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Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Clearly it's time for me to come out of self imposed exile, where I have been immersing myself in a truly refreshingly anti-Tory, capitalism is doomed, conspiracy is everywhere, NWO is watching you epiphany.
Remain have this imho 52.5 to 47.5, a dangerously divided public and I'm afraid a surge to UKIP as the almost did it leavers flock to Farage's banner.
Dave has royally shafted us.

JosiasJessop said:

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

Lol!

AndyJS said:

Some people who haven't voted yet may be saying to themselves "I want Remain to win but not by 10%. Maybe I should vote tactically."

To be fair, "Europe" (whatever that means) could do with a good kicking.

But it's had good kickings before. Several Danish, Dutch and Irish referenda. Even the French rejected the Constitution in 2005. Greek election results. A euro crisis that has cost mindboggling numbers of billions, and cast half the young population of several countries into unemployment. A mismanaged migrant crisis that is not only chaotic but is also responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of vulnerable people, right on the EU's doorstep.

Yet none of that seems to prevent "Europe" ticking along in its normal can-kicking manner. Able to cobble together continent-spanning micro-regulations, but not to address the big issues. An elite who are unwilling to admit what the solutions to many of Europe's pressing problems might be (a common treasury, i.e. a Germany that subsidises Greece and where supreme budget control is found in Brussels; a common policy on migration that means one chancellor's declaration can't trigger uncontrolled streams half a continent away) because they know that many in Europe wouldn't stand for them.

I don't think the Brussels functionocracy would learn anything from a 51-49 vote to remain. But I'm not sure they'd even learn anything from a vote to leave either.

RobD said:

TOPPING said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

PlatoSaid said:

Oddly, these polls are cheering me up. If Leave was ahead, I'd be nervous as Hell.

Now, I can just enjoy the next 18hrs.

It wont help Remain persuade 18-24 year olds to get out of bed, thats for sure.

Yep 18-24yr olds all sitting on the internet waiting for the latest opinion poll.

I joined PB when I was 19. Talk about wasting my life

You must have had a hard paper round as a boy

This is it for me and politics.

We have no one to blame but our selves. I don't blame Dave but won't vote Tory after this even if the margin is 55-45. Unless they have an outer as leader which they won't. And won't vote ukip whilst Nigel Farrage is leader. So have no one to vote for as all the others are europhiles. Oh well.

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Welcome back Josias. We have had a right larf in your absence as PB has completely realigned on europhilia/euroscepticism lines.

The PB Lavatories and the PB Leftouts are bosom buddies now.

Nigel Smith seems to think turnout will be on the low side. I'm not so sure. There's all kind of referenda. Clearly this one matters much more than Ireland rejecting the Lisbon Treaty.

nunu said:

This is it for me and politics.

We have no one to blame but our selves. I don't blame Dave but won't vote Tory after this even if the margin is 55-45. Unless they have an outer as leader which they won't. And won't vote ukip whilst Nigel Farrage is leader. So have no one to vote for as all the others are europhiles. Oh well.

I don't think you're alone nunu. There are a fair few politically homeless people now.

GIN1138 said:

Euro is back on the agenda from tomorrow.

Really? Germany, who wanted Greece to leave the Eurozone, would like to force a country that doesn't want to be a member, in against their wishes.

I know lots of German politicians. They want to save the Eurozone. They have not the slightest interest in trying to force someone who doesn't want to be a member from joining. Why would they?

kjohnw said:

Senario: If Remain win by a small margin, Tory Civil War, 50 Names, Cameron Ousted, Brexiter becomes leader, EU reneges on negotiations / announces EU Army, etc, GE autumn 2016 on Tory ticket of leaving EU, if they lose Corbyn Wins, F***s up the country, and Tories win next GE pull us out of EU

So remain either commits us to federal Europe, or to us ultimately leaving Europe? Interesting

RobD said:

kjohnw said:

Senario: If Remain win by a small margin, Tory Civil War, 50 Names, Cameron Ousted, Brexiter becomes leader, EU reneges on negotiations / announces EU Army, etc, GE autumn 2016 on Tory ticket of leaving EU, if they lose Corbyn Wins, F***s up the country, and Tories win next GE pull us out of EU

So remain either commits us to federal Europe, or to us ultimately leaving Europe? Interesting

Another binary choice

@JossiasJessup

"...As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded. ..."

The triumph of hope over experience.

nunu said:

OK just came back from a vote leave campaign centre and there was nothing to do because we have no to very little data! Remain are united so have masses of data whereas ukip ran their own campaign so weren't allowed to share their data with us. Its all over bar the crying.

It's never all over. One day, some young generation will put their lives on the line to fight for a return to democracy. It's happened elsewhere, it'll happen in Europe.

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

SeanT said:

Anyway I am now bulk-ordering a consignment of DON'T BLAME ME, I VOTED LEAVE tee shirts.

And buy some buckets on Ebay for all the shit that will dumped on remainers.

IIRC, I predicted 55.55% in the PB competition - could be close.


It's just that I can't remember if that was for Remain or Leave....

SeanT said:

John_M said:

kle4 said:

kle4 said:

Wanderer said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

Bob__Sykes said:

I ended at the polling station this morning where I began in February - bitterly torn, heart saying one thing, the head saying another, and irritated and annoyed that we're having a vote at this time on this question, and feeling let down by the Prime Minister, who ultimately is responsible for this, his hopeless renegotiation and for the fallout that follows whatever the outcome.

I voted Remain, I know many on here will be dismayed by that, in truth I am a little myself, but the "head" won out. Cool hard economic reasoning (and a degree of self-interest) over emotion. I did at least hover over the boxes rather than my usual confident crossing of a box without a moment's hesitation. I even felt a bit choked.

I just want this all to be over, and let's get on with our lives again...!

Hear hear.

NEVER AGAIN.

This is bollocks. All this bleating, mewling crap about the referendum being awful, divisive, nasty, blah blah. This is democracy, it is rough and ready. This vote is especially rough because we, as a nation, are deciding our future. But WE are deciding. The people. As it should be.

The alternative: of smooth, technocratic consensus, where even the most fundamental decisions are taken by an elite, is what they have in North Korea.

I think this question, and other big constitutional questions, need to be decided by referendum. I very much want us to remain a representative democracy though, not one where bullshit "propositions" are subject to plebiscites every ten minutes.

I would prefer more clarity on what questions need to be decided by referendum though.

Anorak said:

I assume that after today, PB's unpleasant IN/OUT name-calling and bitchiness will be replaced by the warm, soothing return of PB's unpleasant party-based name-calling and bitchiness.

Truly healing the PB Tory divide will be more important than anything else, the country. Can wait

Heh. First act tomorrow morning is getting my order in for the 'Never kissed a Remainer' T-shirt. After Cameron and Osborne's shenanigans, it'll be a cold day in hell before I vote Tory again.

It won't be the Tories who will suffer, longterm, it will be Labour. 30-40% of their voters will vote LEAVE and do it angrily. If half of them shift to UKIP?

Anyway I am now bulk-ordering a consignment of DON'T BLAME ME, I VOTED LEAVE tee shirts.

You only did so because you think Remain has it.

Otherwise you would have voted Remain.

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Although in the end I came to a different conclusion as to which way to vote, I struggled with the genuine concerns and the crapness of the campaigns. A typically thoughtful approach from you, the best approach no doubt.

My wife tells me I have now voted but won't tell me which side. ;-)

nunu said:

IanB2 said:

nunu said:

OK just came back from a vote leave campaign centre and there was nothing to do because we have no to very little data! Remain are united so have masses of data whereas ukip ran their own campaign so weren't allowed to share their data with us. Its all over bar the crying.

An interesting post - although of course from just one locality.

But of all the handicaps the Leavers faced, their inability to come together as a single campaign is probably the biggest - not just in terms of grass roots organisation but because of the consequential confused messaging, obvious personality clashes between prominent characters, and inability to put together a shared prospectus...

Their ground game was so bad they couldn't get a poster out to me during whole campaign.

Sounds about as good as the infamous Labour ground game of the 2015 GE....

Anecdotal Norwich evidence. Turnout steady, similar to GE level, nothing received from OUT at any stage, several remain pamphlets etc. this will be a heavy remain area but the county areas will vote OUT by a good wedge.

AndyJS said:

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

Since it looks as if Remain will win, it's sensible to vote Leave.

Sean_F said:

AndyJS said:

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

Since it looks as if Remain will win, it's sensible to vote Leave.

If you're convinced that Remain is in the bag, the best course is to vote Leave. The result needs to be as tight as possible.

Verulamius said:

How likely is a split in the tories, official (liberal) conservatives with Cameron and a breakaway faction (social) conservatives which go after the UKIP and working class ex Labour voters?

If Farage goes, the BOO Tories will try and oust Dave and get BOO in charge, failing which they will break off and 'legitimise' UKIP in a merger.

Ukip might do well to get someone like Flynn as their leader rather than Farage. There are people who would be tempted to vote for them under a different leader.

pbr2013 said:

Anecdata. Chatting to the barman in a West End pub. Young, posh. Family from the sticks. Off to vote Leave on his lunch break. Says he doesn't believe a word either campaign say but has spent hours reading independently this week. Says he can't tell his flatmates because they would "have his head on a stick". Convinced me that there are shy leavers in London.

I have to empathise with this guy. My facebook is filled with some awful remanian comments about the mental abilities of those voting leave. I am friends with a couple of people who work at the BBC, and one guy said 'literally no-one I have spoke to is voting leave' which I though was unsurprising, but which he thought was instructive.

I had actually come out for leave early on in the campaign and in discussions with my friends I got absolutely slated. I have come around to thinking that the EU wont last that long and there is no point in an economic shock now and at failure of the EU when the EU Bureaucrats try to push through fiscal and political union.

I was living in Germany when the Euro came in and there was significant disquiet then at the prospect - I can't imagine they will want to sign up for forever subsidies to Clubmed nations, and I just cannot see that the EZ nations will in effect federate and harmonize tax and welfare.

We already know most of this but it's interesting to read anyway:

"The referendum has revealed a great divide in Britain. According to YouGov polling, the overwhelming majority of university graduates — 70 per cent — have been for Remain. But among those with nothing above some GCSEs, a similarly big majority — 68 per cent — has been for Leave. The highest social classes have been for Remain (62 per cent). The lowest have been for Leave (63 per cent).
There has also been a city versus country divide. Parts of London have been well over 70 per cent for Remain, whereas country areas — particularly on the coast — have been for Leave.
Every election is divisive, but none has pitted rich against poor like this one. The social divide is far more dramatic than the divide between the two main political parties."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/britains-great-divide/

I've said it before and I'll say it again we NEED electoral reform after this. FPTP with the two big party system crushing the smaller parties is surely on it's last legs? The Tories are a coalition that is pulling apart and so are Labour, its ridiculous.

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

david_herdson said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Incredible how many are investing based on opinion poll results given the lack of a previous election to base it on and what happened last year - not to mention all the mid match methodology changes

It's not just that; it's how every Remain-positive poll shifts the market but a Leave-positive poll doesn't do the same the other way.

My average of this week's eve of poll numbers (I think BMG are far too dated to be included, but if they are included, one should also include their online numbers) gives Remain 51.8%, to Leave 48.2% (Populus 55/45, MORI 52/48, Com Res 54/46, Survation 51/49, ORB 54/46, Yougov 51/49, Opinium 49/51, TNS 49/51). We don't have any ICM numbers, unfortunately.

Each of Yougov, TNS, MORI, Com Res, ORB, have made adjustments that slightly favour Remain, compared to their preceding poll.

Is this the first public populus poll since March?

Yes.

Worth noting too, that some of the pollsters most favourable to Leave (ICM, ORB online, BMG online, haven't done eve of poll numbers).

FrankBooth said:

Ukip might do well to get someone like Flynn as their leader rather than Farage. There are people who would be tempted to vote for them under a different leader.

If there was a chance UKIP could get rid of Farage and pivot onto a social democracy platform, they could eliminate Labour forever.

pinkrose said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again we NEED electoral reform after this. FPTP with the two big party system crushing the smaller parties is surely on it's last legs? The Tories are a coalition that is pulling apart and so are Labour, its ridiculous.

Yes, the Tories are effectively a coalition (as are Labour) - but what's wrong with that? We have internal disgareements rather than coalition fallings out.

Sean_F said:

AndyJS said:

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

Since it looks as if Remain will win, it's sensible to vote Leave.

Everyone still to vote who's undecided should vote Leave now, to compress the margin.

Farage's poster was definitely a mistake in terms of trying to win over floating voters. I'm not sure what he was thinking when he commissioned it. Leave was doing very nicely in the polls at the time so it wasn't necessary to take a risk with it.

Last post for the moment. Daughter and I walked the pooches up to the polling station, seemed very quiet.

I voted Leave on the basis that the EU has now fallen between two stools. All that grand, idealistic vision of a Federal Europe that took off in '92 and reached apogee in '07 has now sputtered and died post Crash.

There is no appetite for any further treaty. There's just a seemingly endless tinkering around with technical measures. The Eurozone's integration is limping along - the latest directive on Banking Union came out this week, but again, who is going to force that through?

I'd hoped that Brexit would galvanise Europe and give it the impetus to do what is necessary. In the medium term I saw it as something that would be helpful to all parties. Alas, it looks like my dream will remain out of reach.

rcs1000 said:

GIN1138 said:

Euro is back on the agenda from tomorrow.

Really? Germany, who wanted Greece to leave the Eurozone, would like to force a country that doesn't want to be a member, in against their wishes.

I know lots of German politicians. They want to save the Eurozone. They have not the slightest interest in trying to force someone who doesn't want to be a member from joining. Why would they?

Germany won't "force" us in, our political "leaders" will sign us up.

When I say the Euro is back on the agenda tomorrow, I mean the campaign to get us to join re-starts tomorrow. This REMAIN win (if it's a landslide) will be the launch pad. Of course it won't be immediate... I imagine it will take a decade of slow and insidious "softening up" of the British public but we know where end game is. Where it has always been for the europhiles.

Tomorrow is the beginning of the end for the Pound, IMO.

Blue_rog said:

Nemtynakht said:

Not posted for a long while. I've reluctantly voted remain today as I cannot see the EU lasting lasting beyond the inevitable move to political and fiscal union in the EZ, and as such it would seem foolish to shock our economy twice.

I

That is probably the most convincing argument to vote remain that I've heard for the whole campaign!

Not really. The shock we will experience being inside a collapsing EU will be far worse than anything we might have felt had we left.

I loved this from Guido's site (he is quoting a third party, so that is probably why :-) )

"David Cowling, the BBC’s head of political research, in an internal memo…

“It seems to me that the London bubble has to burst if there is to be any prospect of addressing the issues that have brought us to our current situation. There are many millions of people in the UK who do not enthuse about diversity and do not embrace metropolitan values yet do not consider themselves lesser human beings for all that. Until their values and opinions are acknowledged and respected, rather than ignored and despised, our present discord will persist. Because these discontents run very wide and very deep and the metropolitan political class, confronted by them, seems completely bewildered and at a loss about how to respond (“who are these ghastly people and where do they come from?” doesn’t really hack it). The 2016 EU referendum has witnessed the cashing in of some very bitter bankable grudges but I believe that, throughout this 2016 campaign, Europe has been the shadow not the substance.”

http://order-order.com/2016/06/23/

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

AndyJS said:

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

Since it looks as if Remain will win, it's sensible to vote Leave.

Everyone still to vote who's undecided should vote Leave now, to compress the margin.

It's still very possible that Leave will win. The polling really isn't saying game over.

PlatoSaid said:

KentRising said:

FrankBooth said:

Ukip might do well to get someone like Flynn as their leader rather than Farage. There are people who would be tempted to vote for them under a different leader.

Steven Woolfe. Flynn's just a bit weird.

Woolfe is always very credible on the telly.

That's twice they've cried Woolfe, I fear what's next!

williamglenn said:

dyedwoolie said:

Verulamius said:

How likely is a split in the tories, official (liberal) conservatives with Cameron and a breakaway faction (social) conservatives which go after the UKIP and working class ex Labour voters?

If Farage goes, the BOO Tories will try and oust Dave and get BOO in charge, failing which they will break off and 'legitimise' UKIP in a merger.

Any merger is more likely to delegitimise the splitters. It wouldn't be like the SDP split which posed an existential threat to Labour that they survived by the skin of their teeth. On the contrary, the Tories, minus the Eurofanatics, would be the only game in town for serious government.

There will be no meaningful split, of the Tories, of Labour or of UKIP. There may be defections. There is no real need to split when the vehicles are already largely in place to cater for those so disillusioned with their own party that they want out.

if Leave do manage to somehow pull this off, the egg on faces is going to be huge, and the markets will be in chaos tomorrow

If we vote Remain:

(1) Farage should resign tomorrow morning. Properly this time.

(2) Cameron will stay until 2019.

(3) The next recession will be 100% Osborne's fault.

(4) Priti Patel will have more time to spend in her dungeon.

GIN1138 said:

rcs1000 said:

GIN1138 said:

Euro is back on the agenda from tomorrow.

Really? Germany, who wanted Greece to leave the Eurozone, would like to force a country that doesn't want to be a member, in against their wishes.

I know lots of German politicians. They want to save the Eurozone. They have not the slightest interest in trying to force someone who doesn't want to be a member from joining. Why would they?

Germany won't "force" us in, our political "leaders" will sign us up.

When I say the Euro is back on the agenda tomorrow, I mean the campaign to get us to join re-starts tomorrow. This REMAIN win (if it's a landslide) will be the launch pad. Of course it won't be immediate... I imagine it will take a decade of slow and insidious "softening up" of the British public but we know where end game is. Where it has always been for the europhiles.

Tomorrow is the beginning of the end for the Pound, IMO.

I realise this is just make believe to try and shock a few undecided into voting Leave but if Blair and his fellow Europhiles weren't able to get us to join the euro 15 years ago when it was shiny and new, then there is no way we will be joining now.

kjohnw said:

if Leave do manage to somehow pull this off, the egg on faces is going to be huge, and the markets will be in chaos tomorrow

EICIPM

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

AndyJS said:

JosiasJessop said:

Now for the personal: I have found this the hardest choice at an election ever; much harder than even my first vote at the 1992 GE in Leyton and Wanstead. Both campaigns have been lacklustre, and the future direction of the country under both leave and remain muddy. A decision made harder by the fact that I have been trying to work out the best for my son whilst knowing that we might never get another bite at this cherry before he is an adult, if then.

As much as some might say it is an easy choice, and the case unarguable, it is not. If either of the campaigns had actually been competent then it might be another matter: but they were not.

So how did I vote? As I have said many times before I see leaving as inevitable in the medium- and long-term, and I'd rather it was done sooner than later. But I find it hard to countenance a non-EEA leave option, and that has not been placed on the table by the leave campaign. The government choosing an EEA route after the leave campaign's rejection of that route would be a betrayal of the voters.

People around me have not made the choice easier: staunch remainers (to the extent of having posters in their windows) use the staid old arguments such as 'the EU has kept peace', whilst the leavers have been solely mentioning immigration. No-one I've known has been as insightful as many of the comments on here.

I finally made my decision last night. Although I am not a Conservative, I am fairly small-c conservative and cautious. As such: although Remain have not persuaded me that the EU will not continue on the same slow road to integration, Leave had utterly failed to persuade me that the change they propose is better or wise. Whilst I had been falling off the fence towards Leave for a long time; the Leave campaign and some of the messages from its supporters have repulsed me much more than the Remain campaign.

As such, I have reluctantly chosen remain. My only hope is that my fears about the direction of the EU are unfounded.

I feel slightly dirty. But I fear not as dirty as if I had voted Leave.

Finally: thanks to David Cameron for giving me this opportunity to make a choice.

Thanks Josias, this could be helpful to me in making a final decision by 9:30 tonight.

Since it looks as if Remain will win, it's sensible to vote Leave.

Everyone still to vote who's undecided should vote Leave now, to compress the margin.

That's what my brother in law has done.

This is crazy. What margin? Nobody knows. Polls could be wrong.

If you completely undecided, then stick to the existing status quo. There's no going back.

FrankBooth said:

pinkrose said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again we NEED electoral reform after this. FPTP with the two big party system crushing the smaller parties is surely on it's last legs? The Tories are a coalition that is pulling apart and so are Labour, its ridiculous.

What an irony that would be for the Lib Dems. They get into government and fail hopelessly to get electoral reform. They then get annihilated by the electorate and what do you know, electoral reform is just around the corner to the benefit of.........

Ukip. Spare a thought for Nick Clegg.

Not just UKIP but the Greens as well.

I just think there is such a range of political views in England now that FPTP is really damaging and is a big factor in people feeling disenfranchised from politics and the "nothing ever changes" attitude. We need Proportional Representation, if not in the HoC then an elected second chamber, with PR.