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There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?0 -
What do the Latvian homophobes think about Brexit?Alanbrooke said:
That should motivate the Labour vote.CarlottaVance said:Faisal Islam: LIVE on @SkyNews - ex Cabinet minister @grantshapps declares for Remain
Where's tim when you need him ?0 -
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.
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I posted about this a few days ago, the struggle within the remain campaign exists because the EU is shit. It is an awful organisation that truly appeals to no more than 20% of British people, the remain side have had to cajole and threaten the ~30% of additional voters onto their side. The country is naturally EUsceptic, we like Europe but don't see the need for the EU. Cameron and Osborne are finding it tough because this is an environment of their creating having posed as EUsceptics for 10 years and telling the public that an acceptable level of migration is in the "tens of thousands" and berating the EU for not giving us any levers with which to control the numbers. I honestly think Dave tried to get a major concession on migration, he fails to understand that any discrimination within the EU leads to it breaking apart as countries begin to question the benefits. As always British politicians see the EU as an economic construct, continental politicians see it as political one. The EMU is a great example where the politics have trumped the economics.LucyJones said:I was thinking earlier abo
This should be about the future of the country, not what is best for Dave's political career and "legacy" or even the Conservative party.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
If the arguments to Remain were sufficiently strong, he wouldn't need to try his best to rig the referendum in his favour (£9million on Remain leaflets, campaigning whilst Leave ministers were gagged, rushed referendum to avoid "unhelpful" scenes in the Med and Southern Europe over the summer, etc).
It is probably hard for you to understand if you haven't been there, but once you have crossed the Rubicon and turned away from Cameron it is hard to imagine oneself ever returning to that fold. I voted Conservative in every election bar the last one since I turned 18 (20 years ago now) and used to defend Cameron and Osborne (including on here, when I used to post more frequently a few years ago). These days, as I regard from a distance Cameron's ever-shrinking grouping of fans, I think I know how tim must have felt when he went on (and on and on) about "PBTories".
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Yes good point they were criminals, officially according to HMG. And to HMF for that matter, which I do recall you saying you were a member of.HurstLlama said:
Mr. Topping, may I please gently take issue with your use of the word, "war". I obviously do not have the personal and family experiences of Northern Ireland and its relationship with the RoI that Mr. Brooke does. None the less it did occupy a great chunk of my adult life, about twenty years worth, so I have some first hand experience.TOPPING said:
ah! oops. Apols. In the heat of the moment I forgot you are in this country (makes a change from talking to Leavers who are 5,000 miles away..)
I disagree about the "not so pissed off" bit, though. Didn't the Met just increase the security alert for Irish terrorism. As you will know, and as your family will attest, the war is not over for those who are fighting it, no matter how many battles they lose, and the reimposition of border controls would act as a strong recruiting sergeant.
PIRA and the associated organisations, on both sides, were never fighting a war, Criminal gangsterism, aimed as much at self enrichment and securing control over certain communities as anything else, yes, but a war it certainly was not.
But I think it faintly absurd not to acknowledge the motivation of the participants who see themselves as part of the same struggle in an unbroken line from Cathal Brugha et al onwards.0 -
You can also get porn on tap too after a few clicksNickPalmer said:
There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?0 -
Major's whole emphasis regarding Europe was reform - remember subsidiarity?TOPPING said:
This is I think central to the issue. Transparently, we haven't done this. I'm sure you could quote chapter and verse at me about what Major or Blair or the Coalition did or didn't do, but I really don't think they tried too hard to reform. In fact the only time I can remember that we pushed back on something was the Fiscal Compact. Which we successfully pushed back on.
Perhaps because they didn't feel the public cared that much for them to try too hard. If there had been more of an impetus, I'm sure they would have tried harder.
Look at now - we only have a referendum because UKIP grew in size and forced one on Dave.
It comes back to my point that many Leavers are more disappointed with the actions or inactions of British politicians than they are with the EU.
He failed. Just as Cameron or his successor will fail. In the past this was because the EU didn't want to listen. Now it is because they can't afford to listen. Political union is an absolute necessity for economic union to survive. There is no alternative.0 -
Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.PlatoSaid said:HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?
So true! I always thought of angling as the poor weather substitute for having a nice shed/man cave.
Teach a man to fish, and he'll spend the day on a boat drinking beer...
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The one downside of the man cave, and I have a beaut, is that one is always liable to that cry from Herself, "Llama, are you going to....".PlatoSaid said:HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?
So true! I always thought of angling as the poor weather substitute for having a nice shed/man cave.
On which note, how many men on here are called by their surnames by their wives? My wife has always done this and especially when talking about me to her friends. I have long thought we were, if not a unique, then certainly an unusual couple in this respect. However, the other day we went round for drinkies and cards with a young couple (late twenties I'd guess) and they did exactly the same ("Smith, that was never a two spade opener what were you thinking of...").0 -
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Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?williamglenn said:
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.0 -
>1000 posts!0
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It's not as if the leading and middle-level figures in the paramilitary gangs have gone away. Another factor in the end of the troubles was the growth of housing construction, founded on large debt. That changed the face of Ireland on both sides of the border. Rather than making their money from a mixture of pubs and clubs, taxis, extortion, illegal drugs, and some building site work, it became building building building all the way, and associated work such as estate agency, property management, and mortgage brokering, plus some things like car insurance. As most people got deeper and deeper into debt, there was easy money for these scum. They started living in execrable-taste "Southfork"-like "ranches" outside of the towns, in some cases getting juicy EU agricultural grants on top of planning-permission scam money they shared with crooks at the town halls.Alanbrooke said:In any event a review of the Troubles would show that what turned the tide on the paramilitaries wasnt border controls, but infiltration , better intelligence and an agreement between the UK and RoI that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have these people in our societies.
The fear is that when they find that their take from the economy isn't so easy to get any more, they may get their guns out again.
Infiltration and intelligence did play a part, but it wasn't the only part because the UDA, UVF and IRA had been very very heavily infiltrated for decades.
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Of course it isn't going to be easy, but the TTIP and TPP are just the US using it's economic power to push their standards and advantage their companies globally. I'm not comfortable with that either.JonathanD said:
Trade liberalisation by the WTO has failed - the action is all now in Regional Trade Agreements which is why we've had TPP and now TTIP. Getting agreement by all 170 members of the WTO is simply too difficult.MaxPB said:
Pushing the idea of single global goods standards via the WTO is what we need to do..FF43 said:To some extent there was a similar competition earlier between EFTA and the EEC, which the EEC won comprehensively.
I think your idea is an interesting one, with the caveat that it is not a reason to vote Out. There is unlikely to be any demand for an alternative to the EU any time soon. However if you are voting Out anyway, it's a good long term thing to do.
Standardisation has a value, which is why the EU has developed as it has. For the same there aren't any alternative organisations to the UN and NATO. The business case for the alternative arrangement is that the EU is in such a big crisis that it obliterates the value of standardisation. The risk of the EU collapsing is high enough to consider alternatives (your proposal), but not high enough to affect our decision making (don't switch from In to Out on the assumption thar it will happen)0 -
Offtopic:
The most bizzarre drugs ban you'll ever read about... http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/brian-a-lynch-private-zone-usa-favourite-scratched-after-trainer-fails-drug-test/2097692/top/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews0 -
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Alas Mr. Topping, that sort of line was used to entice recruits, in the reality the motivation, especially of the men towards the top, was very different. There is, I think, enough in the public domain, to support my point of view.TOPPING said:
Yes good point they were criminals, officially according to HMG. And to HMF for that matter, which I do recall you saying you were a member of.HurstLlama said:
Mr. Topping, may I please gently take issue with your use of the word, "war". I obviously do not have the personal and family experiences of Northern Ireland and its relationship with the RoI that Mr. Brooke does. None the less it did occupy a great chunk of my adult life, about twenty years worth, so I have some first hand experience.TOPPING said:
ah! oops. Apols. In the heat of the moment I forgot you are in this country (makes a change from talking to Leavers who are 5,000 miles away..)
I disagree about the "not so pissed off" bit, though. Didn't the Met just increase the security alert for Irish terrorism. As you will know, and as your family will attest, the war is not over for those who are fighting it, no matter how many battles they lose, and the reimposition of border controls would act as a strong recruiting sergeant.
PIRA and the associated organisations, on both sides, were never fighting a war, Criminal gangsterism, aimed as much at self enrichment and securing control over certain communities as anything else, yes, but a war it certainly was not.
But I think it faintly absurd not to acknowledge the motivation of the participants who see themselves as part of the same struggle in an unbroken line from Cathal Brugha et al onwards.0 -
Which way will Michael Green be voting?weejonnie said:
4 votes actually.CarlottaVance said:@stephentall: You can see why Leave are crying foul over #EUref voter fraud. Grant Shapps coming out for Remain gives them 2 extra votes.
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The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.MaxPB said:
Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?williamglenn said:
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/0 -
There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.John_N4 said:The Remain % in NI could be around 80%. In GB it could be close to 50%.
If in GB it's 49 point something %, then the overall figure will be above 50% and NI will have caused Britain to stay in the EU. This isn't fanciful - it could easily be what happens.
That would be a remarkable result, given that whereas the Irish border is more or less completely open, the same is NOT true for travellers between GB and NI.
You need to show photo ID and people driving vans are quite often searched using metal detectors, as are their vehicles, on arrival on one side of the water or the other, even though all they have done is travel within a sovereign country without crossing any international borders.
NI people who are strongly in favour of the openness of the international border in Ireland but who aren't so bothered about pseudo-border checks on people travelling between NI and GB should (but mostly don't) favour a united Ireland. Then they'd get what they want (the line on the ground that they care about most would be as they want it - open) and GB people would get what they want (GB borders would not be open).0 -
@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"0
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I think you are right and I think I am right. There were and are elements of both ideological and criminal intent in PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, INLA, EEA, etc.HurstLlama said:
Alas Mr. Topping, that sort of line was used to entice recruits, in the reality the motivation, especially of the men towards the top, was very different. There is, I think, enough in the public domain, to support my point of view.TOPPING said:
Yes good point they were criminals, officially according to HMG. And to HMF for that matter, which I do recall you saying you were a member of.HurstLlama said:
Mr. Topping, may I please gently take issue with your use of the word, "war". I obviously do not have the personal and family experiences of Northern Ireland and its relationship with the RoI that Mr. Brooke does. None the less it did occupy a great chunk of my adult life, about twenty years worth, so I have some first hand experience.TOPPING said:
ah! oops. Apols. In the heat of the moment I forgot you are in this country (makes a change from talking to Leavers who are 5,000 miles away..)
I disagree about the "not so pissed off" bit, though. Didn't the Met just increase the security alert for Irish terrorism. As you will know, and as your family will attest, the war is not over for those who are fighting it, no matter how many battles they lose, and the reimposition of border controls would act as a strong recruiting sergeant.
PIRA and the associated organisations, on both sides, were never fighting a war, Criminal gangsterism, aimed as much at self enrichment and securing control over certain communities as anything else, yes, but a war it certainly was not.
But I think it faintly absurd not to acknowledge the motivation of the participants who see themselves as part of the same struggle in an unbroken line from Cathal Brugha et al onwards.0 -
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There's no point in Leave turning up to a gunfight armed with a knife.Casino_Royale said:
You think it's disgusting for Leave to try and win it using their strongest card of immigration.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
Glasshouses. Stones.0 -
Sort of self defeating isn't it ?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.
Lying Tory bastards etc.0 -
Actually if we leave along with the other non-EMU nations it clears a lot of the obstacles for them.williamglenn said:
The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.MaxPB said:
Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?williamglenn said:
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/0 -
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That's a point of view but it doesn't seem to me to suggest an alternative to the EU. It's a case of, this is crap we want out.MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model. None of that is right for the UK and yet we have a veto over all of those measures which means they will never be implemented while we are in the EU. It is better for us to leave and get out of their way and they can get out of our way.FF43 said:
Thanks. If there is a two speed EU wouldn't that remove some of the stresses in the EU and make alternatives less attractive? And also counteract claims that remaining in the EU implies greater integration down the line?MaxPB said:
Pushing the idea of single global goods standards via the WTO is what we need to do. Sector by sector we need to work on breaking down NTBs and introducing minimum export standards for WTO trade. Much better than regional trade deals.FF43 said:To some extent there was a similar competition earlier between EFTA and the EEC, which the EEC won comprehensively.
I think your idea is an interesting one, with the caveat that it is not a reason to vote Out. There is unlikely to be any demand for an alternative to the EU any time soon. However if you are voting Out anyway, it's a good long term thing to do.
Standardisation has a value, which is why the EU has developed as it has. For the same there aren't any alternative organisations to the UN and NATO. The business case for the alternative arrangement is that the EU is in such a big crisis that it obliterates the value of standardisation. The risk of the EU collapsing is high enough to consider alternatives (your proposal), but not high enough to affect our decision making (don't switch from In to Out on the assumption thar it will happen)
As for EFTA, the landscape has changed, there is now a two speed EU, the EMU and non-EMU nations. Having a one size fits all solution to two groups of countries with different agendas and economies makes no sense.
Incidentally, I disagree with your analysis that we are "holding the Eurozone countries back". I am pretty sure they are holding themselves back. No government, especially the German and French ones, wants further integration or to weaken their nation states. That big push has run its course. If you are a pessimist you could say it's stasis and an unsustainable situation. If you are an optimist you could say that integration has gone as far as it can and it will settle on the equilibrium.0 -
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
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You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.0 -
NatCen's Northern Ireland sample in February this year were 75% Remain. But their 64% Remain figure for Scotland was ridiculous, so perhaps you are right.Sean_F said:
There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.John_N4 said:The Remain % in NI could be around 80%. In GB it could be close to 50%.
If in GB it's 49 point something %, then the overall figure will be above 50% and NI will have caused Britain to stay in the EU. This isn't fanciful - it could easily be what happens.
That would be a remarkable result, given that whereas the Irish border is more or less completely open, the same is NOT true for travellers between GB and NI.
You need to show photo ID and people driving vans are quite often searched using metal detectors, as are their vehicles, on arrival on one side of the water or the other, even though all they have done is travel within a sovereign country without crossing any international borders.
NI people who are strongly in favour of the openness of the international border in Ireland but who aren't so bothered about pseudo-border checks on people travelling between NI and GB should (but mostly don't) favour a united Ireland. Then they'd get what they want (the line on the ground that they care about most would be as they want it - open) and GB people would get what they want (GB borders would not be open).0 -
Which brings us back to my first comment. If there were no obstacles from non Eurozone countries, do you think Germany would be in a rush to make it happen in that way?MaxPB said:
Actually if we leave along with the other non-EMU nations it clears a lot of the obstacles for them.williamglenn said:
The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.MaxPB said:
Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?williamglenn said:
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/0 -
That doesn't surprise me at all. Not necessarily true but I can believe it.NickPalmer said:
There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?0 -
The DUP are pretty much pro-LEAVE, but I guess the UUP, Alliance, as well as the Nationalist SDLP and SF are all pro-REMAIN.Sean_F said:
There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.John_N4 said:The Remain % in NI could be around 80%. In GB it could be close to 50%.
If in GB it's 49 point something %, then the overall figure will be above 50% and NI will have caused Britain to stay in the EU. This isn't fanciful - it could easily be what happens.
That would be a remarkable result, given that whereas the Irish border is more or less completely open, the same is NOT true for travellers between GB and NI.
You need to show photo ID and people driving vans are quite often searched using metal detectors, as are their vehicles, on arrival on one side of the water or the other, even though all they have done is travel within a sovereign country without crossing any international borders.
NI people who are strongly in favour of the openness of the international border in Ireland but who aren't so bothered about pseudo-border checks on people travelling between NI and GB should (but mostly don't) favour a united Ireland. Then they'd get what they want (the line on the ground that they care about most would be as they want it - open) and GB people would get what they want (GB borders would not be open).0 -
I've met Philip Lee. Genuine down-to-earth guy, also a GP, but not a rebel.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
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More recent polling has been tighter. I would expect to see 75-80% of Unionists vote Leave together with 10% of Non-Unionists.John_N4 said:
NatCen's Northern Ireland sample in February this year were 75% Remain. But their 64% Remain figure for Scotland was ridiculous, so perhaps you are right.Sean_F said:
There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.John_N4 said:The Remain % in NI could be around 80%. In GB it could be close to 50%.
If in GB it's 49 point something %, then the overall figure will be above 50% and NI will have caused Britain to stay in the EU. This isn't fanciful - it could easily be what happens.
That would be a remarkable result, given that whereas the Irish border is more or less completely open, the same is NOT true for travellers between GB and NI.
You need to show photo ID and people driving vans are quite often searched using metal detectors, as are their vehicles, on arrival on one side of the water or the other, even though all they have done is travel within a sovereign country without crossing any international borders.
NI people who are strongly in favour of the openness of the international border in Ireland but who aren't so bothered about pseudo-border checks on people travelling between NI and GB should (but mostly don't) favour a united Ireland. Then they'd get what they want (the line on the ground that they care about most would be as they want it - open) and GB people would get what they want (GB borders would not be open).0 -
And yet on June 24th the publication of the long awaited EU military integration policy is going to be released. You say that the EU nations don't want further integration, yet their actions and words say otherwise. The UK is one of only a few countries that doesn't want to head down the superstate road. I'll agree that the ordinary German or Frenchman doesn't want to be in the superstate, but in Germany the major parties support it, in France likewise. The people aren't going to be given a chance to vote against it, not after what happened last time in France and the Netherlands (two of the most pro-EU countries at the time).FF43 said:
That's a point of view but it doesn't seem to me to suggest an alternative to the EU. It's a case of, this is crap we want out.MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model. None of that is right for the UK and yet we have a veto over all of those measures which means they will never be implemented while we are in the EU. It is better for us to leave and get out of their way and they can get out of our way.FF43 said:
Thanks. If there is a two speed EU wouldn't that remove some of the stresses in the EU and make alternatives less attractive? And also counteract claims that remaining in the EU implies greater integration down the line?MaxPB said:
Pushing the idea of single global goods standards via the WTO is what we need to do. Sector by sector we need to work on breaking down NTBs and introducing minimum export standards for WTO trade. Much better than regional trade deals.FF43 said:To some extent there was a similar competition earlier between EFTA and the EEC, which the EEC won comprehensively.
I think your idea is an interesting one, with the caveat that it is not a reason to vote Out. There is unlikely to be any demand for an alternative to the EU any time soon. However if you are voting Out anyway, it's a good long term thing to do.
Standardisation has a value, which is why the EU has developed as it has. For the same there aren't any alternative organisations to the UN and NATO. The business case for the alternative arrangement is that the EU is in such a big crisis that it obliterates the value of standardisation. The risk of the EU collapsing is high enough to consider alternatives (your proposal), but not high enough to affect our decision making (don't switch from In to Out on the assumption thar it will happen)
As for EFTA, the landscape has changed, there is now a two speed EU, the EMU and non-EMU nations. Having a one size fits all solution to two groups of countries with different agendas and economies makes no sense.
Incidentally, I disagree with your analysis that we are "holding the Eurozone countries back". I am pretty sure they are holding themselves back. No government, especially the German and French ones, wants further integration or to weaken their nation states. That big push has run its course. If you are a pessimist you could say it's stasis and an unsustainable situation. If you are an optimist you could say that integration has gone as far as it can and it will settle on the equilibrium.0 -
Yes, yes, but who has time for that when there's another Dragon Age installment coming?HYUFD said:
You can also get porn on tap too after a few clicks0 -
Scott_P said:
@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
So instead of dead cats, No. 10 is throwing live rabbits on the table.
0 -
MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?Indigo said:
You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.
Stop taking those hyperbole pills0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?Indigo said:
You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.
I must stop taking those hyperbole pills
0 -
Yes. but is his team of lawyers going with him?Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.0
-
Casino_Royale said:
I've met Philip Lee. Genuine down-to-earth guy, also a GP, but not a rebel.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
cynically co-ordinated, dubious whether any were ever going to vote otherwise, still effective (since Wollaston, an actual defector, "led" them).MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
So instead of dead cats, No. 10 is throwing live rabbits on the table.0 -
Stodge is a pro-Leave Lib Dem.FrankBooth said:I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.
0 -
I don't recall any polls in what feels like a while, are there some due soon?0
-
Yes, they are forging ahead with the military integration as soon as the referendum is done, the tax harmonisation will be pushed at an EMU level where we don't have a veto and Germany is at a disadvantage to Ireland, Netherlands and Luxembourg. Within the next 20 years the EU will create a treasury and give itself direct taxation powers, faster if we vote to leave given that the UK vetoed it the last time it came up.williamglenn said:
Which brings us back to my first comment. If there were no obstacles from non Eurozone countries, do you think Germany would be in a rush to make it happen in that way?MaxPB said:
Actually if we leave along with the other non-EMU nations it clears a lot of the obstacles for them.williamglenn said:
The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.MaxPB said:
Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?williamglenn said:
Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?MaxPB said:
That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/0 -
It works once, as demonstrated by the coverage of Woolaston today. If defectors look like they're doing it out of self interest then the story will quickly move on.Alanbrooke said:
Sort of self defeating isn't it ?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.
Lying Tory bastards etc.
Unless of course it's one of the big names, someone who was supposed to be in one of the TV set pieces etc.
0 -
There has been lots of polls over the past 10 years that showed a significant percentage of Lib Dem voters (at GE), actually saying they were going to vote UKIP in Euro elections.FrankBooth said:I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.
0 -
Phil Parkinson set to be named Bolton boss
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/14547398.Phil_Parkinson_set_to_be_named_Bolton_boss/#comments-anchor
FFS.0 -
.
You are the one who continues to imply that any of the shameful behaviour of the PM is acceptable because he is trying to win the referendum. I like to assume your limit for piss poor behaviour is somewhat on this side of blowing up Leave HQ, but is doesn't soon like its all that far this side of it.TheScreamingEagles said:
MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?Indigo said:
You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.
Stop taking those hyperbole pills 0 -
When Wollaston defected, it was possible to give her the benefit of the doubt, and believe that it was a genuine change of heart. But Remain have over-egged it, and with all of the follow-on announcements of new Remainers, it was clear that she was part of the plan. Pathetic.Sandpit said:
It works once, as demonstrated by the coverage of Woolaston today. If defectors look like they're doing it out of self interest then the story will quickly move on.Alanbrooke said:
Sort of self defeating isn't it ?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.
Lying Tory bastards etc.
Unless of course it's one of the big names, someone who was supposed to be in one of the TV set pieces etc.0 -
It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.0 -
The plebs won't buy it.Luckyguy1983 said:
It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
It's clearly aimed at Tory-leaning waiverers rather than plebs. Let's just pray they don't buy it either.tlg86 said:
The plebs won't buy it.Luckyguy1983 said:
It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
Not for the first time Remain have overplayed their hand.SandyRentool said:
When Wollaston defected, it was possible to give her the benefit of the doubt, and believe that it was a genuine change of heart. But Remain have over-egged it, and with all of the follow-on announcements of new Remainers, it was clear that she was part of the plan. Pathetic.Sandpit said:
It works once, as demonstrated by the coverage of Woolaston today. If defectors look like they're doing it out of self interest then the story will quickly move on.Alanbrooke said:
Sort of self defeating isn't it ?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.
Lying Tory bastards etc.
Unless of course it's one of the big names, someone who was supposed to be in one of the TV set pieces etc.0 -
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.0 -
Yes, mass timed defections now just look cynical and make Wollaston look unprincipled. Not sure this is gong to be as helpful as the Remain side want it to be.
Leave need Boris to have the night of his life tonight, surrounded by 6 women, he might just do it.0 -
@JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z20
-
Not forgetting Kate Hoey, she reaches the parts that Hannan and Gove won't.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
Really good article on the left wing case against the EU
http://heatst.com/uk/kate-hoey-the-left-wing-case-for-brexit/0 -
We need more immigrants.Scott_P said:@JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z2
0 -
I wonder what Hannan makes of Vote Leave's focus on immigration, to be honest.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.0 -
I probably overstated my case. I agree there will be some consolidation and some further opt-in integration. But a superstate won't happen any time soon. And that's a problem for the EU because it is a half-way house. So then you have to decide whether that's good because no-one has ever got this far before or bad because it's half-baked.MaxPB said:
And yet on June 24th the publication of the long awaited EU military integration policy is going to be released. You say that the EU nations don't want further integration, yet their actions and words say otherwise. The UK is one of only a few countries that doesn't want to head down the superstate road. I'll agree that the ordinary German or Frenchman doesn't want to be in the superstate, but in Germany the major parties support it, in France likewise. The people aren't going to be given a chance to vote against it, not after what happened last time in France and the Netherlands (two of the most pro-EU countries at the time).0 -
Can only benefit the gene pool really.Scott_P said:@JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z2
0 -
Yes, hopefully Boris has read this and stays relentlessly positive tonight and puts across a positive vision for what the UK would be like once it becomes independent of the EU. Taking back control means so many things, to relentlessly focus on immigration would be a mistake IMO, we need to make the economic case for leaving. Hopefully Andrew Lillico has been coaching him over the last few days.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.0 -
Have you not seen idiocracy?Luckyguy1983 said:Can only benefit the gene pool really.
0 -
I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats."0 -
But it wouldn't be if we left along with the two other permanent non-EMU nations. They would be free to go as far as they want at whatever speed they want. If we are in the EU we will veto absolutely everything, especially if it is a close vote. If the UK PM allows the creation of an EU military run from Brussels we all need to start betting on UKIP most seats in 2020.FF43 said:
I probably overstated my case. I agree there will be some consolidation and some further opt-in integration. But a superstate won't happen any time soon. And that's a problem for the EU because it is a half-way house. So then you have to decide whether that's good because no-one has ever got this far before or bad because it's half-baked.MaxPB said:
And yet on June 24th the publication of the long awaited EU military integration policy is going to be released. You say that the EU nations don't want further integration, yet their actions and words say otherwise. The UK is one of only a few countries that doesn't want to head down the superstate road. I'll agree that the ordinary German or Frenchman doesn't want to be in the superstate, but in Germany the major parties support it, in France likewise. The people aren't going to be given a chance to vote against it, not after what happened last time in France and the Netherlands (two of the most pro-EU countries at the time).0 -
Nope.Scott_P said:
Have you not seen idiocracy?Luckyguy1983 said:Can only benefit the gene pool really.
0 -
Andrew Mitchell is my MP. He's been sitting firmly on the fence, but says he'll make a decision one way or the other after the debate in our town hall this Saturday. The panel is Nigel Farage, Gisela Stewart, Michael Heseltine and Paddy Ashdown. I wanted to go it, but the tickets sold out between 8:00 and 8:05 on Monday a couple of weeks ago. All bought up by pensioners and the politically engaged with time to queue and no school run or work to get to on a Monday morning. I expect a very eurosceptic audience!Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
Just been looking at Sarah Wollaston's voting record. TBH, I'm surprised she ever supported Leave - she appears almost always to have voted in favour of measures which would extend the power and reach of the EU and its institutions (when not absent from votes).
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes/divisions?policy=10650 -
No! He should stand on the barricades and sing, "I dreamed a dream".Sean_F said:
I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats." 0 -
I was re-elected in my ward in May, and one thing we noticed was that UKIP prior canvass were coming over to us in big numbers. This includes the lovely couple who signed my nomination papers as proposer and seconder!FrancisUrquhart said:
There has been lots of polls over the past 10 years that showed a significant percentage of Lib Dem voters (at GE), actually saying they were going to vote UKIP in Euro elections.FrankBooth said:I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.
0 -
Probably not a lot, but understands the need to appeal to all demographics in a referendum campaign.TheWhiteRabbit said:
I wonder what Hannan makes of Vote Leave's focus on immigration, to be honest.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
I love his opening debate line that he would like to be made redundant, has any politician ever said that before?0 -
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
0 -
HA!
@paulwaugh: Battle to replace Ken Livingstone on Labour's NEC has reignited. @rheawolfson switching CLP to qualify for election: https://t.co/MRGQimJoSP0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IdiocracyLuckyguy1983 said:
Nope.Scott_P said:
Have you not seen idiocracy?Luckyguy1983 said:Can only benefit the gene pool really.
0 -
Just keep Mitchell away from a policeman.Luckyguy1983 said:
It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
Lol!Sean_F said:
I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Absolutely.Sandpit said:Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/
More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats."0 -
The fact is that most of the regular Lib Dems that have their writings posted on LibDemBlogs assume that all Lib Dem activists are for REMAIN. The reality on the ground is different and I know of one who has delivered more than 700 LEAVE leaflets since the campaign started. It is primarily about immigration.FrankBooth said:I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.
0 -
TCPoliticalBetting said:
Just keep Mitchell away from a policeman.Luckyguy1983 said:
It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
Andrew Mitchell is canny enough to hold on until the last minute to see what No 10 would offer.0 -
If it's like the one I went to last week, then it'll be a lot of yelling Leavers who'll try to stop the panel speaking quite a bit by shouting out 'liar' and 'what about migration?" every few minutes.FeersumEnjineeya said:
Andrew Mitchell is my MP. He's been sitting firmly on the fence, but says he'll make a decision one way or the other after the debate in our town hall this Saturday. The panel is Nigel Farage, Gisela Stewart, Michael Heseltine and Paddy Ashdown. I wanted to go it, but the tickets sold out between 8:00 and 8:05 on Monday a couple of weeks ago. All bought up by pensioners and the politically engaged with time to queue and no school run or work to get to on a Monday morning. I expect a very eurosceptic audience!Sean_F said:
Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?Scott_P said:@MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
0 -
Into convincing people to switch?Casino_Royale said:
I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.CarlottaVance said:Sarah Wollaston tells ITV News: Other MPs considering defecting from Vote Leave
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-tells-itv-news-other-mps-considering-defecting-from-vote-leave/
Disgusting.
Wasn't there a Ppc at the general election who complained about opponents trying to convince people too?0 -
That almost made some sense to me, simp,y by virtue of if they are communicating electronically they may meet up less and spontaneous events are less likely.NickPalmer said:
There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.HurstLlama said:
Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"PlatoSaid said:
Ha! It's certainly got things going in a way I never expected. I'm news-ed out today and watching pulp TV for light relief.
Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?
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More lies , the staffing levels are at their highest ever, what book of porkies did you get that one from. Education spending increased but spent on real education , not knitting and sewing classes for old Tories.CarlottaVance said:
The SNP have shrunk, relative to England & Wales, spending on both Health & Education - all the things they accuse the Tories of wanting to do, they've done themselves....david_herdson said:
In what way is 'big state' right-wing?CarlottaVance said:
Anyone who thinks Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP are 'left wing' hasn't been paying attention:midwinter said:
My point is that Tory voting remainers such as myself are going to find it very hard to support a left wing ScotTheWhiteRabbit said:
Sturgeon was an impressive performer in the GE debates. Obviously she has to be careful about lecturing the English - definitely plenty of pitfalls there - but the risk is so blindly obvious I assume she was twigged.midwinter said:
Sturgeon won't help Remain in England. Especially not against Boris.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It will continue all day and be worse by 10.00pm as the ITV 2 hour debate featuring Sturgeon v Boris is beamed to the Nation with Sarah Wollaston's incendiary intervention being played big time by Nicola. This is not going awayBrom said:
i do agree. it's not discussed on any forums i read, not mentioned in the workplace. Will it still be the headline by the 10 o clock news? the BBC might be leading with it, but it's a slow news day. I just can't see the public who do hear about the story believe her reasoning.Wanderer said:Outstanding betting opportunity this morning.
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
Free University Education for the Middle Classes at the expense of the poor
Free prescriptions for the rich at the expense of council services
McStasi State Snooper for every child
Its a right wing wet dream......0 -
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