First, what does a synthetic clearing house mean? Second, it regulates us when we trade european stocks.
Prime brokerages, they will self clear securities trades.
And what? Stock trades are bread and butter. It's derivatives trading that matters, I struggle to see how the City would continue to come under EU regulations, then again I'm not in regulations, yet the experts in our reports specifically outlined how being outside of EU regulations for derivatives would be a net gain for the City, again a reason why the Hedge funds back Leave.
What is the proportion of funds under management for hedge funds and institutional asset managers?
What do you mean "stock trades are bread and butter"?
There's no money in trading cash equities.
Still not sure what that means
Europe trading = approx EUR70bn/day.
Margins are a fraction of a penny in some cases (surprised the euro denominated cash equity trading volumes numbers are that high but thats not a number I track)
given the high fixed cost of a cash equity desk and the trend towards electronic trading it's brutally competitive and chronically unprofitable unless you are really big in a specific product.
A lot of it still happens though. Most people's pensions are in equities.
Democracy is a bad idea? We can have BOTH direct and representative democracy. Very many of the arguments against one form often apply to the other.
We can have direct democracy. Our experience of it is division, hatred and violence, with no resolution of the question.
I will be happy with less of that.
Actually it isn't any worse than the hatred of the left to anything that isn't left. Witness for example the threats of violence and rape directed at Conservative party conference delegates as well as taunts, spitting etc and police telling delegates they can't wear their conference ID outside as that would cause a disturbance. Or indeed momentum rocking up outside Stella Creasy's house...
You may think this is bad, but it is actually normal in a lot of places. It may change but I doubt it as the left never admit that they are in fact a nasty bunch of fascist scum.
@tag_freeman: Double-page editorial in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: "For a safer, freer, more prosperous & even greater Britain, we urge you to vote Remain"
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
- W. L. S. Churchill in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.
It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competition
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
Or put it this way, I think it is considerably more likely we will eventually leave rather than the EU will reform to an extent that would make us content.
I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)
Unless we join the eurozone we will never be in the Superstate and the only chance of that is a big Remain win, even on tonight's poll probably gone now as a possibility
So we will continue to sit on the margins with our power and sovereignty seeping away as the Eurozone dominates the EU, subject to all the rules but with no control over them. It is a bleak vision you paint of our future.
It is what I always felt would happen though
And yet you want to remain? The pain you are going to inflict on this country is going to be far worse than anything you might imagine from Leaving now.
@tag_freeman: Double-page editorial in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: "For a safer, freer, more prosperous & even greater Britain, we urge you to vote Remain"
Many of the readership must be fuming.
No really a surprise. The MoS has been pro-REMAIN all through the campaign.
The Daily Mail will come out for LEAVE of course...
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
- W. L. S. Churchill in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competition
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
You can't if remain wins unless you vote UKIP to get into power,the 3 other main parties want mass immigration.
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.
It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.
Mr. Gin, Rome's everlasting success was once deemed inevitable.
The EU's going to fall. It's a question of when. The longer it is, the more things will have integrated, and the worse the impact will be. Right now, it'd lead to economic problems and perhaps civil strife.
In a decade or two, we could be looking at small scale military action.
A decade or two after that...
A vote to Remain for fear of the probable short term pain is a vote to embrace the agony of later years. I suspect it'll happen in my lifetime.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!
As hopefully a semi humorous Saturday night post given we all need it.....
On Thursday and Friday my Mrs was really distraught around the Jo Cox murder as I suspect most people were and was questioning whether she would/could vote leave as it felt somehow wrong.
Tonight her comment to me was that if she got even a hint that I was voting remain I would be in the spare bedroom for a while! This doesn't mean she is any less upset about Jo just that she has reverted back to where she was previously!.
My point is people's views move on ever more rapidly in this day and age and not sure I would conclude anything based on polling on Friday, Saturday or indeed Sunday given the traumatic nature of the horrible event on Thursday.
I am for leave so that's ok with her although for the reasons many have articulated since I work in the city I have in passing told my boss I am voting remain to keep him off my back.
If people want a good example of waste of space EU regulation try Solvency 2 for Insurers. It has cost the UK insurance industry £5bn and we still don't have European wide consistency as everyone still interprets it their own way. Although at least I don't have all the regulations the securities lending guys have to deal with
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anyway
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.
It says more about the current state of mind in the West rather than the age-old virtues of democracy.
We are in trouble. And it's not democracy that's the problem.
It's not as, absent the murder, the result was going to be decided on a sober and detailed assessment of the respective merits of the case.
Well exactly. People wailing that this might, might be a deciding factor, are being rather selective at when to be upset at how people determine their votes.
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Jo Cox went to one in the late eighties and nineties so there are still a few around
I went to a grammar school and my six form Latin class mate was Graham Brady- he was a year older than me, but they combined classes since there was only 3 of us...
Yes grammars offered/offer subjects normally confined to private schools
I tell you- I can already feel the sore loser narrative welling up. There is a referendum next week. If remain wins, they have won. Simple as- they have won because more people voted for it.
This will be the last referendum in the UK of any significance for a generation. No major party will touch it. If people want out, they will have to vote UKIP, or hope that they can take control of the leadership of the Tory party.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.
Offering a referendum on our membership on the EU?
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competition
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"
The latter perhaps, I can't see the former
I'm a Northerner, I work, I have class.
Ergo, I'm a working class northerner
"But it's not who you are underneath. It's what you do that defines you!" - Rachel Dawes and Batman in "Batman Begins" (2005).
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
You can't if remain wins unless you vote UKIP to get into power,the 3 other main parties want mass immigration.
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.
Private schools offer bursaries and scholarships but they will always mainly be to only a minority of pupils
My point is people's views move on ever more rapidly in this day and age and not sure I would conclude anything based on polling on Friday, Saturday or indeed Sunday given the traumatic nature of the horrible event on Thursday.
Jo Cox's murder is closer to home, but it struck me today how little the Pulse nightclub has featured in the news over the last few days, and that wasn't even a week ago. Now obviously the murder of Cox has dominated the news here, but stories related to Pulse have really dried up even taking that into account. The worst shooting in recent US history and it barely got 5 days of news coverage. EgyptAir 804, which was only a month ago, hasn't been getting much interest either, with only some cursory reporting of the recent locating. News moves on fast if there aren't any "exciting" developments.
I tell you- I can already feel the sore loser narrative welling up.
That was welling up two years ago when people declared a Cameron referendum, if it were ever offered, would not be worth it as it would be rigged (I'm sure many now would say that was prescient).
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.
Offering a referendum on our membership on the EU?
No. Continuing with their Europhile ways. Basically they become part of the problem that needs to be removed before we get free.
Of course this assumes we vote Remain on Thursday.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in? And are you suggesting that Labour didn't do anything to that end between 1997 and 2010?
The world has changed a great deal since 1983.
I doubt that in the event of a Remain, the Conservatives will advocate Leave in 2020 for the same reason that the SNP are wary of SIndyRef2, but that is the direction of travel at the moment and is likely to remain so for some years yet.
The honest answer is, why would you care? Different countries round the World have different numbers of people in them.
I can't honestly say I find living in the UK now any different than I did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, but again, I am not competing with low cost labour for my job, and I don't have to queue behind immigrants at A&E if I have a cough.
If the population increases (and again, immigration is tied to economic growth; it was zero in 2008) then we need more schools'n'hospitals, but hey, we do have more schools'n'hospitals than we did in the past.
We need more houses. I have never seen more building sites round me than I see now. Thousands of new houses.
There is a theoretical limit to the number of people who could fit on an island, but I don't see any reason why that number is magically 65 million and not 1 more. YMMV
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.
On the subject of better trade deals for developing countries, I am all in favour on both moral and practical grounds.
In terms if international matters there is in fact much I support of Jo Cox's work. I disagree on the issue of the EU and I also disagree with people turning up simply to counter demonstrate at someone else's political rally.
Her murder is a tragedy, there is no doubt. It should however not move the vote and would be a shame if it did. There are nasty and nice people on both sides of this referendum.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in? And are you suggesting that Labour didn't do anything to that end between 1997 and 2010?
The world has changed a great deal since 1983.
I doubt that in the event of a Remain, the Conservatives will advocate Leave in 2020 for the same reason that the SNP are wary of SIndyRef2, but that is the direction of travel at the moment and is likely to remain so for some years yet.
Yep. They signed us back into most of the EU Police and Criminal Justice Measures.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.
Grammar schools? Or schools with expectations? Schools that remove difficult children perhaps that then get the proper education elsewhere? Who knows. What we have now seems somewhat imperfect.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.
If you're like me and know very little about wine, you'll do a lot worse than a £10-£15 of Spanish red. Generally good standard and some intetesting variety between different areas. This evening I started with a Costers del Segre from my old stomping ground in Catalonia. Have now moved on to a Chivite from Navarra. All very tasty. I should have done this last night.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Wow. I know we were talking about Murdoch hedging his bets but that is actually a surprise for me.I knew there was a split between the Mail and MoS because of vendettas but am surprised that there is a split between the Times and Sunday Times.
Incidentally, can anyone think of a time so much hate, venom, energy and dishonesty was spilled over something so irrelevant as whether we leave the EU in two years or stay until it collapses in four years?
Edward Gibbons' caricature of the fall of the Roman Empire was at least a work of fiction. This is for real!
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anyway
Aggreed, if it hadn't been this murder they would have found another moral reason to justify there decision. There just silly people socks and sandals brigade. Although I wouldn't say all undecided are these tossers. Many wont vote at all. And some will go leave.
This is more related to the previous thread, but there should still be plenty of scope for the UK to change their general approach to the EU which has been a major contributory factor in what has happened in the EU over the last 25 years. Whatever stuff one wants to believe about the "unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels, there is ample evidence that the UK can find natural allies over a whole host of issues (including immigration) amongst the leadership of other EU members.
Except we barely even try because we are so obsessed with the idea that the whole thing is an anti British conspiracy, and for domestic political consumption it is easier to remain in glorious (yet defeated) isolation than actually put in the hard yards to make the whole thing work for us and in line with our national interests.
A remain vote would represent one final opportunity to actually change that approach (accepting it is more difficult with the Euro/Schengen etc) but I don't believe impossible. It is probable that our political system doesn't make things easy because our more adversarial politics than most of the rest of the EU makes it harder to advocate a clear and consistent (over time) "UK position" on the major issues affecting Europe with the constant suspicion that the priorities swing 180 degrees as left and right wing parties are in the ascendant (one doesn't get the impression that this is such an issue in other countries - most manage to maintain better consistency in external dealings, whatever their domestic differences).
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.
Actually if I go several people will lose their jobs also
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!
This is more related to the previous thread, but there should still be plenty of scope for the UK to change their general approach to the EU which has been a major contributory factor in what has happened in the EU over the last 25 years. Whatever stuff one wants to believe about the "unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels, there is ample evidence that the UK can find natural allies over a whole host of issues (including immigration) amongst the leadership of other EU members.
Except we barely even try because we are so obsessed with the idea that the whole thing is an anti British conspiracy, and for domestic political consumption it is easier to remain in glorious (yet defeated) isolation than actually put in the hard yards to make the whole thing work for us and in line with our national interests.
A remain vote would represent one final opportunity to actually change that approach (accepting it is more difficult with the Euro/Schengen etc) but I don't believe impossible. It is probable that our political system doesn't make things easy because our more adversarial politics than most of the rest of the EU makes it harder to advocate a clear and consistent (over time) "UK position" on the major issues affecting Europe with the constant suspicion that the priorities swing 180 degrees as left and right wing parties are in the ascendant (one doesn't get the impression that this is such an issue in other countries - most manage to maintain better consistency in external dealings, whatever their domestic differences).
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.
I have never read it, despite having a mini-library of Graham Hancock's other works.
If you're like me and know very little about wine, you'll do a lot worse than a £10-£15 of Spanish red. Generally good standard and some intetesting variety between different areas. This evening I started with a Costers del Segre from my old stomping ground in Catalonia. Have now moved on to a Chivite from Navarra. All very tasty. I should have done this last night.
If you're following twitter you'll notice OGH is having a nice meal in chez Boris, the best restaurant in Montpellier.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!
Re Westminster VI, I am not at all surprised that Labour is sub 30% in the context of its stance on the referendum vote.
Yet Labour have cut the Tories lead from 7% at the general election to 5% now as the Tories have lost even more voters to UKIP than Labour
It's midterm, duh.
Midterm will not arrive until start of 2017. Comres Online regularly produces the biggest Tory leads . Mori put it at 1% this week . Tooting saw a much better Labour result than implied by any of the polls.
Comments
You may think this is bad, but it is actually normal in a lot of places. It may change but I doubt it as the left never admit that they are in fact a nasty bunch of fascist scum.
- W. L. S. Churchill in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
Any swing seems to be from other factors.
Or put it this way, I think it is considerably more likely we will eventually leave rather than the EU will reform to an extent that would make us content.
The Daily Mail will come out for LEAVE of course...
Ergo, I'm a working class northerner
On Thursday and Friday my Mrs was really distraught around the Jo Cox murder as I suspect most people were and was questioning whether she would/could vote leave as it felt somehow wrong.
Tonight her comment to me was that if she got even a hint that I was voting remain I would be in the spare bedroom for a while! This doesn't mean she is any less upset about Jo just that she has reverted back to where she was previously!.
My point is people's views move on ever more rapidly in this day and age and not sure I would conclude anything based on polling on Friday, Saturday or indeed Sunday given the traumatic nature of the horrible event on Thursday.
I am for leave so that's ok with her although for the reasons many have articulated since I work in the city I have in passing told my boss I am voting remain to keep him off my back.
If people want a good example of waste of space EU regulation try Solvency 2 for Insurers. It has cost the UK insurance industry £5bn and we still don't have European wide consistency as everyone still interprets it their own way. Although at least I don't have all the regulations the securities lending guys have to deal with
This will be the last referendum in the UK of any significance for a generation. No major party will touch it. If people want out, they will have to vote UKIP, or hope that they can take control of the leadership of the Tory party.
- Rachel Dawes and Batman in "Batman Begins" (2005).
Of course this assumes we vote Remain on Thursday.
The world has changed a great deal since 1983.
I doubt that in the event of a Remain, the Conservatives will advocate Leave in 2020 for the same reason that the SNP are wary of SIndyRef2, but that is the direction of travel at the moment and is likely to remain so for some years yet.
The honest answer is, why would you care? Different countries round the World have different numbers of people in them.
I can't honestly say I find living in the UK now any different than I did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, but again, I am not competing with low cost labour for my job, and I don't have to queue behind immigrants at A&E if I have a cough.
If the population increases (and again, immigration is tied to economic growth; it was zero in 2008) then we need more schools'n'hospitals, but hey, we do have more schools'n'hospitals than we did in the past.
We need more houses. I have never seen more building sites round me than I see now. Thousands of new houses.
There is a theoretical limit to the number of people who could fit on an island, but I don't see any reason why that number is magically 65 million and not 1 more. YMMV
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
On the subject of better trade deals for developing countries, I am all in favour on both moral and practical grounds.
In terms if international matters there is in fact much I support of Jo Cox's work. I disagree on the issue of the EU and I also disagree with people turning up simply to counter demonstrate at someone else's political rally.
Her murder is a tragedy, there is no doubt. It should however not move the vote and would be a shame if it did. There are nasty and nice people on both sides of this referendum.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday
Edward Gibbons' caricature of the fall of the Roman Empire was at least a work of fiction. This is for real!
Although I wouldn't say all undecided are these tossers. Many wont vote at all. And some will go leave.
So no change in tone from PM. Truce cancelled with personal attack on BoGo. What is it with No10 and car analogies? https://t.co/yszjTXLMfq
Except we barely even try because we are so obsessed with the idea that the whole thing is an anti British conspiracy, and for domestic political consumption it is easier to remain in glorious (yet defeated) isolation than actually put in the hard yards to make the whole thing work for us and in line with our national interests.
A remain vote would represent one final opportunity to actually change that approach (accepting it is more difficult with the Euro/Schengen etc) but I don't believe impossible. It is probable that our political system doesn't make things easy because our more adversarial politics than most of the rest of the EU makes it harder to advocate a clear and consistent (over time) "UK position" on the major issues affecting Europe with the constant suspicion that the priorities swing 180 degrees as left and right wing parties are in the ascendant (one doesn't get the impression that this is such an issue in other countries - most manage to maintain better consistency in external dealings, whatever their domestic differences).
If you measuring device is in error by 5 per cent (the Sindy), then you cannot detect 4 per cent swings.