politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ICM polls bring fresh pain for Remain
Comments
-
Shadsy on Sky News. He says more people are betting on leave - but the stakes are much lower for leave.0
-
Will you be pleased if it works out well?rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.0 -
The numbers are very believable. Leafleting here is like 1.5 roads per person.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I still cant get over that there are over 700 volunteers in Newham campaining and leafleting for leave in Newham.
Even if its half that it is astonishing.
This is what elrctions in the 50s and 60s must have been like when party memberships wrere seven figures.
So much for modern apathy of the people. It wasnt apathy, it was abstension owing to the parties losing touch with the people0 -
And with McGuiness and the boys supporting remain catholic leavers will play their cards close to the chest until they are in the polling boothRobD said:
"Northern Ireland voters are overwhelmingly in favour of the UK remaining in the European Union, but Protestants are far more divided than Catholics on the issue."logical_song said:
"Overall, none of the groups based on religion, gender, social background or geographical location were in favour of Brexit."TCPoliticalBetting said:
I do not think that NI will add much more than 0.6% to REMAIN. Main unionist party is for LEAVE. So a 1% swing is the maximum.RoyalBlue said:Somebody earlier did mention that Northern Ireland wasn't polled. Sorry to rain on the parade, but that will cause a net 1% swing to Remain. How many expats will vote?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-northern-ireland-says-no-to-brexit-34747509.html
Talk about misleading subtitle. They never asked if they were in favour of remaining/leaving, they asked if they thought it would make the UK weaker.0 -
Cameron's biggest tactical mistake was assuming that a Blairite Labour party would be leading the Remain campaign and not readjusting the timing of the vote once Corbyn took over. He should have postponed until 2018 at least.SouthamObserver said:
Of course. But Cameron made the referendum call having actively talked down the EU and been entirely negative about immigration. He then campaigned to stay in on the basis that the EU was (is) vital to the UK's interests. He revealed himself to be a complete con artist. No wonder he has lost so much trust.FrankBooth said:
Southam, whilst I agree on Cameron, I have to say it was slightly strange to hear Brown going on about all the benefits of EU membership given his reputation for surliness and disinterest at EU meetings. And what of Blair? He started off with all the heart of Europe guff but then lost interest when he found the White House far more to his tastes. Almost no UK politician has bothered trying to sell the EU for a generation and it shows.SouthamObserver said:Leave's to lose now. It's the markets or bust for Remain. They have fought an abysmal campaign, though Leave's has been little better. The turning point - as I said a the time - was the release of the immigration stats a couple of weeks back. Cameron hoisted by his own petard (or whatever the phrase is). In retrospect he has spent the last eight years or so sowing the ground for this defeat and his consignment to history. Over to Boris.
0 -
It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.0
-
"Public sentiment on the ground is evenly divided. In a nationwide survey my firm completed June 8, Leave had 49% of the vote, Remain 47%, and only a handful of voters (4%) remain truly, totally undecided. Anybody who tells you today that they can predict the final outcome is either fooling or fibbing. It is truly too close to call"
http://time.com/4364697/brexit-frank-luntz-poll/0 -
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.0 -
What could possibly go wrong there ? Can't believe he would strike completely the wrong note and piss the voters off all over again.TCPoliticalBetting said:Are we 3 days away from a Juncker intervention?
0 -
It's actually worse than that. We allow them to grow things we cannot but we do not allow them to add value for it seems, they must know their place. Both disgustingly immoral, anti capitalist and counter productive all at the same time. The internationalist left and the right should be out campaigning for free fair trade to Africa but instead we chuck them scraps.Cookie said:
But the poorer countries in Europe are locked in sclerosis. Our membership doesn't appear to be doing them any good either.foxinsoxuk said:
It is a lie, but even after the rebate and net spend still a large amout of money. Truth no longer matters once the lie is established. In the post-modern world there is no absolute truth, just opinions that even when illinformed are held to be of equal value.SeanT said:
It's not a blatant lie. It's what we give to them then they give us a chunk back - but they tell us how to spend it. It is one valid way of expressing our contribution, along with others.foxinsoxuk said:
It is a blatent lie and sounds like a lot of money. It is a meme (with immigration) that strikes a chord.MaxPB said:
Why do you think remain are so incensed by the £350m figure?foxinsoxuk said:Anecdata:
Overheard conversation in waiting room at work. Several retired old fellows moaning about the money going to the EU rather than NHS.
Overheard conversation between 3 nurses, one white British, one Indian and one Filipino (all naturalised so eligible to vote). All undecided, but leaning Leave over the subject of immigration.
I think both these memes are hollow, but they are working.
This was another major error by REMAIN. By continuously bitching about this figure they simply made everyone look at the figure and gasp in horror. £350m a week, £250m a week - these ALL seem like huge numbers to most voters.
We are one of the wealthier countries in Europe and I am reasonably happy about subsidising the poorer areas of Europe to develop, just as a higher rate taxpayer I expect to subsidise poorer members of society. No one makes that argument though.
The altruistic argument is noble, but just because an agreement is bad for us doesn't mean it's necessarily good for someone else - or at least not for the someone else that we might intend.
Meanwhile, we're stopping impoverished African farmers from trading with us.0 -
Only two groups bother me at all - gangsta blacks, and aggressive Muslims who make it plain that I'm a slut in their eyes.John_M said:
Doesn't matter. Who the fuck is frightened of a Hindu? I wrote the other day about hating -phobic as a suffix, but a lot of people are clearly scared of Muslims, completely disproportionately to the risks they pose.John_N4 said:
Most immigrants nowadays are Christian or Hindu.AlastairMeeks said:@John_M That's the mandate that Leave is seeking: an anti-immigration, pull-up-the-drawbridge, scared about Muslims mandate.
If you want that, vote for it. But don't fool yourself that voting Leave means anything else.
A few years ago on here I was accused of being a racist [inc by someone who's written a lot of articles] for saying I felt threatened on Whitechapel tube station. And in Luton for wearing a sleeveless frock. I'm very glad that it's no longer such a taboo to say so.
The whole Leave vote backlash is a damning indictment of the suppression of legitimate concerns.0 -
I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/0 -
I'd like to think that everyone voting Conservative at the last GE didn't do so on the basis Alex Salmond was a pickpocket - Sir Lynton's efforts in London weren't exactly cricket either.AlastairMeeks said:@Cookie Those are the official Vote Leave posters. That's what they want you to vote on.
I'm sure this campaign will be orphaned like Zac's was should it go wrong as it is appearing to do so now though...0 -
The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?0
-
Unless leave wins 65/35 the government won't be able to completely ignore the 45-49% of people that have voted to stay and I'm sure Boris will be willing to make the compromise.TOPPING said:As mentioned to @MaxPB I just don't think it credible for the government of whichever stripe not to incorporate the VLTC manifesto into its future EU policy.
0 -
Always thought Osborne would see the advantage of really putting the heft of government behind business - without the EU blocking. He has put some money into the RR mini nuclear power stations, but the money he can work with just puts everything out of reach. Why do we have to go cap in hand to France to finance a power station?0
-
I can see the Suns headline nowMarqueeMark said:
Should be worth another 5% swing.LucyJones said:SeanT said:
Yes, possibly right.SouthamObserver said:
Disagree. No-one would believe Cameron now. He has sown the seeds of his own destruction and there is nothing he can do about it. His only hope is that the markets react very badly and that spooks enough people for Remain to scrape over the line. Failing that, it's curtains and over to Boris.SeanT said:The Labour anecdata is arguably more important than the polls. For Labour figures to say this about migration (migration!) must mean they are absolutely panicked.
REMAIN is losing. And the Labour dudes are right. Some kind of vow is needed. Cameron has to go UDI - say we need control on migration, in the next two years, or we leave.
Put a gun to the heads of the other EU states. See who blinks.
Would it work? No idea. But if Dave really believes half the crap he's spouted about Apocalypse Impending, he needs to do it, or something similar
OTOH it would work coming from the EU itself, maybe?
Dunno.
But surely REMAIN has to try something, and something special, if they REALLY believe that OUT means the End of the Known World. If they just sit back and calmly await defeat, it means that they were wholly and knowingly exaggerating all along, AKA lying.
I think Juncker has been asked to keep quiet about the UK referendum with the caveat that he may be allowed to speak during the last week of the campaign if things are looking bad for Remain.
Something tells me we might be hearing from him very soon.
"Fuck off, Juncker, we're voting Leave"
There has been a strange creaking sound these past weeks, as thousands of Eurocrats walk around on eggshells. They are at breaking point.
If Remain squeak this and then there's a barrage of saved-up announcements that could have shown Brussels in its true light, there'll be hell to pay.... Leave, dishonest? You ain't seen nothing till you've seen Remain.
" stick it up you Juncker"0 -
Obviously because he thought he'd win at a canter. Or, that he was, at best, entering Coalition 2.0 when he could bin the commitment at the behest of the Libdems.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
0 -
@Pulpstar I do not see how a Leave vote could be interpreted as anything other than a demand that the government crack down on immigration as its highest negotiating priority, given how the campaign has been conducted.0
-
We should all keep our eyes peeled for an update from this man:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678207/Pro-European-Union-Lord-Hayward-Vote-Leave-winning-Brexit-savage-David-Cameron
I saw his Telegraph article, but not the Express article. I can't think that anything in the past 5 days will have changed his considered opinion.0 -
Subsidising the poorer areas of europe is not working.foxinsoxuk said:
It is a lie, but even after the rebate and net spend still a large amout of money. Truth no longer matters once the lie is established. In the post-modern world there is no absolute truth, just opinions that even when illinformed are held to be of equal value.SeanT said:
It's not a blatant lie. It's what we give to them then they give us a chunk back - but they tell us how to spend it. It is one valid way of expressing our contribution, along with others.foxinsoxuk said:
It is a blatent lie and sounds like a lot of money. It is a meme (with immigration) that strikes a chord.MaxPB said:
Why do you think remain are so incensed by the £350m figure?foxinsoxuk said:Anecdata:
Overheard conversation in waiting room at work. Several retired old fellows moaning about the money going to the EU rather than NHS.
Overheard conversation between 3 nurses, one white British, one Indian and one Filipino (all naturalised so eligible to vote). All undecided, but leaning Leave over the subject of immigration.
I think both these memes are hollow, but they are working.
This was another major error by REMAIN. By continuously bitching about this figure they simply made everyone look at the figure and gasp in horror. £350m a week, £250m a week - these ALL seem like huge numbers to most voters.
We are one of the wealthier countries in Europe and I am reasonably happy about subsidising the poorer areas of Europe to develop, just as a higher rate taxpayer I expect to subsidise poorer members of society. No one makes that argument though.
If it was migration would not be so high.
All that money finds it's way to the select few.
In the soviet bloc countries the rich are getting richer.
Sound familiar?0 -
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.0 -
There may be more clout in trade negotiations but it will be AD3000 before they get agreement.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.
You are down by 1!0 -
How does that gel with recent devolution?williamglenn said:
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
Has the gap between the government and the masses ever been greater? I can't think at any point over my lifetime (40 years and counting) that it's been as wide as the chasm it is right now.AlastairMeeks said:@Pulpstar I do not see how a Leave vote could be interpreted as anything other than a demand that the government crack down on immigration as its highest negotiating priority, given how the campaign has been conducted.
0 -
Ed Balls: "We need to press Europe to restore proper borders and put new controls on economic migration."0
-
Bollocks. Markets are up and down like a lady of ill reputes draws.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
0 -
I encourage PBers of all persuasions to try!weejonnie said:
There may be more clout in trade negotiations but it will be AD3000 before they get agreement.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.
You are down by 1!
And yes, as admitted at the end! Was running out of ideas
0 -
Forex is a 24 hour a day market. If the pound was going to take a hammering because of this poll, that hammering would have occurred at about 16:59-17:01 this afternoon.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
0 -
Whats this 7pm labour announcement then?0
-
It not about fear its about cultural dislocation. People living in non-metropolitan UK, especially the elderly, don't feel comfortable in their own towns, they don't like seeing minarets, they aren't comfortable hearing calls from the Muezzin, they don't like seeing people in veils, but its not all about muslims, they don't like looking down the street their grew up in and seeing a long line of "polski sklep" either. They don't hate anyone, or fear anyone particularly, they are probably perfectly pleasant to the nice couple running the local post office, they just dont feel like they know the place they grew up in.John_M said:
Doesn't matter. Who the fuck is frightened of a Hindu? I wrote the other day about hating -phobic as a suffix, but a lot of people are clearly scared of Muslims, completely disproportionately to the risks they pose.John_N4 said:
Most immigrants nowadays are Christian or Hindu.AlastairMeeks said:@John_M That's the mandate that Leave is seeking: an anti-immigration, pull-up-the-drawbridge, scared about Muslims mandate.
If you want that, vote for it. But don't fool yourself that voting Leave means anything else.0 -
As the conclusion would almost certainly be a federal UK with an English parliament and a weak central government, it should gel very nicely.RobD said:
How does that gel with recent devolution?williamglenn said:
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
No, I mean how does the view that Westminster is imperialist gel with devolution?williamglenn said:
As the conclusion would almost certainly be a federal UK with an English parliament and a weak central government, it should gel very nicely.RobD said:
How does that gel with recent devolution?williamglenn said:
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
Brexit may catalyse a recession. That's inarguable. However, there's a recession on the way, Brexit or no.BenedictWhite said:
Bollocks. Markets are up and down like a lady of ill reputes draws.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
The UK is an economic basket case in a number of ways - as is France and Italy.
The positive argument for Brexit is that it will allow the Eurozone to coalesce much faster than it otherwise would.0 -
If only the Tories hadn't campaigned in the south west Cameron would be sitting pretty. Funny game, politics.John_M said:
Obviously because he thought he'd win at a canter. Or, that he was, at best, entering Coalition 2.0 when he could bin the commitment at the behest of the Libdems.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
0 -
Yep, the Tories are turning right and will disappoint many on the final Brexit deal. There will be many cries of betrayal. But Corbyn is Corbyn, I'm afraid. He is unelectable. Another Labour leader - even McDonnell (who personally I could not vote for) - and you would have a point.williamglenn said:
That's wishful thinking on the Tory side.SouthamObserver said:
Sadly, Corbyn is the Tory get out of jail free card. This is a huge opportunity for Labour that the membership will undoubtedly squander.Stark_Dawning said:
Corbyn and Sturgeon are going to be the big winners out of all of this. Sturgeon will pounce immediately after Leave's victory, demanding another SindyRef and probably winning it. Corbyn will then have, in his eyes, a stranded England ripe for revolution. Brexit will have humiliated the Labour moderates too, leaving them redundant and the far-Left in charge of Labour for ever.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, Corbyn will have a great deal of responsibility too; not that he will give a flying fig. Don't think I'd blame the SNP, though. Scotland looks sure to vote Remain. The fact is that this is Cameron's campaign, just as it was his decision to buy off his right wing with the referendum promise in the first place. He spent eight years talking down the EU and making negative noises about immigration solely, it turns out, for electoral advantage. He has inflicted this defeat on himself and will be judged accordingly.fitalass said:
And Jeremy Corbyn has been a huge fan of the EU project for years, oh wait...SouthamObserver said:
Cameron sowed the seeds of his own destruction. You can't spend years talking in negative terms about the EU and immigration, and then expect the voting public to take you seriously when you change your mind completely and with no real explanation. History will judge him harshly, but perhaps not as harshly as the Leavers who take over from him.MarqueeMark said:Wintour? Hmmmm.... Labour blaming the Tories that Labour voters wouldn't, er, vote for the Tories. It requires some brass neck to pull that one off.
Twitter
Kenny Farquharson @KennyFarq 8h8 hours ago
SNP and Labour leaderships will be equally culpable if there's a Brexit vote in the 23rd.
The Tories are on the brink of a historic disaster. They've turned on the Cameron centrist project and will take over seems poised to immediately destroy any trust by lurching towards a deal that won't end free movement.
Corbyn couldn't wish for a better set of circumstances.
0 -
One is nonsense. CERN existed before the EU.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.
ESA membership includes Norway and Switzerland, which are not in the EU, but not Latvia or Lithuania, which are.
ESO membership includes Brazil, Switzerland, not in the EU, but does not include Ireland, Latvia, many others
Basically, like all clubs, you join CERN or ESO or ESA if you can afford the membership fees. They are nothing to do with the EU.0 -
Crikey.chestnut said:Ed Balls: "We need to press Europe to restore proper borders and put new controls on economic migration."
Why didn't anyone else think of that?
Oh they did. The EU said Foxtrot Oscar.0 -
Thank you for trying, but you've just demonstrated my point.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.0 -
hunchman
Which is to be fair what Salmond and the Scot Nats have been saying about the Remain campaign for weeks. He took part with Alan Johnstone on the only TV debate that Remain have actually won arguing a positive case FOR immigration and a positive case FOR peace and co-operation in Europe.0 -
Hoolahan bangs on in for my fantasy squad!!0
-
I see the BBC have discovered the word terrorist.0
-
A fair point, but the EU does fund a lot of science/tech stuff, which we are very good at getting, more than our fair share per capita. If I could edit my post I would put it in that light, rather than those memberships.YBarddCwsc said:
One is nonsense. CERN existed before the EU.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.
ESA membership includes Norway and Switzerland, which are not in the EU, but not Latvia or Lithuania, which are.
ESO membership includes Brazil, Switzerland, not in the EU, but does not include Ireland, Latvia, many others
Basically, like all clubs, you join CERN or ESO or ESA if you can afford the membership fees. Thy are nothing to do with the EU.0 -
Mr. Glenn, although we're on opposite sides in the referendum I agree completely with you that an English Parliament and far smaller Westminster/UK Government (Foreign, Defence, some Home and Treasury functions) would be a sensible, indeed obvious, step.0
-
I'm probably not the ideal candidate to try though....hunchman said:
Thank you for trying, but you've just demonstrated my point.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.0 -
Whoever used it will be in front of the big bosses tomorrow morning.tlg86 said:I see the BBC have discovered the word terrorist.
0 -
-
He's way off. I'd estimate Leave at a 70% chance...currently.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/0 -
And if it does so, blow up all the sooner.John_M said:
Brexit may catalyse a recession. That's inarguable. However, there's a recession on the way, Brexit or no.BenedictWhite said:
Bollocks. Markets are up and down like a lady of ill reputes draws.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
The UK is an economic basket case in a number of ways - as is France and Italy.
The positive argument for Brexit is that it will allow the Eurozone to coalesce much faster than it otherwise would.0 -
Without a federal structure, granting devolution to only some parts of the UK is akin to giving Home Rule to the dominions.RobD said:
No, I mean how does the view that Westminster is imperialist gel with devolution?williamglenn said:
As the conclusion would almost certainly be a federal UK with an English parliament and a weak central government, it should gel very nicely.RobD said:
How does that gel with recent devolution?williamglenn said:
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
Ed who...oh the Norwich city chairman...chestnut said:Ed Balls: "We need to press Europe to restore proper borders and put new controls on economic migration."
0 -
Most people don't like the sense of becoming a minority in the area they've lived in for years.Indigo said:
It not about fear its about cultural dislocation. People living in non-metropolitan UK, especially the elderly, don't feel comfortable in their own towns, they don't like seeing minarets, they aren't comfortable hearing calls from the Muezzin, they don't like seeing people in veils, but its not all about muslims, they don't like looking down the street their grew up in and seeing a long line of "polski sklep" either. They don't hate anyone, or fear anyone particularly, they are probably perfectly pleasant to the nice couple running the local post office, they just dont feel like they know the place they grew up in.John_M said:
Doesn't matter. Who the fuck is frightened of a Hindu? I wrote the other day about hating -phobic as a suffix, but a lot of people are clearly scared of Muslims, completely disproportionately to the risks they pose.John_N4 said:
Most immigrants nowadays are Christian or Hindu.AlastairMeeks said:@John_M That's the mandate that Leave is seeking: an anti-immigration, pull-up-the-drawbridge, scared about Muslims mandate.
If you want that, vote for it. But don't fool yourself that voting Leave means anything else.0 -
Don't forget that we can and would pay our way into Horizon 2020 which is open to non-EU countries.RobD said:
A fair point, but the EU does fund a lot of science/tech stuff, which we are very good at getting, more than our fair share per capita. If I could edit my post I would put it in that light, rather than those memberships.YBarddCwsc said:
One is nonsense. CERN existed before the EU.RobD said:
Let me try:hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
*Combined science budget gives more bang for buck (e.g. CERN/ESA/ESO)
*Common standards for trade within the single market
*Benefits relating to tourism/travel, the european medical card thing comes to mind
*More clout in trade negotiations given 500mil population
okay.. I got four.
ESA membership includes Norway and Switzerland, which are not in the EU, but not Latvia or Lithuania, which are.
ESO membership includes Brazil, Switzerland, not in the EU, but does not include Ireland, Latvia, many others
Basically, like all clubs, you join CERN or ESO or ESA if you can afford the membership fees. Thy are nothing to do with the EU.0 -
Now I get you: imperialist from the English perspective.williamglenn said:
Without a federal structure, granting devolution to only some parts of the UK is akin to giving Home Rule to the dominions.RobD said:
No, I mean how does the view that Westminster is imperialist gel with devolution?williamglenn said:
As the conclusion would almost certainly be a federal UK with an English parliament and a weak central government, it should gel very nicely.RobD said:
How does that gel with recent devolution?williamglenn said:
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the Scottish nationalists and Irish republicans have essentially the correct view that Westminster is an imperialist relic that isn't fit for purpose. We urgently need a constitutional convention with no sacred cows.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
0 -
Mr. 86, there's a change. I wonder if they'll use the T-word more often.
In reference to the gay nightclub shooting, I take it?0 -
splutter !RodCrosby said:
He's way off. I'd estimate Leave at a 70% chance...currently.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/
that's rather bullish Rod.0 -
If we get an independent England then the need for reform is zero.Jonathan said:It does increasingly look like we're going to have to get used to living in an independent England. Westminster reform is urgent.
We need reform to deal with issues like the West Lothian Question. Those disappear if England is independent.
Plus we will have a proper two party system so there will be even less reason to tinker with silly reforms and even less chance of a hung parliament to lead to an attempt to gerrymander a reform.0 -
It's gobsmacking. I've seen reports elsewhere that Leave's had so many they're twiddling their thumbs.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I still cant get over that there are over 700 volunteers in Newham campaining and leafleting for leave in Newham.
Even if its half that it is astonishing.
This is what elrctions in the 50s and 60s must have been like when party memberships wrere seven figures.
So much for modern apathy of the people. It wasnt apathy, it was abstension owing to the parties losing touch with the people0 -
If this carries on, Dave and George should make the ultimate sacrifice. Start campaigning for Brexit. That should scupper the Leave campaign.0
-
Ed Balls saying that the EU need to give us concessions on migration.Paul_Bedfordshire said:Whats this 7pm labour announcement then?
0 -
The thing that is most likely to rescue his legacy - or make it less abysmal - is what happens post-Brexit. If Boris tanks, then that will make Dave look a whole lot better.SeanT said:
Because he thought he'd win easily. Cf the ludicrous deal. He reckoned he could sell any old shit.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
Equally, he did give us a vote, unlike any PM in 40 years. Even as the contumely pours over Cameron, in coming years, he deserves a lot of credit for that. He was a democrat and he has given us a democratic choice.
Perhaps it will be this, in the very long term, which will rescue his legacy.
0 -
Wasn't the EU meant to give us concessions as part of the Deal?MaxPB said:
Ed Balls saying that the EU need to give us concessions on migration.Paul_Bedfordshire said:Whats this 7pm labour announcement then?
0 -
Well Salmond and Sturgeon whatever you think of them have got more political nous than all of the Labour and Tory remain campaigners put together. Yet I sense that they themselves are terribly torn on the issue as they can see the opportunities of a leave vote to get Scottish independence and apply to get back into the EU after that........which will be much easier if Scotland as a whole votes remain amongst an overall leave vote, when compared with SINDY in advance of a leave referendum result.scotslass said:hunchman
Which is to be fair what Salmond and the Scot Nats have been saying about the Remain campaign for weeks. He took part with Alan Johnstone on the only TV debate that Remain have actually won arguing a positive case FOR immigration and a positive case FOR peace and co-operation in Europe.0 -
I agree the PM deserves credit for sticking to the manifesto pledge to have a referendum. If he had really played hard ball with Merkel and Juncker, and got some decent reforms, Remain would be ahead by a country mile.SeanT said:
Because he thought he'd win easily. Cf the ludicrous deal. He reckoned he could sell any old shit.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
Equally, he did give us a vote, unlike any PM in 40 years. Even as the contumely pours over Cameron, in coming years, he deserves a lot of credit for that. He was a democrat and he has given us a democratic choice.
Perhaps it will be this, in the very long term, which will rescue his legacy.
At least the Conservative Party doesn't lack courage when they get into power. They knew this would split the party and welfare reform was always guaranteed to get them a good kicking. Labour are all about soundbites and short-term ideas.
0 -
Janan Ganesh's latest piece in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c108032-314f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz4BSKDEc00
One interesting line:
"I hear the Tory and Labour moderates newly mingling in the Remain offices rather get on."0 -
Is it? With Golf Standard polls like this?Alanbrooke said:
splutter !RodCrosby said:
He's way off. I'd estimate Leave at a 70% chance...currently.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/
that's rather bullish Rod.0 -
James Forsyth @JGForsyth
Hold your horses, immigration offer only Ed Balls reiterating his view—held since '10—that there should be controls on EU economic migration
'Ang about, Balls is just going solo. Claims he's been saying this since 2010.
0 -
WTF? I leafleted 200 roads when I lost a kitty.MP_SE said:
The numbers are very believable. Leafleting here is like 1.5 roads per person.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I still cant get over that there are over 700 volunteers in Newham campaining and leafleting for leave in Newham.
Even if its half that it is astonishing.
This is what elrctions in the 50s and 60s must have been like when party memberships wrere seven figures.
So much for modern apathy of the people. It wasnt apathy, it was abstension owing to the parties losing touch with the people0 -
There is even a huge LEAVE sign on my bedroom door and my wife knows nothing about the EU.0
-
My own view - or, rather, my hope.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I still cant get over that there are over 700 volunteers in Newham campaining and leafleting for leave in Newham.
Even if its half that it is astonishing.
This is what elrctions in the 50s and 60s must have been like when party memberships wrere seven figures.
So much for modern apathy of the people. It wasnt apathy, it was abstension owing to the parties losing touch with the people0 -
Not at all surprised to hear that news..AlastairMeeks said:Janan Ganesh's latest piece in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c108032-314f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz4BSKDEc00
One interesting line:
"I hear the Tory and Labour moderates newly mingling in the Remain offices rather get on."0 -
I think you are far too negative about our future if we leave. I think after a short term downturn we would do very well. We are a strong trading nation and armed with a weak currency we would do well.SouthamObserver said:
The thing that is most likely to rescue his legacy - or make it less abysmal - is what happens post-Brexit. If Boris tanks, then that will make Dave look a whole lot better.SeanT said:
Because he thought he'd win easily. Cf the ludicrous deal. He reckoned he could sell any old shit.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
Equally, he did give us a vote, unlike any PM in 40 years. Even as the contumely pours over Cameron, in coming years, he deserves a lot of credit for that. He was a democrat and he has given us a democratic choice.
Perhaps it will be this, in the very long term, which will rescue his legacy.0 -
Just how extraordinary are our Brexit betting markets at present?
Despite accumulating evidence that LEAVE has now drawn level with REMAIN and may now be fractionally ahead, the betting odds are telling a very different tale with the best available LEAVE price from various bookies at 2.75 (aka 7/4) a and the best available REMAIN price from Stan James at 1.53 (aka 8/15).
Were one to stake £100 on both these bets, were LEAVE to win this would produce a profit of £175, whereas were REMAIN to win, the resulting profit would be £53, almost 70% less than the profit from backing LEAVE.
The conclusion has to be that either the polls or the bookies' odds are substantially incorrect and are likely to reconcile much more closely by polling day.
This is where I and probably others need some wise advice from Mike Smithson ..... PLEASE!0 -
May and inarguable are total opposites. Which one is it....John_M said:
Brexit may catalyse a recession. That's inarguable. However, there's a recession on the way, Brexit or no.BenedictWhite said:
Bollocks. Markets are up and down like a lady of ill reputes draws.volcanopete said:The pound is likely to take a hammering tomorrow.Markets down across the world on Brexit fears.Brexit is making a world recession more possible.Why did Cameron ever agree to this?
The UK is an economic basket case in a number of ways - as is France and Italy.
The positive argument for Brexit is that it will allow the Eurozone to coalesce much faster than it otherwise would.0 -
So the BIG labour announcment is a former labour mp telling us his long held view & one which isn't on offer.0
-
I see Labour are calling for an end to free movement.
Didn't Cameron ask for this and get told to "Go Away! Shoo!"?0 -
No one believes that labour would do this, and no one believes that the EU would allow it.BenedictWhite said:I see Labour are calling for an end to free movement.
Didn't Cameron ask for this and get told to "Go Away! Shoo!"?
They truly are panicking.0 -
Yes, I'm being a bit fictitious - it's the only word to describe such actions. I've just watched the Owen Jones thing from last night. On the one hand I can understand that Jones was upset - I can believe such an attack would have a personal impact on someone who may go to such clubs. I felt a shiver go down my spine when I first heard about the Stade de France attacks.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 86, there's a change. I wonder if they'll use the T-word more often.
In reference to the gay nightclub shooting, I take it?
But what annoys me is this sense that we should be more angry about these murders because it is a 'hate crime'. I'm sorry, but indiscriminate terrorist attacks are just as bad. Perhaps in future, media outlets like the Guardian won't be so quick to jump to the defence of Islam the next time there is an attack on a city like Paris or London.0 -
But labours view for past 20 years has been all immigration is great & anybody who thinks otherwise is a racist....BenedictWhite said:I see Labour are calling for an end to free movement.
Didn't Cameron ask for this and get told to "Go Away! Shoo!"?
0 -
Blairites/Cameroons get on shockerAlastairMeeks said:Janan Ganesh's latest piece in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c108032-314f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz4BSKDEc00
One interesting line:
"I hear the Tory and Labour moderates newly mingling in the Remain offices rather get on." 0 -
He's a trifle pro Remain biased, as are most commentators. I follow most on Twitter and they lean Left.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/0 -
well I'm still in the stay cautious bit.Philip_Thompson said:
Is it? With Golf Standard polls like this?Alanbrooke said:
splutter !RodCrosby said:
He's way off. I'd estimate Leave at a 70% chance...currently.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/
that's rather bullish Rod.
leavers wishing to believe what they are hearing could end up like the SNPers post Indyref. PB needs more alternative views ( but won't get them ) Personally I'm still at the too close to call stage, but Rod has a damned good track record which sort of makes me sit up and take notice.0 -
Lol at farquharson trying to make this SNPBad.fitalass said:
And Jeremy Corbyn has been a huge fan of the EU project for years, oh wait...SouthamObserver said:
Cameron sowed the seeds of his own destruction. You can't spend years talking in negative terms about the EU and immigration, and then expect the voting public to take you seriously when you change your mind completely and with no real explanation. History will judge him harshly, but perhaps not as harshly as the Leavers who take over from him.MarqueeMark said:Wintour? Hmmmm.... Labour blaming the Tories that Labour voters wouldn't, er, vote for the Tories. It requires some brass neck to pull that one off.
Twitter
Kenny Farquharson @KennyFarq 8h8 hours ago
SNP and Labour leaderships will be equally culpable if there's a Brexit vote in the 23rd.0 -
The Blairites and Cameroons could form their own party, they have more in common with each other than Corbynistas and UKIP and the BrexiteersAlastairMeeks said:Janan Ganesh's latest piece in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c108032-314f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz4BSKDEc00
One interesting line:
"I hear the Tory and Labour moderates newly mingling in the Remain offices rather get on."0 -
All too true. EU supporters should have been making the + argument for years before this event. Blair and Mandelson tried in their early days.hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
Here's mine:
1. We'll be poorer outside the EU. And the people who will suffer the most are already suffering.0 -
The establishment are getting the kicking they deserve. They have taken the p*** out of the public and thought they could just keep tweaking. The worm has turned and it will be wonderful to see them wet their pants.Stark_Dawning said:Leave surely has it in the bag now. This has all the look and feel of the same phenomenon that created Donald Trump and is equally unstoppable. I can't see anything else that Remain can possibly do (other than pray that they're fantastically and wholeheartedly wrong about the consequences of Brexit).
0 -
Mr. Putney, I'd guess a huge sum has been placed on Remain, and that's keeping the odds on Leave relatively long.
As Mr. Shadsy reportedly said on the news recently, more bets on Leave of late, but they're small in size.
Mr. Thompson, if it's a golf standard poll, are you going to have a punto?0 -
This is why Vote Leave are playing these polls down and still saying it's 50/50 (which it probably is)
Mike Smithson
5m
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Biggest hope for REMAIN from ICM polling is that LEAVE vote concentrated amongst C2DEs - the socio-economic group least likely to vote0 -
Do you really think that's what it's like in the UK now? As someone who has scarpered I find it curious that you feel you can talk for the people who actually live here.Indigo said:
It not about fear its about cultural dislocation. People living in non-metropolitan UK, especially the elderly, don't feel comfortable in their own towns, they don't like seeing minarets, they aren't comfortable hearing calls from the Muezzin, they don't like seeing people in veils, but its not all about muslims, they don't like looking down the street their grew up in and seeing a long line of "polski sklep" either. They don't hate anyone, or fear anyone particularly, they are probably perfectly pleasant to the nice couple running the local post office, they just dont feel like they know the place they grew up in.John_M said:
Doesn't matter. Who the fuck is frightened of a Hindu? I wrote the other day about hating -phobic as a suffix, but a lot of people are clearly scared of Muslims, completely disproportionately to the risks they pose.John_N4 said:
Most immigrants nowadays are Christian or Hindu.AlastairMeeks said:@John_M That's the mandate that Leave is seeking: an anti-immigration, pull-up-the-drawbridge, scared about Muslims mandate.
If you want that, vote for it. But don't fool yourself that voting Leave means anything else.0 -
That Deutsche bank director will be 20,000 poorer - that's for surerottenborough said:
All too true. EU supporters should have been making the + argument for years before this event. Blair and Mandelson tried in their early days.hunchman said:
If and its a huge if, the UK votes to leave in 10 days time I will have zero sympathy for the remain apologists. You've never once made a POSITIVE case for remaining in the EU, not ONCE. Give me FIVE positive reasons to stay in the EU - can you manage that? Its been beyond the remain campaign even to get to ONE in this campaign. Therein alone lies the reason for their campaign being in crisis.rottenborough said:Seems the poll chimes with my own experience of running a Remain stall at weekend. It's Leave.
In 10 days the UK is poised to make a monumental mistake that we will rue for decades.
Here's mine:
1. We'll be poorer outside the EU. And the people who will suffer the most are already suffering.
0 -
The SNP would be dead within a decade after a Yes vote. The various factions would have achieved it aim and the big tent would be dead.Philip_Thompson said:
Leave ends the division in the Tory party. If we vote Leave then it is all over, game over. Ken Clarke, Michael Hesseltine and John Major can retire and dream what may have once been but the nation will Leave and the Tories will 100% unite behind that.TCPoliticalBetting said:Guardian "The figures will make grim reading for David Cameron, George Osborne and the Labour party."
Why grim reading for the Labour party? They end up with a new PM, an untested new Govt and massive splits in the Conservative party. The only Labour people upset are the bulk of their MPs but they were unhappy before the referendum and are out of touch with members (on Corbyn) and out of touch with a large part of Labour's voters (about the referendum).
The Tory party will be about as divided after a Leave vote as the SNP would be after a Scottish Yes vote.0 -
@HYUFD That's exactly his point. He's seeing a possible reshaping of British politics ahead.0
-
I too am cautious. Mostly because my track record of picking winning causes is pretty abysmal.Alanbrooke said:
well I'm still in the stay cautious bit.Philip_Thompson said:
Is it? With Golf Standard polls like this?Alanbrooke said:
splutter !RodCrosby said:
He's way off. I'd estimate Leave at a 70% chance...currently.hunchman said:I'm awaiting an update from Matt Singh. He hasn't updated his view for 6 days now:
http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/brexit-likelihood-has-increased-but-remain-is-still-favourite.html/
that's rather bullish Rod.
leavers wishing to believe what they are hearing could end up like the SNPers post Indyref. PB needs more alternative views ( but won't get them ) Personally I'm still at the too close to call stage, but Rod has a damned good track record which sort of makes me sit up and take notice.0 -
Mr. Meeks, that politicians from different parties often get along when out of the limelight is hardy news, even Yes Minister made such relationships a key point of of one episode and that was about thirty years ago.AlastairMeeks said:Janan Ganesh's latest piece in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c108032-314f-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz4BSKDEc00
One interesting line:
"I hear the Tory and Labour moderates newly mingling in the Remain offices rather get on."0 -
No more a lie than the bilge that remain have been spouting, in fact a lot closer to the truth I bet, it at least has some foundation.foxinsoxuk said:
It is a blatent lie and sounds like a lot of money. It is a meme (with immigration) that strikes a chord.MaxPB said:
Why do you think remain are so incensed by the £350m figure?foxinsoxuk said:Anecdata:
Overheard conversation in waiting room at work. Several retired old fellows moaning about the money going to the EU rather than NHS.
Overheard conversation between 3 nurses, one white British, one Indian and one Filipino (all naturalised so eligible to vote). All undecided, but leaning Leave over the subject of immigration.
I think both these memes are hollow, but they are working.0 -
Coming up: Trump's Big Anti-Terrorism Speech from Manchester, NH...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_XOEVRcoSQ0
