Re Westminster VI, I am not at all surprised that Labour is sub 30% in the context of its stance on the referendum vote.
Yet Labour have cut the Tories lead from 7% at the general election to 5% now as the Tories have lost even more voters to UKIP than Labour
It's midterm, duh.
Midterm will not arrive until start of 2017. Comres Online regularly produces the biggest Tory leads . Mori put it at 1% this week . Tooting saw a much better Labour result than implied by any of the polls.
It's midterm for Cameron - if Remain win he'll go in 2017 I bet.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goes
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anyway
Aggreed, if it hadn't been this murder they would have found another moral reason to justify there decision. There just silly people socks and sandals brigade. Although I wouldn't say all undecided are these tossers. Many wont vote at all. And some will go leave.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
I don't know the answer to your question. I need to point out that voting LEAVE will not make a difference because altho they have promised immigration controls they have conspicuously not promised immigration limits. But that answer doesn't make your situation better, it makes it worse. So I don't have an answer for you, for which I apologise.
I notice Ladbrokes have broken ranks by offering 3.0 for LEAVE, whereas the other bookies are averaging 2.75. Perhaps Mr. Shaddick is simply nimbler on his feet.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Don't people think that both the Sunday Times and MoS probably commissioned about 3 separate polls and have both run the one most favourable to their editorial decision on the referendum?
I do like the idea that different papers have different opinions and are arguing from different perspectives.
I would, however prefer it if papers reported a little more critically (as in examine statements with care and not just repeat them and counter claims) and let people decide.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish Labour
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
It should have been a doddle for him to win if he'd actually gained any reform - or if, having failed to do so, he'd recognised the fact and come out for Leave.
As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
Go and move to Scotland.
A good solution.
If that is the solution you are offering to millions like me I suggest you get your hard hats because this is going to get very nasty
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.
Parents HATE grammar schools. That's why there's no rush to bring them back. Think about it. Chloe gets into grammar school. Her parents are ecstatic. Sam, Will and Emma don't. Their parents are not pleased at the rejection and that their children get a second class education. The setup means there are more second class students than first class ones. Which is a problem when those parents vote.
You're talking to a guy who went to a grammar, and whose brother didn't. There was no issue with my parents. They accepted that he'd failed the 11+, and 3 years later I passed mine. Parents don't hate grammars, the only people I've met who do are people who dislike them for ideological reasons. They usually send their own kids to Dulwich or some other public school, mind....
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
Some people might take the view that a rigged vote, rigged ineptly, is possibly not a vote that has been rigged...
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish Labour
Who know's what circumstances they will engineer to get us into the Euro in due course.
You are judging things as they are now... But "events dear boy, events" have a big impact.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....
Would be obliteration for the establishment like Scottish Labour
Who know's what circumstances they will engineer to get us into the Euro in due course.
You are judging things as they are now... But "events dear boy, events" have a big impact.
There will be no circumstances the public ever accept the euro, if the establishment try UKIP will win a landslide on an SNP scale!
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.
You sound like a Corbynista.
Where is the link to those five other deal-related documents?
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.
I have never read it, despite having a mini-library of Graham Hancock's other works.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Have you tried buying a dehumidifier and/ or air purifier for your home. I have suffered from asthma for many years, and since using these I am completely off my meds.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
Even though he is using marked cards, he has played his hand very badly.
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
Some people might take the view that a rigged vote, rigged ineptly, is possibly not a vote that has been rigged...
If you are applying the adverb "ineptly" to Cameron, then we are in agreement.
I am not a Tory, but if I were, I might be very angry at what he has done to the party by his ineptitude.
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
I don't know the answer to your question. I need to point out that voting LEAVE will not make a difference because altho they have promised immigration controls they have conspicuously not promised immigration limits. But that answer doesn't make your situation better, it makes it worse. So I don't have an answer for you, for which I apologise.
Perhaps move to Taranto as per his moniker?
The reality is that of the projected 4 million population increase over the next 15 years, 2 million comes from natural increase in the birthrate, of the other 2 million half arises from non-EU immigration. The difference between Leave and Remain is just 25% of that increase or 1 million people in 15 years - assuming that there is no further EU immigration at all. In reality some of those EU migrants will be needed, including my Greek doctors and Portuguese nurses.
The difference between Remain and Leave on immigration becomes margin of error. It is worth noting that the majority of the population change is in the over 75's, the population in the younger age groups remains stable, indicating very little additional competition for jobs or school places.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.
Cork-lined room to write your magnum opus?
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.
It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.
Plenty of people on here post anecdotes.
There's nothing wrong with an anecdote per se but a Leave voter who had already voted deciding - through whatever process - that she was now 'even more firmly' leave doesn't really tell us anything.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.
It's amazing how many Leavers seem to simultaneously hold the view that this referendum should have been a doddle for Cameron to win, whilst also believing that he's rigged it to the brink of defeat.
He tried to rig it. Its just he is bollocks at that just like so much else he does.
You sound like a Corbynista.
Where is the link to those five other deal-related documents?
You might like to look at Annex II Article 1 which outlines the procedure to be followed if a non Eurozone member objects to any new legislative acts agreed by the rest of the Council. You will note that there is no means for a non Eurozone member to prevent that legislation passing and the last paragraph
"While taking due account of the possible urgency of the matter and based on the reasons for opposing as indicated under paragraph 1, a request for a discussion in the European Council on the issue, before it returns to the Council for decision, may constitute such an initiative. Any such referral is without prejudice to the normal operation of the legislative procedure of the Union and cannot result in a situation which would amount to allowing a Member State a veto. "
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.
The definition of 'reformed' seems to have acquired a new meaning of 'changed in the way I want', while 'unreformed' means 'changed in the way I don't want'.
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...
'They' are not. If it happens, it will be the public.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.
The definition of 'reformed' seems to have acquired a new meaning of 'changed in the way I want', while 'unreformed' means 'changed in the way I don't want'.
I am surprised the ways the polls are swinging about. Is it that peeps are genuinely changing their mind from day to today. Unlikely in my mind. Or is it that the pollsters don't know there arse from their elbows. And so desperate not to be found as wrong as at the 2015 election they are trimming and tacking to keep as close to the consensus as possible.
Comments
The trend is your friend, etc... REMAIN are back in the driving seat. It's there's to lose now, IMO.
Always like a cynical conspiracy theory...
I would, however prefer it if papers reported a little more critically (as in examine statements with care and not just repeat them and counter claims) and let people decide.
Instead, he decided to rig it.
Where does this leave SeanT as regards his bet with OGH?
because this is going to get very nasty
I think whatever happens (Remain or Leave), he will go soon and leave the smouldering wreck of the Tory party behind.
Hope you have a fantastic time away and enjoy everything you possibly can.
You are judging things as they are now... But "events dear boy, events" have a big impact.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Where is the link to those five other deal-related documents?
I am not a Tory, but if I were, I might be very angry at what he has done to the party by his ineptitude.
The reality is that of the projected 4 million population increase over the next 15 years, 2 million comes from natural increase in the birthrate, of the other 2 million half arises from non-EU immigration. The difference between Leave and Remain is just 25% of that increase or 1 million people in 15 years - assuming that there is no further EU immigration at all. In reality some of those EU migrants will be needed, including my Greek doctors and Portuguese nurses.
The difference between Remain and Leave on immigration becomes margin of error. It is worth noting that the majority of the population change is in the over 75's, the population in the younger age groups remains stable, indicating very little additional competition for jobs or school places.
There is no 'lock', as this process is proving.
It's not 'entirely unreformed', though the reforms are minimal, I'll grant you.
If it is 'unreformed', then that still wouldn't be 'further', never mind 'faster'.
And any move to a superstate will need treaty change, which would need to be approved by the government and, under current legislation, the public.
But apart from that, spot on.
The main conclusions plus the annexes.
You might like to look at Annex II Article 1 which outlines the procedure to be followed if a non Eurozone member objects to any new legislative acts agreed by the rest of the Council. You will note that there is no means for a non Eurozone member to prevent that legislation passing and the last paragraph
"While taking due account of the possible urgency of the matter and based on the reasons for opposing as indicated under paragraph 1, a request for a discussion in the European Council on the issue, before it returns to the Council for decision, may constitute such an initiative. Any such referral is without prejudice to the normal operation of the legislative procedure of the Union and cannot result in a situation which would amount to allowing a Member State a veto. "
Or is it that the pollsters don't know there arse from their elbows. And so desperate not to be found as wrong as at the 2015 election they are trimming and tacking to keep as close to the consensus as possible.