Undefined discussion subject.
Comments
-
Clinton numbers up and down more than seanT trousers...SouthamObserver said:Have we done this?
https://twitter.com/ppollingnumbers/status/7413350480461619200 -
Cameron never said Europe was terrible, he may have said the EU is terrible because it is, see why Dyson is backing BrexitStarfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter0 -
A lack of legislative program seems a bonus to me.John_M said:
I was mightily relieved to have been saved from P.M. Miliband. However, a combination of a lacklustre legislative program, a downright bad budget and Cameron's pathetic EU dissembling have made me long for the coalition. Or even a sensible (GiselaSouthamObserver said:Tim was right about Cameron and Osborne, wasn't he? At least Brexit will expose them for the second-raters they have always been. There were some on here who only a short while ago were bestowing greatness on them. Blimey.
) Labour administration. </p>
Looking busy is much overrated.0 -
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.0 -
Anyone on the fantasy football know how many players there are, globally?0
-
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
The Kansas poll is a certain rogue. But Hillary is soaring ahead anyway. Trump is toast. As I have said over and again. Hillary will win by 300+ in the college.0
-
haven't had any hot water for two weeks though. can't get decent workmen out here. no poles pushing up the rent!0
-
Do you know what... I think I agree with you 100%.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
There are many MPs who've had to work their way up, and fight but not the leaders these days.0 -
Indeed, it's all staged managed with multi culti grinning party members in the backdrop.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
That and the cut'n paste/retweet brigade.0 -
Plato makes a good point. But still a very good poll for leave. No two ways about it. And with that, goodnight.RoyalBlue said:
Isn't leave still ahead 53-47 with no turnout filter? If Leaver enthusiasm is offset by AB enthusiasm, isn't that still a Leave win?PlatoSaid said:Matt Singh
Vote Leave right to be skeptical about this poll. Look at these implied turnouts (out of 10) https://t.co/2gSIJMU84k https://t.co/7Fp8iX1f03
I wonder how it compares to older ORB polls.0 -
EU referendum - Hundreds of County Durham postal voting packs go missing - investigation launched https://t.co/6WrHLoasAX0
-
Cut n paste / retweet brigade...that news to me as we never get them on here.OUT said:
Indeed, it's all staged managed with muli culti grinning party members in the backdrop.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
That and the cut'n paste/retweet brigade.0 -
The housing market in England is...somewhat different.initforthemoney said:
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
Unless you're at a Labour rally in the 'Muslim community' - in which case it's ladies to the left, men to the right.OUT said:
Indeed, it's all staged managed with multi culti grinning party members in the backdrop.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
That and the cut'n paste/retweet brigade.0 -
Before the campaign started, I usually defended Cameron, despite being a leaver. I've been a leaver since the creation of the EEA, And, I think I've always been able to marshall a fairly Sked-ish argument for leaving. Now, however, for the first time, I'm starting to think that Leave could win, and all thoughts of possible greater long-term prosperity, democracy, control of fisheries etc has vanished into the background to be replaced by the delicious thought of Cameron conceding defeat and heading off to Brussels to break the news to his mates. Not a particularly pretty motivation, but there you go.John_M said:
I was mightily relieved to have been saved from P.M. Miliband. However, a combination of a lacklustre legislative program, a downright bad budget and Cameron's pathetic EU dissembling have made me long for the coalition. Or even a sensible (GiselaSouthamObserver said:Tim was right about Cameron and Osborne, wasn't he? At least Brexit will expose them for the second-raters they have always been. There were some on here who only a short while ago were bestowing greatness on them. Blimey.
) Labour administration. </p>
If I'm feeling like this, consider how keen to see him lose some Labour voter from Worksop who's always despised him and his posh mates must feel. No wonder John Mann's seeing some local hostility to Remain.
On another note, if Labour was more John Mann and Gisela Stuart and less Ed Miliband and Tony Blair over the past two decades they'd have been my natural home.
Fwiw, I still fully expect Remain to win, by fair means or foul.
0 -
What water heating system do you have?initforthemoney said:haven't had any hot water for two weeks though. can't get decent workmen out here. no poles pushing up the rent!
0 -
I would ask about the Jewish ones, but not sure they get many people these days.KentRising said:
Unless you're at a Labour rally in the 'Muslim community' - in which case it's ladies to the left, men to the right.OUT said:
Indeed, it's all staged managed with multi culti grinning party members in the backdrop.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
That and the cut'n paste/retweet brigade.0 -
It turns out the establishment was absolutely right about the consequences of Scottish indepenence. They also won the last GE and will win on 23rd June, whoever comes out on top.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
0 -
Pat Glass is a prime example. Her bigoted racist remarks re wherever this is, spoke volumes.Danny565 said:
The bottom line is "the Establishment" simply DON'T KNOW how to make political arguments without resorting to hysterical scaremongering, or by throwing out "the other guy smells of wee" insults.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal. In a campaign based around negativity and cynicism, Leave will win. Remain need to have a positive upbeat message around European co-operation and integration. David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
It is not just limited to the EU. We saw the same with the Scottish referendum, with both main parties in the 2015 election, and with the Establishment candidates in the Labour leadership contest. These guys simply have never learnt how to win a debate with ordinary people, never learnt how to think of persuasive arguments that can move the needle on big issues: they've never HAD to, since most of them have spent most of their lives in Westminster, before being parachuted into safe seats where little persuasion of their constituents was needed to get elected, before then spending their careers insulated in Westminster surrounded by fellow elites. They have simply never developed the skillset of WINNING ARGUMENTS IN THE REAL WORLD that past politicians had to develop.
Hasn't she met her own voters?0 -
Yes, he was right.SouthamObserver said:Tim was right about Cameron and Osborne, wasn't he? At least Brexit will expose them for the second-raters they have always been. There were some on here who only a short while ago were bestowing greatness on them. Blimey.
To think I actually voted for them. Only the first time round... but, still.
0 -
The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.0 -
Despite my instinctive aversion to all things EU, I actually prefer the current passports to the old blue (or black?) ones. They fit much more nicely in the pocket.0
-
Yeah... But I'll live with the inconvenience as long as it goes back to a proper passport!Cookie said:Despite my instinctive aversion to all things EU, I actually prefer the current passports to the old blue (or black?) ones. They fit much more nicely in the pocket.
0 -
Also we can't import more than we export forever. The pound falling might be part of the solution.Richard_Tyndall said:
Really?Fenman said:The question facing us now is one of survival. The pound is already down 10%, disastrous for a country that imports far more than it exports. At least two million will go into negative equity and unemployment will rapidly rise. We need to think how we will cope with a twenty year recession and permanent real economic decline. We face some very tough choices.
The pound closed this evening at 1.267against the Euro - which is higher than it was for the whole of the period 2009 - 2014 bar a couple of days when it crept up to 1.28
So please, tell me just how disastrous this was for the country.0 -
.0
-
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.0 -
Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Cameron is going thru the process.Starfall said:I am reading the Telegraph article below and I am in disbelief the BSIE campaign wants to respond to this rut by going even more negative and personal.
Two months ago, yes. But in thirteen days?Starfall said:David Cameron made a big mistake when he spent years saying Europe was terrible, but there's still time to make it up.
0 -
I still think the polls will move back into Remain's favour as voting day nears and voters coalesce around a better-the-devil-we-know flagpole.
But in the meantime watching the UK establishment and those sickening sneering Eurocrats like Schauble and Juncker shit themselves is great fun.
I'm prouder to be a member of the British working classes than I have been in ages. The establishment have hit us with propaganda, persuasion, coercion and threats of plague, pestilence and destitution. But have we buckled? No..
They counted on the feebleness of our provincial minds to crumble under the pressure of their superior intellect and for us to kneel subserviently at the altar of their almighty presence. And have we crumbed? Have we bent to one, coal-dusted proletarian knee? Like shit, we have.
We've stuck together with a giant FUCK YOU tattooed on our sweaty, work-weary brows and now find ourselves 10 points ahead in the polls. It's brilliant. Herman Van Fucking Rompuy must be wondering why us Brits haven't taken to his obvious, inspirational charms.
Where did it all go wrong eh?
It might not last and very probably won't.... but hey, in the meantime at 10 points in front - LOL.0 -
Ms Eagle.... Dear oh dear oh dear....0
-
I think we may look back on the 2010-2015 coalition as the golden time of British politics?John_M said:
I was mightily relieved to have been saved from P.M. Miliband. However, a combination of a lacklustre legislative program, a downright bad budget and Cameron's pathetic EU dissembling have made me long for the coalition. Or even a sensible (GiselaSouthamObserver said:Tim was right about Cameron and Osborne, wasn't he? At least Brexit will expose them for the second-raters they have always been. There were some on here who only a short while ago were bestowing greatness on them. Blimey.
) Labour administration. </p>0 -
Problem is, I remember when £1=$2, and when £1=€1.5. Neither of those things were that long ago.Richard_Tyndall said:
Really?Fenman said:The question facing us now is one of survival. The pound is already down 10%, disastrous for a country that imports far more than it exports. At least two million will go into negative equity and unemployment will rapidly rise. We need to think how we will cope with a twenty year recession and permanent real economic decline. We face some very tough choices.
The pound closed this evening at 1.267against the Euro - which is higher than it was for the whole of the period 2009 - 2014 bar a couple of days when it crept up to 1.28
So please, tell me just how disastrous this was for the country.0 -
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.0 -
And in most of Scotland tbf. This is why I'm not looking forward to getting a job and finding I have to move to a flat 25% of the size. If only Betfair hadn't introduced that damn premium charge....viewcode said:
The housing market in England is...somewhat different.initforthemoney said:
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.0
-
Oil (was expensive for a while there)...it's a combi boiler....landlord has a service contract (Worcester Bosch so occasionally I get to speak to someone with a an accent which takes me back to my youth) but it's the usual nonsense with that not applying to the line and it taking a week for a bloke to show up to clear the line only to discover that he can't get the boiler working again....you meet some absolutely comical workmen in these parts. I'm just glad that as a renter I don't have to pay these clowns (directly).viewcode said:
What water heating system do you have?initforthemoney said:haven't had any hot water for two weeks though. can't get decent workmen out here. no poles pushing up the rent!
0 -
Surely while we're EU members the super soaraway pound can only have been going up?viewcode said:
Problem is, I remember when £1=$2, and when £1=€1.5. Neither of those things were that long ago.Richard_Tyndall said:
Really?Fenman said:The question facing us now is one of survival. The pound is already down 10%, disastrous for a country that imports far more than it exports. At least two million will go into negative equity and unemployment will rapidly rise. We need to think how we will cope with a twenty year recession and permanent real economic decline. We face some very tough choices.
The pound closed this evening at 1.267against the Euro - which is higher than it was for the whole of the period 2009 - 2014 bar a couple of days when it crept up to 1.28
So please, tell me just how disastrous this was for the country.0 -
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
0 -
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
0 -
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.0 -
If you're happy where you are, don't changeinitforthemoney said:
And in most of Scotland tbf. This is why I'm not looking forward to getting a job and finding I have to move to a flat 25% of the size. If only Betfair hadn't introduced that damn premium charge....viewcode said:
The housing market in England is...somewhat different.initforthemoney said:
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.0 -
Have been watching her nightmare performance from the debate... No wonder she (supposedly) turned the air blue afterwards.PlatoSaid said:
Now finished watching and don't have much to add. Was a clear win for LEAVE, REMAIN was a shambles and what a formidable lady Andrea Leadsom is!
0 -
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
0 -
If it weren't for tax credits changing to universal credit implying one has to find work (at the moment i qualify for plenty of child tax credit without needing to do so) I wouldn't. But unless I can find work in Glasgow (or nearer) i'll have to move eventually. Frankly I'd rather move than work in a betting shop as well....viewcode said:
If you're happy where you are, don't changeinitforthemoney said:
And in most of Scotland tbf. This is why I'm not looking forward to getting a job and finding I have to move to a flat 25% of the size. If only Betfair hadn't introduced that damn premium charge....viewcode said:
The housing market in England is...somewhat different.initforthemoney said:
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
Philip_Thompson said:
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
No they didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014
0 -
Rubbish.viewcode said:
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
0 -
In two weeks time Dave might well have resigned as Prime Minister! Just two weeks!fitalass said:
Rubbish.viewcode said:
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
0 -
People like combi boilers and gas, but they bug the hell out of me: so many moving parts, so much piping, it's like something out of "Brazil", they always go wrong. I prefer electrical boilers with Economy 7 (yes, you can still get it) and electrical power showers. They don't work out well if you have kids but if you're single/partnered and can schedule your water usage they are cheaper.initforthemoney said:
Oil (was expensive for a while there)...it's a combi boiler....landlord has a service contract (Worcester Bosch so occasionally I get to speak to someone with a an accent which takes me back to my youth) but it's the usual nonsense with that not applying to the line and it taking a week for a bloke to show up to clear the line only to discover that he can't get the boiler working again....you meet some absolutely comical workmen in these parts. I'm just glad that as a renter I don't have to pay these clowns (directly).viewcode said:
What water heating system do you have?initforthemoney said:haven't had any hot water for two weeks though. can't get decent workmen out here. no poles pushing up the rent!
Sorry, I'm banging on...
0 -
This is excellent pro Brexit argument
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/0 -
I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides.0 -
There won't be a "normal" last-minute swing to Remain, because it isn't as clear as it usually is in referendums which side upholds the status quo. Immigration is viewed as change - a movement that has happened and is still happening and that people believe they have only got a serious chance of stopping if they vote Leave. Leave is saying "Stop". Remain is saying "Forward", or more accurately they are saying "Don't stop". A lot of the talk about telephone polls as against online polls, and about the status quo's built-in advantage, sounds like wishful thinking.
Remain have only one option: paint a picture of Armageddon and make it realistic. Never mind the IMF. People may not be able to verbalise the fact that the IMF is a bank, but they still understand it well enough when Christine Lagarde talks about Britgov's current account deficit. As for Obama, "back of the queue"? Right, sure, let's hear from all the foreigners what they want. What an idiotic idea by Remain! What they need to do is call in the Governor of the Bank of England. Let people argue afterwards about whether purdah-defying political pressure was put on him. Tell him to say look, everyone, you can vote Leave if you want, but don't blame me if you won't be able to get any money out of your bank account on Friday afternoon and for I don't know how long afterwards, if indeed you ever can. Unfortunately for Remain his act makes it impossible for him to talk in a demotic way, but maybe he can get the message across somehow.
For Remain to win, there must be a sense of EMERGENCY. Nee-na, nee-na! "You naughty voters are going to HURT yourselves if you vote Leave. The pound has already fallen 7%, thousands are stuck at airports, Wimbledon has been called off, there's no petrol coming out of the pumps, and the queen is CRYING. You're very irresponsible children! Your doors have already fallen off, and how would you like your whole house to fall down?"
Meanwhile, 17 June is triple witching day on the derivatives markets
Has anyone published an analysis of factors that correlate with the extent of this effect?KentRising said:Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.
That would be "scientific", if people want to test the theory that it's a universal or normal effect: look for when it's been weak or non-existent or things have gone in the other direction and ask why.
There is also the question of which side represents the status quo.0 -
You sure? He is losing. If he carries on as planned, he will lose his vote, his reputation, and soon after his job. Panicking is a rational responsefitalass said:
Rubbish.viewcode said:
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
0 -
Brexiteers make a rival gambling poster
TTIP has been all but ignored by the Remain campaign @WhiteWednesday #VoteLeave #Brexit https://t.co/17YyQYBiNV0 -
Very good pointJohn_N4 said:There won't be a "normal" last-minute swing to Remain, because it isn't as clear as it usually is in referendums which side upholds the status quo. Immigration is viewed as change - a movement that has happened and is still happening and that people believe they have only got a serious chance of stopping if they vote Leave.
0 -
There wasn't a single double digit No lead from the second debate onwards yet No won by over 10%Estobar said:Philip_Thompson said:
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
No they didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_20140 -
Ow! Good luckinitforthemoney said:
If it weren't for tax credits changing to universal credit implying one has to find work (at the moment i qualify for plenty of child tax credit without needing to do so) I wouldn't. But unless I can find work in Glasgow (or nearer) i'll have to move eventually. Frankly I'd rather move than work in a betting shop as well....viewcode said:
If you're happy where you are, don't changeinitforthemoney said:
And in most of Scotland tbf. This is why I'm not looking forward to getting a job and finding I have to move to a flat 25% of the size. If only Betfair hadn't introduced that damn premium charge....viewcode said:
The housing market in England is...somewhat different.initforthemoney said:
it's roughly three times the size of a crap semi-detached or flat. it's in a depopulated area of scotland full of crumbling massive victorian villas and nuclear warheads.viewcode said:
That's... quite inexpensive, tbh
(3000sqft is 60ft by 50ft. That's a 2-bed flat. A single room in the South East - not London, just the South East - will go for about £350-450pcm. Am I missing something here? Is my maths wrong?)0 -
That just means the polls understated the lead, not whether there was or wasn't swing back to the status quo. There were only 2 polls with yes in the lead and they could have been rogues.Philip_Thompson said:
There wasn't a single double digit No lead from the second debate onwards yet No won by over 10%Estobar said:Philip_Thompson said:
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
No they didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_20140 -
Come on, that's sly and you know it. You can't put down your own arbitrary marker in the sand in order to rescue your argument. In August, just a four weeks before the vote, the No campaign was leading by between 13 and 20% in the polls and throughout the summer regularly posted double digit leads. They even at one stage had a whopping 30% lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014Philip_Thompson said:
There wasn't a single double digit No lead from the second debate onwards yet No won by over 10%Estobar said:Philip_Thompson said:
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
No they didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014
0 -
I am off to bed, good night.0
-
The Dyson article is a humdinger.
In amongst all the theorising he explains very simply why the single market is illusory.
0 -
It's a Brexiter's wet dream on here tonight. John Mann - superb. And now this from Dyson.PlatoSaid said:This is excellent pro Brexit argument
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
-------------
He produces another staggering fact. “Sixty per cent of engineering undergraduates at British universities are from outside the EU, and 90 per cent of people doing research in science and engineering at British universities are from outside the EU. And we chuck them out!” He gives a trodden-puppy yelp.
Softly spoken, Dyson’s Home Service Received Pronunciation tones become incensed when he talks about what he sees as our disloyalty to Commonwealth countries. “They fought for us in two world wars. So that particularly upsets me. We’re missing out on all those people who have helped us and with whom we have a great affinity, often a common language.0 -
Though I do like this cartoon:
https://twitter.com/bankersreform/status/7414222695331921920 -
It's not just politicians that are getting nasty
'Eagle, I suspect, doesn't know how to spell sovereignty. She probably thinks it's a bit like Bitcoin or something.'
Ouch
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/09/leave-won-the-itv-debate-and-boris-johnson-looks-like-a-future-p/
0 -
Beware the echo chamber- a lot of NATS were convinced they were going to win SINDYREF because they spent their time talking to fellow believers.....Estobar said:I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides.0 -
Nothing beats the "America Stronger In Empire" posterPlatoSaid said:Brexiteers make a rival gambling poster
TTIP has been all but ignored by the Remain campaign @WhiteWednesday #VoteLeave #Brexit https://t.co/17YyQYBiNV
0 -
Ditto PB Tories and 2015. The key difference is PB Tories are never wrong, etc....CarlottaVance said:
Beware the echo chamber- a lot of NATS were convinced they were going to win SINDYREF because they spent their time talking to fellow believers.....Estobar said:I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides. 0 -
That was so classy.RobD said:
Nothing beats the "America Stronger In Empire" posterPlatoSaid said:Brexiteers make a rival gambling poster
TTIP has been all but ignored by the Remain campaign @WhiteWednesday #VoteLeave #Brexit https://t.co/17YyQYBiNV0 -
The thing that bothers me most is our inability to educate our own engineers. We clearly have the work for them to do.KentRising said:
It's a Brexiter's wet dream on here tonight. John Mann - superb. And now this from Dyson.PlatoSaid said:This is excellent pro Brexit argument
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
-------------
He produces another staggering fact. “Sixty per cent of engineering undergraduates at British universities are from outside the EU, and 90 per cent of people doing research in science and engineering at British universities are from outside the EU. And we chuck them out!” He gives a trodden-puppy yelp.
Softly spoken, Dyson’s Home Service Received Pronunciation tones become incensed when he talks about what he sees as our disloyalty to Commonwealth countries. “They fought for us in two world wars. So that particularly upsets me. We’re missing out on all those people who have helped us and with whom we have a great affinity, often a common language.0 -
I am simple saying it would be the wrong response from Cameron and the Remain team in the last days of the EU Ref campaign. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic when you are arguing for economic stability and security within the EU. If anything, it would be far more useful to Cameron and Remain it there were signs of panic beginning to emerge from the EU at the possibility of the UK voting leave.viewcode said:
You sure? He is losing. If he carries on as planned, he will lose his vote, his reputation, and soon after his job. Panicking is a rational responsefitalass said:
Rubbish.viewcode said:
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
At the end of the day, it is still the Vote Leave campaign that has to convince the voters to take that leap into the unknown at a time when we have had years of austerity on the back of the last recession. And at a time when we have growing threat of terrorism across Europe while Putin sits watching from the sidelines.0 -
The Times will be for Remain, 62% of its readers back Remain. The tabloids will be for Leave but then 71% of Sun readers already back LeaveEstobar said:
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/0 -
"Eagle, as I may have already mentioned, was the pits. If the EU debate really matters as much as she claimed, she shouldn’t have wasted our time with a political broadcast for the Labour Party. Her priority, one suspects, is to supplant Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour. Never has a display of naked ambition been so tawdry, shameless and counter-productive.Estobar said:It's not just politicians that are getting nasty
'Eagle, I suspect, doesn't know how to spell sovereignty. She probably thinks it's a bit like Bitcoin or something.'
Ouch
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/09/leave-won-the-itv-debate-and-boris-johnson-looks-like-a-future-p/
Biggest news of the night: Dennis Skinner has come out for Brexit. Evidently, he doesn’t think it’ll lead to World War III or child labour. Someone tell Angela. If they can get a word in."0 -
The UK state school system educates its kids to become office fodder, I'm afraid. Simple as that. May as well just teach them Excel and photocopying and send 'em out into the workplace, and be done with it.BenedictWhite said:
The thing that bothers me most is our inability to educate our own engineers. We clearly have the work for them to do.KentRising said:
It's a Brexiter's wet dream on here tonight. John Mann - superb. And now this from Dyson.PlatoSaid said:This is excellent pro Brexit argument
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
-------------
He produces another staggering fact. “Sixty per cent of engineering undergraduates at British universities are from outside the EU, and 90 per cent of people doing research in science and engineering at British universities are from outside the EU. And we chuck them out!” He gives a trodden-puppy yelp.
Softly spoken, Dyson’s Home Service Received Pronunciation tones become incensed when he talks about what he sees as our disloyalty to Commonwealth countries. “They fought for us in two world wars. So that particularly upsets me. We’re missing out on all those people who have helped us and with whom we have a great affinity, often a common language.0 -
Final polls in Quebec in 1995 had Yes ahead but the don't knows went for No and No won by a very narrow 51% to 49% marginEstobar said:I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides.0 -
OMW
Saturday's Daily Mail front page:
Arise Sir Remain!
#tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers https://t.co/mnbMBJphjH0 -
You may be right about the Times but I suspect if you are it will be lukewarm and ambivalent (remember I was talking about headlines). And there's always the chance that he who pays the piper will call the tune ...HYUFD said:
The Times will be for Remain, 62% of its readers back Remain. The tabloids will be for Leave but then 71% of Sun readers already back LeaveEstobar said:
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/0 -
Gisela Stuart
“There is a successful union called United Kingdom and there is an unsuccessful union called the EU.”
https://t.co/I3kOYvF3Bb0 -
Agree with lots about where Remain is going wrong tonight - just smearing is putting off everyone. I only caught the end of last night's debate, but Angela Eagle oh my word - what were a Labour thinking putting her up? Totally summed up the crisis within Labour on this.
Questions at lunch about where the Lib Dems are. I think the answer is quietly sticking with remain. My reading is that the leadership have been shocked how little response they've had to their #InTogether campaign about how wonderful the EU is. I've been repelled by the nonsense scaremongering of BSE (and the unwillingness to fight for EU membership as worth it, not just too costly to change.) And I've spent enough time looking into the detail to know that the EU needs improving in many ways, so enthusiastic support just seems naive to me. However the big difference between LD and Labour voters is that there's much less anti-immigrant sentiment in the LDs, so Remain's failure to deal with immigration is nowhere near as big a deal. So while I see many Lib Dems as quieter and less enthusiastic than they were, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a sizeable Remain lead from LDs in the end,0 -
Murdoch will likely hedge his bets, the Times for Remain and the Sun for Leave. He did it at the general election with the English Sun backing the Tories and the Scottish Sun the SNPEstobar said:
You may be right about the Times but I suspect if you are it will be lukewarm and ambivalent (remember I was talking about headlines). And there's always the chance that he who pays the piper will call the tune ...HYUFD said:
The Times will be for Remain, 62% of its readers back Remain. The tabloids will be for Leave but then 71% of Sun readers already back LeaveEstobar said:
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/0 -
Remember "wobbly Thursday"? Thatcher held her nerve and won.....fitalass said:
I am simple saying it would be the wrong response from Cameron and the Remain team in the last days of the EU Ref campaign. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic when you are arguing for economic stability and security within the EU. If anything, it would be far more useful to Cameron and Remain it there were signs of panic beginning to emerge from the EU at the possibility of the UK voting leave.viewcode said:
You sure? He is losing. If he carries on as planned, he will lose his vote, his reputation, and soon after his job. Panicking is a rational responsefitalass said:
Rubbish.viewcode said:
The problem is not that Dave is panicking. The problem is that he isn't panicking enoughBenedictWhite said:
Someone needs to tell call me Dave. He appears to be panicking.fitalass said:Got the same advice for the Remain campaign team I had for the Better Together team at this late stage of the EU debate when it comes to the polls and increasingly hysterical onslaught from your opponents. Keep calm and carry on, and what ever you do, don't panic.
At the end of the day, it is still the Vote Leave campaign that has to convince the voters to take that leap into the unknown at a time when we have had years of austerity on the back of the last recession. And at a time when we have growing threat of terrorism across Europe while Putin sits watching from the sidelines.
0 -
Very different circs though? He is strongly anti EU pro-Brexit and he always backs the winning horse. The GE was a different kettle of fish and a very interesting, and astute, call: tapping into the working class nationalist vote.HYUFD said:
Murdoch will likely hedge his bets, the Times for Remain and the Sun for Leave. He did it at the general election with the English Sun backing the Tories and the Scottish Sun the SNPEstobar said:
You may be right about the Times but I suspect if you are it will be lukewarm and ambivalent (remember I was talking about headlines). And there's always the chance that he who pays the piper will call the tune ...HYUFD said:
The Times will be for Remain, 62% of its readers back Remain. The tabloids will be for Leave but then 71% of Sun readers already back LeaveEstobar said:
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/
We will see. You may be right.0 -
Nothing about what I said stops him backing the winning horse, Murdoch is above all a businessman and he will not alienate 2/3 of Times readers to back Brexit when he is already backing Brexit through the Sun. Market share is all for himEstobar said:
Very different circs though? He is strongly anti EU pro-Brexit and he always backs the winning horse. The GE was a different kettle of fish and a very interesting, and astute, call: tapping into the working class nationalist vote.HYUFD said:
Murdoch will likely hedge his bets, the Times for Remain and the Sun for Leave. He did it at the general election with the English Sun backing the Tories and the Scottish Sun the SNPEstobar said:
You may be right about the Times but I suspect if you are it will be lukewarm and ambivalent (remember I was talking about headlines). And there's always the chance that he who pays the piper will call the tune ...HYUFD said:
The Times will be for Remain, 62% of its readers back Remain. The tabloids will be for Leave but then 71% of Sun readers already back LeaveEstobar said:
It's the headlines that will swing it even further to Leave. There's another awful batch for Remain tomorrow. It's incessant.HYUFD said:
Don't Knows clearly went for No in Scotland, not massively so but it was there. Most of the tabloids will be for Leave, the broadsheets and effectively the BBC for RemainEstobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
The Telegraph obviously won't be pro Remain and I wouldn't have thought the Times would be particularly so either. So which broadsheet do you mean? The Guardian and, er, FT I guess.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu-referendum-provincial-england-versus-london-and/
We will see. You may be right.0 -
Carlotta, you hit the nail on the head with that point. I find it incredible that anyone can claim its finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave with two weeks of the campaign to go. There is at least two things that could happen, and totally out with the control of the Vote Leave campaign. If the polls continue to look favourable for Out, there is a good chance that that this could push up turnout for Remain voters at the ballot box on the day. And as I said in an earlier post, some signs of panic from EU leaders and the possibility of further concessions for the UK would certainly be welcomed by the Remain team.CarlottaVance said:
Beware the echo chamber- a lot of NATS were convinced they were going to win SINDYREF because they spent their time talking to fellow believers.....Estobar said:I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides.
I was very struck by the plea from an audience member on BBC QuestionTime who tried to remind us of all about one of the most positive aspects of the EU project, peace and stability in Europe.0 -
Nothing wrong with a little bit of complacency from LEAVErs.....fitalass said:
I find it incredible that anyone can claim its finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave with two weeks of the campaign to go. There is at least two things that could happen, and totally out with the control of the Vote Leave campaign. If the polls continue to look favourable for Out, there is a good chance that that this could push up turnout for Remain voters at the ballot box on the day. And as I said in an earlier post, some signs of panic from EU leaders and the possibility of further concessions for the UK would certainly be welcomed by the Remain team.CarlottaVance said:
Beware the echo chamber- a lot of NATS were convinced they were going to win SINDYREF because they spent their time talking to fellow believers.....Estobar said:I genuinely think it's finished for Remain barring any cock up by Leave. Remain have shot their bolt. They took people for idiots, which is what you would expect from Cameron and his entourage. He will probably change tone at the last minute and try to plead with people but by then it will be too late.
There is, quite simply, too strong a sentiment that it's time to take back control. It crosses the political, economic and social divides.
I was very struck by the plea from an audience member on BBC QuestionTime who tried to remind us of all about one of the most positive aspects of the EU project, peace and stability in Europe.0 -
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
0 -
Despite being a staunch Eurosceptic most of my adult life, there is no doubt that the almost wall to wall two year Indy Ref campaign up here helped form and strengthen my decision to vote remain should there be a subsequent EU Ref if the Tories won the GE. And what is interesting is that I am not seeing a very strong widespread Tory led Vote Leave campaign here in Scotland. If anything, the Brexiters I know are very evenly spread across Scottish Conservative, SLabour and the SNP.tpfkar said:Agree with lots about where Remain is going wrong tonight - just smearing is putting off everyone. I only caught the end of last night's debate, but Angela Eagle oh my word - what were a Labour thinking putting her up? Totally summed up the crisis within Labour on this.
Questions at lunch about where the Lib Dems are. I think the answer is quietly sticking with remain. My reading is that the leadership have been shocked how little response they've had to their #InTogether campaign about how wonderful the EU is. I've been repelled by the nonsense scaremongering of BSE (and the unwillingness to fight for EU membership as worth it, not just too costly to change.) And I've spent enough time looking into the detail to know that the EU needs improving in many ways, so enthusiastic support just seems naive to me. However the big difference between LD and Labour voters is that there's much less anti-immigrant sentiment in the LDs, so Remain's failure to deal with immigration is nowhere near as big a deal. So while I see many Lib Dems as quieter and less enthusiastic than they were, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a sizeable Remain lead from LDs in the end,0 -
In Scotland don't know meant No. The polls were spot on and there was no swing back.Philip_Thompson said:
There wasn't a single double digit No lead from the second debate onwards yet No won by over 10%Estobar said:Philip_Thompson said:
The polls did swing back to No in Scotland.Estobar said:
No I think this is a complete myth. It didn't happen in Scotland and it won't happen here. I know this goes against the pb leaders' wisdom, and Peter Kellner, but the press are so pro Brexit that it will more than counter any of that effect. And yes they do still have an influence. A massive one.KentRising said:
Surely it's the other way around, if past referendums are anything to go by? The side challenging the status quo must have a very healthy lead as people tend to lose courage in the final days/booth.Estobar said:The poll is great but in a way unsurprising. The momentum has been with Leave for over a week. I used the analogy before of Dave Bedford's 10000m races. He didn't have a fast finish so would need to be a lap ahead at the bell. If Remain were going to win they should have been way out in front.
Now we have to hope there are no slip ups.
I think Leave need to be polling consistently and significantly in front to actually finish with a lead when the votes are in. Can't see it myself. It was a gargantuan task Leave had, and they've done admirably, but it won't be enough.
No they didn't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_20140 -
And I remember when £1 = €1.05 and £1 = $1.15viewcode said:
Problem is, I remember when £1=$2, and when £1=€1.5. Neither of those things were that long ago.Richard_Tyndall said:
Really?Fenman said:The question facing us now is one of survival. The pound is already down 10%, disastrous for a country that imports far more than it exports. At least two million will go into negative equity and unemployment will rapidly rise. We need to think how we will cope with a twenty year recession and permanent real economic decline. We face some very tough choices.
The pound closed this evening at 1.267against the Euro - which is higher than it was for the whole of the period 2009 - 2014 bar a couple of days when it crept up to 1.28
So please, tell me just how disastrous this was for the country.0 -
And I remember when £1 = €1.05 and £= $1.05 (with talk of parity)viewcode said:
Problem is, I remember when £1=$2, and when £1=€1.5. Neither of those things were that long ago.Richard_Tyndall said:
Really?Fenman said:The question facing us now is one of survival. The pound is already down 10%, disastrous for a country that imports far more than it exports. At least two million will go into negative equity and unemployment will rapidly rise. We need to think how we will cope with a twenty year recession and permanent real economic decline. We face some very tough choices.
The pound closed this evening at 1.267against the Euro - which is higher than it was for the whole of the period 2009 - 2014 bar a couple of days when it crept up to 1.28
So please, tell me just how disastrous this was for the country.0 -
Guido has tweeted tbat Cameron is going to stand up on his hind legs side by side with Irish PM Enda Kenny and ask Irish voters in the UK to vote remain.
#facepalm0
