Survation phone poll conducted on Friday and Saturday,
Remain 45% (+3) Leave 42% (-3)
Meh, that's in the immediate aftermath with huge media coverage. I don't think it will change the picture for Thursday.
I was right. 5 point swing. Add in status quo swing back and remain will win. It's a tragic way to decide a referendum. Simply awful.
IF that happens (still uncertain), why should anyone on the Leave side accept the result?
What reason could we have for not accepting it?! Not liking the potential reason people may have used to sway their vote? I don't care about immigration but plan to vote Leave, should I not accept a Leave win because I don't agree with people using immigration as a basis to vote Leave?
Reasons for people voting were discussed earlier, and it bears repeating - people vote for stupid reasons sometimes, or based on misconceptions, faulty assumptions and ignorance. Their votes still count.
I'm not convinced by this poll either, it's not that massive a swing, and I expect Leave to win, if more narrowly than before, but if people vote Remain, it doesn't matter what decided it for them.
Oh how us Eurosceptic Tories laughed and Laughed...
I was having a chat with Mr Soames in 2010 just after the coalition was formed at a celebration.
I said the LDs would be arriving to the next parliament in a mini bus at best and he assured me they would be fine... I assured him they wouldn't.
I feel sorry for them because they did the right thing, but you can't buck reality.
It's ironic how some people are now looking back on the Coalition years with a degree of nostalgia.
I'm probably now as detached from the party as I've ever been but I can't see the shape of politics past Thursday. It's not going to be easy for Conservatives to put the genie back in the bottle - too much has been said which will be remembered. Cameron may try to play at being all the king's horses and all the king's men but I doubt he can put the Humpty Dumpty party back together again.
Cameron's theory of party unity is based on WWTSD What Would Tony Soprano Do?
Don't stop believin' in Dave
(A true Sopranos fan will get that reference)
Tic tac.....the greatest episode of TV ever.
What a way to.......??? Just showing I'm a Sopranobeliever
I still think Breaking Bad was slightly better than The Sopranos, but loved both shows
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
First, what does a synthetic clearing house mean? Second, it regulates us when we trade european stocks.
Prime brokerages, they will self clear securities trades.
And what? Stock trades are bread and butter. It's derivatives trading that matters, I struggle to see how the City would continue to come under EU regulations, then again I'm not in regulations, yet the experts in our reports specifically outlined how being outside of EU regulations for derivatives would be a net gain for the City, again a reason why the Hedge funds back Leave.
What is the proportion of funds under management for hedge funds and institutional asset managers?
What do you mean "stock trades are bread and butter"?
There's no money in trading cash equities.
Still not sure what that means
Europe trading = approx EUR70bn/day.
Margins are a fraction of a penny in some cases (surprised the euro denominated cash equity trading volumes numbers are that high but thats not a number I track)
given the high fixed cost of a cash equity desk and the trend towards electronic trading it's brutally competitive and chronically unprofitable unless you are really big in a specific product.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a d
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
I watch news a lot and all I heard she worked overseas for charities. A lot of people feel like charities like Oxfarm have become money making organizations, rightly or wrongly.
Well do some more bloody research before forming an opinion.
What! I'm talking about the average voter, they won't know more about her than I do.
Here you go. Took me 20 seconds on Google. You might disagree with her opinions but this, to my mind, is exactly the sort of person we need in politics.
"Cox was born on 22 June 1974 in Batley, West Yorkshire, England, and raised in Heckmondwike. Her mother was a school secretary while her father worked in a toothpaste and hairspray factory.[7] She was educated at Heckmondwike Grammar School, a state grammar school, where she was head girl. During summers, she worked packing toothpaste.[7]
Cox studied Social and Political Sciences at Pembroke College, Cambridge, and graduated from the University of Cambridge with a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree in 1995. She was the first in her family to attend university. She later studied at the London School of Economics.[1][8][9][10][11] She later recalled that her experience at Cambridge, where family pedigrees were viewed as important, "knocked me for about five years".[1]"
My mum's not going to do a Google search. I'm not agreeing with some peoples perception, just reporting on it.
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Except that it appears that we have a lot less grammar educated top politicians and more privately educated ones now.
Oh how us Eurosceptic Tories laughed and Laughed...
I was having a chat with Mr Soames in 2010 just after the coalition was formed at a celebration.
I said the LDs would be arriving to the next parliament in a mini bus at best and he assured me they would be fine... I assured him they wouldn't.
I feel sorry for them because they did the right thing, but you can't buck reality.
It's ironic how some people are now looking back on the Coalition years with a degree of nostalgia.
I'm probably now as detached from the party as I've ever been but I can't see the shape of politics past Thursday. It's not going to be easy for Conservatives to put the genie back in the bottle - too much has been said which will be remembered. Cameron may try to play at being all the king's horses and all the king's men but I doubt he can put the Humpty Dumpty party back together again.
Cameron's theory of party unity is based on WWTSD What Would Tony Soprano Do?
Don't stop believin' in Dave
(A true Sopranos fan will get that reference)
Tic tac.....the greatest episode of TV ever.
What a way to.......??? Just showing I'm a Sopranobeliever
I still think Breaking Bad was slightly better than The Sopranos, but loved both shows
Both great, really great, but still overrated, in my view. But then I like things with more of a fantasy/sci-fi bent - you can do everything other excellent shows do, but also include cool fantastical things.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I'd still be careful reading into one poll. Not sure the swing is that significant - I still fully expect a remain win but It will be close
If and its avery big if that this tragedy has had any effect on this poll then its effect will have worn off by Thursday
What the referendum has shown, like the IndyRef before it, is that referendums are a really bad idea.
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
When the blackest of black swans hit, I was very much of the mind that it would swing things towards Leave. However, it appears this is less likely than I thought. On speaking to my no voting mother, it appears that Jo Cox is just the sort of leftie that the small c conservative middle really do not like much.
My mum's actually angry at the level of deification and coverage that its getting and its making her an even more committed leaver (of course, she has already postal voted Leave for both herself and my father). But as the only Christian (and a committed one) in my family and one of the nicest people you might meet, I was absolutely flabbergasted by the level of contempt she had for a victim of a horrible tragedy.
I'm now of a mind that the very idea that Jo Cox awful murder might have the exact opposite effect to what the Westminster bubble have expected (and I had expected myself) and it might harden Leave still further.
So your nice Christian mum has contempt for someone who was murdered by someone who is reportedly on the same side of the argument as herself. Glad I'm an atheist. BTW You say 'Leave' in your first sentence, I guess you mean 'Remain'.
Yes I did mean Remain, I was unable to edit it.
She does not have contempt for someone who was murdered. She has contempt for those on the liberal left who have the career path of Jo Cox and if she was aware of Jo Cox before her murder would have felt the same way. The murder is irrelevant to the view of what Jo Cox represents to people like my mother.
.
"I was absolutely flabbergasted by the level of contempt she had for a victim of a horrible tragedy."
Perhaps you should have been more careful in your posting if you didn't mean it...
I believe he's saying the fact that she was murdered does not redeem her in his mother's eyes - and that he found that surprising
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Margaret Thatcher in 1977: "People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
While not my preferred outcome, if it is Remain I hope it is that strong - that way no one can complain about the result (credibly) and the only people still in a war will be Tories.
One more thing (!!) - can some Leavers at least understand why the stuff downthread about a deregulated, offshore City frightens the life out of some of us Remainers?
Why do you think the official campaign and its funders are keeping quiet about it?
Mr. Gin, Rome's everlasting success was once deemed inevitable.
The EU's going to fall. It's a question of when. The longer it is, the more things will have integrated, and the worse the impact will be. Right now, it'd lead to economic problems and perhaps civil strife.
In a decade or two, we could be looking at small scale military action.
A decade or two after that...
A vote to Remain for fear of the probable short term pain is a vote to embrace the agony of later years. I suspect it'll happen in my lifetime.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
What the referendum has shown, like the IndyRef before it, is that referendums are a really bad idea.
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
If that means a UKIP majority, so be it.
Aren't we supposed to have a referendum anytime there is a new transfer of power to the EU?
Don't see that policy lasting much longer than 24th June do you?
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
I too was not overimpressed by Lowlander's mum. However, it is usually thought polite not to go up to people and tell them that their mum smells of poo, at least not since primary school. Lowlander was accurately reporting voting-relevant information, which for this site is the exception. The fact that it was unpleasant information is not relevant. You should have thanked him, not excoriated his mother, regardless of how much you thought she deserved it.
"Ken" who posted here last week was a somewhat grating fellow who referred to Remanians as "Federasts" and other similar witticisms. But he reported accurately and at length his experiences as a LEAVE campaigner in Glasgow and I was pleased that he took the time to do so, and I hope he will do so again. We spend so much time arguing about stuff we can ill afford to reject reports from the front line when they fall in our laps.
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
What the referendum has shown, like the IndyRef before it, is that referendums are a really bad idea.
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
If that means a UKIP majority, so be it.
Democracy is a bad idea? We can have BOTH direct and representative democracy. Very many of the arguments against one form often apply to the other.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
I too was not overimpressed by Lowlander's mum. However, it is usually thought polite not to go up to people and tell them that their mum smells of poo, at least not since primary school. Lowlander was accurately reporting voting-relevant information, which for this site is the exception. The fact that it was unpleasant information is not relevant. You should have thanked him, not excoriated his mother, regardless of how much you thought she deserved it.
"Ken" who posted here last week was a somewhat grating fellow who referred to Remanians as "Federasts" and other similar witticisms. But he reported accurately and at length his experiences as a LEAVE campaigner in Glasgow and I was pleased that he took the time to do so, and I hope he will do so again. We spend so much time arguing about stuff we can ill afford to reject reports from the front line when they fall in our laps.
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
One more thing (!!) - can some Leavers at least understand why the stuff downthread about a deregulated, offshore City frightens the life out of some of us Remainers?
Why do you think being regulated closer to the coal face is worse than being regulated from farther away?
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
Unless we join the eurozone we will never be in the Superstate and the only chance of that is a big Remain win, even on tonight's poll probably gone now as a possibility
What! I'm talking about the average voter, they won't know more about her than I do.
Here you go. Took me 20 seconds on Google. You might disagree with her opinions but this, to my mind, is exactly the sort of person we need in politics.
"Cox was born on 22 June 1974 in Batley, West Yorkshire, England, and raised in Heckmondwike. Her mother was a school secretary while her father worked in a toothpaste and hairspray factory.[7] She was educated at Heckmondwike Grammar School, a state grammar school, where she was head girl. During summers, she worked packing toothpaste.[7]
Cox studied Social and Political Sciences at Pembroke College, Cambridge, and graduated from the University of Cambridge with a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree in 1995. She was the first in her family to attend university. She later studied at the London School of Economics.[1][8][9][10][11] She later recalled that her experience at Cambridge, where family pedigrees were viewed as important, "knocked me for about five years".[1]"
My mum's not going to do a Google search. I'm not agreeing with some peoples perception, just reporting on it.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Margaret Thatcher in 1977: "People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
Like on the EU, Thatcher said one thing, and did another
Margaret Thatcher holds the prize as the secretary of state who closed or merged the most grammar schools for a comprehensive alternative.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
The single best thing that ever happened to me - apart from being born to my extraordinary parents - was to go to the last ILEA grammar school. There were expectations. You were expected to go to university. I was exceptionally lucky.
Just remember the Survation poll was run at peak emotion after the murder (as well as peak 'Britain First' outburst - but see how Mair pled) - we have 5 days for things to settle down.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competition
What the referendum has shown, like the IndyRef before it, is that referendums are a really bad idea.
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
If that means a UKIP majority, so be it.
I think the mistake was not having referenda in getting to where we are now. But I agree that politicians shouldn't offer them when they are not comfortable with one side winning. Cameron only promised this because he wanted to shoot the Ukip fox. As it turned out, he probably didn't need to do it.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
I too was not overimpressed by Lowlander's mum. However, it is usually thought polite not to go up to people and tell them that their mum smells of poo, at least not since primary school. Lowlander was accurately reporting voting-relevant information, which for this site is the exception. The fact that it was unpleasant information is not relevant. You should have thanked him, not excoriated his mother, regardless of how much you thought she deserved it.
"Ken" who posted here last week was a somewhat grating fellow who referred to Remanians as "Federasts" and other similar witticisms. But he reported accurately and at length his experiences as a LEAVE campaigner in Glasgow and I was pleased that he took the time to do so, and I hope he will do so again. We spend so much time arguing about stuff we can ill afford to reject reports from the front line when they fall in our laps.
What! I'm talking about the average voter, they won't know more about her than I do.
Here you go. Took me 20 seconds on Google. You might disagree with her opinions but this, to my mind, is exactly the sort of person we need in politics.
"Cox was born on 22 June 1974 in Batley, West Yorkshire, England, and raised in Heckmondwike. Her mother was a school secretary while her father worked in a toothpaste and hairspray factory.[7] She was educated at Heckmondwike Grammar School, a state grammar school, where she was head girl. During summers, she worked packing toothpaste.[7]
Cox studied Social and Political Sciences at Pembroke College, Cambridge, and graduated from the University of Cambridge with a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree in 1995. She was the first in her family to attend university. She later studied at the London School of Economics.[1][8][9][10][11] She later recalled that her experience at Cambridge, where family pedigrees were viewed as important, "knocked me for about five years".[1]"
My mum's not going to do a Google search. I'm not agreeing with some peoples perception, just reporting on it.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
The single best thing that ever happened to me - apart from being born to my extraordinary parents - was to go to the last ILEA grammar school. There were expectations. You were expected to go to university. I was exceptionally lucky.
Yes, without grammar school I'm not sure I'd be doing what I'm doing now. My parents played a big part in it of course, but grammar school made it possible for me to receive an education usually reserved for the middle and upper classes at no cost to my parents who could never have afforded private education for me.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
The single best thing that ever happened to me - apart from being born to my extraordinary parents - was to go to the last ILEA grammar school. There were expectations. You were expected to go to university. I was exceptionally lucky.
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
Unless we join the eurozone we will never be in the Superstate and the only chance of that is a big Remain win, even on tonight's poll probably gone now as a possibility
So we will continue to sit on the margins with our power and sovereignty seeping away as the Eurozone dominates the EU, subject to all the rules but with no control over them. It is a bleak vision you paint of our future.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competition
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"
What the referendum has shown, like the IndyRef before it, is that referendums are a really bad idea.
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
If that means a UKIP majority, so be it.
No, the problem isn't that we have had too many but not enough.
The tone of the debate is the issue not the debate itself. It has been filled with nasty vile attacks with people calling others nasty things like little Englanders, making offensive signs at people they disagree with (EG Bob Geldoff mocking fishermen).
If the debate were conducted by 8 year olds rather than 5 year olds the quality would be much better.
Power and money will continue to flow to Brussels. People will continue to be angered by rates of immigration and being called xenophobic or racist for wanting fewer to be allowed in.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Jo Cox went to one in the late eighties and nineties so there are still a few around
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
I too was not overimpressed by Lowlander's mum. However, it is usually thought polite not to go up to people and tell them that their mum smells of poo, at least not since primary school. Lowlander was accurately reporting voting-relevant information, which for this site is the exception. The fact that it was unpleasant information is not relevant. You should have thanked him, not excoriated his mother, regardless of how much you thought she deserved it.
"Ken" who posted here last week was a somewhat grating fellow who referred to Remanians as "Federasts" and other similar witticisms. But he reported accurately and at length his experiences as a LEAVE campaigner in Glasgow and I was pleased that he took the time to do so, and I hope he will do so again. We spend so much time arguing about stuff we can ill afford to reject reports from the front line when they fall in our laps.
What was his take on Glesga? Think I missed it.
It was actually Edinburgh, I think.
Oh, I think I read that. Sorry, its hard to type through the tears of laughter at the utter ineptitude of Cristiano Ronaldo this evening. Pleasing.
Mr. Eagles, no, he hasn't. We won't have another vote if we Leave and then there's a recession.
It's the opposite (but still wrong) of what the BBC business editor did when he asked Carney if he [Carney] could guarantee we wouldn't have a recession if we voted to Leave.
I also hate the fact that Leavers who have waited years for this feel that something utterly wrong and appalling may change the outcome of this referendum. What the hell is happening to our country?
I agree entirely. This whole thing has made me feel sick. It makes me ashamed to support my own side, and it makes me for the first time look at my country and grimace. For remain to win off the back of a murder is the most horrific end to this whole campaign. As Sean says, it will resolve nothing.
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
No, the problem isn't that we have had too many but not enough.
The tone of the debate is the issue not the debate itself. It has been filled with nasty vile attacks with people calling others nasty things like little Englanders, making offensive signs at people they disagree with (EG Bob Geldoff mocking fishermen).
If the debate were conducted by 8 year olds rather than 5 year olds the quality would be much better.
He can say it would have happened anyway, due to Osborne or the global situation. Granted, he would have denied that 6 months ago, but our memories are short.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
I too was not overimpressed by Lowlander's mum. However, it is usually thought polite not to go up to people and tell them that their mum smells of poo, at least not since primary school. Lowlander was accurately reporting voting-relevant information, which for this site is the exception. The fact that it was unpleasant information is not relevant. You should have thanked him, not excoriated his mother, regardless of how much you thought she deserved it.
"Ken" who posted here last week was a somewhat grating fellow who referred to Remanians as "Federasts" and other similar witticisms. But he reported accurately and at length his experiences as a LEAVE campaigner in Glasgow and I was pleased that he took the time to do so, and I hope he will do so again. We spend so much time arguing about stuff we can ill afford to reject reports from the front line when they fall in our laps.
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Nothing, since we don't know for sure that is the reason, or it is real, or will be maintained, and the reasons people decide their vote are already petty, so there's no difference.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
He can say it would have happened anyway, due to Osborne or the global situation. Granted, he would have denied that 6 months ago, but our memories are short.
I'm guessing that he's referencing the IMF report.
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Margaret Thatcher in 1977: "People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
Like on the EU, Thatcher said one thing, and did another
Margaret Thatcher holds the prize as the secretary of state who closed or merged the most grammar schools for a comprehensive alternative.
That does not mean she was right to do so. (I am in two minds myself. If I had the money I would start a Grammar and secondary modern. You would not be able to get on unless you could lay bricks, do a foreign language as well as be good at maths and the physical sciences.)
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
Unless we join the eurozone we will never be in the Superstate and the only chance of that is a big Remain win, even on tonight's poll probably gone now as a possibility
So we will continue to sit on the margins with our power and sovereignty seeping away as the Eurozone dominates the EU, subject to all the rules but with no control over them. It is a bleak vision you paint of our future.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
The single best thing that ever happened to me - apart from being born to my extraordinary parents - was to go to the last ILEA grammar school. There were expectations. You were expected to go to university. I was exceptionally lucky.
That is the one thing private schools have over the state system.
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
While I did pretty well out of my bog standard comprehensive.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Jo Cox went to one in the late eighties and nineties so there are still a few around
I went to a grammar school and my six form Latin class mate was Graham Brady- he was a year older than me, but they combined classes since there was only 3 of us...
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
Parents HATE grammar schools. That's why there's no rush to bring them back. Think about it. Chloe gets into grammar school. Her parents are ecstatic. Sam, Will and Emma don't. Their parents are not pleased at the rejection and that their children get a second class education. The setup means there are more second class students than first class ones. Which is a problem when those parents vote.
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.
Survation phone poll conducted on Friday and Saturday,
Remain 45% (+3) Leave 42% (-3)
Meh, that's in the immediate aftermath with huge media coverage. I don't think it will change the picture for Thursday.
I was right. 5 point swing. Add in status quo swing back and remain will win. It's a tragic way to decide a referendum. Simply awful.
IF that happens (still uncertain), why should anyone on the Leave side accept the result?
Because I'd hope Leavers supported democracy.
If Remain wins because of a killer (who either supports Remain or is insane), then it is not democracy.
You guys have spent the last couple of days telling us it won't shift more than a handful of votes now it going to become excuse to ignore the result if you lose.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Absolutely, the ire that seems to be aimed at her is something I don't understand. I don't agree with much of what she stood for, however, it is clear she tried to make a change for the better in a lot of places and for a lot of people that have no advocates at the top. For that she should be lauded. That her murder may lead to a Remain vote is hugely lamentable, but it is no reason to besmirch her legacy. The ire belongs in the direction of the nutter who murdered her and those who seek to politicise and take advantage of her murder.
@tag_freeman: Double-page editorial in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: "For a safer, freer, more prosperous & even greater Britain, we urge you to vote Remain"
Mr. Alex, or ignore the murder. It doesn't alter the UK's position in the world or the relationship we have with the EU, it's simply a tragedy for the family and friends of the victim.
Comments
Reasons for people voting were discussed earlier, and it bears repeating - people vote for stupid reasons sometimes, or based on misconceptions, faulty assumptions and ignorance. Their votes still count.
I'm not convinced by this poll either, it's not that massive a swing, and I expect Leave to win, if more narrowly than before, but if people vote Remain, it doesn't matter what decided it for them.
given the high fixed cost of a cash equity desk and the trend towards electronic trading it's brutally competitive and chronically unprofitable unless you are really big in a specific product.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
I'm still waiting for a drama to be made about the Macedonian dynasty of the Eastern Roman Empire.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/18/we-must-vote-leave-to-create-a-britain-fit-for-the-future/
The poison that has been introduced will not quickly disperse.
We live in a representative democracy. If there is unease about the result, either way, at the next GE parties are free to stand on a platform of leaving if we have not.
if there is still a functional Tory party it should not stand on a platform of another referendum
If that means a UKIP majority, so be it.
"People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
The EU's going to fall. It's a question of when. The longer it is, the more things will have integrated, and the worse the impact will be. Right now, it'd lead to economic problems and perhaps civil strife.
In a decade or two, we could be looking at small scale military action.
A decade or two after that...
A vote to Remain for fear of the probable short term pain is a vote to embrace the agony of later years. I suspect it'll happen in my lifetime.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
Don't see that policy lasting much longer than 24th June do you?
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Oh, I already have, haven't I?
Sounds a bit low to me.
"your mum's views are similar to mine"...
Margaret Thatcher holds the prize as the secretary of state who closed or merged the most grammar schools for a comprehensive alternative.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/education-the-end-of-the-grammar-school-1179844.html
As do frisky elves.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK
I will be happy with less of that.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
The tone of the debate is the issue not the debate itself. It has been filled with nasty vile attacks with people calling others nasty things like little Englanders, making offensive signs at people they disagree with (EG Bob Geldoff mocking fishermen).
If the debate were conducted by 8 year olds rather than 5 year olds the quality would be much better.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/744270819384246272
Power and money will continue to flow to Brussels. People will continue to be angered by rates of immigration and being called xenophobic or racist for wanting fewer to be allowed in.
Could be a purple patch for UKIP.
It's the opposite (but still wrong) of what the BBC business editor did when he asked Carney if he [Carney] could guarantee we wouldn't have a recession if we voted to Leave.
http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/the-blame-game.html
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
We are in trouble. And it's not democracy that's the problem.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.
Yougov-ITV have Leave 44:42 up
Which is Leave's lead slashed by 5%
Which is Remain +3 Leave -2
Unsure of the fieldwork dates
Expectations. It also breeds confidence.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I really hate Cristiano Ronaldo. Come on the Hungarians.