My wife and I both listened to Sarah Wollaston on both BBC and Sky this morning and she expressed in a quiet and competent manner how she has been torn by the debate and that she had been influenced by her Father, family and constituents that remain was the correct decision on economic grounds for the NHS, National security, and how she had been concerned over the debate on immigration. My wife commented that she seemed to express the views of many in this referendum, that were wrestling with their choice, and that she had made a brave decision to change her mind. It is more than possible that many voters will do the same as their pen is poised over the ballot paper. For those on here who see a conspiracy there is none - just for once an MP wrestling with her conscience and making a decision that she believes in and is comfortable with
you're on the wrong site m8 - only full blown conspiracy theories allowed. Nutjobs rule!!
"At the heart of Mr Cameron’s argument is the claim that the British people face the choice between a ‘Great Britain’ inside the EU or a ‘little England’ outside.
The implication of this trite and pre-rehearsed soundbite is that Great Britain can continue only if it is propped up by the European Union."
In a pub in London yesterday I was engaged in conversation by a young Asian lad, 20s, who enthusiastically asked me about the referendum. I said I was firmly for OUT and he was genuinely puzzled why I was voting for something that would trash the economy and lose jobs.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
Didn't see you as someone who'd visit the Admiral Duncan.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
The thousand+ comments a day in the Times aren't pro-Remain. There's huge concern over immigration, culture erosion, Merkel's Migrants et al. Their articles tend to be much more keen on Remain. I still expect them to come out for Remain - as a balance for the Sun.
YouGov did a poll (admittedly a couple of months ago) looking at how people would vote in the referendum by newspaper. Guardian (unsurprisingly) was top. Express (unsurprisingly) was bottom. Times readers supported remain by about 2:1. The split wasn't really left-right as such but tabloid (leave) vs broadsheet (remain). The one exception was that Telegraph readers were slightly more leave than the Mirror.
Arron Banks, the co-founder of Leave.EU, put out a statement this morning saying he was thinking of taking legal action to try to stop the government extending the deadline for voter registration. He suggested this could involve challenging the result of the referendum after 23 June.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Exactly, Wollaston has raised her profile, done Cameron a favour. It's win/win for her. The fact she was never rolled out by the leave campaign given her 'NHS credentials' suggested she was never fully committed or they never trusted her.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
She looks and sounds like a normal and reasonable nice lady. And she is getting lots and lots of airtime to express her views as a perfectly normal, educated change of mind. The fact that she is in probably the most respected profession in the country as an NHS doctor is bad news for Leave.
I suspect Sturgeon's effect will mainly be to show up Corbyn to Labour supporters. She is a very effective political operator The comparisons with Corbyn who seems to be nowhere aren't flattering.
That's because Jezza is been a "outer" for 40 years and would obviously be campaigning for OUT if he could.
That's one interpretation. My interpretation is that Jezza is utterly useless
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
She looks and sounds like a normal and reasonable nice lady. And she is getting lots and lots of airtime to express her views as a perfectly normal, educated change of mind. The fact that she is in probably the most respected profession in the country as an NHS doctor is bad news for Leave.
except an NHS doctor who quit to become a Tory. Not quite the same ring to it no?
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
It's beyond wilful blindness. A Party leader and PM/top team can't actively insult its voters and members like this.
I certainly won't be. It's attacking our core beliefs in Britain - it's a red line that can't be uncrossed.
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago.
You don't remember very well then - the quote was 'Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick', not that it is unreasonable she do it (though some people may also think that, unfairly, since this is a UK vote and of course she can appeal to everyone) but that it will go down poorly with the targeted audience, and I remember distinctly endless comments that anything Cameron said, or indeed anything any Westminster politician said, would go down like a bucket of cold sick in Scotland. We see it to this day in fact.
So in fact exactly those objections were made to Cameron lecturing Scotland. If you want to complain about people objecting to a Scot lecturing the English vs a Englishman lecturing the Scots, that is an entirely different objection to the one you, er, objected to.
I didn't make a specific objection, just highlighted a rather contradictory attitude to the two situations. Also, as you allude to somewhat tortuously, there is a difference between a politician with no vote lecturing an electorate, and one with a vote taking part in a debate about how we all should vote, particularly when the latter is willing to engage with their fellow voters.
Sturgeon's 'bucket of cold sick' quotient may be rather lower outside the PB Torysphere.
'Poll shows Sturgeon is now the most popular politician across Britain
The poll, conducted during the middle of this month, shows that across Britain Ms Sturgeon has the highest net approval rating of +33; a record for TNS. She is followed by Ukip's Nigel Farage on +12, Conservative leader David Cameron on +7, Labour leader Ed Miliband on -8 and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg on -22. Among men, she has the highest net rating of +32 and among women of +35. Similarly, she tops ratings across every different age group from +17 among 18 to 24-year-olds to +43 among over 65s. In every part of Britain,the First Minister is also top of the polling from +30 in north-east England to +38 in Wales and the West Country and +33 in Greater London.'
There is a contradictory attitude, but you didn't refer to that one, you referred to a quote which was saying Sturgeon might go down poorly and saying you don't recall that happening before with Cameron, when it did. If I was being torturous, it was because your critique was torturous!
As it is I think she is popular and well respected. I think she can appeal across the country on an issue like this in this scenario, though it isn't guaranteed. The GE was different as her competence and popularity was part of the problem for many voters, as it meant SNP influence on things they didn't want the SNP to have influence on. Whereas this really is a cross cutting issue where her reasons for remaining should apply elsehwhere too and she won't be any more or less powerful if English voters support the same position as her.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
But the Master did exactly that with the Labour party. Splitting parties very risky under our system. Owen Jones, who can be a bit annoying at times, wrote a very good piece and video on it the other day.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it.
Lol - the panic on here from [some of] the Leavers on here is most entertaining - they seem to be determined to keep the headlights on Dr. Sarah - perhaps they need to consider if that is really a good tactic.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it.
Lol - the panic on here from [some of] the Leavers on here is most entertaining - they seem to be determined to keep the headlights on Dr. Sarah - perhaps they need to consider if that is really a good tactic.
you do realise political betting doesnt set the news agenda? anyway do you really think her defection can wrestle the polls back in remain's favour? time is running out!
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I don't see how a voter can be called a hypocrite. Am I missing something? Or are we doing a Humpty-Dumpty?
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
If I was Boris I might have drafted one for each side for two reasons.
Firstly: Cameron may have come back with a much better renegotiation. He didn't. But mainly: It's a difficult and serious decision. Putting your thinking down in writing for both sides helps crystalise it and make you seriously think about the logic and ensure you're making the right call.
I've done that before taking major decisions in the past.
That's very good strategy for important decisions, especially so when it's either a very close call or you're 110% sure and think the other side must be mad. The process of researching and writing down the both sides will rationalise your own decision making.
The best attended debate at the uni deb soc 20 years ago was always the annual take-the-other-side debate, usually on something particularly entrenched or controversial. The Christian Union vs the Feminist Society, each arguing the other side of the abortion debate was a very memorable and thought provoking evening.
In real life, it's called writing down the pros and cons.
I've done that for a couple of big decisions I've made, and it really helped.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
Are you serious about the Daily Mail. It has been so Brexit for so long it has lost all balance as has all their columnists. The Mail would not want to talk about this story. However, the strange thing is that the Mail on Sunday is very much pro remain.
The Mail like backing a winner, they tried to dismantle UKIP last year despite the views of their readers. When they lead with Farage and the race questions after the Q&A this week people may have wondered if they were wavering, but they then switched to Cameron and his immigration failings. As you say the MOS and it's editor are very pro remain, so you can't take any newspaper for granted until the week of the vote.
You can take the Daily Mail leave for granted. It is lucky it is still being delivered daily to our house but we are optimists and are intrigued to see their narrative post 23rd June, irrespective of the result
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Quite.
1987 Tory 1992 Lib Dem as protest 1997 Labour 2001 Labour 2005 Labour but very reluctant 2010 Tory 2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
And quite possibly they're missing the voters too.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I don't see how a voter can be called a hypocrite. Am I missing something? Or are we doing a Humpty-Dumpty?
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
Clearly if someone changes their mind and goes to another camp it's a blow for the side they're leaving (the exception is that Quinton guy who left the Tories for Labour - They were genuinely glad to be shut of him I think)
But the saving grace for LEAVE is that most people won't have the first idea who she is....
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
Are you serious about the Daily Mail. It has been so Brexit for so long it has lost all balance as has all their columnists. The Mail would not want to talk about this story. However, the strange thing is that the Mail on Sunday is very much pro remain.
The Mail like backing a winner, they tried to dismantle UKIP last year despite the views of their readers. When they lead with Farage and the race questions after the Q&A this week people may have wondered if they were wavering, but they then switched to Cameron and his immigration failings. As you say the MOS and it's editor are very pro remain, so you can't take any newspaper for granted until the week of the vote.
You can take the Daily Mail leave for granted. It is lucky it is still being delivered daily to our house but we are optimists and are intrigued to see their narrative post 23rd June, irrespective of the result
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it.
Lol - the panic on here from [some of] the Leavers on here is most entertaining - they seem to be determined to keep the headlights on Dr. Sarah - perhaps they need to consider if that is really a good tactic.
you do realise political betting doesnt set the news agenda? anyway do you really think her defection can wrestle the polls back in remain's favour? time is running out!
You do realise there's a reason this is all over the news don't you - and twitter full of raging, frothing leavers helps the BBC and Sky etc to keep it up there. And by the way OGH would be most hurt by your first sentence
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
That is a very bold statement. They have at least 175 MP's, many members including myself, and many who GOTV.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
Looking forward to my first email from "Dave" or "George" post referendum asking me for a donation like wot I gave prior to the 2015 GE.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
Wollaston isn't an important figure, but her arguments if they get heard are likely to resonate with the small group of undecideds that will determine this referendum, ie that leaving was attractive but ultimately irresponsible thing to do.
Of course it works both ways and arguably Boris Johnson had a similar effect the other way earlier in the campaign
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
Another game changer? All over for Leave? Or have you given up on making wild claims which have yet to materialise?
Wollaston will make next to no difference to the referendum result and this is coming from someone who is betting on Remain winning.
Kin hell, I thought Dr Wollaston was a Westminster bubble story, but this makes me think Leave are really worried about the mother of all shellackings
@LouiseMensch: Sarah Wollaston @SarahWollaston is a gutless coward who has been deleting her anti-EU tweets. Stop lying to the public Sarah #Brexit
The best result for Britain would be a crushing victory by one side or the other. Rather that than a close result, which is going to lead to all kinds of post-referendum shenanigans.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
Cameron and Osborne are still fighting the political wars of the late 1990s and early noughties.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
The one thing you're not is typical - any party you've not voted for yet?
Is 2016 the Chinese Year of the inaccurate Nazi comparisons?
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
Cameron and Osborne are still fighting the political wars of the late 1990s and early noughties.
The world has changed, as has their party.
There seems to a common thread from Major to Blair to Cameron that eventually Prime ministers get fed up with their parties.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
Another game changer? All over for Leave? Or have you given up on making wild claims which have yet to materialise?
Wollaston will make next to no difference to the referendum result and this is coming from someone who is betting on Remain winning.
Yes, well put. History shows that the side arguing for the status quo does better as the day draws near. I expect Remain to move back into the lead and to continue to do so. However, it won't be because of a single event like Sarah W. changing her mind.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
But the Master did exactly that with the Labour party. Splitting parties very risky under our system. Owen Jones, who can be a bit annoying at times, wrote a very good piece and video on it the other day.
Quite right @Sean_F underestimates the power of a leader being able to turn people to his point of view. In some ways, Blair is the true pioneer of europhilia in this country. And Cameron sees himself as the heir to Blair.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
That is a very bold statement. They have at least 175 MP's, many members including myself, and many who GOTV.
175 MPs ? Even Ed Miliband rustled up more than that.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Quite.
1987 Tory 1992 Lib Dem as protest 1997 Labour 2001 Labour 2005 Labour but very reluctant 2010 Tory 2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
tbh I'm surprised you call Reckless unprincipled, to me he's the opposite.
I must admit I'd never heard of this Woolaston person until now, is there a market on her becoming a Minister on June 24th?
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Quite.
1987 Tory 1992 Lib Dem as protest 1997 Labour 2001 Labour 2005 Labour but very reluctant 2010 Tory 2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
She's being paraded like a Soviet Show Trial penitent. A revolting humiliating spectacle.
Is 2016 the Chinese Year of the inaccurate Nazi comparisons?
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
When I read the first sentence, i thought Sked was going to go on to say that about Farage.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
My wife felt she was very genuine and normal as indeed many will as this gets huge broadcast media coverage as I predicted last night. David Cameron has many faults but there is not one Conservative MP that at present could come anywhere near him.
@faisalislam: Woollaston tells me she asked Leave officials not to use "untrue" £350m, acknowledged wasnt right, said it was "sticking" in voters heads...
They lied
They knew they lied
They think the lie is working
They will keep using the lie
Shabby campaign, it's a wonder others can still stomach it
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it.
Lol - the panic on here from [some of] the Leavers on here is most entertaining - they seem to be determined to keep the headlights on Dr. Sarah - perhaps they need to consider if that is really a good tactic.
you do realise political betting doesnt set the news agenda? anyway do you really think her defection can wrestle the polls back in remain's favour? time is running out!
Is 2016 the Chinese Year of the inaccurate Nazi comparisons?
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
When I read the first sentence, i thought Sked was going to go on to say that about Farage.
Haha true.
Alan Sked's sulk about Farage makes Ted Heath look magnanimous about Lady Thatcher replacing him.
Is 2016 the Chinese Year of the inaccurate Nazi comparisons?
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
It's a compliment, Goebbels was the original master of propaganda.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it.
Lol - the panic on here from [some of] the Leavers on here is most entertaining - they seem to be determined to keep the headlights on Dr. Sarah - perhaps they need to consider if that is really a good tactic.
you do realise political betting doesnt set the news agenda? anyway do you really think her defection can wrestle the polls back in remain's favour? time is running out!
you know full well that remain have been behind in most of the recent polls, hence Cameron trying every trick in the book. Many remainers expected to be home and hosed by now but it's on a knife edge. I'm expecting 56-44 to remain in the end but if England do well and a patriotic fervour sweeps the country then leave can do this.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
But the Master did exactly that with the Labour party. Splitting parties very risky under our system. Owen Jones, who can be a bit annoying at times, wrote a very good piece and video on it the other day.
Quite right @Sean_F underestimates the power of a leader being able to turn people to his point of view. In some ways, Blair is the true pioneer of europhilia in this country. And Cameron sees himself as the heir to Blair.
I think more Tories could go for Remain than expected but, a lot more Labour voters for Leave.
Averaged out, I think it won't be decisive either way other than the voting coalition being broader on both sides.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Quite.
1987 Tory 1992 Lib Dem as protest 1997 Labour 2001 Labour 2005 Labour but very reluctant 2010 Tory 2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
tbh I'm surprised you call Reckless unprincipled, to me he's the opposite.
I must admit I'd never heard of this Woolaston person until now, is there a market on her becoming a Minister on June 24th?
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
My wife felt she was very genuine and normal as indeed many will as this gets huge broadcast media coverage as I predicted last night. David Cameron has many faults but there is not one Conservative MP that at present could come anywhere near him.
@faisalislam: Vote Leave say still looking in to Gove's promise to @Skynews to get the £350m number independently audited, like Ukip manifesto. 5 days now
Is 2016 the Chinese Year of the inaccurate Nazi comparisons?
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
When I read the first sentence, i thought Sked was going to go on to say that about Farage.
Haha true.
Alan Sked's sulk about Farage makes Ted Heath look magnanimous about Lady Thatcher replacing him.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
And then he is going to try and govern with all those people he brutalised on his backbenches... good luck with that. It won't be about remain or leave by then, it will be personal.
Personally I think the real hilarity is going to be Dodgy Dave tearing his party to pieces, making it so that one half the party can't talk to the other without spitting, so that he can stay in his beloved EU... and then FN win in France and the EU implodes. Failing that, he will lose his majority to the kippers in 2020, 5% of voters moving from the Tories to UKIP and they will win 30 seats, and that's the end of that.
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
Nice tip. Once it gets to 5 I might get on, to trade off.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
Looking forward to my first email from "Dave" or "George" post referendum asking me for a donation like wot I gave prior to the 2015 GE.
They best hope they don't read the replies.
I got a CCHQ begging request yesterday - I deleted it.
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
Clearly if someone changes their mind and goes to another camp it's a blow for the side they're leaving (the exception is that Quinton guy who left the Tories for Labour - They were genuinely glad to be shut of him I think)
But the saving grace for LEAVE is that most people won't have the first idea who she is....
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
But the Master did exactly that with the Labour party. Splitting parties very risky under our system. Owen Jones, who can be a bit annoying at times, wrote a very good piece and video on it the other day.
Quite right @Sean_F underestimates the power of a leader being able to turn people to his point of view. In some ways, Blair is the true pioneer of europhilia in this country. And Cameron sees himself as the heir to Blair.
Cameron hasn't succeeded in winning Conservatives over to the Europhile cause. The biggest political shift of the campaign has been Cameron's ratings sinking like a stone.
And unlike Labour under Blair, there is a rival party on the Right.
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
i do agree. it's not discussed on any forums i read, not mentioned in the workplace. Will it still be the headline by the 10 o clock news? the BBC might be leading with it, but it's a slow news day. I just can't see the public who do hear about the story believe her reasoning.
My wife and I both listened to Sarah Wollaston on both BBC and Sky this morning and she expressed in a quiet and competent manner how she has been torn by the debate and that she had been influenced by her Father, family and constituents that remain was the correct decision on economic grounds for the NHS, National security, and how she had been concerned over the debate on immigration. My wife commented that she seemed to express the views of many in this referendum, that were wrestling with their choice, and that she had made a brave decision to change her mind. It is more than possible that many voters will do the same as their pen is poised over the ballot paper. For those on here who see a conspiracy there is none - just for once an MP wrestling with her conscience and making a decision that she believes in and is comfortable with
Exactly right. The idea that she is some bullying europhile plant/careerist shill/Blairite spy is the stuff only of wild eurosceptic fantasy.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
Looking forward to my first email from "Dave" or "George" post referendum asking me for a donation like wot I gave prior to the 2015 GE.
They best hope they don't read the replies.
I got a CCHQ begging request yesterday - I deleted it.
Another one bites the dust.
Cameron's plan to shear the eurosceptic right from his party is working.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
And then he is going to try and govern with all those people he brutalised on his backbenches... good luck with that. It won't be about remain or leave by then, it will be personal.
Personally I think the real hilarity is going to be Dodgy Dave tearing his party to pieces, making it so that one half the party can't talk to the other without spitting, so that he can stay in his beloved EU... and then FN win in France and the EU implodes. Failing that, he will lose his majority to the kippers in 2020, 5% of voters moving from the Tories to UKIP and they will win 30 seats, and that's the end of that.
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
Clearly if someone changes their mind and goes to another camp it's a blow for the side they're leaving (the exception is that Quinton guy who left the Tories for Labour - They were genuinely glad to be shut of him I think)
But the saving grace for LEAVE is that most people won't have the first idea who she is....
They will by tonight
and they will watch the TV and go "ive never heard of her"
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
I can't remember where I read the article but if I recall it was something along the lines that John Major, the PM and George Osborne have been meeting to discuss the future of the party. It was intimated that they are going to destroy the party and from the ashes will rise this modern, pro-Europe party. This probably ties in with the rumours about a cull of parliamentary candidates that don't fit into this objective. Even if this is only partly true and it seems to fit in with what is going on, then it is truly brutal.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
I'd rather vote UKIP than Tory if Remain wins. That'd result in a Lib Dem win here in Eastbourne if I'm a typical pissed off voter.
Looking forward to my first email from "Dave" or "George" post referendum asking me for a donation like wot I gave prior to the 2015 GE.
They best hope they don't read the replies.
I got a CCHQ begging request yesterday - I deleted it.
Should have sent them an appropriately worded reply! Are you going to stay a member for your vote in the leadership election, or is it part of Dave's plan that the only members left by the time he resigns will be the hardcore Osbornites?
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
I thought Leave were worth backing when they were 31% , I can't see what has changed unless more and more people are picking up on Prof Curtice and Mike pointing out ORB say there poll is Remain ahead by 12% not the 1% the Telegraph report it as.
On the £350m, the whole point of using that figure was precisely that it was tenuous. That way, it gets continually talked about by both sides, helping the fact that there is a large cost - whatever it might actually be - sink in.
cf. the "£250m cost" of "a new voting system" used so effectively by #No2AV. Yes trying to argue - perfectly reasonably and logically - that most of that was the sunk cost of the referendum only helped make their opponents' point for them.
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
I thought Leave were worth backing when they were 31% , I can't see what has changed unless more and more people are picking up on Prof Curtice and Mike pointing out ORB say there poll is Remain ahead by 12% not the 1% the Telegraph report it as.
It's people betting with their hearts, not their heads. In the same way that people kept betting on Jeb Bush long after it was clear he wasn't going to win.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
That is a very bold statement. They have at least 175 MP's, many members including myself, and many who GOTV.
175 MPs ? Even Ed Miliband rustled up more than that.
You said that DC and GO do not have the support of their MP's. This figure is calling you out on that statement, and by the way add I more from this morning
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Quite.
1987 Tory 1992 Lib Dem as protest 1997 Labour 2001 Labour 2005 Labour but very reluctant 2010 Tory 2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
tbh I'm surprised you call Reckless unprincipled, to me he's the opposite.
I must admit I'd never heard of this Woolaston person until now, is there a market on her becoming a Minister on June 24th?
His defection was unprincipled and deliberately designed to wreck - he wasted resources in his own constituency party and then jumped ship for maximum damage. Carswell didn't.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
That is a very bold statement. They have at least 175 MP's, many members including myself, and many who GOTV.
175 MPs ? Even Ed Miliband rustled up more than that.
You said that DC and GO do not have the support of their MP's. This figure is calling you out on that statement, and by the way add I more from this morning
Given their tiny majority I would suggest they are pretty hamstrung.
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
Clearly if someone changes their mind and goes to another camp it's a blow for the side they're leaving (the exception is that Quinton guy who left the Tories for Labour - They were genuinely glad to be shut of him I think)
But the saving grace for LEAVE is that most people won't have the first idea who she is....
They will by tonight
No, they really won't.
The £350m figure will be brought up and then those representing Leave will explain that the EU dictates how the rebate is spent. It will have a neutral effect on voters as they will be discussing massive amounts of money being spent on EU membership which voters are picking up on.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
My wife felt she was very genuine and normal as indeed many will as this gets huge broadcast media coverage as I predicted last night. David Cameron has many faults but there is not one Conservative MP that at present could come anywhere near him.
Christ on a bike.
Another serial orgasm from Remainers as they are sure they have it in the bag, another couple of days of gloating, and then the next poll with show a 2% lead for Leave and it will be all doom and gloom again.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
She doesn't suit your narrative. Many outside the bubble will sympathise with her struggle and and may or may not change their own minds on her comments.
or maybe the fact that she isn't genuine doesn't suit your narrative. Clearly Cameron can do no wrong!
My wife felt she was very genuine and normal as indeed many will as this gets huge broadcast media coverage as I predicted last night. David Cameron has many faults but there is not one Conservative MP that at present could come anywhere near him.
Comments
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3632360/PETER-OBORNE-Unpatriotic-PM-stop-talking-country-down.html
"At the heart of Mr Cameron’s argument is the claim that the British people face the choice between a ‘Great Britain’ inside the EU or a ‘little England’ outside.
The implication of this trite and pre-rehearsed soundbite is that Great Britain can continue only if it is propped up by the European Union."
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my membership will not be renewed.
Indeed. It's all very co-ordinated, isn't it?
It's beyond wilful blindness. A Party leader and PM/top team can't actively insult its voters and members like this.
I certainly won't be. It's attacking our core beliefs in Britain - it's a red line that can't be uncrossed.
Sarah Wollaston’s defection to Remain is a blow to the Leave campaign, whatever some of its supporters might say. The Tory MP is notoriously independently-minded, and unafraid of changing her mind, too, which makes her a rare species in Westminster. She is also totally uninterested in a government job, which makes it more difficult for her former allies to claim that she is just jumping ship in order to gain a cosy ministerial position. And Leave made a big song and dance about signing her up in the first place, which makes it even more difficult to claim that her change of heart means nothing.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/sarah-wollastons-defection-remain-really-blow-leave/
As it is I think she is popular and well respected. I think she can appeal across the country on an issue like this in this scenario, though it isn't guaranteed. The GE was different as her competence and popularity was part of the problem for many voters, as it meant SNP influence on things they didn't want the SNP to have influence on. Whereas this really is a cross cutting issue where her reasons for remaining should apply elsehwhere too and she won't be any more or less powerful if English voters support the same position as her.
You are superficial, easily led. Sheep.
I've done that for a couple of big decisions I've made, and it really helped.
1987 Tory
1992 Lib Dem as protest
1997 Labour
2001 Labour
2005 Labour but very reluctant
2010 Tory
2015 Tory
Now I'm feeling rather homeless.
I see Woollaston is wall to wall media interviews. She makes Reckless look principled.
But the saving grace for LEAVE is that most people won't have the first idea who she is....
@LouiseMensch: Sarah Wollaston @SarahWollaston is a gutless coward who has been deleting her anti-EU tweets. Stop lying to the public Sarah #Brexit
They best hope they don't read the replies.
Of course it works both ways and arguably Boris Johnson had a similar effect the other way earlier in the campaign
Wollaston will make next to no difference to the referendum result and this is coming from someone who is betting on Remain winning.
The world has changed, as has their party.
@Politico_Daily: UKIP founder Alan Sked has compared the remain camp to the nazis saying Cameron has run a campaign 'Josef Goebbels would have been proud of'
I must admit I'd never heard of this Woolaston person until now, is there a market on her becoming a Minister on June 24th?
They lied
They knew they lied
They think the lie is working
They will keep using the lie
Shabby campaign, it's a wonder others can still stomach it
Remain are leading in the polls. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271589
Alan Sked's sulk about Farage makes Ted Heath look magnanimous about Lady Thatcher replacing him.
This is when she took on a major party advocating withdrawal from the EC
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/740848999167623168
Averaged out, I think it won't be decisive either way other than the voting coalition being broader on both sides.
The same side threatening Court action if people are legally registered.
Why are they so scared?
Something is moving the market that almost certainly won't affect the result. Leave isn't significantly less likely than three days ago but has gone from 3.2 to 4.4. I'm back on it.
Now I see that her "nice lady who changed my mind" schtick is working, and working big time.
Are Leave in for a kicking?
Right, logging off for now. I have work to do.
Personally I think the real hilarity is going to be Dodgy Dave tearing his party to pieces, making it so that one half the party can't talk to the other without spitting, so that he can stay in his beloved EU... and then FN win in France and the EU implodes. Failing that, he will lose his majority to the kippers in 2020, 5% of voters moving from the Tories to UKIP and they will win 30 seats, and that's the end of that.
And unlike Labour under Blair, there is a rival party on the Right.
Cameron's plan to shear the eurosceptic right from his party is working.
Now over 112,000 signatures STOP CAMERON spending British taxpayers’ money on Pro-EU Referendum leaflets - Petitions
Ratcheting up the alarmist rhetoric on security by project fear 'in' campaign will backfire; people don't like to be be taken for fools
cf. the "£250m cost" of "a new voting system" used so effectively by #No2AV. Yes trying to argue - perfectly reasonably and logically - that most of that was the sunk cost of the referendum only helped make their opponents' point for them.
The £350m figure will be brought up and then those representing Leave will explain that the EU dictates how the rebate is spent. It will have a neutral effect on voters as they will be discussing massive amounts of money being spent on EU membership which voters are picking up on.
Another serial orgasm from Remainers as they are sure they have it in the bag, another couple of days of gloating, and then the next poll with show a 2% lead for Leave and it will be all doom and gloom again.