the terms of those who quit now.
So you too think Labour Progress will outlive Labour.
If the split happens are you up for a bet which of the 2 does best.
As SO and I both say both will lose out but I think Corbyn Lab beats Progress Lab.
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
I do feel that the pace of our politicians is somewhat out of kilter with the economic urgencies of the moment. A selection of candidates for the Tories so people can put down future markers for themselves seems more than self indulgent at this point. We need leadership which can make clear decisions and we need it soon.
Oh, and perhaps as a sign of my mental infirmity at the moment, I'm seriously considering joining the LibDems. I considered joining either the Lib Dems or Conservatives after the last GE, but am now leaning heavily towards the LDs.
We need an effective opposition in England and Wales, and Labour's too busy opposing itself atm.
Didn't think I'd ever say this but I am pondering the same but from the ex-Labour direction. I will rejoin for £3 to vote for the next leader but if Corbyn prevails then I'm off.
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
Won't need many stories like this for "steady as she goes" to look more attractive
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
who cares that some stupid fanny who was obviously just a tyre kicker pulled out using any old excuse. Property sales have always fallen through and always will. Fanny
Is it possible that May could out Brexit Boris? Could she say that her sole reason for remaining was based on security and was predicated on being a full member? If we are not to be a member, then our security is best served by not having free movement.
I've been giving this site a wide berth since Friday (for reasons that should be obvious to anyone reading the threads) but i won't be voting for Boris.
Put simply, I don't trust him and I don't think he's up to the job.
I think he'll promise anything to anyone to get to the top job, and then do whatever he finds most politically expedient when he gets there.
When I see him clarifying he wants serious reforms to free movement claiming he was "tired" before, and then see Soames come out for him enthusiastically hours later, I smell a giant rat.
I honestly think a new "Progress Labour" breakaway party would top out at about 5% in the polls. Apart from a few media comentators, who exactly would be supporting them?? Which constituencies would they be competitive in in a general election?
It depends who was standing for them and what the circumstances are at the time. Corbyn Labour will go even further left, Brexit may become politically unpopular if the economic waters get choppy. Under such circumstances it may be possible for a lot of MPs who are well known in their constituencies to hold on - especially if members in the constituency jump ship with them.
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
Won't need many stories like this for "steady as she goes" to look more attractive
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
You'd be mad to buy now. Prices could be falling pretty soon.
'Is David Cameron the ideal leader for a breakaway SDP Mark 2 party comprising the right wing of the Labour Party, One Nation Tories, and Orange bookers'
With Nick Clegg as his able Deputy presumably...
Shocking after timing, but last year, I wrote but didn't publish a thread about how Dave biggest political mistake might have been to destroy the Lib Dems.
+1... Regardless of the Referendum they provided a useful anchor on the sillier ideas being implemented. The suggestion that all schools had to be academies would have lasted seconds if ever revealed...
Of course the big question is was it Dave's mistake or George's
Much like the referendum, it's possible they didn't think it would be quite so potent a force to unleash, the assault on the LDs, and it proved more effective than they intended.
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
More from that Yougov article. Populus get both barrels. "One result of that report was an extraordinary method of ‘weighting by social attitude’ which essentially pushes a poll result to a previously known poll of social attitudes. As attitudes to the EU are social attitudes, it was a bizarre idea with no precedent in polling science (you might as well force-weight a sample to previously known EU Referendum attitudes). This method was used for the Remain campaign’s internal polling, and led to Populus’s day-of-voting poll showing a 55-45 victory for Remain (we don’t include it in our averages as we don’t consider it a proper poll). "
Of course no one on PB swallowed the line of ABs are going to win this for REMAIN brieifng from populus/Cooper?
Oh, and perhaps as a sign of my mental infirmity at the moment, I'm seriously considering joining the LibDems. I considered joining either the Lib Dems or Conservatives after the last GE, but am now leaning heavily towards the LDs.
We need an effective opposition in England and Wales, and Labour's too busy opposing itself atm.
Didn't think I'd ever say this but I am pondering the same but from the ex-Labour direction. I will rejoin for £3 to vote for the next leader but if Corbyn prevails then I'm off.
Another 1000 members joined today...now 8,000 since Friday
He's eaten a lot of poo over the years. Let him strut.
He's spread a lot of poo over the years as well. Time to let him sink.
You have to hand it to him, he kept at a hopeless cause and got it through and in the interim has lived well on the Brussels trough. The boy done good.
@Conorpope: Emergency Labour NEC meeting called for Thursday
@PolhomeEditor: The Labour plotters' big bazooka is the resignation of the whips' office, paralysing the opposition. Could happen tonight or tomorrow.
The NEC is key. They decide who gets on the leadership ballot paper. I am not sure this is something the courts would go near, given the way that Labour is set up.
Considering most of our politicians are behaving like idiots that does rather nail the were all doomed meme.
Dead Cat Bounce?
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
It's happening in my (ex-) industry. People are really worried for their jobs, including Mrs J. One small startup has had some funding withdrawn yesterday (although there's always the possibility that might have happened anyway).
Confidence is low; no wonder when there have been staff and friends crying because they feel unwelcome.
And n pathetic safe-area cries of 'Wacist!' can change that.
@paulwaugh: It's war, now. If Corbyn wins 2nd mandate, mandatory reselection of MPs, recall + more power for members all planned https://t.co/NhvzFccCw3
Sounds great.
How could any supporter of democracy not like that.
Just in case PBers haven't noticed this, Guido has a spreadsheet on nominations for Boris and Co. Boris: 25 Crabb: 16 May: 8 Looks like Crabb wanted to be up and running quickly.
ConHome numbers - I can only see a chance for the first 5. The REMAINer vote is 44%. LEAVEr vote is 56%. If a LEAVEr gets on ballot then they win IMHO.
Theresa May: 29 per cent. Boris Johnson: 28 per cent. Andrea Leadsom: 13 per cent. Liam Fox: 13 per cent. Stephen Crabb: 9 per cent.
Sajid Javid: 2 per cent. Dominic Raab: 2 per cent. George Osborne: 2 per cent. Nicky Morgan: 1 per cent. Jeremy Hunt: 1 per cent. Amber Rudd: 0 per cent.
I'm surprised the Remain support is so high. Going to be interesting to see the verdict on this one.
Yes, REMAIN doing better than expected however it maybe that Theresa is attracting some of the LEAVErs. On a separate note, Leadsom at 13% is remarkable and should encourage her to stand to at least force herself into the cabinet, maybe as Chancellor. She is a clean skin compared to Fox and should pick up MP votes at each stage. Osborne is an abysmal 2% although part of that is deflated by his announcement not to stand today. PS Osborne and 2% support has a certain similarity to his national rating amongst all voters.
I really liked Ms Leadsom during the referendum campaign. Fingers crossed for her.
(I've also got £10 @ 16/1!)
She was excellent during the campaign, but I heard her on WatO on Friday and she was literally lost for words a couple of times when they played extracts of what she had said back to her. I'm afraid she sank in my estimation as a result.
I listened to that, and I don't think she performed badly. Quite liked her having a go at the presenter for presenting a Remain supporter as a non-political voice.
And yet enjoys substantial cross party support as witnessed by the failed pre-election government coup.
Meh. I think that was because there were a bunch of people who objected to a ham-fisted assault on the Office of the Speaker by the government, not because people like Bercow specifically.
@patrickwintour: "In light of recent developments", Danny Blanchflower tells John McDonnell " it's over." More credibility shot. https://t.co/Uc1kg0lAPt
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
Given that you want to break my country up, I won't take your advice on what's best for my country.
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
Given that you want to break my country up, I won't take your advice on what's best for my country.
We're not throwing coins into a wishing well.
The decision has been made, the electorate has spoken. This cannot be undone or wished away. Your suggestion - that the UK joins the EEA and quickly - would mean the absolute hammering of the Tories and Labour at the next elections. It could result in civil disobedience in the interim as well. It would be that big a decision.
If you want to keep the UK together you need a better idea. The one you have come up with is an utter fantasy which is completely unworkable.
If you can't come up with a viable idea, then it is time to accept the outcome and face up to making the dissolution of the UK as smooth and quick as possible for everyone's economic sake.
@Conorpope: Emergency Labour NEC meeting called for Thursday
@PolhomeEditor: The Labour plotters' big bazooka is the resignation of the whips' office, paralysing the opposition. Could happen tonight or tomorrow.
The NEC is key. They decide who gets on the leadership ballot paper. I am not sure this is something the courts would go near, given the way that Labour is set up.
NEC has a Corbyn majority last time I looked but who knows now.
Oh, and perhaps as a sign of my mental infirmity at the moment, I'm seriously considering joining the LibDems. I considered joining either the Lib Dems or Conservatives after the last GE, but am now leaning heavily towards the LDs.
We need an effective opposition in England and Wales, and Labour's too busy opposing itself atm.
Didn't think I'd ever say this but I am pondering the same but from the ex-Labour direction. I will rejoin for £3 to vote for the next leader but if Corbyn prevails then I'm off.
Another 1000 members joined today...now 8,000 since Friday
George Freeman MP [who?] denies he's going to stand as Leader of Conservative Party on BBC Look East this evening. His name had been mooted by Guido Fawkes and others.
Considering most of our politicians are behaving like idiots that does rather nail the were all doomed meme.
Dead Cat Bounce?
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
It's happening in my (ex-) industry. People are really worried for their jobs, including Mrs J. One small startup has had some funding withdrawn yesterday (although there's always the possibility that might have happened anyway).
Confidence is low; no wonder when there have been staff and friends crying because they feel unwelcome.
And n pathetic safe-area cries of 'Wacist!' can change that.
It's Waycist.
Apparently, none of this is happening. I am supposed to have made up one of our marketing team being called a Polack and told to fuck off home.
Just in case PBers haven't noticed this, Guido has a spreadsheet on nominations for Boris and Co. Boris: 25 Crabb: 16 May: 8 Looks like Crabb wanted to be up and running quickly.
ConHome numbers - I can only see a chance for the first 5. The REMAINer vote is 44%. LEAVEr vote is 56%. If a LEAVEr gets on ballot then they win IMHO.
Theresa May: 29 per cent. Boris Johnson: 28 per cent. Andrea Leadsom: 13 per cent. Liam Fox: 13 per cent. Stephen Crabb: 9 per cent.
Sajid Javid: 2 per cent. Dominic Raab: 2 per cent. George Osborne: 2 per cent. Nicky Morgan: 1 per cent. Jeremy Hunt: 1 per cent. Amber Rudd: 0 per cent.
I'm surprised the Remain support is so high. Going to be interesting to see the verdict on this one.
Yes, REMAIN doing better than expected however it maybe that Theresa is attracting some of the LEAVErs. On a separate note, Leadsom at 13% is remarkable and should encourage her to stand to at least force herself into the cabinet, maybe as Chancellor. She is a clean skin compared to Fox and should pick up MP votes at each stage. Osborne is an abysmal 2% although part of that is deflated by his announcement not to stand today. PS Osborne and 2% support has a certain similarity to his national rating amongst all voters.
I really liked Ms Leadsom during the referendum campaign. Fingers crossed for her.
(I've also got £10 @ 16/1!)
She was excellent during the campaign, but I heard her on WatO on Friday and she was literally lost for words a couple of times when they played extracts of what she had said back to her. I'm afraid she sank in my estimation as a result.
I listened to that, and I don't think she performed badly. Quite liked her having a go at the presenter for presenting a Remain supporter as a non-political voice.
@patrickwintour: "In light of recent developments", Danny Blanchflower tells John McDonnell " it's over." More credibility shot. https://t.co/Uc1kg0lAPt
@mrianleslie: In this interview Daniel Hannan says the Leave campaign was NOT about disassociating the UK from the EU https://t.co/6FW9agTL2d
That cannot be the literal quote!?
He's saying we need to repatriate powers but can't ignore the 48%.
Amanpour: I thought this referendum was about disassociating from the EU. Hannan: I get that you thought that. You were evidently not listening. Amanpour: So it wasn't? Hannan: Correct.
Partial quoting again. You really are a despicable piece of shit.
You ok hun?
No. I don't like fuckwits who misrepresent people. I spend all my time on here trying to be straight and factual and attacking both sides when they misrepresent. You clearly have no interest in the truth. You are pretty much the embodiment of what is wrong with political debate in this country.
You're projecting.
The interesting part of the video is the first minute where Hannan clearly leaves all options open. I quoted the bit near the end in full because that was the except used in the tweet.
You don't quote it in full. He immediately explained what he wants and makes it clear that means being outside the EU. Or couldn't you actually be bothered to listen to the rest after you had your partial quote?
In private Dan Hannan must be as embarrassed by the Leave campaign's focus on immigration as you were. He has the misfortune of being publicly associated with it, but to go on TV and point blank refuse to admit that it was a major factor in the result just damages any credibility the rest of his arguments might have.
Hannan made a point of not associating himself with the immigration campaign and wrote extensively about how he was in favour of the EFTA solution which included freedom of movement. It is clearly why the campaigns kept him out of the way. Indeed lots of people were on here in the last few days of the campaign asking why he had not been used.
Your implication is that everyone who voted or campaigned for Leave, no matter what they said about immigration or how clear they were that it was not the issue for them is guilty by association. That includes me and everyone else on here who supported Leave.
It is a pretty stupid position to take.
Mind you at least you have not tried to defend your partial quoting of Hannan about EU membership. I assume like Scott you realise you fucked up there and are trying to deflect the debate elsewhere.
@Conorpope: Emergency Labour NEC meeting called for Thursday
@PolhomeEditor: The Labour plotters' big bazooka is the resignation of the whips' office, paralysing the opposition. Could happen tonight or tomorrow.
The NEC is key. They decide who gets on the leadership ballot paper. I am not sure this is something the courts would go near, given the way that Labour is set up.
Cobblers. It's exactly the kind of thing the Courts would go near, as they have already done many times in the past...
@patrickwintour: "In light of recent developments", Danny Blanchflower tells John McDonnell " it's over." More credibility shot. https://t.co/Uc1kg0lAPt
McDonnell cares as much about Labour as Corbyn does. They are getting close to what they have always dreamed of - its destruction as a bourgeois apologist for capitalism and the enslavement of the proletariat. They are not giving up now.
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
Yes. Leaving aside my own personal circumstances (which I really don't want to discuss at the mo) a woman in my office who was due to complete on Friday has been informed by her buyers that they are pausing to think about the implications. Whether "pausing" means "not going to proceed" or "hold on a minute, let me think" is not known to me nor her, so this may yet be a hiccup instead of a fallen-thru sale, but it is a source of some concern to the woman in question.
Who gives a F what you think. Even if Scotland quits we need England and London in the EEA/single market. I suspect economic forces are soon going to make that very clear and apparent to the voters.
You Brexit, you bought it.
England cannot enter the EEA without free movement and the people of England have said NO! I'm not sure what you're missing here. 54% of England voted no and all the evidence points to that being dominated by the desire to end free movement.
The deal is done, you can't wish away the consequences.
@Conorpope: Emergency Labour NEC meeting called for Thursday
@PolhomeEditor: The Labour plotters' big bazooka is the resignation of the whips' office, paralysing the opposition. Could happen tonight or tomorrow.
The NEC is key. They decide who gets on the leadership ballot paper. I am not sure this is something the courts would go near, given the way that Labour is set up.
Cobblers. It's exactly the kind of thing the Courts would go near, as they have already done many times in the past...
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
Given that you want to break my country up, I won't take your advice on what's best for my country.
We're not throwing coins into a wishing well.
The decision has been made, the electorate has spoken. This cannot be undone or wished away. Your suggestion - that the UK joins the EEA and quickly - would mean the absolute hammering of the Tories and Labour at the next elections. It could result in civil disobedience in the interim as well. It would be that big a decision.
If you want to keep the UK together you need a better idea. The one you have come up with is an utter fantasy which is completely unworkable.
If you can't come up with a viable idea, then it is time to accept the outcome and face up to making the dissolution of the UK as smooth and quick as possible for everyone's economic sake.
I hope the Lowlands are able to liberate themselves from their central belt oppressors soon.
And yet enjoys substantial cross party support as witnessed by the failed pre-election government coup.
Meh. I think that was because there were a bunch of people who objected to a ham-fisted assault on the Office of the Speaker by the government, not because people like Bercow specifically.
Perhaps so but it's striking that most of Bercows's critics are those bitter that Bercow was a "Cameronite" before Dave was even in the Commons.
Cut past that bile and the regular Daily Mail crap and Bercow is actually a rather decent and reforming Speaker even if given to a dash of pomposity.
Oh, and perhaps as a sign of my mental infirmity at the moment, I'm seriously considering joining the LibDems. I considered joining either the Lib Dems or Conservatives after the last GE, but am now leaning heavily towards the LDs.
We need an effective opposition in England and Wales, and Labour's too busy opposing itself atm.
Didn't think I'd ever say this but I am pondering the same but from the ex-Labour direction. I will rejoin for £3 to vote for the next leader but if Corbyn prevails then I'm off.
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
Yes. Leaving aside my own personal circumstances (which I really don't want to discuss at the mo) a woman in my office who was due to complete on Friday has been informed by her buyers that they are pausing to think about the implications. Whether "pausing" means "not going to proceed" or "hold on a minute, let me think" is not known to me nor her, so this may yet be a hiccup instead of a fallen-thru sale, but it is a source of some concern to the woman in question.
Surely an easy excuse - or indeed a valuable opportunity for people to look hard at some of the biggest financial decisions of their lives. The exception is the top end of the market where I am sure Brexit has a more direct impact.
Who gives a F what you think. Even if Scotland quits we need England and London in the EEA/single market. I suspect economic forces are soon going to make that very clear and apparent to the voters.
You Brexit, you bought it.
England cannot enter the EEA without free movement and the people of England have said NO! I'm not sure what you're missing here. 54% of England voted no and all the evidence points to that being dominated by the desire to end free movement.
The deal is done, you can't wish away the consequences.
They have not said no. They said no to the EU. Anything else is a matter for debate. The polls show there is string support for EFTA membership even when it is explained it would include freedom of movement.
Considering most of our politicians are behaving like idiots that does rather nail the were all doomed meme.
Dead Cat Bounce?
Look, I don't want to be the sad, ranting Cassandra in the corner, but day to day movements in the market are nothing compared to the mood music of companies not investing and banks relocating and big infrastructure projects cancelled and all the rest.
It's like looking at the tea leaves, to see your future, when the tea room is possibly burning down.
Don't forget 'graduates not getting jobzzzz' because we all know they were walking into them before.
And the brand new invention of racist dickheads, forged orc like from the bowels of Brexit Middle Earth.
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
The referendum question was:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
This method was used for the Remain campaign’s internal polling, and led to Populus’s day-of-voting poll showing a 55-45 victory for Remain (we don’t include it in our averages as we don’t consider it a proper poll). "
Mr Cameron did two panicky press conferences in the last week of the campaign. Did they perhaps start using a different pollster?
Who gives a F what you think. Even if Scotland quits we need England and London in the EEA/single market. I suspect economic forces are soon going to make that very clear and apparent to the voters.
You Brexit, you bought it.
England cannot enter the EEA without free movement and the people of England have said NO! I'm not sure what you're missing here. 54% of England voted no and all the evidence points to that being dominated by the desire to end free movement.
The deal is done, you can't wish away the consequences.
They have not said no. They said no to the EU. Anything else is a matter for debate. The polls show there is string support for EFTA membership even when it is explained it would include freedom of movement.
I did say that it was my impression based on the evidence I've seen.
Are you really suggesting there is a reasonable argument where the UK can implement EEA membership and freedom of movement without the Tory and Labour parties being destroyed by the Kippers? I don't see how that can happen.
HS2: it all depends on Euston. It needs doing right, yet just that small area could easily sink billions. I still have not seen anything disproving the need for capacity enhancement, and the utter failure of the WCML upgrade ten years ago shows that capacity is hard to increase on working railways.
I don't know a lot about rail infrastructure. I understand there is widespread agreement on increasing capacity. I am also led to understand that a large part of HS2's cost comes from the engineering challenges you face if you want to make the trains really fast.
Something beyond my ken: if you are faced with budget limitations, and capacity is the main issue, why not just make the trains "quite fast" instead? We are talking about distances much smaller than spanning France or Spain, so the difference between "really fast" and "quite fast" won't translate into that many minutes of journey time, which (to my layman's eyes) doesn't seem to affect the fundamental business plan.
Usually there is something more subtle going on that a know-nothing like me is missing, but it does smell a bit "grand project" and there's rarely much gap between that and a white elephant.
I think there's a section(s) on this in one of he HS2 reports: from memory, the faster trains go, the fewer you can fit on any section of line (mainly due to braking distances). However, having slower-speed and faster-speed services on the same track reduces capacity much more. Therefore you might as well go for trains gong fast at roughly the same speed. And if you're doing that, you make them go fast. Especially as that makes them more competitive against air services.
There are many problems with this: one is that you need long multi-track sections to allow stopping services to get up to line speed before they join the main line. This is a positive disincentive to having stopping stations.
But there's a reason why so many countries opt for high-speed rail. And it's not just for civic pride.
(I could go into how much of the wheel-rail interaction required for high-speed rail was developed at Derby in the 1950s and 1960s (*) and then given away to Japan, France et al. But I'll just raise my blood pressure).
I can recommend reading HS2's reports, and especially the ones (?Atkins?) that compare it to rival proposals.
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
The referendum question was:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Dissolve the United Kingdom and the referendum result becomes null and void. A velvet divorce with both parts staying in the EU would be the best scenario for the whole country.
I'm with @RodCrosby - if an interested party wants to challenge the NEC's interpretation of its own rules, the courts will hear the case and decide it.
It would make the Labour party look still more ridiculous but I suppose that barely matters at present.
This is now just a price on her beating Corbyn head-to-head, assuming no resignation. Looks on the big side to me - though will sign-ups be allowed during the election?
This is why we need to move to EEA/Norway NOW. Within months max. Not when the fucking Tories get their new leader in place in 2019, and then decides he doesn't want the single market anyhow.
As AEP said in the Telegraph, Brexit can be fine, indeed good, if we handle it correctly. If it is mishandled it could be disastrous.
If the UK implements anything which involves freedom of movement, then it will absolutely destroy the Conservatives and in all likelihood will take Labour down with them.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
The referendum question was:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Dissolve the United Kingdom and the referendum result becomes null and void.
It wasn't "Should Scotland remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" or "Should England remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?".
Comments
Once they infect, they are difficult to get rid off and it involves a lot of pain.
*innocent face*
Of course the big question is was it Dave's mistake or George's
@krishgm: neighbour's house sale just fell through with buyers citing Brexit economic fears. Anyone else hearing such things?
If the split happens are you up for a bet which of the 2 does best.
As SO and I both say both will lose out but I think Corbyn Lab beats Progress Lab.
@PolhomeEditor: The Labour plotters' big bazooka is the resignation of the whips' office, paralysing the opposition. Could happen tonight or tomorrow.
Put simply, I don't trust him and I don't think he's up to the job.
I think he'll promise anything to anyone to get to the top job, and then do whatever he finds most politically expedient when he gets there.
When I see him clarifying he wants serious reforms to free movement claiming he was "tired" before, and then see Soames come out for him enthusiastically hours later, I smell a giant rat.
I think a Farage government (which would be the outcome) is far more worrying a thought than not being in the EEA.
The decision has been made, the UK voted out to end free movement. Now let's get on with the job of dissolving the UK so we can all move on as separate nations.
"One result of that report was an extraordinary method of ‘weighting by social attitude’ which essentially pushes a poll result to a previously known poll of social attitudes. As attitudes to the EU are social attitudes, it was a bizarre idea with no precedent in polling science (you might as well force-weight a sample to previously known EU Referendum attitudes). This method was used for the Remain campaign’s internal polling, and led to Populus’s day-of-voting poll showing a 55-45 victory for Remain (we don’t include it in our averages as we don’t consider it a proper poll). "
Of course no one on PB swallowed the line of ABs are going to win this for REMAIN brieifng from populus/Cooper?
Utterly pointless. I don't believe it. Others will come forward.
Confirmed: Conservative party board have pushed back leadership deadline to September 9th, after 1922 recommended 2nd - new PM by then
So Mike's on holiday when the result is out.
Confidence is low; no wonder when there have been staff and friends crying because they feel unwelcome.
And n pathetic safe-area cries of 'Wacist!' can change that.
How could any supporter of democracy not like that.
Lab splitters not so much!
38m40s into the programme below.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07h2vc6
It does not want want to renew it's contract. It is the 5th best player in the world.
The EU's offer? 430m people and 12% of global GDP.
The rest of the world? 7bn people and 85% of global GDP.
The decision has been made, the electorate has spoken. This cannot be undone or wished away. Your suggestion - that the UK joins the EEA and quickly - would mean the absolute hammering of the Tories and Labour at the next elections. It could result in civil disobedience in the interim as well. It would be that big a decision.
If you want to keep the UK together you need a better idea. The one you have come up with is an utter fantasy which is completely unworkable.
If you can't come up with a viable idea, then it is time to accept the outcome and face up to making the dissolution of the UK as smooth and quick as possible for everyone's economic sake.
Apparently, none of this is happening. I am supposed to have made up one of our marketing team being called a Polack and told to fuck off home.
Your implication is that everyone who voted or campaigned for Leave, no matter what they said about immigration or how clear they were that it was not the issue for them is guilty by association. That includes me and everyone else on here who supported Leave.
It is a pretty stupid position to take.
Mind you at least you have not tried to defend your partial quoting of Hannan about EU membership. I assume like Scott you realise you fucked up there and are trying to deflect the debate elsewhere.
Looks like the splitters haven't thought this through at all to me
England cannot enter the EEA without free movement and the people of England have said NO! I'm not sure what you're missing here. 54% of England voted no and all the evidence points to that being dominated by the desire to end free movement.
The deal is done, you can't wish away the consequences.
Cut past that bile and the regular Daily Mail crap and Bercow is actually a rather decent and reforming Speaker even if given to a dash of pomposity.
With experts like these ...
And the brand new invention of racist dickheads, forged orc like from the bowels of Brexit Middle Earth.
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
i) Prevent Corbyn from running and watch him and the unions break from the party.
ii) Let him run, watch him win the election, then 170 MPs break away to form Progressive Labour (or something along those lines).
This week 80 Tory MPs wrote telling Cameron to stay so he resigned & 170 Labour MPs told Corbyn to go so he's staying. KEEP UP AT THE BACK.
Are you really suggesting there is a reasonable argument where the UK can implement EEA membership and freedom of movement without the Tory and Labour parties being destroyed by the Kippers? I don't see how that can happen.
Mark D'Arcy
@DArcyTiP
53m
John Baron MP says he's taking soundings, has been asked to consider leadership run; not yet committed to running. Sorry if overstated
"people are saying angela eagle's the solution."
"..."
It would make the Labour party look still more ridiculous but I suppose that barely matters at present.
"Should Scotland remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" or
"Should England remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?".