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So just a 1.5% swing and 1% separating the two sides - all to play for yet.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday0 -
It's midterm for Cameron - if Remain win he'll go in 2017 I bet.justin124 said:
Midterm will not arrive until start of 2017. Comres Online regularly produces the biggest Tory leads . Mori put it at 1% this week . Tooting saw a much better Labour result than implied by any of the polls.ThreeQuidder said:
It's midterm, duh.HYUFD said:
Yet Labour have cut the Tories lead from 7% at the general election to 5% now as the Tories have lost even more voters to UKIP than LabourWulfrun_Phil said:Re Westminster VI, I am not at all surprised that Labour is sub 30% in the context of its stance on the referendum vote.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenlandic_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1982tyson said:
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.Tykejohnno said:
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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YouGov = another outlier
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True but enough to clinch itNoEasyDay said:
Aggreed, if it hadn't been this murder they would have found another moral reason to justify there decision. There just silly people socks and sandals brigade.HYUFD said:
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anywayalex. said:
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.HYUFD said:
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goesTheScreamingEagles said:
Although I wouldn't say all undecided are these tossers. Many wont vote at all. And some will go leave.0 -
I don't know the answer to your question. I need to point out that voting LEAVE will not make a difference because altho they have promised immigration controls they have conspicuously not promised immigration limits. But that answer doesn't make your situation better, it makes it worse. So I don't have an answer for you, for which I apologise.PrinceofTaranto said:It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
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So the Saturday Times backs Remain and the Sunday Times Leave!KentRising said:
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
I notice Ladbrokes have broken ranks by offering 3.0 for LEAVE, whereas the other bookies are averaging 2.75. Perhaps Mr. Shaddick is simply nimbler on his feet.0
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Oh, come on. You can't seriously be claiming that the government is still in the honeymoon phase?justin124 said:
Midterm will not arrive until start of 2017.ThreeQuidder said:
It's midterm, duh.HYUFD said:
Yet Labour have cut the Tories lead from 7% at the general election to 5% now as the Tories have lost even more voters to UKIP than LabourWulfrun_Phil said:Re Westminster VI, I am not at all surprised that Labour is sub 30% in the context of its stance on the referendum vote.
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A good solution.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
4 full days for leave to get this back.0
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Yes, but the movement tonight is all one way.peter_from_putney said:
So just a 1.5% swing and 1% separating the two sides - all to play for yet.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday
The trend is your friend, etc... REMAIN are back in the driving seat. It's there's to lose now, IMO.0 -
Don't people think that both the Sunday Times and MoS probably commissioned about 3 separate polls and have both run the one most favourable to their editorial decision on the referendum?
Always like a cynical conspiracy theory...0 -
I do like the idea that different papers have different opinions and are arguing from different perspectives.Scott_P said:
I would, however prefer it if papers reported a little more critically (as in examine statements with care and not just repeat them and counter claims) and let people decide.0 -
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish LabourGIN1138 said:HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....0 -
Although backing leave whilst advancing the case that there will be short to medium term economic difficulties could be interpreted either way...HYUFD said:
So the Saturday Times backs Remain and the Sunday Times Leave!KentRising said:
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
It should have been a doddle for him to win if he'd actually gained any reform - or if, having failed to do so, he'd recognised the fact and come out for Leave.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Instead, he decided to rig it.0 -
Amazing that both the two Times titles and those of the Mail have split their vote.
Where does this leave SeanT as regards his bet with OGH?0 -
If that is the solution you are offering to millions like me I suggest you get your hard hatsRoger said:
A good solution.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
because this is going to get very nasty0 -
FF43 said:
You're talking to a guy who went to a grammar, and whose brother didn't. There was no issue with my parents. They accepted that he'd failed the 11+, and 3 years later I passed mine. Parents don't hate grammars, the only people I've met who do are people who dislike them for ideological reasons. They usually send their own kids to Dulwich or some other public school, mind....KentRising said:
Parents HATE grammar schools. That's why there's no rush to bring them back. Think about it. Chloe gets into grammar school. Her parents are ecstatic. Sam, Will and Emma don't. Their parents are not pleased at the rejection and that their children get a second class education. The setup means there are more second class students than first class ones. Which is a problem when those parents vote.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.BenedictWhite said:
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.HYUFD said:
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?Lowlander said:
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!tyson said:
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.0 -
It's a couple of percent of people who will still vote leave but feel they need to be tactful if asked.GIN1138 said:
Yes, but the movement tonight is all one way.peter_from_putney said:
So just a 1.5% swing and 1% separating the two sides - all to play for yet.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday
The trend is your friend, etc... REMAIN are back in the driving seat. It's there's to lose now, IMO.0 -
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?Cyclefree said:Hello all.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.0 -
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.0 -
As with the Times backing Remain only with major reformalex. said:
Although backing leave whilst advancing the case that there will be short to medium term economic difficulties could be interpreted either way...HYUFD said:
So the Saturday Times backs Remain and the Sunday Times Leave!KentRising said:
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
Some people might take the view that a rigged vote, rigged ineptly, is possibly not a vote that has been rigged...YBarddCwsc said:
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
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Who know's what circumstances they will engineer to get us into the Euro in due course.HYUFD said:
Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish LabourGIN1138 said:HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
You are judging things as they are now... But "events dear boy, events" have a big impact.0 -
@ShippersUnbound: Key finding of ST/YouGov poll: 33% now think Brexit will hurt their finances. Up from 23% two weeks ago0
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NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
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There will be no circumstances the public ever accept the euro, if the establishment try UKIP will win a landslide on an SNP scale!GIN1138 said:
Who know's what circumstances they will engineer to get us into the Euro in due course.HYUFD said:
Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish LabourGIN1138 said:HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
You are judging things as they are now... But "events dear boy, events" have a big impact.0 -
Maybe, but only one is advocating a vote against people's immediate financial interests.HYUFD said:
As with the Times backing Remain only with major reformalex. said:
Although backing leave whilst advancing the case that there will be short to medium term economic difficulties could be interpreted either way...HYUFD said:
So the Saturday Times backs Remain and the Sunday Times Leave!KentRising said:
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
You sound like a Corbynista.Richard_Tyndall said:
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Where is the link to those five other deal-related documents?0 -
Read it.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I have never read it, despite having a mini-library of Graham Hancock's other works.BenedictWhite said:
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.SeanT said:
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.0 -
The Times's position was nonsense. You can either vote REMAIN or LEAVE; obviously it has to be unconditional in either case.HYUFD said:
As with the Times backing Remain only with major reformalex. said:
Although backing leave whilst advancing the case that there will be short to medium term economic difficulties could be interpreted either way...HYUFD said:
So the Saturday Times backs Remain and the Sunday Times Leave!KentRising said:
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
..... including the cheese!TOPPING said:
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?Cyclefree said:Hello all.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.0 -
Have you tried buying a dehumidifier and/ or air purifier for your home. I have suffered from asthma for many years, and since using these I am completely off my meds.Cyclefree said:Hello all.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
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If you are applying the adverb "ineptly" to Cameron, then we are in agreement.alex. said:
Some people might take the view that a rigged vote, rigged ineptly, is possibly not a vote that has been rigged...YBarddCwsc said:
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
I am not a Tory, but if I were, I might be very angry at what he has done to the party by his ineptitude.
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Perhaps move to Taranto as per his moniker?viewcode said:
I don't know the answer to your question. I need to point out that voting LEAVE will not make a difference because altho they have promised immigration controls they have conspicuously not promised immigration limits. But that answer doesn't make your situation better, it makes it worse. So I don't have an answer for you, for which I apologise.PrinceofTaranto said:It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
The reality is that of the projected 4 million population increase over the next 15 years, 2 million comes from natural increase in the birthrate, of the other 2 million half arises from non-EU immigration. The difference between Leave and Remain is just 25% of that increase or 1 million people in 15 years - assuming that there is no further EU immigration at all. In reality some of those EU migrants will be needed, including my Greek doctors and Portuguese nurses.
The difference between Remain and Leave on immigration becomes margin of error. It is worth noting that the majority of the population change is in the over 75's, the population in the younger age groups remains stable, indicating very little additional competition for jobs or school places.
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That joke is going to run and run...peter_from_putney said:
..... including the cheese!TOPPING said:
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?Cyclefree said:Hello all.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.0 -
There's nothing wrong with an anecdote per se but a Leave voter who had already voted deciding - through whatever process - that she was now 'even more firmly' leave doesn't really tell us anything.TOPPING said:
Plenty of people on here post anecdotes.david_herdson said:
It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.Lowlander said:
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.0 -
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.GIN1138 said:
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.0 -
Any one know who's doing the Wembley debate? It's on Tuesday and should get a big audience.0
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https://www.scribd.com/doc/299847249/0216-EUCO-ConclusionsTOPPING said:
You sound like a Corbynista.Richard_Tyndall said:
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.alex. said:
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.ThreeQuidder said:
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Where is the link to those five other deal-related documents?
The main conclusions plus the annexes.
You might like to look at Annex II Article 1 which outlines the procedure to be followed if a non Eurozone member objects to any new legislative acts agreed by the rest of the Council. You will note that there is no means for a non Eurozone member to prevent that legislation passing and the last paragraph
"While taking due account of the possible urgency of the matter and based on the reasons for opposing as indicated under paragraph 1, a request for a discussion in the European Council on the issue, before it returns to the Council for decision, may constitute such an initiative. Any such referral is without prejudice to the normal operation of the legislative procedure of the Union and cannot result in a situation which would amount to allowing a Member State a veto. "0 -
The definition of 'reformed' seems to have acquired a new meaning of 'changed in the way I want', while 'unreformed' means 'changed in the way I don't want'.david_herdson said:
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.GIN1138 said:
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.0 -
You've really only just realised that?williamglenn said:
The definition of 'reformed' seems to have acquired a new meaning of 'changed in the way I want', while 'unreformed' means 'changed in the way I don't want'.david_herdson said:
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.GIN1138 said:
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.0 -
I am surprised the ways the polls are swinging about. Is it that peeps are genuinely changing their mind from day to today. Unlikely in my mind.
Or is it that the pollsters don't know there arse from their elbows. And so desperate not to be found as wrong as at the 2015 election they are trimming and tacking to keep as close to the consensus as possible.0
