I doubt that would work, for many reasons. Not the least of which is that the plans for the London to Birmingham section are probably two or three years ahead of those for the northern sections. And this occurred because the major reasons for doing it are capacity constraints on the southern section.
Also, HS3 (or whatever they're calling it) might cause the plans for the northern section to be slightly altered. It'd be good if HS2's northern branches and HS3 actually complemented each other. It'd be (literal) joined-up thinking.
(ISTR they've done this at a stations on Crossrail (Tottenham Court Road?) where it has been constructed to allow Crossrail 2 later without causing as much inconvenience to passengers)
The only reason HIgh Speed Two is needed is because some idiot built three monster size new towns between London and Rugby meaning the West Coast Main Line is full and a relief line is needed.
If you build one you build it to be fast. No brainer.
However there is case other than political to build it north of Crewe and the eastern branch to leeds via east midlands is repeating the folly of the great central duplicate route and will be little if at all faster to many city centres served by the Midland and East Coast lines all of which have plenty of capacity other than at pinch points such as welwyn viaduct.
It is now becoming obvious that the costs of building it for 250mph rather than 180mph are prohibitive.
Build london to crewe at 180mph and spend the rest on the existing network is logical and outside the EU we will be able to do just that.
Speaking of the Great Central, there is now no rail service north of Aylesbury Vale (save for Quainton Road specials in May and August Bank Holidays), and no direct connection between Rugby and Leicester.
East West will link Aylesbury and Rugby again soon.
Ironically they shut the useful Rugby to Leicester Midland line on the grounds it was a duplicate route and people could use the great central. Then shut that six years later!
Big impromptu demonstration at Westminster in support of the EU on Channel 4 news right now, Jon Snow quite taken aback by it. The rise in civil disorder that I have warned about showing its first signs of germination.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
Violence on the streets of Sunderland maybe. Most Londoners would be out in the streets celebrating.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
Surely you're not surprised by that.
They're desperate for stock market falls and factory closures.
I don't think there is any doubt at all that the Labour membership would rather have a Tory government than a Labour one led by anyone other than Jeremy Corbyn. In other words, they would prefer a Tory government. That is their prerogative, but hopefully as the party withers and dies some of them at least may reflect on just how badly they have let down the people that labour came into being to represent. I doubt it though. They will be self-righteous and selfish tot he very end.
The only problem with your argument is LAB PLP is more out of touch with LAB voters than Corbyn.
Even Foot smashed the SDP electorally
Resulting is a further 14 years of Tory rule
Yes, I acknowledge Labour voters are extremely keen on an open door immigration policy, while being very pro-IRA and pro-Hamas, and intensely anti-Trident. They are also utterly disdainful of patriotism. Alongside Corbyn himself, I'd say that Emily Thornberry is most in touch with ordinary Labour voters - as she has proved time and again.
Which is why she's just been promoted to Corbyn's right hand (wo)man no less at THAT Shadow Cabinet meeting this afternoon.
I doubt that would work, for many reasons. Not the least of which is that the plans for the London to Birmingham section are probably two or three years ahead of those for the northern sections. And this occurred because the major reasons for doing it are capacity constraints on the southern section.
Also, HS3 (or whatever they're calling it) might cause the plans for the northern section to be slightly altered. It'd be good if HS2's northern branches and HS3 actually complemented each other. It'd be (literal) joined-up thinking.
(ISTR they've done this at a stations on Crossrail (Tottenham Court Road?) where it has been constructed to allow Crossrail 2 later without causing as much inconvenience to passengers)
The only reason HIgh Speed Two is needed is because some idiot built three monster size new towns between London and Rugby meaning the West Coast Main Line is full and a relief line is needed.
If you build one you build it to be fast. No brainer.
However there is case other than political to build it north of Crewe and the eastern branch to leeds via east midlands is repeating the folly of the great central duplicate route and will be little if at all faster to many city centres served by the Midland and East Coast lines all of which have plenty of capacity other than at pinch points such as welwyn viaduct.
It is now becoming obvious that the costs of building it for 250mph rather than 180mph are prohibitive.
Build london to crewe at 180mph and spend the rest on the existing network is logical and outside the EU we will be able to do just that.
Is it really anything to do with the EU or is blaming that just straw-catching?
No I was being serious. Booker has banged on about it on several occasions.
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
It kinda was though.
Remain said it would screw trade, and leave said it would end all immigration.
And people voted for it. Lots of them
The people who voted out are much more likely to be economically inactive. They can cope with screwing trade a lot more thanthose of working age.
Carolyn McCall told Channel 4 News that it “remains to be seen” whether the budget carrier would keep its HQ at Luton airport, where it has been based since it was founded in 1995.
“What I have said is that Luton is a massive base for us and we wouldn’t be moving lock, stock and barrel from Luton,” she added. “So at the moment we know that Luton will remain Luton in terms of large numbers of people.”
No one is going to talk about moving until they know what the government is going to seek. If it is EFTA/EEA then no one is going to bother leaving since we'd be in the single market (as well as Horizon 2020, the single European sky and retain the financial passport).
They are all going to talk about it so that they get what they want.
Yes, sorry. That's what I meant. Look at what HSBC achieved in reducing the bank levy with their protracted HQ investigation.
Well of course. Our tax base hasn't recovered from '08 yet. There is a strong negotiating position. And now Single Market access is at threat the risk they are bluffing is lower. Which makes it harder to call.
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to suppo
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Again, the irony is that an SDP v2 would be based exactly on the principles behind the "Remain" campaign -- the campaign that just got hammered by the voters.
For all the Labour moderates' asserting (without evidence) that they know how to win elections, their mixture of economic conservatism/cultural liberalism has never been less popular with the country.
Remain did win 16m+ votes, which is more than any party has ever done. Now, granted, a lot of it might have been grudging support but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken tchanged.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
Whereas everyone I know who voted Leave are even more convinced that it was the right thing to do and this stretches from the factory floor to director level.
Do you really think anyone in the midlands or North or Wales is going to do anything other than laugh about a risk to London property prices or City bonuses ?
I have to go with that to some extent, Most of the Midlanders Ive spoken to are quite sanguine, the threats from CEOs get the response well they were going to do that anyway.
If theres a message in the mood music it's that our politcal and business elite get their jobs to deliver wealth for all and not just themselves. if they cant deliver that then they should bugger off.
The peasants have revolted and while we may yet still end up in a EU type arrangement I can only hope the kicking the establishment have had is branded in to their souls so they remember why they get the privileges they do.
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
If the UK makes progress on free trade with Canada, Australia, Japan, the US, Mexico, India etc. fear will become palpable.
@DPJHodges: Told "definitely not true" it's been decided Angela Eagle will be the one to run against Corbyn.
CRIED OFF
John do you acknowledge that there are people in the labour party who are neither Corbynites nor right-wing Blairites?
Of course. I think Burnhams level of support in last leadership election probably falls into that category
I wish I had the luxury of being able to support Corbyn but I would like us to win an election among the general public and that is never, ever going to happen with him as leader. And if the Tories keep winning your pension will be protected but my generation won't be.
Ed Miliband was too left wing and laughed at for saying New Labour didn't overspend. Wait 'til we go into a GE with a leader who thinks New Labour didn't spend enough.
You are entitled to your opinion.
if you think Ed was too left wing
Perhaps you could outline which of his policies was too left wing for you
Not for me, for the public.
I remember the town hall debate in Leeds where Ed was openly mocked and laughed at when he denied that Labour had over-spent in its time in office.
So in terms of policy I would say that his policy on tax and spending was too left wing.
You don't believe in anthropogenic climate change?
I believe the climate is changing, I also believe that this country has done more than its fair share of emissions reductions. Our per capita emissions are lower than pre-industrialisation now. We can't be asked for more than that since it has cost us our heavy industry.
That sounds astonishingly unlikely. Do you have a link for that?
I saw a picture on here iirc, I'll try and dig it up.
I'd appreciate it, given that nowadays most of us lug a ton-and-a-half of steel around with us for many miles a day and fly regularly. It's hard to imagine your average peasant labourer achieving the same emissions quota.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
I would love a soft landing post-Brexit vote but I just can't see how. Everything I am seeing and hearing via work looks bad. Luckily, we are in the very fortunate position of doing most of our billing in US$ and Euros and having a very large US and Asian client base, which is what got us through 2008/09 relatively (though not completely) unscathed. But I don't think we are typical.
I doubt that would work, for many reasons. Not the least of which is that the plans for the London to Birmingham section are probably two or three years ahead of those for the northern sections. And this occurred because the major reasons for doing it are capacity constraints on the southern section.
(ISTR they've done this at a stations on Crossrail (Tottenham Court Road?) where it has been constructed to allow Crossrail 2 later without causing as much inconvenience to passengers)
The only reason HIgh Speed Two is needed is because some idiot built three monster size new towns between London and Rugby meaning the West Coast Main Line is full and a relief line is needed.
If you build one you build it to be fast. No brainer.
However there is case other than political to build it north of Crewe and the eastern branch to leeds via east midlands is repeating the folly of the great central duplicate route and will be little if at all faster to many city centres served by the Midland and East Coast lines all of which have plenty of capacity other than at pinch points such as welwyn viaduct.
It is now becoming obvious that the costs of building it for 250mph rather than 180mph are prohibitive.
Build london to crewe at 180mph and spend the rest on the existing network is logical and outside the EU we will be able to do just that.
We're spending (from memory) £30-odd billion on the conventional existing network over the current control period (CP6?) of five years. There are ever-decreasing returns, as we saw with the WCML upgrade, which delivered less than promised (e.g. 125 MPH instead of 140 MPH) was years late (with the consequent hassle for passengers) and cost about ten times the predicted price.
And that's leaving aside the fact that politicians rarely if ever spend the money saved on cancelling/ reducing a project on related projects; they just grab it back.
As for the line speed: I'm fairly agnostic about that. It is covered in the report(s), and there reasoning seemed sensible. I could be convinced.
But as I've said passim, Euston's the real problem. It's currently a run-down hole; it'll be a money pit for HS2.
Ouch. That attempted pun's made my head hurt.
Dont fall into Browns investment trap. The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals.
You are right about Euston. Concentrating all fast intercity services to the north on one line and terminus is crazy - another reason to cancel the eastern leg and spend the money adding capacity and speed upgrades to ECML and MML instead.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
Surely you're not surprised by that.
They're desperate for stock market falls and factory closures.
Just as they were in 1992 and 1999.
I'd say many of the same people were looking for the same in 2010. Though I don't see much on here. Some, but most want to see us continue growing.
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
Yes
If Boris stands as the Immigration candidate, and May stands as the Economic candidate, she wins the leadership and a GE
@DPJHodges: Told "definitely not true" it's been decided Angela Eagle will be the one to run against Corbyn.
CRIED OFF
John do you acknowledge that there are people in the labour party who are neither Corbynites nor right-wing Blairites?
Of course. I think Burnhams level of support in last leadership election probably falls into that category
I wish I had the luxury of being able to support Corbyn but I would like us to win an election among the general public and that is never, ever going to happen with him as leader. And if the Tories keep winning your pension will be protected but my generation won't be.
Ed Miliband was too left wing and laughed at for saying New Labour didn't overspend. Wait 'til we go into a GE with a leader who thinks New Labour didn't spend enough.
You are entitled to your opinion.
if you think Ed was too left wing
Perhaps you could outline which of his policies was too left wing for you
True. If you looked at the 2015 manifestos you would have thought the positions were the other way around as far as the main parties were concerned.
I take Nick Palmer's view- that the centre left need to articulate something to reach out.
Snigger ye not - Liberal Democrats are a mighty resilient bunch They've been here before and didn't do a bad job in government with the Tories. In fact many of the legacies that Cameron can look back to were Lib Dem policies
Sorry, you didn't just do 'not a bad job', you did a great job in government. The country owes the LD party a huge degree of respect for that. Being a minority partner in your non-preferred coalition, and carrying that government to the full term was an incredible achievement.
Whatever the LD ills everyone in the party should really hold their heads up high in that they did something difficult and unprecedented - and moreover did it well.
I'm not likely to vote LD (but please persuade me), and I think Farron is rather poor, but I will always hold your party in the greatest esteem in that you showed yourselves capable of making an enormously brave choice, and delivering on that choice.
Tim Farron comes across as lightweight on the national picture but he is a phenomenal campaigner. You only have to look at what he has done in his own constituency to see what he has achieved and you see why he is highly regarded by the grass-roots. His style of community politics is re-building the party from the bottom up "Pick a ward - and win it". We've done it three times in this area of rural Dorset and won three district council by-elections from the Tories.
I picked up a converstion on the Lib Dem Twitter feed this morning where someone had tweeted a criticism of the EU policy - the first respondent was Tim himself engaging with the guy and asking him to contact him personally...that makes a difference.
I would like to see Norman Lamb take a more prominent role nationally and I think the spotlight on big problems building up in the social care sector will boost his profile and it was good to see Nick Clegg find his voice again in recent times.
Things are looking up certainly - 24 new members for our local party in a week. All will get a visit over the weekend and that's how the party will rebuild itself.
I wasn't bigging you up to be nice you know. I rather hope you don't succeed. You're in a great party though, with a great tradition, and whilst that party has your support you should be proud of that allegiance.
Clegg really is an asset. I'm a Tory, but I'd vote for Clegg as "politician of the last ten years".
Meanwhile Labour has ills beyond our imaginings. I wish them all the nasty stubbed-toes in the world, but perhaps not this.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
Richard, I eventually voted remain, and I said on Friday I accept the result of the vote. So did others on here.
But you can't just wave away the real effects the vote is already having. I'm seeing it with my own eyes.
A friend - a well-paid and well-integrated immigrant - says she had a nightmare of someone setting fire to her house. It's never happened before, and it's a direct result of the tone of the leave debate. An overreaction? Perhaps. But it's real.
But feel free to ignore it, or disbelieve me.
I don't disbelieve you but we cannot run policy based upon people's unreasonable fears.
Labour moved to the left when Brown was running for PM, and their level of support fell.
So the party moved further to the left under Miliband "Let's have a go at offering real centre-left policies". Their level of support fell even further.
So the party moved to the outer limits of Labour politics, to the extent that SWP types came into the party. "Miliband was an aberration, Corbyn offers authentic left-wing policies". The level of support, at the ballot box, has been even worse under Corbyn than under Miliband or Brown or Blair.
But sure, maybe it's all a coincidence and the public are lying when they say they won't vote for a left wing labour party, and their actions are lying when they haven't so far
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to suppo
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Again, the irony is that an SDP v2 would be based exactly on the principles behind the "Remain" campaign -- the campaign that just got hammered by the voters.
For all the Labour moderates' asserting (without evidence) that they know how to win elections, their mixture of economic conservatism/cultural liberalism has never been less popular with the country.
Remain did win 16m+ votes, which is more than any party has ever done. Now, granted, a lot of it might have been grudging support but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken tchanged.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
Whereas everyone I know who voted Leave are even more convinced that it was the right thing to do and this stretches from the factory floor to director level.
Do you really think anyone in the midlands or North or Wales is going to do anything other than laugh about a risk to London property prices or City bonuses ?
I have to go with that to some extent, Most of the Midlanders Ive spoken to are quite sanguine, the threats from CEOs get the response well they were going to do that anyway.
If theres a message in the mood music it's that our politcal and business elite get their jobs to deliver wealth for all and not just themselves. if they cant deliver that then they should bugger off.
The peasants have revolted and while we may yet still end up in a EU type arrangement I can only hope the kicking the establishment have had is branded in to their souls so they remember why they get the privileges they do.
There's certainly been an increase in the contempt in which the London 'elite' are held.
Its great that the charlatans are been exposed for all to see.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
Well my personal preference would just be to say we won't enact art 50. now - but that isn't the will of the people as you say. But we can't start negotiations to join EEA before we've fully left the EU. Certainly that seemed to be the EU's line. Good job we have good negotiators in Gov't.
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
May is awfully quiet at the moment. Any news of when she'll declare?
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
Yes
If Boris stands as the Immigration candidate, and May stands as the Economic candidate, she wins the leadership and a GE
In a landslide
Then she makes Boris the chancellor and he has to deliver Leave's prospectus. It's a win/win. We stay in the single market, we are no longer in the political union, Labour get destroyed up north by UKIP as the leave vote doesn't immediately lower immigration, Boris destroys himself as he is unable to deliver the NHS money as promised. Theresa is looking more and more like Michael Corleone at the end of the Godfather right now.
"Natalie Bennett calls for General Election in November to deliver a people's government
Green Party leader Natalie Bennett has called for a General Election in November to select a Government to lead Britain into a decision on its future relationship with the European Union. The leader of the Green Party, who campaigned for Britain to remain a member of the EU, is calling for a period of calm and reflection."
Why do I suspect the people will fail to deliver a 'people's government' once again? After all, I've seen Greens claim to speak for the majority on what they get in the vote.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
It's not an option anymore.
Not sure the articles of damocles approach is viable, but it looks like we'll give it a go!
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
So your solution to the current uncertainty is to extend it for as long as you can. Good one Einstein.
"Natalie Bennett calls for General Election in November to deliver a people's government
Green Party leader Natalie Bennett has called for a General Election in November to select a Government to lead Britain into a decision on its future relationship with the European Union. The leader of the Green Party, who campaigned for Britain to remain a member of the EU, is calling for a period of calm and reflection."
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
I would love a soft landing post-Brexit vote but I just can't see how. Everything I am seeing and hearing via work looks bad. Luckily, we are in the very fortunate position of doing most of our billing in US$ and Euros and having a very large US and Asian client base, which is what got us through 2008/09 relatively (though not completely) unscathed. But I don't think we are typical.
Noone knows how this will turn out. I'm fairly sure that the last week isn't typical though.
We'll have a bumpy landing - but the bumps may well dislodge billion pound coins from the back of the sofa. (No use with a broken back I'll concede)
Make sure that's just England and Wales. Adams and Sturgeon are still sucking up to their EU bosses.
Yep. And the Scotch whisky industry currently faces HUGE tariffs in India. Which would inevitably come down in the event of a trade deal. MASSIVE market.
But of course, Scotland can go for Indy and feel very virtuous and non-bigotted inside the EU.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
So your solution to the current uncertainty is to extend it for as long as you can. Good one Einstein.
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to suppo
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Again, the irony is that an SDP v2 would be based exactly on ut of hand.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken tchanged.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
Whereas everyone I know who voted Leave y bonuses ?
I have to go with that to some exten do.
There's certainly been an increase in the contempt in which the London 'elite' are held.
Its great that the charlatans are been exposed for all to see.
Well ( and I hope Mr Meeks isnt on :-) ) theres no gain for the other regions in punishing London or dragging it down, were not the SNP.
But there is a strong case for better and serious economic engagement in the regions, Currently parties pay lip service to it or spin their way about. But most voters just want the bread and butter issues handled well and a prospering economy in their part of the world.
The post 1989 world has seen that decouple in the UK to the point where our "leaders" no longer view this as part of their role.
Labour moved to the left when Brown was running for PM, and their level of support fell.
So the party moved further to the left under Miliband "Let's have a go at offering real centre-left policies". Their level of support fell even further.
So the party moved to the outer limits of Labour politics, to the extent that SWP types came into the party. "Miliband was an aberration, Corbyn offers authentic left-wing policies". The level of support, at the ballot box, has been even worse under Corbyn than under Miliband or Brown or Blair.
But sure, maybe it's all a coincidence and the public are lying when they say they won't vote for a left wing labour party, and their actions are lying when they haven't so far
Has Corbyn not won every byelection and increase the number of LAB councillors compared to Eds high point of 2012
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
Yes
If Boris stands as the Immigration candidate, and May stands as the Economic candidate, she wins the leadership and a GE
In a landslide
I don't think it would be a landslide, but an almost female John Major candidate is perhaps what is needed right now and not a bohemian with no sense of direction.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
I think delaying Article 50 for too long will hang over the economy like a black cloud, ours and in the EU. We need a pre-negotiated settlement and then trigger article 50. Right now the EU is understandably upset at the leave vote, we need to let them calm down over the summer, let the new PM settle in and then let her(!) begin negotiating along with her new team, once an outline is reached then trigger article 50 and have a joint announcement over the timetable for our transition into EFTA and that we will remain a signitory to the EEA agreement and crucially for UK and EU businesses; in the single market, we will also pay into Horizon2020, the single European sky and a few other optional programmes like Erasmus.
Economic stability prioritised, no mention of the emergency brake, we can solve immigration by making the benefits system contribution based and invest in education and training.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I'd go for EU membership but with the amendments Dave got in his deal. If we still don't like it in a few years we can always have another vote.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
I'm sure that that is the big fear in EU circles as well, not that Brexit will cause chaos, but that it works and others follow our lead.
In PB circles too.
Its really sad to see so many posters wishing the country ill. Orwell wouldn't have been surprised though.
Make sure that's just England and Wales. Adams and Sturgeon are still sucking up to their EU bosses.
Of course India will be better off negotiating directly with the UK than the EU. We'll be in a much weaker negotiating position on our own and they'll get a better deal.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
I'm sure that that is the big fear in EU circles as well, not that Brexit will cause chaos, but that it works and others follow our lead.
In PB circles too.
Its really sad to see so many posters wishing the country ill. Orwell wouldn't have been surprised though.
It's really sad to see so many posters assuming people worried the country may go ill or think that it will, think they are wishing it will go ill, even if they say otherwise.
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
May is awfully quiet at the moment. Any news of when she'll declare?
If she doesn't then Boris may as well run un-opposed and that is the worst of all worlds, the party will stay split and the public too.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I'd go for EU membership but with the amendments Dave got in his deal. If we still don't like it in a few years we can always have another vote.
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF thise hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron' Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decEW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
Well if youre middle management
1. your gaffer will be hiding half the picture from you 2. what you think is a priority wont be or will change on the next corporate whim 3. your boss inst worried abour you he's worried about his bonus
And I say that in all honesty as someone who has sat in Boardrooms for the last 20 years.
Do your life a favour and move to somewhere you enjoy working.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I'd go for EU membership but with the amendments Dave got in his deal. If we still don't like it in a few years we can always have another vote.
Dave's deal has gone. Formally voided by both the European Council and Parliament. The status quo ante isn't an option.
Make sure that's just England and Wales. Adams and Sturgeon are still sucking up to their EU bosses.
Of course India will be better off negotiating directly with the UK than the EU. We'll be in a much weaker negotiating position on our own and they'll get a better deal.
Not really, we are a huge consumer market and Indian companies have had a lot of success in the UK and vice versa. I think a deal with the EU just wouldn't be possible, while a narrow deal between the UK and India could be delivered and slowly expanded once in place.
Make sure that's just England and Wales. Adams and Sturgeon are still sucking up to their EU bosses.
Of course India will be better off negotiating directly with the UK than the EU. We'll be in a much weaker negotiating position on our own and they'll get a better deal.
Yes, this is the fairly obvious reason for various countries enthusiasm for free trade agreements with the UK - you can imagine that the US one will involve privatising the NHS and selling all our data to Google. None of this seems to occur to any of the bright sparks who voted Leave however.
The Brexit camp seems split on immigration, almost as much as Boris is on his own. If he does become leader then he might be forced into going down the anti-immigration route, which would be economic suicide. May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
Yes
If Boris stands as the Immigration candidate, and May stands as the Economic candidate, she wins the leadership and a GE
In a landslide
People always think they'll beat Boris. Then he wins.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
I think delaying Article 50 for too long will hang over the economy like a black cloud, ours and in the EU. We need a pre-negotiated settlement and then trigger article 50. Right now the EU is understandably upset at the leave vote, we need to let them calm down over the summer, let the new PM settle in and then let her(!) begin negotiating along with her new team, once an outline is reached then trigger article 50 and have a joint announcement over the timetable for our transition into EFTA and that we will remain a signitory to the EEA agreement and crucially for UK and EU businesses; in the single market, we will also pay into Horizon2020, the single European sky and a few other optional programmes like Erasmus.
Economic stability prioritised, no mention of the emergency brake, we can solve immigration by making the benefits system contribution based and invest in education and training.
Good luck with that. We wouldn't be in this mess if that was easy....
There is a huge Remain demo in London which does not have anything like the police numbers necessary from the pictures on C4. Many thousands of people, perhaps three dozen cops who are not wearing riot gear.
Apparently it was cancelled due to lack of police but people have turned up anyway. There could be an interesting night in central London.
Up to a third of voters have signed the petition calling for another referendum in some London constituencies like Hornsey & Wood Green and Hackney North & Stoke Newington.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
I'm sure that that is the big fear in EU circles as well, not that Brexit will cause chaos, but that it works and others follow our lead.
In PB circles too.
Its really sad to see so many posters wishing the country ill. Orwell wouldn't have been surprised though.
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
I am rapidly developing the opinion that the only thing that the Remainder crowd fear more than being right about all the post-Brexit doom and gloom is being wrong about it.
I'm sure that that is the big fear in EU circles as well, not that Brexit will cause chaos, but that it works and others follow our lead.
In PB circles too.
Its really sad to see so many posters wishing the country ill. Orwell wouldn't have been surprised though.
Those people who wished the UK ill were those racist fuckers who were told over again that Brexit would make us poorer, wouldn't do anything to sort out immigration, and marginalise our country in the world.....but heh ho, they were so fucking racist, and ignorant that they didn't care.
So, please, do not blame us.....blame people who voted Brexit.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I prefer the EFTA/EEA solution but if that is what we get I will forever believe we were tricked into leaving the EU because if Leave had honestly campaigned on the basis of keeping Freedom of Movement & continued contribution to the EU budget they would, without a doubt, have lost.
I don't really know whether those advocating EEA/EFTA really get that's how a lot off the 48% remainers will feel. It will poison politics in this country for years and that's before you start considering the Leavers that voted in order to end FoM. I don't honestly see any united moving forward for a very long time, there will be a long legacy of bitterness.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
And we'd lose all Cameron's concessions, and probably be back in a much worse position wrt the EU than we were last year.
The voters have voted. We should be fully out.
If we got for EEA/EFTA many people will be very, very unhappy. Perhaps even violence-on-the-streets-of-London unhappy. That's what Leave sold them.
We have no brilliant choices. We have a pretty decent choice if we act fast, and join the EEA/single market, promising the people a rethink and the rest of it on free movement when we see the scale of migration in that arrangement
Fully Out in one wrench could take 5-10% off our economy. Senseless. The vote from the people was LEAVE, it wasn't END ALL IMMIGRATION AND SCREW TRADE AS WELL
FFS - your lot won. As others have said from both sides - suck it up.
I voted Remain a few days and Labour last year as I am very pro-EU. I am gutted. I am concerned about the economy and the nervousness of being an immigrant right now. But life has to go on...
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What?
Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
So your solution to the current uncertainty is to extend it for as long as you can. Good one Einstein.
And what's your solution clever-cloggs?
1. Invoke Article 50.
2. Join EFTA and maintain access to the Single Market through the EEA.
-No-one has given me a job now I've graduated! -My skyscraper might not be built! -Someone I've talked to is worried! -Someone else I've talked to is thinking of moving to France! -No-one is certain whether they want to throw finance at my amazing newt-selling app start-up!
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
the EU is crapping itself, dont think otherwise.
I'm sure you are right about the EU....but when you have 500 million people and capitalism on your side, the odds are slightly in their favour.
Labour moved to the left when Brown was running for PM, and their level of support fell.
So the party moved further to the left under Miliband "Let's have a go at offering real centre-left policies". Their level of support fell even further.
So the party moved to the outer limits of Labour politics, to the extent that SWP types came into the party. "Miliband was an aberration, Corbyn offers authentic left-wing policies". The level of support, at the ballot box, has been even worse under Corbyn than under Miliband or Brown or Blair.
But sure, maybe it's all a coincidence and the public are lying when they say they won't vote for a left wing labour party, and their actions are lying when they haven't so far
That's very debateable. I think Labour's 2015 manifesto was more right-wing than any of Tony Blair's manifestos -- Blair never stood on a platform to pare back public spending and to be "tougher than the Tories on welfare", after all. Miliband occasionally throwing out some waffle about "responsible capitalism" doesn't mean much when the actual policies were all straight out of Progress pamphlets.
In any case, in 2016, we just got a test of the electoral success of the Labour "moderates"' formula in the EU Referendum -- the "Remain" campaign was designed by some of the leading "moderates" like Chuka Umunna and Emma Reynolds. The main principles (supporting the economic status quo, being the party of big business, being culturally liberal, being "internationalist") are exactly the principles that the "moderates" want Labour to follow. It failed spectacularly in the referendum, so why on earth would it be a good idea to model official Labour strategy on it?
Yep - I think we can all see the working class flocking to support Corbyn Labour's pro open door immigration, pro-IRA, pro-Hamas platform. When you are living in a dump and not earning enough to warm your house in winter solidarity with the Palestinians is what keeps you going.
Labour splitters have faired worse in the past.
When Lab splits which I now see as very likely.
We will find our if Lab or SDP 2 proves most popular.
You up for a bet when that point is reached?
Again, the irony is that an SDP v2 would be based exactly on the principles behind the "Remain" campaign -- the campaign that just got hammered by the voters.
For all the Labour moderates' asserting (without evidence) that they know how to win elections, their mixture of economic conservatism/cultural liberalism has never been less popular with the country.
Remain did win 16m+ votes, which is more than any party has ever done. Now, granted, a lot of it might have been grudging support but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Of the 10 LEAVERS I've spoken to in the last few days, since the vote, at least half are now having serious second thoughts. This ranges from my Dad's Cornish cleaner to posho London journos.
It's purely anecdotal, I know, but I reckon if a revote was held now it could be a simple switch: 52:48 win for REMAIN.
And this is before the economic flames now beginning to lick around London become remotely perceptible to most Britons out there, where it seems like nothing has changed.
In two or three months, IF this contagion spreads, then REMAIN could be 60/40 in public opinion and LEAVE politicians will be howlingly unpopular
I don't want this to happen, but you can see how, if it does happen, all of our politics will be upended. Boris could be hated.
Whereas everyone I know who voted Leave are even more convinced that it was the right thing to do and this stretches from the factory floor to director level.
Do you really think anyone in the midlands or North or Wales is going to do anything other than laugh about a risk to London property prices or City bonuses ?
Of course they won't and I don't blame them but where is the guarantee that it will stop there?
Just got out of a long old meeting at work. Is that deluded old Trot still in charge of the Labour Party? If you're being outperformed by Kezia Dugdale, then the game really is up, surely?
Snigger ye not - Liberal Democrats are a mighty resilient bunch They've been here before and didn't do a bad job in government with the Tories. In fact many of the legacies that Cameron can look back to were Lib Dem policies
Sorry, you didn't just do 'not a bad job', you did a great job in government. The country owes the LD party a huge degree of respect for that. Being a minority partner in your non-preferred coalition, and carrying that government to the full term was an incredible achievement.
Whatever the LD ills everyone in the party should really hold their heads up high in that they did something difficult and unprecedented - and moreover did it well.
I'm not likely to vote LD (but please persuade me), and I think Farron is rather poor, but I will always hold your party in the greatest esteem in that you showed yourselves capable of making an enormously brave choice, and delivering on that choice.
Tim Farron comes across as lightweight on the national picture but he is a phenomenal campaigner. You only have to look at what he has done in his own constituency to see what he has achieved and you see why he is highly regarded by the grass-roots. His style of community politics is re-building the party from the bottom up "Pick a ward - and win it". We've done it three times in this area of rural Dorset and won three district council by-elections from the Tories.
I picked up a converstion on the Lib Dem Twitter feed this morning where someone had tweeted a criticism of the EU policy - the first respondent was Tim himself engaging with the guy and asking him to contact him personally...that makes a difference.
I would like to see Norman Lamb take a more prominent role nationally and I think the spotlight on big problems building up in the social care sector will boost his profile and it was good to see Nick Clegg find his voice again in recent times.
Things are looking up certainly - 24 new members for our local party in a week. All will get a visit over the weekend and that's how the party will rebuild itself.
I wasn't bigging you up to be nice you know. I rather hope you don't succeed. You're in a great party though, with a great tradition, and whilst that party has your support you should be proud of that allegiance.
Clegg really is an asset. I'm a Tory, but I'd vote for Clegg as "politician of the last ten years".
Meanwhile Labour has ills beyond our imaginings. I wish them all the nasty stubbed-toes in the world, but perhaps not this.
And it looks likely that the number of new LibDem members since the 23rd will pass 10,000 before midnight tonight...
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
I think delaying Article 50 for too long will hang over the economy like a black cloud, ours and in the EU. We need a pre-negotiated settlement and then trigger article 50. Right now the EU is understandably upset at the leave vote, we need to let them calm down over the summer, let the new PM settle in and then let her(!) begin negotiating along with her new team, once an outline is reached then trigger article 50 and have a joint announcement over the timetable for our transition into EFTA and that we will remain a signitory to the EEA agreement and crucially for UK and EU businesses; in the single market, we will also pay into Horizon2020, the single European sky and a few other optional programmes like Erasmus.
Economic stability prioritised, no mention of the emergency brake, we can solve immigration by making the benefits system contribution based and invest in education and training.
Good luck with that. We wouldn't be in this mess if that was easy....
We can't avoid tough decisions. We're struggling to reduce the deficit by a significant amount because of that. It doesn't need to be an overnight change, it can be phased in.
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
the EU is crapping itself, dont think otherwise.
Yes, that's true. The EU is frit, as well. See the Poles calling for huge reform today.
We may still have enough leverage to get them to offer us a brake on Free Movement, then we can all breathe a sigh of relief and stay in, for now, after a revote. It's just about possible.
I guess it depends whose economy burns down quickest, between now and September.
I was thinking that on the tram home earlier, either both sides sit on the burning roof until one jumps off and gives in or we work together. I hope for the latter.
I really don't know Sean - I'm just a simple middle manager in a corporate.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
I think delaying Article 50 for too long will hang over the economy like a black cloud, ours and in the EU. We need a pre-negotiated settlement and then trigger article 50. Right now the EU is understandably upset at the leave vote, we need to let them calm down over the summer, let the new PM settle in and then let her(!) begin negotiating along with her new team, once an outline is reached then trigger article 50 and have a joint announcement over the timetable for our transition into EFTA and that we will remain a signitory to the EEA agreement and crucially for UK and EU businesses; in the single market, we will also pay into Horizon2020, the single European sky and a few other optional programmes like Erasmus.
Economic stability prioritised, no mention of the emergency brake, we can solve immigration by making the benefits system contribution based and invest in education and training.
Good luck with that. We wouldn't be in this mess if that was easy....
-No-one has given me a job now I've graduated! -My skyscraper might not be built! -Someone I've talked to is worried! -Someone else I've talked to is thinking of moving to France! -No-one is certain whether they want to throw finance at my amazing newt-selling app start-up!
DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE BREXITERS? DO YOU??
*Rest of Britain gets on with life*
Sorry, I don't find others' economic misfortune particularly funny.
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What? Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
Well, thank you kindly for asking...
At this point remaining in the EU would require a different deal with the EU, a second referendum, and a popular majority for that deal. Whilst all these things are feasible in theory, the logistics are against it: there is nobody in the EU and UK governments who is minded to construct such a deal, and nobody in the UK government who wishes to legislate for a second referendum, and so on. So it appears that Brexit is, however regrettable, inevitable unless something changes.
So we move from trying to save the ship to trying to choose the lifeboat. Passengers on a sinking ship should choose the nearest lifeboat, not the best. The EEA/EFTA deal has the inestimable advantage of already being in existence and seaworthy, and should therefore be the quickest to join. So we should join that. I am aware it has freedom of movement and is objectionable to many LEAVErs but this can be legitimately spun as a temporary measure to provide respite whilst a longer-lasting deal is assembled in the 2020's with due care.
My present concern is that there are currently no competent people in Government willing or able to do this, and the candidates for PM are unable or unwilling to do this.
Consequently at the moment the most likely outcome appears to be a lengthy renegotiation of everything with everybody, without the numbers or quality of personnel to do it competently.
Right ole bollox we've got ourselves into. The UK has whacked itself over the head with a huge, wrought iron frying ban. Right on the noggin. At the same time, the EU has put our nuts in a cracker.....and is slowly going to ease up the tension.
the EU is crapping itself, dont think otherwise.
Yes, that's true. The EU is frit, as well. See the Poles calling for huge reform today.
We may still have enough leverage to get them to offer us a brake on Free Movement, then we can all breathe a sigh of relief and stay in, for now. It's just about possible.
I guess it depends whose economy burns down quickest, between now and September.
I'm watching Merkel
Shes a serial compromiser and is currently leaving all her options open, If you hear something sympathetic to the UK youll hear something critical afterwards. She;s letting the dust settle.
Right now imo we have 2 options.
1. stay in but with some serious concessions on immigration controls. I think we have lost nothing fighting our corner and will come out with a degree of respect. If we stay in we lead the "confederates" against the union and say the model has to be integrate at your own pace if your people want to, Despite what the say half of Europe is shitting itself about losing its national identity and hate the commission straight jacket.
2, if theres no compromise then it's out EFTA\EEA doesnt really matter and we go out and do our damnedest to make the thing work and show the EU up if it cant keep pace. Any defectors are welcome. Germany just cant keep an empire together - it will go wrong and whole thing will break up.
Comments
Ironically they shut the useful Rugby to Leicester Midland line on the grounds it was a duplicate route and people could use the great central. Then shut that six years later!
They're desperate for stock market falls and factory closures.
Just as they were in 1992 and 1999.
It's catching, as I predicted...
Sounds another good speech from Trump.
If theres a message in the mood music it's that our politcal and business elite get their jobs to deliver wealth for all and not just themselves. if they cant deliver that then they should bugger off.
The peasants have revolted and while we may yet still end up in a EU type arrangement I can only hope the kicking the establishment have had is branded in to their souls so they remember why they get the privileges they do.
May is the better alternative, dull but beholden to no-one currently and she has at least run a government department.
https://twitter.com/ashleydITV/status/747864941311500288
I should have a try at this telling other posters what they think mullarky
SO thinks all people to the left of Blair are Marxist IRA supporters who cheered at the Brighton bombing.
See total bollox it really doesnt work tryiing to say what other people think SO
Australians already looking at the potential upsides; http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-australians-to-live-and-work-in-the-uk/news-story/57498d1e37421b48679c7157ccc2f531
I remember the town hall debate in Leeds where Ed was openly mocked and laughed at when he denied that Labour had over-spent in its time in office.
So in terms of policy I would say that his policy on tax and spending was too left wing.
You are right about Euston. Concentrating all fast intercity services to the north on one line and terminus is crazy - another reason to cancel the eastern leg and spend the money adding capacity and speed upgrades to ECML and MML instead.
If Boris stands as the Immigration candidate, and May stands as the Economic candidate, she wins the leadership and a GE
In a landslide
33mins Kez kicks ass.
Where has she been hiding that?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d35362a0-3c57-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0.html#axzz4CtynRFYR
South Korea want bi-lateral deal with UK;
http://www.wsj.com/articles/south-koreas-brexit-example-1466960252
I take Nick Palmer's view- that the centre left need to articulate something to reach out.
I have PMd you.
I guess we both are passionate about Lab and perhaps go too far at times.
Clegg really is an asset. I'm a Tory, but I'd vote for Clegg as "politician of the last ten years".
Meanwhile Labour has ills beyond our imaginings. I wish them all the nasty stubbed-toes in the world, but perhaps not this.
So the party moved further to the left under Miliband "Let's have a go at offering real centre-left policies". Their level of support fell even further.
So the party moved to the outer limits of Labour politics, to the extent that SWP types came into the party. "Miliband was an aberration, Corbyn offers authentic left-wing policies". The level of support, at the ballot box, has been even worse under Corbyn than under Miliband or Brown or Blair.
But sure, maybe it's all a coincidence and the public are lying when they say they won't vote for a left wing labour party, and their actions are lying when they haven't so far
Its great that the charlatans are been exposed for all to see.
Nice to see some positive news though.
Possibly kick Article 50 into the long grass and keep it there for a number of years - but I know the risks with that are huge but the risks with other options could be bigger.
We are in a huge mess - all self-inflicted.
Staying in the EU was and still is the best option IMHO.
Not sure the articles of damocles approach is viable, but it looks like we'll give it a go!
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/el6yejz7wn/TimesResults_160627_LabourLeadership.pdf
Should Corbyn resign? Should 49, should not 30. Current Labour Should 35, should not 54. 2015 Labour Should 49, Should not 39.
Angela Eagle supported by only 1% as best to replace him. Watson by 2%. Benn by 13%.
Or is it a just a government she approves of ?
We'll have a bumpy landing - but the bumps may well dislodge billion pound coins from the back of the sofa. (No use with a broken back I'll concede)
But of course, Scotland can go for Indy and feel very virtuous and non-bigotted inside the EU.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/as-markets-bemoan-brexit-brazil-beef-shippers-see-opportunity
Brazil seeks bi-lateral deal having endured slow progress with EU
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/business/2016/06/1786073-brazil-looks-to-negotiate-agreement-with-the-british-post-brexit.shtml
Economic stability prioritised, no mention of the emergency brake, we can solve immigration by making the benefits system contribution based and invest in education and training.
I'd go for EU membership but with the amendments Dave got in his deal. If we still don't like it in a few years we can always have another vote.
Its really sad to see so many posters wishing the country ill. Orwell wouldn't have been surprised though.
1. your gaffer will be hiding half the picture from you
2. what you think is a priority wont be or will change on the next corporate whim
3. your boss inst worried abour you he's worried about his bonus
And I say that in all honesty as someone who has sat in Boardrooms for the last 20 years.
Do your life a favour and move to somewhere you enjoy working.
But I'd prefer May.
Which PB posters are wishing the country ill?
Why don't you name names?
Come on. Names.
So, please, do not blame us.....blame people who voted Brexit.
I don't really know whether those advocating EEA/EFTA really get that's how a lot off the 48% remainers will feel. It will poison politics in this country for years and that's before you start considering the Leavers that voted in order to end FoM. I don't honestly see any united moving forward for a very long time, there will be a long legacy of bitterness.
2. Join EFTA and maintain access to the Single Market through the EEA.
-No-one has given me a job now I've graduated!
-My skyscraper might not be built!
-Someone I've talked to is worried!
-Someone else I've talked to is thinking of moving to France!
-No-one is certain whether they want to throw finance at my amazing newt-selling app start-up!
DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE BREXITERS? DO YOU??
*Rest of Britain gets on with life*
In any case, in 2016, we just got a test of the electoral success of the Labour "moderates"' formula in the EU Referendum -- the "Remain" campaign was designed by some of the leading "moderates" like Chuka Umunna and Emma Reynolds. The main principles (supporting the economic status quo, being the party of big business, being culturally liberal, being "internationalist") are exactly the principles that the "moderates" want Labour to follow. It failed spectacularly in the referendum, so why on earth would it be a good idea to model official Labour strategy on it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07jcjp3/daily-politics-28062016
Poor Andy Slaughter's face.......
Of course they won't and I don't blame them but where is the guarantee that it will stop there?
One question was what the Chancellor should do if he has more money.
A total of 9% would choose to reduce the deficit.
The rest either want more spending or tax cuts. Doubtless because "I'm worth it".
At this point remaining in the EU would require a different deal with the EU, a second referendum, and a popular majority for that deal. Whilst all these things are feasible in theory, the logistics are against it: there is nobody in the EU and UK governments who is minded to construct such a deal, and nobody in the UK government who wishes to legislate for a second referendum, and so on. So it appears that Brexit is, however regrettable, inevitable unless something changes.
So we move from trying to save the ship to trying to choose the lifeboat. Passengers on a sinking ship should choose the nearest lifeboat, not the best. The EEA/EFTA deal has the inestimable advantage of already being in existence and seaworthy, and should therefore be the quickest to join. So we should join that. I am aware it has freedom of movement and is objectionable to many LEAVErs but this can be legitimately spun as a temporary measure to provide respite whilst a longer-lasting deal is assembled in the 2020's with due care.
My present concern is that there are currently no competent people in Government willing or able to do this, and the candidates for PM are unable or unwilling to do this.
Consequently at the moment the most likely outcome appears to be a lengthy renegotiation of everything with everybody, without the numbers or quality of personnel to do it competently.
BBC PolEd says
Shes a serial compromiser and is currently leaving all her options open, If you hear something sympathetic to the UK youll hear something critical afterwards. She;s letting the dust settle.
Right now imo we have 2 options.
1. stay in but with some serious concessions on immigration controls. I think we have lost nothing fighting our corner and will come out with a degree of respect. If we stay in we lead the "confederates" against the union and say the model has to be integrate at your own pace if your people want to, Despite what the say half of Europe is shitting itself about losing its national identity and hate the commission straight jacket.
2, if theres no compromise then it's out EFTA\EEA doesnt really matter and we go out and do our damnedest to make the thing work and show the EU up if it cant keep pace. Any defectors are welcome. Germany just cant keep an empire together - it will go wrong and whole thing will break up.