Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
Would Boris go for that?
Agree with that idea, but Gove would have to be dragged into it as a reluctantly elected Speaker is dragged to his chair at the start of the Parliamentary session.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Literally every single other MP. Every single one.
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
Name a specific MP who'd be better, please.
I think Labour competing for a win at the next election is very unlikely, correct. But I think Corbyn would have a better chance of saving the Northern/Midlands heartland seats than a Europhile who'd be sticking the middle finger up at working-class Labour voters and telling them they were too stupid to understand about the EU and that their choice is going to be ignored.
I would agree with that unless you are talking about McDonnell, who after a stumbling start has actually been quite good.
It'll be Boris! And sooner than we think - the October option won't be viable. It seems pretty clear now that the EU won't allow our government to be put on hold for months, they will make us get on with it.
The point of the vote on Thursday was that Brussels can't make us do what we don't want to...
I agree but just putting 2 fingers up to everyone is not going to be conducive to amicable negotiations when they do take place. There needs to be some recognition that this is not just about the UK and it is having a negative impact on our former partners who we would hope to have a future trading relationship with.
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
The only people told they'd be at the back of the queue is Westminster by Obama.
Could well be President Trump putting us at the front of the queue by the end of January next year
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
Corbyn will go as early as Wednesday. He will survive the confidence motion in the same manner as thatcher survived the first round of voting in 1990
Corbyn does not have Thatcher's intelligence or anyone surrounding him capable of understanding reality. He will cling on and the members will love him for it.
Are you sure the "letter" would even be accepted ?
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I'm not too surprised by a element of buyers remorse. Some treated BREXIT as a nationwide by-election with no consequences, perhaps partly because they didn't expect to win.
Whether they've got a pig in a poke is another matter. However what is for sure is that the £350m a week to the NHS (in addition to the manifesto pledge of an extra £12bn a year) will weigh heavily. Especially as I've gobbled up half of that in the past few months myself.
Doesn't surprise me either, or worry me. Life goes on. Even the most suggestible will realise sooner or later that it's being overdone. Again. Our political establishment really ought to be on the West End stage.
I was reading a very interesting piece that Miss Plato posted earlier, which re-analyzed what had gone wrong for REMAIN.
The point about the £350m that REMAIN kept (and keep) on about is that the actual amount wasn't really important to voters. Whether it was £350m or £120m it just reminded voters that a huge amount (though probably not as much as LEAVE was claiming) was going to the EU.
It was a huge error for REMAIN to keep going on about the £350m.
I agree, and said exactly this at the time.
But both sides made errors. Leave's campaign was a core vote campaign, not a winners' campaign. Immigration was factored in, and neither Vote Leave nor Leave.EU should have made it central. Effectively giving up on the young, the Scots, and the Londoners, failing to provide an alternative narrative to even the numbers up even slightly, was a mistake, and has undoubtedly left us with people who are angrier and more disillusioned than they need have been. No excuse really for a former London Mayor.
Liam Fox apparently hasn't refused to rule himself out. I'm wondering if there are efforts behind the scenes to unite behind a Remainer, and he is sensing an opportunity...
Remainers could put up Jesus Christ, Leavers Joey Essex, Tory members would vote for Joey Essex in their present mood!
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
BTW I'm so glad Jack W is back and posting but I'm worried that his ARSE has shown to be fallible over BREXIT. Will that mean that Trump will be President and Corbyn will be Prime Minister?
I feel like a right CNUT that has been proven to be not so all royally powerful. Why is there water lapping at my feet?
Bloody hell not incontinence again.
Very pleased to see you back and in good form again. Hope the ARSE is back and functioning accurately for POTUS. Best wishes for a continued recovery
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
Nelson did a podcast just after Yes crept ahead in Indyref polling and he sounded utterly suicidal. The loss of Scotland is probably the most important issue to him and he will not be a happy bunny at how things have played out.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
No. This is a turning point, like Labour's victory in 1945.
A BBC chappy who was on about 5am - Kamal Something - seemed to really get the *meh, experts*.
He brought up something I'd forgotten. "When you fear that you can't take your own money out of a cashpoint machine in 2008, trust in The Establishment was broken ... why would we trust you ever again if you could let that happen?"
Speaking of trust, I have grave misgivings about those oft repeated advertisements on the radio, put out by the FSCS, promising that up to £75,000 of savings held in a personal bank or building society account, etc is fully protected and that we can normally expect to be fully compensated within 7 days in the event of failure? I notice however that they have recently dropped the word "normally" from this commitment. Not before time - what's normal about a major bank collapse and how can they possibly make such an enormous commitment, having never experienced such a failure and without making it clear from where such compensation would be funded. Are commitments of such enormity really legal without absolutely cast iron guarantees, with the monies involved held in escrow?
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
The only unambiguous message since 9am Friday is that the LEAVE campaign in politics and the media do not actually want to leave the European Union. They would quite like someone else to do it so they can keep moaning about other people deciding on their behalf and not handing out the BREXIT free owls.
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
Corbyn will go as early as Wednesday. He will survive the confidence motion in the same manner as thatcher survived the first round of voting in 1990
Really? I prefer Corbyn to McIRA - the former is useless and harmless - the latter is credible and dangerous.
Corbyn's not going anywhere if he doesn't want to. Even if the PLP no-confidence him, his name is automatically on the ballot open to all the £3ers from last time - plus probably a few more.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
"the post match analysis" what on earth are we pretending that the national media don't exist
Haven't you bothered to read the Ashcroft 12k post vote analysis? I've posted it twice and others have done so too.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
Nelson did a podcast just after Yes crept ahead in Indyref polling and he sounded utterly suicidal. The loss of Scotland is probably the most important issue to him and he will not be a happy bunny at how things have played out.
Surely this was absolutely predictable and there was ample warning that it would happen?
I'm stunned at the cognitive dissonance of many Brexiters who have been saying for years that the EU is about politics, not economics, and then are shocked that leaving it has profound political consequences and is not just a matter of a few technical adjustments to trade agreements. What did they expect?
It's a bit difficult to read the motivations of the EU towards encouraging Scotland. I'm not really sure quite why they would be particularly bothered either way about keeping them in the EU. They probably quite like being told that there are still places that are desperate to be a part of it though. Whether they are at all interested in giving them any special treatment is another matter.
I suspect that they might be seeing Scotland as a useful way of securing a good deal, in particular on issues of free movement, with the UK, by playing Scotland off against the UK negotiators. Calculating that the UK will bend over backwards out of fear of Scottish independence.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
"the post match analysis" what on earth are we pretending that the national media don't exist
Haven't you bothered to read the Ashcroft 12k post vote analysis? I've posted it twice and others have done so too.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
No. This is a turning point, like Labour's victory in 1945.
A BBC chappy who was on about 5am - Kamal Something - seemed to really get the *meh, experts*.
He brought up something I'd forgotten. "When you fear that you can't take your own money out of a cashpoint machine in 2008, trust in The Establishment was broken ... why would we trust you ever again if you could let that happen?"
Speaking of trust, I have grave misgivings about those oft repeated advertisements on the radio, put out by the FSCS, promising that up to £75,000 of savings held in a personal bank or building society account, etc is fully protected and that we can normally expect to be fully compensated within 7 days in the event of failure? I notice however that they have recently dropped the word "normally" from this commitment. Not before time - what's normal about a major bank collapse and how can they possibly make such an enormous commitment, having never experienced such a failure and without making it clear from where such compensation would be funded. Are commitments of such enormity really legal without absolutely cast iron guarantees, with the monies involved held in escrow?
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
The only unambiguous message since 9am Friday is that the LEAVE campaign in politics and the media do not actually want to leave the European Union. They would quite like someone else to do it so they can keep moaning about other people deciding on their behalf and not handing out the BREXIT free owls.
Yes I think it's now obvious that Farage's plan was to grandstand for as long as possible until one of the minor countries decided to leave. He never intended us to be first to pull the trigger.
I've always believed you are very well "connected" to the UK establishment, so can you tell us how things are in Downing St?
And more pertinently whether anybody has set eyes on Osborne since Wednesday?
The only things I've been "well connected" to in recent weeks was a life support machine and various pharmaceuticals and to some rather pleasing erotic dreams. I'm advised the latter two are "connected" as well.
I'm half expecting to see Ozzie on a missing persons list. He'll probably be found under Plato's neighbours patio.
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I honestly think it's way too soon to pronounce on the "forecasts of doom". Let's see where we are by the time we actually Brexit before drawing any conclusions.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Yes I think it's now obvious that Farage's plan was to grandstand for as long as possible until one of the minor countries decided to leave. He never intended us to be first to pull the trigger.
Farage didn't want to win.
Boris and Gove didn't want to win
Dan Hannan wanted to win, but was completely naive about what winning meant.
So there are 2.2 million people who object to a full and fair election on which almost 34 million people voted? Time wasters!
I am a remainer but I can see no point in this at all, what are they hoping to achieve. Just looks idiotic
They're trying to show themselves as being superior and right-minded, whilst actually showing everyone else how out of touch they are with the public and elitist they all are. Amusing to watch.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
Intriguing. A modestly proportioned feline (though not camel snogging) industrialist residing in the lush sunlit uplands of Stratford-on-Avon has a direct empathetic hotline to the angry, alieniated white working class in Sunderland or Grimsby. I'm impressed. Seriously so.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
The only unambiguous message since 9am Friday is that the LEAVE campaign in politics and the media do not actually want to leave the European Union. They would quite like someone else to do it so they can keep moaning about other people deciding on their behalf and not handing out the BREXIT free owls.
It's bizarre. Having moaned about the EU for so long, they can't even write a letter.Nobody is suggesting that the whole package has to be settled in a week. That is why Article 50 provides for 2 years. Are they actually saying they won't invoke Article 50 ?
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I doubt most on here dispute that for the hardcore leavers (especially those on here), who have always been leavers, that this wasn't about immigration but was about Sovereignty. But it is entirely disingenuous of Leavers to refuse to even countenance the idea that immigration was a major factor in this vote and a prime motivation for large numbers of people. The Leave campaign knew that themselves, that's why they campaigned relentlessly on it.
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
Nelson did a podcast just after Yes crept ahead in Indyref polling and he sounded utterly suicidal. The loss of Scotland is probably the most important issue to him and he will not be a happy bunny at how things have played out.
Surely this was absolutely predictable and there was ample warning that it would happen?
I'm stunned at the cognitive dissonance of many Brexiters who have been saying for years that the EU is about politics, not economics, and then are shocked that leaving it has profound political consequences and is not just a matter of a few technical adjustments to trade agreements. What did they expect?
You have DavidL on here, who sounds like a very similar North Briton "I swear I'm Scottish, its true" type who said he voted Leave. Yes it was predictable. But that doesn't mean Scots who at Little Englanders are heart do not vote and act like any other Little Englander. Then face the consequences.
It's just the type of bitter, broken, confused people they are.
I'm very convinced that the "I'm Scottish and British" types are very much like the "Im a true Yorkshireman". Its a regional identity to them with absolutely no link to the idea of Scotland (or Yorkshire) as a Nation. It's also almost unthinkable to them that Britain will not prevail.
Michael Ashcroft was the man most responsible for creating a false impression of the GE 2015 result. People kept misleading him about their impressions of politics and what they would do in a vote, and he kept publishing it. Yet he keeps going back and asking the same types of people the same types of questions.
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson is spitting nails that having campaigned with the Spectator to withdraw from EU financial regulations, out EU commissioner for financial regs has quit
Very funny
The only unambiguous message since 9am Friday is that the LEAVE campaign in politics and the media do not actually want to leave the European Union. They would quite like someone else to do it so they can keep moaning about other people deciding on their behalf and not handing out the BREXIT free owls.
It's bizarre. Having moaned about the EU for so long, they can't even write a letter.Nobody is suggesting that the whole package has to be settled in a week. That is why Article 50 provides for 2 years. Are they actually saying they won't invoke Article 50 ?
LEAVE cannot - only HMG - and Mr Cameron has said he won't do that.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
In the Denmark there was a natural movement of the polls toward the anti EU position through the campaign, manifesting itself within a similar time-frame. There was no immigration element there.
I've always believed you are very well "connected" to the UK establishment, so can you tell us how things are in Downing St?
And more pertinently whether anybody has set eyes on Osborne since Wednesday?
The only things I've been "well connected" to in recent weeks was a life support machine and various pharmaceuticals and to some rather pleasing erotic dreams. I'm advised the latter two are "connected" as well.
I'm half expecting to see Ozzie on a missing persons list. He'll probably be found under Plato's neighbours patio.
Crumbs, I hadn't realized you were that ill. Sounds like we're very lucky to still have you with us... Especially as we're now going to be entertained to the delight of seeing your good self and MalcG campaigning on the same side for SINDY2: Return Of Sindy!
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
Clearly immigration was not the motivation for these voters...
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
May would be a good choice for the Tories. As Maggie (supposedly) said: "if you want something said, give it to a man. If you want something done, give it to a woman".
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
Would Boris go for that?
I don't think it even need be that long. I am sure he would be widely accepted as an interim till October. That way we could trigger Article 50 and still hold the Tory leadership election on a reasonable timetable.
Does rather depend on Gove not having changed his mind on the leadership - he must surely come under pressure to stand as the only Brexiter likely to defeat Boris.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Personally, the only credible candidate from the centre is Harriet. The rest are rubbish.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
Yes I think it's now obvious that Farage's plan was to grandstand for as long as possible until one of the minor countries decided to leave. He never intended us to be first to pull the trigger.
Farage didn't want to win.
Boris and Gove didn't want to win
Dan Hannan wanted to win, but was completely naive about what winning meant.
So glad these guys are in charge now...
I'm pretty sure even Hannan was a bit mixed in his subconscious. He had this 'Prince over the water' thing of being right about everything in his ivory tower. There's fun in being a casual observer. Now surely he'll have to get a parliamentary seat and 'do his bit'.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
FFS Plato...Brexit was the wish of the younger, educated, professional classes who wanted to re-claim sovereignty. Please. Out of the 17 million who voted the appalling Brexit, there was perhaps one who fits your caricature- and that one had probably had forgotten to bring their glasses to the polling both.
I think given time, even your good self Plato, will probably re-invent what they actually voted for on the 23rd June 2016. It will become a source of national shame.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
"Speaking of trust, I have grave misgivings about those oft repeated advertisements on the radio, put out by the FSCS, promising that up to £75,000 of savings held in a personal bank or building society account, etc is fully protected and that we can normally expect to be fully compensated within 7 days in the event of failure? I notice however that they have recently dropped the word "normally" from this commitment. Not before time - what's normal about a major bank collapse and how can they possibly make such an enormous commitment, having never experienced such a failure and without making it clear from where such compensation would be funded.
Are commitments of such enormity really legal without absolutely cast iron guarantees, with the monies involved held in escrow?"
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I'm not suggesting that YOU voted based on immigration. What I am saying is that in areas with a high OAP population it was the prime reason for voting Leave. I live and work on the Sussex coast which does have a large elderly population and has in the last 10 years seen a lot of Eastern European migration and it was a huge factor in driving votes to Leave not just from OAPs but also from local tradespeople.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
Yes I think it's now obvious that Farage's plan was to grandstand for as long as possible until one of the minor countries decided to leave. He never intended us to be first to pull the trigger.
Farage didn't want to win.
Boris and Gove didn't want to win
Dan Hannan wanted to win, but was completely naive about what winning meant.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I doubt most on here dispute that for the hardcore leavers (especially those on here), who have always been leavers, that this wasn't about immigration but was about Sovereignty. But it is entirely disingenuous of Leavers to refuse to even countenance the idea that immigration was a major factor in this vote and a prime motivation for large numbers of people. The Leave campaign knew that themselves, that's why they campaigned relentlessly on it.
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
I have no doubt immigration was the prime factor for a sizeable slice of leavers 17% IIRC put it as their number one issue. However this droning on that it was the only issue for Leavers is wrong. It is precisely because remainers wanted to believe their own propaganda that they didnt understand the other issues on which they should have made their pitch.
My PB "special allowance" for the day is about to be medically terminated. Think Hattie Jacques crossed with Godzilla rather than Barbara Windsor and Cinderella.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
Well this will be the shortest leadership bid in history... Not sure he'll even get to installing the phone lines...
My PB "special allowance" for the day is about to be medically terminated. Think Hattie Jacques crossed with Godzilla rather than Barbara Windsor and Cinderella.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I'm not suggesting that YOU voted based on immigration. What I am saying is that in areas with a high OAP population it was the prime reason for voting Leave. I live and work on the Sussex coast which does have a large elderly population and has in the last 10 years seen a lot of Eastern European migration and it was a huge factor in driving votes to Leave not just from OAPs but also from local tradespeople.
Boston, Stoke Wolverhampton had some of the highest leave % votes and theyre not stuffed with OAPs.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
Tbh i don't really understand why he'd even want it.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Labour faces decimation. It needs to rebuild and start doing the basics right. Step one, elect a leader who is a credible PM candidate.
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Fraser Nelson was a pro-EU bod until the last minute.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
Cobblers. You want Brexiteers to be small-minded, stupid, ignorant, racist bigots - the evidence doesn't fit your desires.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
George will clearly be marketing himself as 'the man who brought stability after Brexit'. If it's all turning sour by then and buyer's remorse has really set in then it could be a powerful selling point.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
I really must pick you up on this ugly trope. It really does you no favours.
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
If that's so true then why did the polls start to change when Leave focused on immigration and why did they spend the last few weeks of the campaign banging on about virtually nothing else? I can easily understand why pensioners dislike immigration and the way it's changed England in particular. I just dislike the way people are rewriting history to ascribe more noble motives to their voting habits.
Cobblers. You want Brexiteers to be small-minded, stupid, ignorant, racist bigots - the evidence doesn't fit your desires.
That's your problem, not ours.
the evidence is provided by a man who told us there would be 30 Lib Dem MPs
Labour faces decimation. It needs to rebuild and start doing the basics right. Step one, elect a leader who is a credible PM candidate.
I don't see how Labour can be decimated until UKIP pivots onto a Social Democratic platform (and they seem a long way from that). If anything, keeping their heads under the parapets might end up helping them in GE16/17.
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
Sturgeon will have to be careful she doesn't just let herself get used as a pawn to force the UK government to invoke Article 50.
Is that her problem ? She should do what's best for Scotland. Scotland will be better off leaving the UK.
Being slightly tongue in cheek but it's strange how the radical left seem so angry about Brexit. It would appear we no longer have a government. Hasn't the anarchist dream come true?
I just hope there are no Russian jets flying near British airspace.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
Blimey. I was not expecting that.
That would be fun. We can have Mr Osborne as the Remain candidate, and whoever gets most MP support from the Leavers as the Leave candidate. Let the party members decide.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I doubt most on here dispute that for the hardcore leavers (especially those on here), who have always been leavers, that this wasn't about immigration but was about Sovereignty. But it is entirely disingenuous of Leavers to refuse to even countenance the idea that immigration was a major factor in this vote and a prime motivation for large numbers of people. The Leave campaign knew that themselves, that's why they campaigned relentlessly on it.
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
Immigration is a symptom of the problem. It was a massive weakness for Remain, of course we exploited it.
Just as Remain tried to scare the shit out of pensioners, the disabled, the middle classes over houses prices.
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates about people who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
It's the fact you bang on about Blairites and see them as different to other party members that is the problem I am talking about. It's one team. At most two sides of the same coin. Some people want to defeat the so called Blairites -which is defined as anyone they dislike -more than the govt.
In terms of who would make a better leader than Corbyn, I am tempted to say all of them. Margaret Hodge would be fun. Thinking out of the box Balls could stand for Jo Cox's seat. Otherwise off the top of my head Johnson, Benn. Watson or even Harman would be better.
I would've happily voted for Hilary Benn a few months ago (and said so on PB at the time), but not after the referendum. Throughout the campaign, he was on TV reeling out the typical "Remain" arguments: how good it was for business, how the economy was doing so well and how stupid it was to risk prosperity, how freedom of movement was a good thing. But traditional Labour voters showed on Thursday what they thought of those arguments: they didn't care about business opinion, they thought the economy was screwed up anyway so why not take a risk, they hated freedom of movement.
And I come back to the point: if Benn was so tone-deaf to Labour voters that he thought those were politically-effective arguments to make, it surely follows that he would be similarly tone-deaf on all sorts of issues if he became Labour leader.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
May would be a good choice for the Tories. As Maggie (supposedly) said: "if you want something said, give it to a man. If you want something done, give it to a woman".
I've been backing May in from 10/1 in the last couple of months. She's the right age, senior in the party having survived the Home Office for six years and has kept her head down for the referendum, supporting the PM in theory but saying very little in practice. She would be a safe pair of hands to see the country through the EU negotiations before handing over to someone new in maybe 2020.
I also like the idea of a second lady PM. She's where she is on merit rather than through some silly quota system, and seeing another right-leaning woman PM will make some of the more excitable feminists in Labour go completely nuts!!
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
Sturgeon will have to be careful she doesn't just let herself get used as a pawn to force the UK government to invoke Article 50.
Is that her problem ? She should do what's best for Scotland. Scotland will be better off leaving the UK.
I mean she'll need to get a concrete package agreed quickly while she has maximum leverage.
Hilarious watching Boris squirm. He clearly intended to lose 49-51 and ride the wave of outraged Tory Leavers to the leadership a la the SNP. Now he owns this mess.
Yes I think it's now obvious that Farage's plan was to grandstand for as long as possible until one of the minor countries decided to leave. He never intended us to be first to pull the trigger.
Farage didn't want to win.
Boris and Gove didn't want to win
Dan Hannan wanted to win, but was completely naive about what winning meant.
Comments
Very funny
He might be happy to step away now. His work here is finished...
But both sides made errors. Leave's campaign was a core vote campaign, not a winners' campaign. Immigration was factored in, and neither Vote Leave nor Leave.EU should have made it central. Effectively giving up on the young, the Scots, and the Londoners, failing to provide an alternative narrative to even the numbers up even slightly, was a mistake, and has undoubtedly left us with people who are angrier and more disillusioned than they need have been. No excuse really for a former London Mayor.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
Very pleased to see you back and in good form again. Hope the ARSE is back and functioning accurately for POTUS. Best wishes for a continued recovery
The age at which Brexit was more appealing is 41yrs old and when your kids turn 11yrs old. Sovereignty and democracy were the most important reasons for Leavers.
42% of Brexiteers are ABs.
We Tories are much better at regicide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoxxHeBJmz8
I'm stunned at the cognitive dissonance of many Brexiters who have been saying for years that the EU is about politics, not economics, and then are shocked that leaving it has profound political consequences and is not just a matter of a few technical adjustments to trade agreements. What did they expect?
I suspect that they might be seeing Scotland as a useful way of securing a good deal, in particular on issues of free movement, with the UK, by playing Scotland off against the UK negotiators. Calculating that the UK will bend over backwards out of fear of Scottish independence.
I am a remainer but I can see no point in this at all, what are they hoping to achieve. Just looks idiotic
I'm half expecting to see Ozzie on a missing persons list. He'll probably be found under Plato's neighbours patio.
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Boris and Gove didn't want to win
Dan Hannan wanted to win, but was completely naive about what winning meant.
So glad these guys are in charge now...
Maybe they're just letting off steam, but even so it looks a bit ridiculous.
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
It's just the type of bitter, broken, confused people they are.
I'm very convinced that the "I'm Scottish and British" types are very much like the "Im a true Yorkshireman". Its a regional identity to them with absolutely no link to the idea of Scotland (or Yorkshire) as a Nation. It's also almost unthinkable to them that Britain will not prevail.
http://twitter.com/DWxLW/status/746684492073558017/photo/1
Your stereotyping is stunningly naive.
Does rather depend on Gove not having changed his mind on the leadership - he must surely come under pressure to stand as the only Brexiter likely to defeat Boris.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
I think he'd make an excellent Foreign Secretary.
I think given time, even your good self Plato, will probably re-invent what they actually voted for on the 23rd June 2016. It will become a source of national shame.
Good night all.
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/7-article-7.html
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
That's your problem, not ours.
http://twitter.com/DWxLW/status/746684492073558017/photo/1
I genuinely have serious doubts about whether they know what they are going to do next.I hope I am proved wrong.
I just hope there are no Russian jets flying near British airspace.
Blimey. I was not expecting that.
That would be fun. We can have Mr Osborne as the Remain candidate, and whoever gets most MP support from the Leavers as the Leave candidate. Let the party members decide.
Just as Remain tried to scare the shit out of pensioners, the disabled, the middle classes over houses prices.
And I come back to the point: if Benn was so tone-deaf to Labour voters that he thought those were politically-effective arguments to make, it surely follows that he would be similarly tone-deaf on all sorts of issues if he became Labour leader.
I also like the idea of a second lady PM. She's where she is on merit rather than through some silly quota system, and seeing another right-leaning woman PM will make some of the more excitable feminists in Labour go completely nuts!!