It seems to me that the saddest part of this entire fiasco is not that the UK will or may or may not leave the EU, or join EFTA or the EEA or a renewed Imperial Preference Sphere, but that we have just thrown away our reputation for stability. There really are very few countries in the world that can point to decades, let alone centuries of stable government. It was always part of Britain's appeal as a place to live and come to do business that we change through evolution, not revolution. Crises come and go, sometimes of our making, sometimes forced upon us, but we could always point out that we don't EVER decide to throw the toys out of the pram and have a political / constitutional meltdown just for shits and giggles.
Until now.
It's a bit like the old saw about how do the Oxbridge colleges have such perfect lawns - they just do the same thing over and over again for hundreds of years. And now we've just poured a tonne (sorry, TON, now that we're free of the EU jackboot!) of paraquat onto our lawn...
that;s simply not true
1970s economic crisis and IMF 1980s war and recession 1990s kicked out of ERM 2000s banking crisis
weve always had turbulence since capitalism causes crises but in this revolution so far there arent any bodies on the street, no strikers a la France, no meltdown a la Greece. In Europe only Germany runs us close and they have their own sets of problems which will hit them hard in the next decade imo.
We've never willingly brought a crisis on ourselves though. At least not since 1642. Indeed, it's almost the essence of Toryism not to do such a thing.
Not true. The ERM crisis was entirely self inflicted.
Yes, but not intentionally. In this case we have deliberately brought a crisis on ourselves our of a clear sky.
Last week, we had a happy, liberal, prosperous, open country.
This week, we have an inward looking, scared, bigoted, economically threatened one.
And it's of our own making.
Not quite, I'm afraid.
Last week, the articulate & comfortable believed we had a happy, liberal, prosperous country.
This week, the articulate & comfortable are taking a look at how the rest of the country feels.
Ghana, NZ and EFTA can be added to that grouping, and it's pretty clear that the Irish are going to cite special circumstances in terms of trading with the UK/EU.
But can the UK accept a free trade deal with Ireland while Scotland is about to vote on Independence?
You clutch that straw.
It's not a straw. Its basically the fundamental objection to Independence at the moment.
If the UK cuts an open border and free trade deal with Ireland (and it will) then there is literally no way to stop Independence. And if it delays cutting the deal till after Scotland votes and says that it won't, once it does, there will be justification for a third referendum, if the second one says No.
It sounds obvious, but the only way to avoid Scottish independence is for the Scots not to want independence.
That implies making a success out of post-Brexit Britain.
Did you read your final sentence before you hit "post"?
There is still time to delete it and replace it with something remotely likely.
You must try not to believe the squealers of Broadcasting House in such a naive fashion. The fundamentals of Britain's position in the world just got a whole lot better. Whether we make a success of it or not depends on leadership. We're not in a great starting position, but now we're not in the EU we're at least in the race.
Even accepting your premise - the UK has no leadership, both main parties (and the only parties capable of winning an election) have lame duck leaders, are hopelessly split and are offering absolutely no policies or direction for the country.
If your hopes depend on leadership, your hopes are utterly doomed.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
That's really funny considering Wales voted pretty heavily for Leave.
My guess is Plaid has realised ( years too late ) that UKIP has leapfrogged them in the anger market. Leanne is clever and ( too ) decent. Brexit will only exacerbate what caused people to vote for Brexit in Wales. Once the EU is gone it'll be Westminster's turn. They've been admirably honest Wales is light years away from being financial independent but where has that got them. After watching Leave win she's probably concluded we're in post truth politics and she needs to be less principled.
Ghana, NZ and EFTA can be added to that grouping, and it's pretty clear that the Irish are going to cite special circumstances in terms of trading with the UK/EU.
But can the UK accept a free trade deal with Ireland while Scotland is about to vote on Independence?
You clutch that straw.
It's not a straw. Its basically the fundamental objection to Independence at the moment.
If the UK cuts an open border and free trade deal with Ireland (and it will) then there is literally no way to stop Independence. And if it delays cutting the deal till after Scotland votes and says that it won't, once it does, there will be justification for a third referendum, if the second one says No.
It sounds obvious, but the only way to avoid Scottish independence is for the Scots not to want independence.
That implies making a success out of post-Brexit Britain.
Did you read your final sentence before you hit "post"?
There is still time to delete it and replace it with something remotely likely.
You must try not to believe the squealers of Broadcasting House in such a naive fashion. The fundamentals of Britain's position in the world just got a whole lot better. Whether we make a success of it or not depends on leadership. We're not in a great starting position, but now we're not in the EU we're at least in the race.
Even accepting your premise - the UK has no leadership, both main parties (and the only parties capable of winning an election) have lame duck leaders, are hopelessly split and are offering absolutely no policies or direction for the country.
If your hopes depend on leadership, your hopes are utterly doomed.
They were doomed before. There's now a chink of light.
Assuming NI is where you are, would I be right to assume that NI suffered severe contagion from the property bubble and subsequent collapse caused by RoI euro membership and therefore building industry still hasnt recovered?
I live in warwickshire. Brummy metal basher now :-)
But yes NI had a huge property bubble. All the cash in ROI which couldnt find a home flew North. At one stage Newry which is like Skelmersdale without the scenery had the fastest growing house prices in the UK. At that point I knew we were heading for a crash.
My brother who lives in NI saw a house in his street sold for £250k in 2007. This week the house next door hit the market at £135k.
Assuming NI is where you are, would I be right to assume that NI suffered severe contagion from the property bubble and subsequent collapse caused by RoI euro membership and therefore building industry still hasnt recovered?
Nope @Alanbrooke is a little middle Englander. ( )
I made the NI mistake when I should have known better.
It seems to me that the saddest part of this entire fiasco is not that the UK will or may or may not leave the EU, or join EFTA or the EEA or a renewed Imperial Preference Sphere, but that we have just thrown away our reputation for stability. There really are very few countries in the world that can point to decades, let alone centuries of stable government. It was always part of Britain's appeal as a place to live and come to do business that we change through evolution, not revolution. Crises come and go, sometimes of our making, sometimes forced upon us, but we could always point out that we don't EVER decide to throw the toys out of the pram and have a political / constitutional meltdown just for shits and giggles.
Until now.
It's a bit like the old saw about how do the Oxbridge colleges have such perfect lawns - they just do the same thing over and over again for hundreds of years. And now we've just poured a tonne (sorry, TON, now that we're free of the EU jackboot!) of paraquat onto our lawn...
that;s simply not true
1970s economic crisis and IMF 1980s war and recession 1990s kicked out of ERM 2000s banking crisis
weve always had turbulence since capitalism causes crises but in this revolution so far there arent any bodies on the street, no strikers a la France, no meltdown a la Greece. In Europe only Germany runs us close and they have their own sets of problems which will hit them hard in the next decade imo.
We've never willingly brought a crisis on ourselves though. At least not since 1642. Indeed, it's almost the essence of Toryism not to do such a thing.
Not true. The ERM crisis was entirely self inflicted.
Yes, but not intentionally. In this case we have deliberately brought a crisis on ourselves our of a clear sky.
Last week, we had a happy, liberal, prosperous, open country.
This week, we have an inward looking, scared, bigoted, economically threatened one.
And it's of our own making.
Not quite, I'm afraid.
Last week, the articulate & comfortable believed we had a happy, liberal, prosperous country.
This week, the articulate & comfortable are taking a look at how the rest of the country feels.
It seems to me that the saddest part of this entire fiasco is not that the UK will or may or may not leave the EU, or join EFTA or the EEA or a renewed Imperial Preference Sphere, but that we have just thrown away our reputation for stability. There really are very few countries in the world that can point to decades, let alone centuries of stable government. It was always part of Britain's appeal as a place to live and come to do business that we change through evolution, not revolution. Crises come and go, sometimes of our making, sometimes forced upon us, but we could always point out that we don't EVER decide to throw the toys out of the pram and have a political / constitutional meltdown just for shits and giggles.
Until now.
It's a bit like the old saw about how do the Oxbridge colleges have such perfect lawns - they just do the same thing over and over again for hundreds of years. And now we've just poured a tonne (sorry, TON, now that we're free of the EU jackboot!) of paraquat onto our lawn...
that;s simply not true
1970s economic crisis and IMF 1980s war and recession 1990s kicked out of ERM 2000s banking crisis
weve always had turbulence since capitalism causes crises but in this revolution so far there arent any bodies on the street, no strikers a la France, no meltdown a la Greece. In Europe only Germany runs us close and they have their own sets of problems which will hit them hard in the next decade imo.
We've never willingly brought a crisis on ourselves though. At least not since 1642. Indeed, it's almost the essence of Toryism not to do such a thing.
Not true. The ERM crisis was entirely self inflicted.
Yes, but not intentionally. In this case we have deliberately brought a crisis on ourselves our of a clear sky.
Last week, we had a happy, liberal, prosperous, open country.
This week, we have an inward looking, scared, bigoted, economically threatened one.
And it's of our own making.
Not quite, I'm afraid.
Last week, the articulate & comfortable believed we had a happy, liberal, prosperous country.
This week, the articulate & comfortable are taking a look at how the rest of the country feels.
Yep. And will continue to be articulate & comfortable. Many in the rest of the country, not so much.
"Even though this situation was not of our making"
Erm, how did Wales vote again?
By situation I think she means the disintegration of the UK.
If she's arguing that the Leave vote will lead to Scottish independance then clearly Wales, having voted to Leave just as much as England, makes it equally "culpable".
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
if only youd listened to our lumpy warnings you wouldn't be in this pickle.
If we really are heading for a significant slowdown in growth next year, or a recession, how about we try what we did in the 1930's - building enough houses to meet demand in parts of the country people want to live in?
I don't think governments then worried much about borrowing, they worried more about maintaining full employment. There was terror too of a large current account deficit.
We already had planning controls then; they were introduced in 1948.
"Even though this situation was not of our making"
Erm, how did Wales vote again?
By situation I think she means the disintegration of the UK.
If she's arguing that the Leave vote will lead to Scottish independance then clearly Wales, having voted to Leave just as much as England, makes it equally "culpable".
Not the Leave vote per se. If Scotland and NI had voted Leave too, then the UK wouldn't be facing this existential crisis.
She's just posing the question of whether rUK = England and Wales, or just England left all on its own.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
if only youd listened to our lumpy warnings you wouldn't be in this pickle.
I am in no pickle at all. What were the warnings? Beware Dan? Beware Nige?
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
That's really funny considering Wales voted pretty heavily for Leave.
My guess is Plaid has realised ( years too late ) that UKIP has leapfrogged them in the anger market. Leanne is clever and ( too ) decent. Brexit will only exacerbate what caused people to vote for Brexit in Wales. Once the EU is gone it'll be Westminster's turn. They've been admirably honest Wales is light years away from being financial independent but where has that got them. After watching Leave win she's probably concluded we're in post truth politics and she needs to be less principled.
LOL. Yes you go on believing that. We only lost because they lied!! Mean beasties.
Newsflash. All politicians lie through their teeth all the time. Anyone who trusts any politician at all is a fool. We are not in a post truth era because there was never a truth era.
Its about time you grew up and took responsibility for yourself.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
Hacks on Twitter have got a 'Jez voted Leave' story ready to run tomorrow. I usually enjoy stuff like this, but the complete and utter decimation of the economy is really taking the shine off Labour falling apart.
People in Wales seem quite happy being a little part of England.
Good evening all. Wales independent? Oh my giddy aunt no. I've been lamenting the calibre of English politicians, but the Welsh lot are not even pygmies. What's below pygmy? Muppet?
no idea who said what in that exchange so god knows what I responded to..
so as a City chappy whats your current take on things ?
I am worried about investment, both inward and by UK companies. If you were about to sign off a project to do something or other significant, and previously there was a healthy positive IRR, now you would not be too sure. There are too many unknowns in the future environment that the UK will be conducting business in.
EEA, WTO, Albania - all will be workable, thing is, all result in a different NPV of that project and many will result in no go decisions.
Oh and apart from the billions of pounds knocked off our pensions, the fall in equity of bank shares, and the likely subsequent increasing disinclination to lend, of course.
Hacks on Twitter have got a 'Jez voted Leave' story ready to run tomorrow. I usually enjoy stuff like this, but the complete and utter decimation of the economy is really taking the shine off Labour falling apart.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
Quality not quantity is the issue here
Can we get rid of Britions we don't like, in exchange? If so, the non working WWC is in for a shock.
I think it's time some of the wobblier and more gelatinous of pb-ers got a bloody grip, the flailing and mewling on here has been pathetic. This is a great and ancient nation, we will prosper in time, as we have prospered before. The shackles of the EU have been struck from our limbs and now we can walk tall and free.
So stop this pitiful bedwettting and get on with it. You know who I mean.
*stops staring at mirror*
*climbs up Primrose Hill*
It seems to me that the saddest part of this entire fiasco is not that the UK will or may or may not leave the EU, or join EFTA or the EEA or a renewed Imperial Preference Sphere, but that we have just thrown away our reputation for stability. There really are very few countries in the world that can point to decades, let alone centuries of stable government. It was always part of Britain's appeal as a place to live and come to do business that we change through evolution, not revolution. Crises come and go, sometimes of our making, sometimes forced upon us, but we could always point out that we don't EVER decide to throw the toys out of the pram and have a political / constitutional meltdown just for shits and giggles.
Until now.
It's a bit like the old saw about how do the Oxbridge colleges have such perfect lawns - they just do the same thing over and over again for hundreds of years. And now we've just poured a tonne (sorry, TON, now that we're free of the EU jackboot!) of paraquat onto our lawn...
that;s simply not true
1970s economic crisis and IMF 1980s war and recession 1990s kicked out of ERM 2000s banking crisis
weve always had turbulence since capitalism causes crises but in this revolution so far there arent any bodies on the street, no strikers a la France, no meltdown a la Greece. In Europe only Germany runs us close and they have their own sets of problems which will hit them hard in the next decade imo.
We've never willingly brought a crisis on ourselves though. At least not since 1642. Indeed, it's almost the essence of Toryism not to do such a thing.
Not true. The ERM crisis was entirely self inflicted.
Yes, but not intentionally. In this case we have deliberately brought a crisis on ourselves our of a clear sky.
Last week, we had a happy, liberal, prosperous, open country.
This week, we have an inward looking, scared, bigoted, economically threatened one.
And it's of our own making.
No, it was always with us and is one, but not all, of the reasons, we have representative not direct democracy.
Iceland are packed with whippet fast players of reasonable skill with the ball. They can have the ball in your box before you realise your not attacking their goal.
no idea who said what in that exchange so god knows what I responded to..
so as a City chappy whats your current take on things ?
I am worried about investment, both inward and by UK companies. If you were about to sign off a project to do something or other significant, and previously there was a healthy positive IRR, now you would not be too sure. There are too many unknowns in the future environment that the UK will be conducting business in.
EEA, WTO, Albania - all will be workable, thing is, all result in a different NPV of that project and many will result in no go decisions.
Oh and apart from the billions of pounds knocked off our pensions, the fall in equity of bank shares, and the likely subsequent increasing disinclination to lend, of course.
Well sensibly HMG needs to boost the economy.
While we can still borrow cheaply we should be boosting infrastructure to tick things over. Once that gets going the rest of the economy will follow.
As for IRRs Ive seen enough of them to know its only to keep the accountants happy. There's no such thing as a guaranteed project.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
Quality not quantity is the issue here
Can we get rid of Britions we don't like, in exchange? If so, the non working WWC is in for a shock.
only if we can do a free lawyer with every chav deal.
Just heard Dan the Man repeating the mantra that EU yoke of oppression 300,000 net immigration = bad, UK sovereign answerable to no one 300,000 net immigration = good.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
Quality not quantity is the issue here
Really? You seem to believe blood > 'quality'.
No, intelligence, skills and qualifications are quality.
In particular where we actually need people with those skills and qualifications.
Not where they come over and live 12 to a flat doing semi skilled or unskilled jobs which they obtain by undercutting those already here driving down your wages
That's really funny considering Wales voted pretty heavily for Leave.
My guess is Plaid has realised ( years too late ) that UKIP has leapfrogged them in the anger market. Leanne is clever and ( too ) decent. Brexit will only exacerbate what caused people to vote for Brexit in Wales. Once the EU is gone it'll be Westminster's turn. They've been admirably honest Wales is light years away from being financial independent but where has that got them. After watching Leave win she's probably concluded we're in post truth politics and she needs to be less principled.
LOL. Yes you go on believing that. We only lost because they lied!! Mean beasties.
Newsflash. All politicians lie through their teeth all the time. Anyone who trusts any politician at all is a fool. We are not in a post truth era because there was never a truth era.
Its about time you grew up and took responsibility for yourself.
The only people responsible for Indivdual voters choices are voters themselves. They can exercise that choice on any basis they wish. I'm not arguing the vote is invalid because Leave lied. It's not. The success of Leave's systematic lying is in some ways more an incitement of the Remain campaign than them.
However in my opinion, nothing more, it was unlike any other political campaign I've witnessed in the UK in my life time. The quality and quantity of lies that individually would have destroyed a party in a GE campaign was stunning. Clearly many folk cared so little about EU membership that they neither knew nor cared in a way they would in a GE. That is of course largely the EU's and europhiles like myselfs fault.
If we really are heading for a significant slowdown in growth next year, or a recession, how about we try what we did in the 1930's - building enough houses to meet demand in parts of the country people want to live in?
I don't think governments then worried much about borrowing, they worried more about maintaining full employment. There was terror too of a large current account deficit.
We already had planning controls then; they were introduced in 1948.
People tend to deal with the problems with which they’ve grown up. People like Macmillan had clrear memories of the thirties, so to them a avoiding the horrors of that sort of unemployment was a key feature, and the costs of doing so of less importance. Every so often on here someone raises the spectres of the Winter of Discontent and rampant inflation; those, in particular the latter, are what the present generation has as their bogeymen. What will be the “race memory” for the generation of political leaders who were young around the Millenium I wonder.
Hacks on Twitter have got a 'Jez voted Leave' story ready to run tomorrow. I usually enjoy stuff like this, but the complete and utter decimation of the economy is really taking the shine off Labour falling apart.
So while England are playing at Euro 2016, one part of Labour is doing a rally and another part of Labour is trying to publicise their plot?
They are so in touch with their voters.
The Momentum lot think half the population are like them, whilst the Parliamentary party expect the working class to shuffle into the voting booths and dutifully put the cross by the Labour candidate.
And even the politically obsessed are starting to say who to these names.
Indeed. They could make up names now and we wouldn't know any better...
Mick Mouse has quit has Shadow Arts Minister.
I'm just stunned at how bloated the ministerial ranks have become. Is there anyone in the Labour party who isn't a shadow minister? The buggers are coming in and out faster than I can learn their names.
Comments
Last week, the articulate & comfortable believed we had a happy, liberal, prosperous country.
This week, the articulate & comfortable are taking a look at how the rest of the country feels.
If your hopes depend on leadership, your hopes are utterly doomed.
Now of course, he is right. It is up to us whoever we let in. Thing is, they may blather and bluster, but they used Nige to fight their anti-immigration proxy war (and sometimes got involved themselves, witness Turkey).
So although the theory is elegant, will the lumpenproletariat be happy?
Just remember this catchy rhyming phrase "Leanne Wood is Not Very Good"
I live in warwickshire. Brummy metal basher now :-)
But yes NI had a huge property bubble. All the cash in ROI which couldnt find a home flew North. At one stage Newry which is like Skelmersdale without the scenery had the fastest growing house prices in the UK. At that point I knew we were heading for a crash.
My brother who lives in NI saw a house in his street sold for £250k in 2007. This week the house next door hit the market at £135k.
littlemiddle Englander. (I made the NI mistake when I should have known better.
I'm anything but little :-)
no idea who said what in that exchange so god knows what I responded to..
I don't think governments then worried much about borrowing, they worried more about maintaining full employment. There was terror too of a large current account deficit.
We already had planning controls then; they were introduced in 1948.
She's just posing the question of whether rUK = England and Wales, or just England left all on its own.
Newsflash. All politicians lie through their teeth all the time. Anyone who trusts any politician at all is a fool. We are not in a post truth era because there was never a truth era.
Its about time you grew up and took responsibility for yourself.
EEA, WTO, Albania - all will be workable, thing is, all result in a different NPV of that project and many will result in no go decisions.
Oh and apart from the billions of pounds knocked off our pensions, the fall in equity of bank shares, and the likely subsequent increasing disinclination to lend, of course.
Its 1-1.
Cod Wars again.
What goes around, comes around
While we can still borrow cheaply we should be boosting infrastructure to tick things over. Once that gets going the rest of the economy will follow.
As for IRRs Ive seen enough of them to know its only to keep the accountants happy. There's no such thing as a guaranteed project.
https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/747507562107527168
In particular where we actually need people with those skills and qualifications.
Not where they come over and live 12 to a flat doing semi skilled or unskilled jobs which they obtain by undercutting those already here driving down your wages
They are so in touch with their voters.
Not enough charisma between them IMO.
However in my opinion, nothing more, it was unlike any other political campaign I've witnessed in the UK in my life time. The quality and quantity of lies that individually would have destroyed a party in a GE campaign was stunning. Clearly many folk cared so little about EU membership that they neither knew nor cared in a way they would in a GE. That is of course largely the EU's and europhiles like myselfs fault.
What will be the “race memory” for the generation of political leaders who were young around the Millenium I wonder.
Indeed. They could make up names now and we wouldn't know any better...
Mick Mouse has quit has Shadow Arts Minister.
1-2 to Iceland.
Really wish I'd been faster.
And everyone in Brussels.