The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
"It is not clear that the Common Travel Area could continue to operate with the UK outside the EU, and Ireland inside, in the same way that it did before both countries joined the EU in 1973."
The Wollaston defection could prove ruinous for Leave in the following way. While some Leavers base their position on reason, for many, especially since the cult of the later Thatcher, being a euro-sceptic has simply been a condition of being right-wing. If people start looking at Wollaston and thinking 'do I actually believe this guff or am I just doing what I think's expected of me?' then the cult aspect of Leave could start to crumble. Leave can't afford that.
bad news for you then, Wollaston already knocked off the news cycle for Libya and Blair/Major joint campaigning!
I hope we see as much of Blair as possible over the next two weeks.
I wonder what the UK families of those whose relatives died or were damaged as a result of Blair's lies on Iraq, feel when they see the reason why the Chilcott publication was delayed to allow Blair the freedom to campaign for REMAIN?
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
Yes, as I said, they are working to move this back onto their strength of a political turf war rather than an argument about the issues. When the discussion was about the real issues of leaving or staying in the EU, leave were winning. Downing Street have obviously seen this as well and are panicking to turn it back into a mudslinging match which they can easily win.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
Precisely.
I'm old enough to remember when there were border checks, mostly to stop smuggling it took about 2 minutes to clear both sides.
LOL
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
We would be out of it, but negotiate a free trade deal which wouldn't include free movement of people.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
Pointless scaremongering.
you really havent a clue on NI.
I don't have a GCSE in it, if that's what you mean.
(GPMG perhaps..)
You have no feel for how the people there see things.
Twathead english politicians using NI for their own purposes isn't going to motivate anyone.
All the Prods hate Blair and all the catholics are suspicious of a Tory, so a joint team of the least trsuted politicians out selling a turd in a box is just a really stupid idea.
I must thank you and others for the very amusing and very lengthy spat over border issues from last week.
It popped up elsewhere and I used your argument to smack it down. PB can be very helpful and entertaining at the same time
The maddest piece of info I saw last week was one of the Remainers claiming the Belfast Dublin motorway would have to have border checks.
Given there isn't a motorway between Belfast and Dublin this would require HMG to build 25 miles of motorway first so they could put in the border post.
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
Whatever you want. I believe it is access to the European Countries on a preferential basis - whether that is EEA, EFTA or a combination of the two is to be negotiated.
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
Vote Remain keeps Farage in a job. Leave makes him redundant.
No, he just shifts to "Outrageous betrayal of the voters by ageeing to stay in the EEA with free movement".
MEMBERS of the public have told politicians they will not settle for anything less than living in a small village surrounded by a high wall.
During a TV debate audience members said Brexit did not go far enough and demanded to live in settlements of a few dozen people enclosed by walls with spikes to repel ‘outsiders’....
Pensioner Mary Fisher agreed: “I’d like to live in a village with a wall because I’ve chosen to ignore obvious problems like no electricity and the fact that we’d all die.
“There’s nothing wrong with wanting to live with people who are like you. Except Linda from the bingo, obviously. She’s a two-faced cow and I’d dob her in for being a witch.”
Are we getting close to the angst of SIndy? I don't think so yet - but with two weeks of this to go, I'm beginning to wonder.
No, all hell will break loose when we vote to Remain and the EU continues to pursue an integrationist agenda. An awful lot has been held back until June 24th. I wonder what excuse the Eurofanatics will come up with.
They won't need an excuse. A Bart Simpsonesque ha ha suckers will suffice.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
Vote Remain keeps Farage in a job. Leave makes him redundant.
No, he just shifts to "Outrageous betrayal of the voters by ageeing to stay in the EEA with free movement".
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
An awful lot of people would like to know the answer to that one!
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
We would be out of it, but negotiate a free trade deal which wouldn't include free movement of people.
Make sure to say that very quickly and get onto immigration!
The Wollaston defection could prove ruinous for Leave in the following way. While some Leavers base their position on reason, for many, especially since the cult of the later Thatcher, being a euro-sceptic has simply been a condition of being right-wing. If people start looking at Wollaston and thinking 'do I actually believe this guff or am I just doing what I think's expected of me?' then the cult aspect of Leave could start to crumble. Leave can't afford that.
bad news for you then, Wollaston already knocked off the news cycle for Libya and Blair/Major joint campaigning!
I hope we see as much of Blair as possible over the next two weeks.
Me too - I had to switch him off earlier.
Of course you used to vote for him - what judgement!
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
Precisely.
I'm old enough to remember when there were border checks, mostly to stop smuggling it took about 2 minutes to clear both sides.
LOL
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
Pre troubles the North and Republic had different duty rates the smuggling worked both ways. My rellies down south used to bring us poteen laced with cold tea to make it look like whiskey in duty paid whiskey bottles.
Things got more fun when the EU intervened since there was a lot of money to be made smuggling livestock so your dizzy cow comment hits the mark. farmers used to expolit holes in the subsidy regime and claim the EU slaughter premium on both sided of the border some claiming the same beasts had been slaughtered a couple of times over.
As for open borders there always were. In the troubles there were official crossing points for legit businesses ( always a spot check only ) but in the country areas there were still lots of small backroads where the only way you knew you had crossed the border was when the road signs changed.
[snip] Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
There is always some alternative, though I suspect that the belief among many in Brussels, certainly with Juncker, is that there isn't - and that is indeed a problem. There isn't currently a rival organisation, it's true, and absent multiple seccessions or a collapse of the EU, there won't be. But both those possibilities could come to pass and a less arrogant EU leadership would be looking to head it off.
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
In the unlikely event that there's anyone here in the Nottingham area with nothing better to do, I'm speaking for Remain this evening from 715 at West Brigford Methodist Church.
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
A-ha. More evidence.
The Government are trying to stall and prevent Leave from gaining any more momentum. The media love defector stories and this helps change the narrative.
Watch what Remain are doing, not what they claim.
but I don't see Vote Leave trying hard enough to get in the news.
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
We would be out of it, but negotiate a free trade deal which wouldn't include free movement of people.
Of course we would and then we'd renegotiate bringing the USA back into the empire easypeasy!
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
@paulwaugh: Several ToryMPs say Govt whips pressuring em to defect - saying "you don't want to be associated with Farage's view of Britain". No10 panic?
Not sure it spells panic. If Remain are going to lose, switching would be a bad idea career wise
Vote Remain keeps Farage in a job. Leave makes him redundant.
No, he just shifts to "Outrageous betrayal of the voters by ageeing to stay in the EEA with free movement".
Well quite - omg I'm agreeing with NPXMP again - a sign of just how unreal the Leave campaign has become.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
I think you've, perhaps inadvertently, made a good point for Remain there.
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
Socrates @suttonnick I have a friend who works in Cabinet Office. She's been offered a ministerial position for this in the coming reshuffle.
Are you offering odds?
I am.
If we vote Remain I make Woolaston 1/33 to be a minister in a reshuffle.
If we vote Leave 33/1.
Let me know how much you want.
Ah, but are you offering 14/1 on Woolaston not to be a minister if we vote Remain?
That's a fair question so yes, you can have 14s, deadline end of 2016.
I'll have £25 on that (or less if you prefer).
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25 If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350 If Leave wins, bet void
I watched Blair last weekend on that new programme with Emily Maitlis, he was talking about how Islamists are the worlds biggest threat (not Brexit lol!), he is still very, very good at this stuff. He spoke convincingly about the subject and said it how it was, that yes Islamists might only make up a couple of percent of the global Muslim population, but that is still a number in the many millions. He also used some of the Pew research about sympathy and attitudes towards Islamists within the moderates, again showing that even though only 20% have sympathy for the Islamist agenda and 80% don't, 20% is still hundreds of millions of people.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
All passengers on internal flights are screened before mainland UK, it's the same on the ferries.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
Lunch at Lord's. The first hour better than the second for England. 74/3 the score, 13.5 the Betfair price on the visitors winning for anyone who missed the 36 that was there 90 minutes ago!
@IsabelOakeshott: I'm told @grantshapps will be next significant Westminster figure to declare for Remain. Acc to sources he wants to do so without a big fuss
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
He wouldn't get a national insurance number for one so would have to work illegally. There's also nothing stopping him flying directly from Bucharest and working illegally, no need to go through Dublin and Belfast!
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
Nothing unless we close the NI border with the UK - oh the irony - Gerry Adams would be ectatic
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Your friends sound more interesting than mine
I know we're too far apart to ever meet on this, but this idea that leaving somehow means we're looking globally seems bananas to me. Leaving is just that, Cameron's now using the word 'quitting' whenever he can - quite rightly. There's no other regional grouping who we could join, so it is a choice to go our own way. I can see the attractions from sovereignty (and at least understand them on immigration) but I can't see how leaving would somehow create the environment for an alternative grouping to emerge.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
All passengers on internal flights are screened before mainland UK, it's the same on the ferries.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
And once he gets here he would be in the country illegally so would not be able to work or claim benefits.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
Pointless scaremongering.
you really havent a clue on NI.
I don't have a GCSE in it, if that's what you mean.
(GPMG perhaps..)
You have no feel for how the people there see things.
Twathead english politicians using NI for their own purposes isn't going to motivate anyone.
All the Prods hate Blair and all the catholics are suspicious of a Tory, so a joint team of the least trsuted politicians out selling a turd in a box is just a really stupid idea.
I must thank you and others for the very amusing and very lengthy spat over border issues from last week.
It popped up elsewhere and I used your argument to smack it down. PB can be very helpful and entertaining at the same time
The maddest piece of info I saw last week was one of the Remainers claiming the Belfast Dublin motorway would have to have border checks.
Given there isn't a motorway between Belfast and Dublin this would require HMG to build 25 miles of motorway first so they could put in the border post.
Semantics. The road between the capitals is almost all been upgraded to motorway now, and the bits that aren't are as near as dammit. The point is a good one.
@TelePolitics: How the Sarah Wollaston conspiracy theory proves David Cameron is a political genius https://t.co/hoVbIivBGIhttps://t.co/TId4uGLnvr “Ah, Sarah,” he says. “Do sit down. I’ve got a job for you. I want you to spend the next six years criticising me, my policies and my circle more or less relentlessly. Then, in the middle of a referendum that it hasn’t yet occurred to me to hold, you can give me an unexpected boost by switching sides! And because you’ll have criticised me more or less relentlessly for the previous six years, no one will suspect that you’re actually my stooge! Except of course for the dazzlingly perceptive Nadine Dorries, who will expose the whole thing, but never mind, there’s nothing we can do about that, she’s just too damned smart.”
You see. When you look at it like that, it all makes perfect sense.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
All passengers on internal flights are screened before mainland UK, it's the same on the ferries.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
Lol - so they'll just stay in NI - is that 'cruel and unusual punishment'?
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
Precisely.
I'm old enough to remember when there were border checks, mostly to stop smuggling it took about 2 minutes to clear both sides.
LOL
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
Pre troubles the North and Republic had different duty rates the smuggling worked both ways. My rellies down south used to bring us poteen laced with cold tea to make it look like whiskey in duty paid whiskey bottles.
Things got more fun when the EU intervened since there was a lot of money to be made smuggling livestock so your dizzy cow comment hits the mark. farmers used to expolit holes in the subsidy regime and claim the EU slaughter premium on both sided of the border some claiming the same beasts had been slaughtered a couple of times over.
As for open borders there always were. In the troubles there were official crossing points for legit businesses ( always a spot check only ) but in the country areas there were still lots of small backroads where the only way you knew you had crossed the border was when the road signs changed.
Indeed, and my point was that in theory there was not an open border, although in practice there was nothing to be done and the border was not able to be policed in its entirety.
As my last link showed is possible, the CTA may be amended and if we went back to that situation you describe, then that would have implications for, as Hugh Order noted, for the security situation.
@IsabelOakeshott: I'm told @grantshapps will be next significant Westminster figure to declare for Remain. Acc to sources he wants to do so without a big fuss
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
I think you've, perhaps inadvertently, made a good point for Remain there.
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
Leadership is about taking the first step, to fight for what you believe is right.
"Never do something because everyone else is doing it. Stand up for what you think is right and then convince them to follow your lead instead" - Thatcher
If this referendum campaign has shown anything, it's shown that you (despite agreeing with 99/% of what I said on my blog, your own words) clearly don't have it within yourself to do that.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
All passengers on internal flights are screened before mainland UK, it's the same on the ferries.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
And once he gets here he would be in the country illegally so would not be able to work or claim benefits.
This is the point. Too many Remainers just don't understand how the social security system impacts immigration. Continental systems aren't as profligate on how they hand out NI numbers as HMG. As a result it's big risk just to turn up in a country without any money unless you have a job.
The UK has two choices change its benefit system to a more continental one ( but that will hit many poorer brits ) or find a way of controlling how non-nationals can access the system. Currently the EU doesn't permit the second option.
It does feel a lot like Cameron is throwing everything at this. I think Major on Sunday was the first attempt to turn round remain fortunes which probably had some success, but then after the programme with Farage momentum dropped. Come Friday night football will be on the minds of the masses and he will struggle to get his message across. If we wants to create a lead in the polls he needs to get movement in the next 24 hours and he will be hoping Wollaston has kick started that.
I've been monitoring the facebook likes of both campaigns in the past 2 months and the support levels have had a direct correlation with events as you might expect. Leave had an excellent 10 days up until Sunday when Remain picked up and re-overtook Leave. From Cameron/Farage debate onwards Leave has pulled away but I've noticed that has slowed down a bit today.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
Good point. The 2011 CTA agreement says this: The two governments commit to co-operating to the fullest extent possible to align the list of nationals who are visa required for travel to the two countries. . That obviously is the opposite of what will happen post-Brexit. So while I think both governments would want to continue with it, the stresses in the system may bring it down
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Your friends sound more interesting than mine
I know we're too far apart to ever meet on this, but this idea that leaving somehow means we're looking globally seems bananas to me. Leaving is just that, Cameron's now using the word 'quitting' whenever he can - quite rightly. There's no other regional grouping who we could join, so it is a choice to go our own way. I can see the attractions from sovereignty (and at least understand them on immigration) but I can't see how leaving would somehow create the environment for an alternative grouping to emerge.
I think we'd end up creating a new non-euro non-EU European grouping and compel the EU + eurozone to democratically reform in turn (basic competition) - at the same time we could forge much faster global links than we are currently able to do, as an independent global democratic voice.
I'm very excited about it. And I'm 100% convinced it's the right thing to do.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
He wouldn't get a national insurance number for one so would have to work illegally. There's also nothing stopping him flying directly from Bucharest and working illegally, no need to go through Dublin and Belfast!
He couldn't fly here directly because of passport control. How would he get through immigration checks?
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
I think you've, perhaps inadvertently, made a good point for Remain there.
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
Leadership is about taking the first step, to fight for what you believe is right.
"Never do something because everyone else is doing it. Stand up for what you think is right and then convince them to follow your lead instead" - Thatcher
If this referendum campaign has shown anything, it's shown that you (despite agreeing with 99/% of what I said on my blog, your own words) clearly don't have it within yourself to do that.
I am very disappointed but it's your decision.
I haven't yet decided. There is a fortnight and I expect I won't actually decide until the pencil is in my hand.
The Thatcher quote could equally be used to support Remain. Let's stay in and make the arguments, influence the debate, and push for an EU mark 2 or an Associate Member model, whilst using our time that we stay in to do all we can to ensure the legislation that spouts out from the EU doesn't harm us too much. That would be leadership wouldn't it, not bailing out and walking away.
And yes, I did agree with most of what you said in your excellent blog post (don't think I said 99% to be fair), the one flaw I felt in it was that it assumed we were now at the point of no return and it was now "now or never". I don't think it is.
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Another poster quoted something like this "The EU is for Imperialists who lack self-confidence"
I thought it was spot on. Increasingly, the Remain campaign is sounding very Utilitarian and rather Marxist in its reduction of its citizens to mere economic pawns.
IIRC @Big_G_NorthWales - a strong Remainer described himself as a Utilitarian - that's about as far from my position as possible.
Will be interesting to see if the Blair and Major show this morning does much to appeal to the middle ground voters they both won. Confirms they have more in common with each other than the left and right of their respective parties
@IsabelOakeshott: I'm told @grantshapps will be next significant Westminster figure to declare for Remain. Acc to sources he wants to do so without a big fuss
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
Good point. The 2011 CTA agreement says this: The two governments commit to co-operating to the fullest extent possible to align the list of nationals who are visa required for travel to the two countries. . That obviously is the opposite of what will happen post-Brexit. So while I think both governments would want to continue with it, the stresses in the system may bring it down
Would it be that different though? It's unlikely we'll impose visit visas on EU nationals if we leave the EU. Getting through the border is different to having the right to live and work and claim benefits somewhere.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
And then he is going to try and govern with all those people he brutalised on his backbenches... good luck with that. It won't be about remain or leave by then, it will be personal.
Personally I think the real hilarity is going to be Dodgy Dave tearing his party to pieces, making it so that one half the party can't talk to the other without spitting, so that he can stay in his beloved EU... and then FN win in France and the EU implodes. Failing that, he will lose his majority to the kippers in 2020, 5% of voters moving from the Tories to UKIP and they will win 30 seats, and that's the end of that.
The FN won't win in France.
Juppe leads Le Pen 70:30 in the second round.
Sarkozy head to head more relevant tho!
I find it hard to see why Les Républicains would commit electoral suicide and go for Sarkozy ahead of Juppe.
coughcorbyncough
Actually I think Sarkozy would still beat Hollande in the 1st round, and subsequently beat Le Pen in the second. Sarkozy is a poor choice, but Hollande will lose so much splintering on his left to Greens/Communists etc, that he will come 3rd. The Socialist's need to ditch Hollande to have any chance.
He initially prescribed about 18 different medicines and supplements - a number which had risen to 30 by March 2010. By the end of 2012, Sharapova decided there must be an alternative to taking so many pills and informed the doctor she no longer wished to work with him.
She added a nutritionist to her team, but crucially continued taking three substances recommended by the doctor.
One of those was meldonium, but it was not something Sharapova was keen to publicise. Only her father and agent knew what she was taking.
According to the 29-year-old's own evidence, the only doctor she told - in 2015 - was Dr Sergei Yanitsky of the Russian Olympic team. Her coach, trainer, physiotherapist and nutritionist were not informed. Nor did she tell any of the Women's Tennis Association's medical staff.
Although she declared the use of other medication and vitamins on the past seven doping control forms she completed, she did not declare meldonium.
Knowing somebody who has been involved in British Olympic Elite sports programme, they aren't allowed to have an abnormal shit without telling somebody, and they have it rammed into them day in day out that they are never ever to take anything without informing medical teams, getting it checked out etc etc etc.
The chances of one of the world best tennis players not being repeatedly told you must tell us everything you take, we must check it all out etc etc etc.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
Precisely.
I'm old enough to remember when there were border checks, mostly to stop smuggling it took about 2 minutes to clear both sides.
LOL
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
Pre troubles the North and Republw you had crossed the border was when the road signs changed.
Indeed, and my point was that in theory there was not an open border, although in practice there was nothing to be done and the border was not able to be policed in its entirety.
As my last link showed is possible, the CTA may be amended and if we went back to that situation you describe, then that would have implications for, as Hugh Order noted, for the security situation.
LOL just because it isnt reported on national news do you think there is no security situation now ? This is simply your lack of understanding of how things on the ground actually are.
In any event a review of the Troubles would show that what turned the tide on the paramilitaries wasnt border controls, but infiltration , better intelligence and an agreement between the UK and RoI that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have these people in our societies. The Border was so pourous you could walk across it.
Look up Slab Murphy if you want to see how it's done.
It does feel a lot like Cameron is throwing everything at this. I think Major on Sunday was the first attempt to turn round remain fortunes which probably had some success, but then after the programme with Farage momentum dropped. Come Friday night football will be on the minds of the masses and he will struggle to get his message across. If we wants to create a lead in the polls he needs to get movement in the next 24 hours and he will be hoping Wollaston has kick started that.
I've been monitoring the facebook likes of both campaigns in the past 2 months and the support levels have had a direct correlation with events as you might expect. Leave had an excellent 10 days up until Sunday when Remain picked up and re-overtook Leave. From Cameron/Farage debate onwards Leave has pulled away but I've noticed that has slowed down a bit today.
My Facebook feed is full of previously apolitical 30-40 somethings "liking" or copying pro-remain stuff. Quite surprising, these people really show no general political interest at all online or face to face and based on that I expect a Remain win, possibly quite comfortably.
Not a single pro-Leave thing posted. Just my $0.02
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
It's not worth the effort, he'd just catch a plane to London, where he'd come in as a tourist. We currently offer visa free tourism to the UK from nationals of El Salvador for Christ's sake - there's no reason he couldn't come in as a tourist.
What he wouldn't be able to get is an automatic work permit, and therefore a job. So nobody would employ him.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
I think you've, perhaps inadvertently, made a good point for Remain there.
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
Leadership is about taking the first step, to fight for what you believe is right.
"Never do something because everyone else is doing it. Stand up for what you think is right and then convince them to follow your lead instead" - Thatcher
If this referendum campaign has shown anything, it's shown that you (despite agreeing with 99/% of what I said on my blog, your own words) clearly don't have it within yourself to do that.
I am very disappointed but it's your decision.
I haven't yet decided. There is a fortnight and I expect I won't actually decide until the pencil is in my hand.
The Thatcher quote could equally be used to support Remain. Let's stay in and make the arguments, influence the debate, and push for an EU mark 2 or an Associate Member model, whilst using our time that we stay in to do all we can to ensure the legislation that spouts out from the EU doesn't harm us too much. That would be leadership wouldn't it, not bailing out and walking away.
And yes, I did agree with most of what you said in your excellent blog post (don't think I said 99% to be fair), the one flaw I felt in it was that it assumed we were now at the point of no return and it was now "now or never". I don't think it is.
You will vote Remain. You are looking for any possible reason to rationalise it (and have ceased to be genuinely open-minded and open to reason) despite, at heart, it not quite feeling right for you.
We have spent forty years trying to reform from inside. Cameron just tried to do it (look at how poor a reponse he got to his Bloomberg speech) and that was when we were threatening to Leave with an actual in/out referendum in the offing.
Now, all the EU has left is threats. And this is a decision for decades.
All I can do is to plead with you to look inside yourself and try to find the courage to vote the way that you believe to be right.
You don't want to be regretting your vote for years to come.
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Another poster quoted something like this "The EU is for Imperialists who lack self-confidence"
I thought it was spot on. Increasingly, the Remain campaign is sounding very Utilitarian and rather Marxist in its reduction of its citizens to mere economic pawns.
IIRC @Big_G_NorthWales - a strong Remainer described himself as a Utilitarian - that's about as far from my position as possible.
That was my Sky Eurometer score - not a strong remainer - a eurosceptic remainer as per the Eurometer
It does feel a lot like Cameron is throwing everything at this. I think Major on Sunday was the first attempt to turn round remain fortunes which probably had some success, but then after the programme with Farage momentum dropped. Come Friday night football will be on the minds of the masses and he will struggle to get his message across. If we wants to create a lead in the polls he needs to get movement in the next 24 hours and he will be hoping Wollaston has kick started that.
I've been monitoring the facebook likes of both campaigns in the past 2 months and the support levels have had a direct correlation with events as you might expect. Leave had an excellent 10 days up until Sunday when Remain picked up and re-overtook Leave. From Cameron/Farage debate onwards Leave has pulled away but I've noticed that has slowed down a bit today.
My Facebook feed is full of previously apolitical 30-40 somethings "liking" or copying pro-remain stuff. Quite surprising, these people really show no general political interest at all online or face to face and based on that I expect a Remain win, possibly quite comfortably.
Not a single pro-Leave thing posted. Just my $0.02
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
I think you've, perhaps inadvertently, made a good point for Remain there.
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
Leadership is about taking the first step, to fight for what you believe is right.
"Never do something because everyone else is doing it. Stand up for what you think is right and then convince them to follow your lead instead" - Thatcher
If this referendum campaign has shown anything, it's shown that you (despite agreeing with 99/% of what I said on my blog, your own words) clearly don't have it within yourself to do that.
I am very disappointed but it's your decision.
I haven't yet decided. There is a fortnight and I expect I won't actually decide until the pencil is in my hand.
The Thatcher quote could equally be used to support Remain. Let's stay in and make the arguments, influence the debate, and push for an EU mark 2 or an Associate Member model, whilst using our time that we stay in to do all we can to ensure the legislation that spouts out from the EU doesn't harm us too much. That would be leadership wouldn't it, not bailing out and walking away.
And yes, I did agree with most of what you said in your excellent blog post (don't think I said 99% to be fair), the one flaw I felt in it was that it assumed we were now at the point of no return and it was now "now or never". I don't think it is.
We've done this for 40 years and we've made no headway, in fact we're in a worse position than we've ever been in the EU, the trade figures are shocking, the ECJ is encroaching on our own justice system and there is no way to slam the brakes on. A leave vote would be worth it just to get out from under the yoke of the ECJ. It's taken us 40 years to get another vote on the EU, your assumption that we will get another one any time soon is completely misguided.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Schengen.
Precisely.
I'm old enough to remember when there were border checks, mostly to stop smuggling it took about 2 minutes to clear both sides.
LOL
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
Pre troubles the North and Republw you had crossed the border was when the road signs changed.
Indeed, and my point was that in theory there was not an open border, although in practice there was nothing to be done and the border was not able to be policed in its entirety.
As my last link showed is possible, the CTA may be amended and if we went back to that situation you describe, then that would have implications for, as Hugh Order noted, for the security situation.
LOL just because it isnt reported on national news do you think there is no security situation now ? This is simply your lack of understanding of how things on the ground actually are.
In any event a review of the Troubles would show that what turned the tide on the paramilitaries wasnt border controls, but infiltration , better intelligence and an agreement between the UK and RoI that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have these people in our societies. The Border was so pourous you could walk across it.
Look up Slab Murphy if you want to see how it's done.
I am perfectly aware of the security situation in Northern Ireland today. I am also very aware of the security situation during and after the Troubles.
That does not alter or affect the point I, and Huge Orde, and plenty of others were making. If it turns out that the CTA is amended, that we return to some kind of border controls, it is possible that nationalists may react to this in a negative way.
If you remember the start of this exchange - someone, flippantly, in a you'll-never-believe-what-rubbish-they're-pushing-now way misquoted someone saying that if we leave the EU the IRA will return.
Well, first as I'm sure you are aware, the IRA never went away; but secondly, perhaps you could give your on the ground analysis of how the nationalists might react to there being a border between north and south once more.
This last a genuine question. You are, after all, living there.
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Your friends sound more interesting than mine
I know we're too far apart to ever meet on this, but this idea that leaving somehow means we're looking globally seems bananas to me. Leaving is just that, Cameron's now using the word 'quitting' whenever he can - quite rightly. There's no other regional grouping who we could join, so it is a choice to go our own way. I can see the attractions from sovereignty (and at least understand them on immigration) but I can't see how leaving would somehow create the environment for an alternative grouping to emerge.
I think we'd end up creating a new non-euro non-EU European grouping and compel the EU + eurozone to democratically reform in turn (basic competition) - at the same time we could forge much faster global links than we are currently able to do, as an independent global democratic voice.
I'm very excited about it. And I'm 100% convinced it's the right thing to do.
Sounds wonderful - genuinely.
I just don't believe a word of it. And saying we should leave based on this lovely idea somehow coming to pass - not for me sorry.
@ianbirrell: The Leave campaign looks increasingly indistinguishable from Ukip says @sarahwollaston. Spot-on, to shame of those posing as moderate Tories
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
It's not worth the effort, he'd just catch a plane to London, where he'd come in as a tourist. We currently offer visa free tourism to the UK from nationals of El Salvador for Christ's sake - there's no reason he couldn't come in as a tourist.
What he wouldn't be able to get is an automatic work permit, and therefore a job. So nobody would employ him.
The vision of border controls plays into the hands of those who have yet to realise the armed struggle is over,” wrote Orde. “Any step backwards is a really bad idea.”
EIRE may wish to follow us out but, if not, it may be free movement is retained for the island of Ireland but with border controls for the mainland.
A practical solution will be found, they always are.
The Common Travel Area will be maintained, because:
(a) it would have pretty severe economic consequences on the border communities and (b) it would be extremely expensive to police
Even during the height of the Troubles, when hundreds of British people were being killed every year, the border was kept open. That will not change post-Brexit as Ireland will not join Schengen.
There have been occasions where the UK government has considered suspending the arrangement - but obviously they never did so. I too think it is unlikely after Brexit, which is going to be chaotic enough without adding further to the disruption
So I'm, say, a Romanian who fancies moving to London after Brexit, but doesn't have the points to pass the strict immigration criteria. What do I do?
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
All passengers on internal flights are screened before mainland UK, it's the same on the ferries.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
What's the nature of the "screening" on the ferries? The ferry companies say you don't need a passport, and "advise" you to take some form of identity, but that includes a utility bill. Getting hold of a British or Irish person's utility bill doesn't sound like an impossibly high hurdle.
In practice I think this argument is largely bollocks because so much illegal immigration consists of entering the country for a legal purpose then not leaving, but controlling borders is a core part of the Leave narrative, so it seems fair to point out that control of borders either wouldn't happen or would happen but would have serious adverse consequences in Ireland.
It's increasingly difficult to keep track of what the Tories current position is.
AFAIK there are a baker's dozen of Tory MPs left to declare. I'd expect the vast majority of them to declare for Remain in the next two weeks, except Jesse Norman who has made a virtue of his neutrality and who I think may spoil his ballot.
Sarah Wollaston was one of the MPs who surprised me by backing Leave in the first place (not that I followed her views in detail, but she never struck me as the leaving type.) So not mega-surprised that she's switched. It would have been very easy for her just to keep her head down for the next two weeks though, and our macho-politics derides any uncertainty as a "screeching U-Turn" so good on her. I heard a Vote Leave rep on the radio this morning saying how it showed people were changing their minds both ways as they heard the debate - thought that was probably their best response.
No surprise she's been idolised and demonised this morning, a sign of quite how low the debate has sunk. Can it be, that even among those who've looked into it in detail, it's a balanced decision? It certainly is for me, as I've come to the conclusion that taking our frustrations with the EU out would only damage ourselves. Part of the problem is the EU is a monopoly - it doesn't have to work any better because there is no alternative. Perhaps if the vote is to Remain, the sceptics could put their energy into creating EU 2.0
If we Leave we can provide that alternative.
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
Your friends sound more interesting than mine
I know we're too far apart to ever meet on this, but this idea that leaving somehow means we're looking globally seems bananas to me. Leaving is just that, Cameron's now using the word 'quitting' whenever he can - quite rightly. There's no other regional grouping who we could join, so it is a choice to go our own way. I can see the attractions from sovereignty (and at least understand them on immigration) but I can't see how leaving would somehow create the environment for an alternative grouping to emerge.
I think we'd end up creating a new non-euro non-EU European grouping and compel the EU + eurozone to democratically reform in turn (basic competition) - at the same time we could forge much faster global links than we are currently able to do, as an independent global democratic voice.
I'm very excited about it. And I'm 100% convinced it's the right thing to do.
Sounds wonderful - genuinely.
I just don't believe a word of it. And saying we should leave based on this lovely idea somehow coming to pass - not for me sorry.
Wel, I find that very sad. Change doesn't happen unless you vote for it.
It does feel a lot like Cameron is throwing everything at this. I think Major on Sunday was the first attempt to turn round remain fortunes which probably had some success, but then after the programme with Farage momentum dropped. Come Friday night football will be on the minds of the masses and he will struggle to get his message across. If we wants to create a lead in the polls he needs to get movement in the next 24 hours and he will be hoping Wollaston has kick started that.
I've been monitoring the facebook likes of both campaigns in the past 2 months and the support levels have had a direct correlation with events as you might expect. Leave had an excellent 10 days up until Sunday when Remain picked up and re-overtook Leave. From Cameron/Farage debate onwards Leave has pulled away but I've noticed that has slowed down a bit today.
My Facebook feed is full of previously apolitical 30-40 somethings "liking" or copying pro-remain stuff. Quite surprising, these people really show no general political interest at all online or face to face and based on that I expect a Remain win, possibly quite comfortably.
Not a single pro-Leave thing posted. Just my $0.02
if you're middle class it seems you have more pro remain stuff and working class more pro leave stuff. I have around 10 facebook friends or so who constantly share pro remain stuff with a mixed response. Only 1 friend shares vote leave stuff. But the same vote remain sharers were sharing Ed Miliband/pro green anti tory stuff last year and we know how that ended! I did have a laugh that a couple of almost militant feminist Corbyn/Sanders supporters I'm facebook friends with shared the John Major video!
Comments
https://freemovement.org.uk/brexit-briefing-impact-on-common-travel-area-and-the-irish/
Just signed up for canvassing today at Westminster. Any advice? Btw what is Leave's position on the single market just in case someone ask's me.
Mostly to stop smuggling! Of what??!! Dizzy cows?
There most certainly was not an open border "during the height of the Troubles".
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston becomes a minister by the end of 2016, you win £25
If Remain wins, and Sarah Wollaston does not become a minister by the end of 2016, I win £350
If Leave wins, bet void
Is that ok? Cheers.
Given there isn't a motorway between Belfast and Dublin this would require HMG to build 25 miles of motorway first so they could put in the border post.
That is the official Vote Leave position.
MEMBERS of the public have told politicians they will not settle for anything less than living in a small village surrounded by a high wall.
During a TV debate audience members said Brexit did not go far enough and demanded to live in settlements of a few dozen people enclosed by walls with spikes to repel ‘outsiders’....
Pensioner Mary Fisher agreed: “I’d like to live in a village with a wall because I’ve chosen to ignore obvious problems like no electricity and the fact that we’d all die.
“There’s nothing wrong with wanting to live with people who are like you. Except Linda from the bingo, obviously. She’s a two-faced cow and I’d dob her in for being a witch.”
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britons-demand-to-live-in-medieval-village-surrounded-by-a-wall-20160609109418
I've recently had some interesting discussions with friends who believe in the unity of humanity and a single world Government. I pointed out that I felt it was an absolutely awful idea; it would become wholly captured by vested interests and elites, and work in their interests, undemocratic, become self-perpetuating, have no regulatory diversity, and be so large and dominant it would be practically impossible to leave it. It would be highly corrupting and corruptible.
The EU is precisely this, in minature, for Europe.
I don't want that future for my kids or my grandkids.
My rellies down south used to bring us poteen laced with cold tea to make it look like whiskey in duty paid whiskey bottles.
Things got more fun when the EU intervened since there was a lot of money to be made smuggling livestock so your dizzy cow comment hits the mark. farmers used to expolit holes in the subsidy regime and claim the EU slaughter premium on both sided of the border some claiming the same beasts had been slaughtered a couple of times over.
As for open borders there always were. In the troubles there were official crossing points for legit businesses ( always a spot check only ) but in the country areas there were still lots of small backroads where the only way you knew you had crossed the border was when the road signs changed.
I catch a plane from Bucharest to Dublin, flashing my Romanian EU passport as I stroll through Dublin Airport customs. Then I take a bus to Belfast, smiling as the bus drives through the open border between Eire and Northern Ireland. After that, it's just an internal UK flight from Belfast to Heathrow, with no passport required. Home and dry.
What's to prevent UK immigration from being circumvented in this way?
So long as the EU continues to exist, with almost all of our European cousins and partners in it, no much how much we loathe it or rail against it, it IS practically impossible to leave.
Leaving would be like backing out of a holiday with a group of friends because all but yourself want to go to somewhere you don't much care for - so you do without a holiday, or have to go somewhere on your own (or with someone else) rather than going with the people you wanted to spend time with.
After a while it just gets boring listening to remainers who havent a clue what they're talking about.
@IsabelOakeshott: I'm told @grantshapps will be next significant Westminster figure to declare for Remain. Acc to sources he wants to do so without a big fuss
I know we're too far apart to ever meet on this, but this idea that leaving somehow means we're looking globally seems bananas to me. Leaving is just that, Cameron's now using the word 'quitting' whenever he can - quite rightly. There's no other regional grouping who we could join, so it is a choice to go our own way. I can see the attractions from sovereignty (and at least understand them on immigration) but I can't see how leaving would somehow create the environment for an alternative grouping to emerge.
“Ah, Sarah,” he says. “Do sit down. I’ve got a job for you. I want you to spend the next six years criticising me, my policies and my circle more or less relentlessly. Then, in the middle of a referendum that it hasn’t yet occurred to me to hold, you can give me an unexpected boost by switching sides! And because you’ll have criticised me more or less relentlessly for the previous six years, no one will suspect that you’re actually my stooge! Except of course for the dazzlingly perceptive Nadine Dorries, who will expose the whole thing, but never mind, there’s nothing we can do about that, she’s just too damned smart.”
You see. When you look at it like that, it all makes perfect sense.
As my last link showed is possible, the CTA may be amended and if we went back to that situation you describe, then that would have implications for, as Hugh Order noted, for the security situation.
"Never do something because everyone else is doing it. Stand up for what you think is right and then convince them to follow your lead instead" - Thatcher
If this referendum campaign has shown anything, it's shown that you (despite agreeing with 99/% of what I said on my blog, your own words) clearly don't have it within yourself to do that.
I am very disappointed but it's your decision.
The UK has two choices change its benefit system to a more continental one ( but that will hit many poorer brits ) or find a way of controlling how non-nationals can access the system. Currently the EU doesn't permit the second option.
I've been monitoring the facebook likes of both campaigns in the past 2 months and the support levels have had a direct correlation with events as you might expect. Leave had an excellent 10 days up until Sunday when Remain picked up and re-overtook Leave. From Cameron/Farage debate onwards Leave has pulled away but I've noticed that has slowed down a bit today.
I'm very excited about it. And I'm 100% convinced it's the right thing to do.
It is a mystery why exactly the Vote Leave campaign chose to focus on a number of £350m a week being sent to Brussels.
It is demonstrably untrue. Or to put it another way, it is a lie.
And it is emblazoned in metre-high letters on their campaign bus.
http://news.sky.com/story/1709387/can-wollaston-call-350m-brexit-claim-a-lie
The Thatcher quote could equally be used to support Remain. Let's stay in and make the arguments, influence the debate, and push for an EU mark 2 or an Associate Member model, whilst using our time that we stay in to do all we can to ensure the legislation that spouts out from the EU doesn't harm us too much. That would be leadership wouldn't it, not bailing out and walking away.
And yes, I did agree with most of what you said in your excellent blog post (don't think I said 99% to be fair), the one flaw I felt in it was that it assumed we were now at the point of no return and it was now "now or never". I don't think it is.
I thought it was spot on. Increasingly, the Remain campaign is sounding very Utilitarian and rather Marxist in its reduction of its citizens to mere economic pawns.
IIRC @Big_G_NorthWales - a strong Remainer described himself as a Utilitarian - that's about as far from my position as possible.
https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/740876947547381760
I suspect that was done before Londoners discovered the fares freeze was as fictional as Camerons immigration manifesto pledge.
Mike should enjoy his holiday and not waste it being on twitter all day
Cameron palling up with Lucas and Harperson
Ugh ugh ugh
Establishment stitch-up firming up my Leave inclination for sure
Actually I think Sarkozy would still beat Hollande in the 1st round, and subsequently beat Le Pen in the second. Sarkozy is a poor choice, but Hollande will lose so much splintering on his left to Greens/Communists etc, that he will come 3rd. The Socialist's need to ditch Hollande to have any chance.
She added a nutritionist to her team, but crucially continued taking three substances recommended by the doctor.
One of those was meldonium, but it was not something Sharapova was keen to publicise. Only her father and agent knew what she was taking.
According to the 29-year-old's own evidence, the only doctor she told - in 2015 - was Dr Sergei Yanitsky of the Russian Olympic team. Her coach, trainer, physiotherapist and nutritionist were not informed. Nor did she tell any of the Women's Tennis Association's medical staff.
Although she declared the use of other medication and vitamins on the past seven doping control forms she completed, she did not declare meldonium.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36486050
Knowing somebody who has been involved in British Olympic Elite sports programme, they aren't allowed to have an abnormal shit without telling somebody, and they have it rammed into them day in day out that they are never ever to take anything without informing medical teams, getting it checked out etc etc etc.
The chances of one of the world best tennis players not being repeatedly told you must tell us everything you take, we must check it all out etc etc etc.
In any event a review of the Troubles would show that what turned the tide on the paramilitaries wasnt border controls, but infiltration , better intelligence and an agreement between the UK and RoI that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have these people in our societies. The Border was so pourous you could walk across it.
Look up Slab Murphy if you want to see how it's done.
Not a single pro-Leave thing posted. Just my $0.02
What he wouldn't be able to get is an automatic work permit, and therefore a job. So nobody would employ him.
We have spent forty years trying to reform from inside. Cameron just tried to do it (look at how poor a reponse he got to his Bloomberg speech) and that was when we were threatening to Leave with an actual in/out referendum in the offing.
Now, all the EU has left is threats. And this is a decision for decades.
All I can do is to plead with you to look inside yourself and try to find the courage to vote the way that you believe to be right.
You don't want to be regretting your vote for years to come.
That does not alter or affect the point I, and Huge Orde, and plenty of others were making. If it turns out that the CTA is amended, that we return to some kind of border controls, it is possible that nationalists may react to this in a negative way.
If you remember the start of this exchange - someone, flippantly, in a you'll-never-believe-what-rubbish-they're-pushing-now way misquoted someone saying that if we leave the EU the IRA will return.
Well, first as I'm sure you are aware, the IRA never went away; but secondly, perhaps you could give your on the ground analysis of how the nationalists might react to there being a border between north and south once more.
This last a genuine question. You are, after all, living there.
I just don't believe a word of it. And saying we should leave based on this lovely idea somehow coming to pass - not for me sorry.
http://www.stenaline.co.uk/FAQs/passports-and-visas/im-a-british-irish-citizen-do-i-need-a-passport-to-travel
In practice I think this argument is largely bollocks because so much illegal immigration consists of entering the country for a legal purpose then not leaving, but controlling borders is a core part of the Leave narrative, so it seems fair to point out that control of borders either wouldn't happen or would happen but would have serious adverse consequences in Ireland.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36484440
Best wishes.
EEC seemed to be worth backing in 1975, subsequent evolution has failed to address weaknesses and lack of checks and balances on directives/laws.