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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,680

    Miss Plato, did you see that article the Telegraph last week that suggested couples were having less sex because they spend so much time watching box sets on the television? My immediate reactions was, "Golly, how boring must your sex life be if watching telly is seen as a better alternative?"

    Its like angling. One can see blokes, and it is overwhelmingly men, sitting in the rain by the side of a canal staring for hours at a float. How awful and boring must their home/social life be for that to be a great way of passing the time?
    There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_P said:

    12 points in the last poll
    LOL
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,680

    That should motivate the Labour vote.

    Where's tim when you need him ?
    What do the Latvian homophobes think about Brexit?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,862
    MaxPB said:


    That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model.

    Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    LucyJones said:

    I was thinking earlier abo

    This should be about the future of the country, not what is best for Dave's political career and "legacy" or even the Conservative party.

    If the arguments to Remain were sufficiently strong, he wouldn't need to try his best to rig the referendum in his favour (£9million on Remain leaflets, campaigning whilst Leave ministers were gagged, rushed referendum to avoid "unhelpful" scenes in the Med and Southern Europe over the summer, etc).

    It is probably hard for you to understand if you haven't been there, but once you have crossed the Rubicon and turned away from Cameron it is hard to imagine oneself ever returning to that fold. I voted Conservative in every election bar the last one since I turned 18 (20 years ago now) and used to defend Cameron and Osborne (including on here, when I used to post more frequently a few years ago). These days, as I regard from a distance Cameron's ever-shrinking grouping of fans, I think I know how tim must have felt when he went on (and on and on) about "PBTories".

    I posted about this a few days ago, the struggle within the remain campaign exists because the EU is shit. It is an awful organisation that truly appeals to no more than 20% of British people, the remain side have had to cajole and threaten the ~30% of additional voters onto their side. The country is naturally EUsceptic, we like Europe but don't see the need for the EU. Cameron and Osborne are finding it tough because this is an environment of their creating having posed as EUsceptics for 10 years and telling the public that an acceptable level of migration is in the "tens of thousands" and berating the EU for not giving us any levers with which to control the numbers. I honestly think Dave tried to get a major concession on migration, he fails to understand that any discrimination within the EU leads to it breaking apart as countries begin to question the benefits. As always British politicians see the EU as an economic construct, continental politicians see it as political one. The EMU is a great example where the politics have trumped the economics.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724

    Mr. Topping, may I please gently take issue with your use of the word, "war". I obviously do not have the personal and family experiences of Northern Ireland and its relationship with the RoI that Mr. Brooke does. None the less it did occupy a great chunk of my adult life, about twenty years worth, so I have some first hand experience.

    PIRA and the associated organisations, on both sides, were never fighting a war, Criminal gangsterism, aimed as much at self enrichment and securing control over certain communities as anything else, yes, but a war it certainly was not.

    Yes good point they were criminals, officially according to HMG. And to HMF for that matter, which I do recall you saying you were a member of.

    But I think it faintly absurd not to acknowledge the motivation of the participants who see themselves as part of the same struggle in an unbroken line from Cathal Brugha et al onwards.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,138

    There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.
    You can also get porn on tap too after a few clicks
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    TOPPING said:


    This is I think central to the issue. Transparently, we haven't done this. I'm sure you could quote chapter and verse at me about what Major or Blair or the Coalition did or didn't do, but I really don't think they tried too hard to reform. In fact the only time I can remember that we pushed back on something was the Fiscal Compact. Which we successfully pushed back on.

    Perhaps because they didn't feel the public cared that much for them to try too hard. If there had been more of an impetus, I'm sure they would have tried harder.

    Look at now - we only have a referendum because UKIP grew in size and forced one on Dave.

    It comes back to my point that many Leavers are more disappointed with the actions or inactions of British politicians than they are with the EU.

    Major's whole emphasis regarding Europe was reform - remember subsidiarity?

    He failed. Just as Cameron or his successor will fail. In the past this was because the EU didn't want to listen. Now it is because they can't afford to listen. Political union is an absolute necessity for economic union to survive. There is no alternative.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    PlatoSaid said:

    :lol:

    So true! I always thought of angling as the poor weather substitute for having a nice shed/man cave.
    Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.
    Teach a man to fish, and he'll spend the day on a boat drinking beer... ;)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    PlatoSaid said:

    :lol:

    So true! I always thought of angling as the poor weather substitute for having a nice shed/man cave.
    The one downside of the man cave, and I have a beaut, is that one is always liable to that cry from Herself, "Llama, are you going to....".

    On which note, how many men on here are called by their surnames by their wives? My wife has always done this and especially when talking about me to her friends. I have long thought we were, if not a unique, then certainly an unusual couple in this respect. However, the other day we went round for drinkies and cards with a young couple (late twenties I'd guess) and they did exactly the same ("Smith, that was never a two spade opener what were you thinking of...").
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,693
    Scott_P said:

    12 points in the last poll
    Must be an outlier :)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840

    Those assumptions are just based on your own prejudiced view of how the Eurozone should work. Do you think if we weren't in the way then Germany would rush to implement any of that?
    Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    I expect at least two more major twists next week

    When are you announcing your defection?
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    >1000 posts!
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016

    In any event a review of the Troubles would show that what turned the tide on the paramilitaries wasnt border controls, but infiltration , better intelligence and an agreement between the UK and RoI that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have these people in our societies.

    It's not as if the leading and middle-level figures in the paramilitary gangs have gone away. Another factor in the end of the troubles was the growth of housing construction, founded on large debt. That changed the face of Ireland on both sides of the border. Rather than making their money from a mixture of pubs and clubs, taxis, extortion, illegal drugs, and some building site work, it became building building building all the way, and associated work such as estate agency, property management, and mortgage brokering, plus some things like car insurance. As most people got deeper and deeper into debt, there was easy money for these scum. They started living in execrable-taste "Southfork"-like "ranches" outside of the towns, in some cases getting juicy EU agricultural grants on top of planning-permission scam money they shared with crooks at the town halls.

    The fear is that when they find that their take from the economy isn't so easy to get any more, they may get their guns out again.

    Infiltration and intelligence did play a part, but it wasn't the only part because the UDA, UVF and IRA had been very very heavily infiltrated for decades.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    JonathanD said:

    Trade liberalisation by the WTO has failed - the action is all now in Regional Trade Agreements which is why we've had TPP and now TTIP. Getting agreement by all 170 members of the WTO is simply too difficult.

    Of course it isn't going to be easy, but the TTIP and TPP are just the US using it's economic power to push their standards and advantage their companies globally. I'm not comfortable with that either.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698
    Scott_P said:

    When are you announcing your defection?
    To Mills & Boon?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TOPPING said:

    Yes good point they were criminals, officially according to HMG. And to HMF for that matter, which I do recall you saying you were a member of.

    But I think it faintly absurd not to acknowledge the motivation of the participants who see themselves as part of the same struggle in an unbroken line from Cathal Brugha et al onwards.
    Alas Mr. Topping, that sort of line was used to entice recruits, in the reality the motivation, especially of the men towards the top, was very different. There is, I think, enough in the public domain, to support my point of view.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527
    weejonnie said:

    4 votes actually.
    Which way will Michael Green be voting?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,862
    MaxPB said:

    Err, that's what the EU has said needs to eventually happen, why do you think they are pushing harmonisation of tax as a starter?
    The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.

    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527
    John_N4 said:

    The Remain % in NI could be around 80%. In GB it could be close to 50%.

    If in GB it's 49 point something %, then the overall figure will be above 50% and NI will have caused Britain to stay in the EU. This isn't fanciful - it could easily be what happens.

    That would be a remarkable result, given that whereas the Irish border is more or less completely open, the same is NOT true for travellers between GB and NI.

    You need to show photo ID and people driving vans are quite often searched using metal detectors, as are their vehicles, on arrival on one side of the water or the other, even though all they have done is travel within a sovereign country without crossing any international borders.

    NI people who are strongly in favour of the openness of the international border in Ireland but who aren't so bothered about pseudo-border checks on people travelling between NI and GB should (but mostly don't) favour a united Ireland. Then they'd get what they want (the line on the ground that they care about most would be as they want it - open) and GB people would get what they want (GB borders would not be open).

    There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    When Cameron promises me a ministerial job.

    Head of Morale, perhaps?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724

    Alas Mr. Topping, that sort of line was used to entice recruits, in the reality the motivation, especially of the men towards the top, was very different. There is, I think, enough in the public domain, to support my point of view.
    I think you are right and I think I am right. There were and are elements of both ideological and criminal intent in PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, INLA, EEA, etc.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690
    SeanT said:

    When Cameron promises me a ministerial job.
    SeanT, The New Minister for Women?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527

    You think it's disgusting for Leave to try and win it using their strongest card of immigration.

    Glasshouses. Stones.
    There's no point in Leave turning up to a gunfight armed with a knife.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"

    Sort of self defeating isn't it ?

    A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.

    Lying Tory bastards etc.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840

    The politics of this will take decades to play out and the primary brake is not the existence of non-Eurozone countries in the EU.

    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/the-eurozone-s-five-presidents-report-and-what-it-means-for-britain/
    Actually if we leave along with the other non-EMU nations it clears a lot of the obstacles for them.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Scott_P said:

    When are you announcing your defection?
    When you coming off the fence ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,886
    MaxPB said:

    That's entirely the problem. The reality is a two speed EU, but the Eurocrats will never recognise that reality and continue to push their one size fits all solutions. We slow down the very integration that the EMU needs because it would be detrimental to our nation to allow it, yet that also hurts the EMU nation who do need to move to Eurobonds, fiscal union/transfers and eventually a single EU budget and taxation model. None of that is right for the UK and yet we have a veto over all of those measures which means they will never be implemented while we are in the EU. It is better for us to leave and get out of their way and they can get out of our way.
    That's a point of view but it doesn't seem to me to suggest an alternative to the EU. It's a case of, this is crap we want out.

    Incidentally, I disagree with your analysis that we are "holding the Eurozone countries back". I am pretty sure they are holding themselves back. No government, especially the German and French ones, wants further integration or to weaken their nation states. That big push has run its course. If you are a pessimist you could say it's stasis and an unsustainable situation. If you are an optimist you could say that integration has gone as far as it can and it will settle on the equilibrium.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"

    Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited June 2016

    Dave's trying to win the referendum? What a cad and bounder!
    You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.

    If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    Sean_F said:

    There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.
    NatCen's Northern Ireland sample in February this year were 75% Remain. But their 64% Remain figure for Scotland was ridiculous, so perhaps you are right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,862
    MaxPB said:

    Actually if we leave along with the other non-EMU nations it clears a lot of the obstacles for them.
    Which brings us back to my first comment. If there were no obstacles from non Eurozone countries, do you think Germany would be in a rush to make it happen in that way?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022

    There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.
    That doesn't surprise me at all. Not necessarily true but I can believe it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,693
    Sean_F said:

    There is no prospect of Northern Ireland voting 80% Remain, unless Remain hit 70%+ across the UK. If both sides are at parity across the UK, Northern Ireland will vote about 57/43% Remain.
    The DUP are pretty much pro-LEAVE, but I guess the UUP, Alliance, as well as the Nationalist SDLP and SF are all pro-REMAIN.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,401
    Sean_F said:

    Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?
    I've met Philip Lee. Genuine down-to-earth guy, also a GP, but not a rebel.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527
    John_N4 said:

    NatCen's Northern Ireland sample in February this year were 75% Remain. But their 64% Remain figure for Scotland was ridiculous, so perhaps you are right.
    More recent polling has been tighter. I would expect to see 75-80% of Unionists vote Leave together with 10% of Non-Unionists.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    FF43 said:

    That's a point of view but it doesn't seem to me to suggest an alternative to the EU. It's a case of, this is crap we want out.

    Incidentally, I disagree with your analysis that we are "holding the Eurozone countries back". I am pretty sure they are holding themselves back. No government, especially the German and French ones, wants further integration or to weaken their nation states. That big push has run its course. If you are a pessimist you could say it's stasis and an unsustainable situation. If you are an optimist you could say that integration has gone as far as it can and it will settle on the equilibrium.
    And yet on June 24th the publication of the long awaited EU military integration policy is going to be released. You say that the EU nations don't want further integration, yet their actions and words say otherwise. The UK is one of only a few countries that doesn't want to head down the superstate road. I'll agree that the ordinary German or Frenchman doesn't want to be in the superstate, but in Germany the major parties support it, in France likewise. The people aren't going to be given a chance to vote against it, not after what happened last time in France and the Netherlands (two of the most pro-EU countries at the time).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,680
    HYUFD said:



    You can also get porn on tap too after a few clicks

    Yes, yes, but who has time for that when there's another Dragon Age installment coming?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited June 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: SW1 rumour-mill: Philip Lee to come out for Remain tonight + Andrew Mitchell on Sunday. Brexiteers bemoaning "cynical coordination by No10"


    So instead of dead cats, No. 10 is throwing live rabbits on the table.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690
    Indigo said:

    You do talk some tosh Mr Eagles.

    If he sent the SAS around to blow up Leave HQ that would be trying to win the referendum as well, most people think there are acceptable limits. It seems quite a lot of the public feel that inviting foreign leaders to threaten our country is on the wrong side of those limits, we will see what they think about bribing or threatening MPs to change sides.
    MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?

    Stop taking those hyperbole pills
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,693

    MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?

    I must stop taking those hyperbole pills
    :lol:
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    Sean_F said:

    Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?
    Yes. but is his team of lawyers going with him?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    I've met Philip Lee. Genuine down-to-earth guy, also a GP, but not a rebel.


    So instead of dead cats, No. 10 is throwing live rabbits on the table.

    cynically co-ordinated, dubious whether any were ever going to vote otherwise, still effective (since Wollaston, an actual defector, "led" them).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527

    I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.

    Stodge is a pro-Leave Lib Dem.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I don't recall any polls in what feels like a while, are there some due soon?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840

    Which brings us back to my first comment. If there were no obstacles from non Eurozone countries, do you think Germany would be in a rush to make it happen in that way?
    Yes, they are forging ahead with the military integration as soon as the referendum is done, the tax harmonisation will be pushed at an EMU level where we don't have a veto and Germany is at a disadvantage to Ireland, Netherlands and Luxembourg. Within the next 20 years the EU will create a treasury and give itself direct taxation powers, faster if we vote to leave given that the UK vetoed it the last time it came up.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Sort of self defeating isn't it ?

    A cynical public will just see politicians on manoeuvres.

    Lying Tory bastards etc.
    It works once, as demonstrated by the coverage of Woolaston today. If defectors look like they're doing it out of self interest then the story will quickly move on.

    Unless of course it's one of the big names, someone who was supposed to be in one of the TV set pieces etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,554

    I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.

    There has been lots of polls over the past 10 years that showed a significant percentage of Lib Dem voters (at GE), actually saying they were going to vote UKIP in Euro elections.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    .

    MPs switching sides is like sending in The SAS to blow up Leave's HQ?

    Stop taking those hyperbole pills
    You are the one who continues to imply that any of the shameful behaviour of the PM is acceptable because he is trying to win the referendum. I like to assume your limit for piss poor behaviour is somewhat on this side of blowing up Leave HQ, but is doesn't soon like its all that far this side of it. ;)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698
    Sandpit said:

    It works once, as demonstrated by the coverage of Woolaston today. If defectors look like they're doing it out of self interest then the story will quickly move on.

    Unless of course it's one of the big names, someone who was supposed to be in one of the TV set pieces etc.
    When Wollaston defected, it was possible to give her the benefit of the doubt, and believe that it was a genuine change of heart. But Remain have over-egged it, and with all of the follow-on announcements of new Remainers, it was clear that she was part of the plan. Pathetic.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,854
    Sean_F said:

    Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?
    It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/

    More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,539

    It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.
    The plebs won't buy it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,854
    tlg86 said:

    The plebs won't buy it.
    It's clearly aimed at Tory-leaning waiverers rather than plebs. Let's just pray they don't buy it either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,401

    When Wollaston defected, it was possible to give her the benefit of the doubt, and believe that it was a genuine change of heart. But Remain have over-egged it, and with all of the follow-on announcements of new Remainers, it was clear that she was part of the plan. Pathetic.
    Not for the first time Remain have overplayed their hand.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,401
    Sandpit said:

    Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/

    More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.

    Absolutely.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    Yes, mass timed defections now just look cynical and make Wollaston look unprincipled. Not sure this is gong to be as helpful as the Remain side want it to be.

    Leave need Boris to have the night of his life tonight, surrounded by 6 women, he might just do it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z2
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Absolutely.
    Not forgetting Kate Hoey, she reaches the parts that Hannan and Gove won't.

    Really good article on the left wing case against the EU
    http://heatst.com/uk/kate-hoey-the-left-wing-case-for-brexit/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,539
    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z2

    We need more immigrants.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Absolutely.
    I wonder what Hannan makes of Vote Leave's focus on immigration, to be honest.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,886
    MaxPB said:



    And yet on June 24th the publication of the long awaited EU military integration policy is going to be released. You say that the EU nations don't want further integration, yet their actions and words say otherwise. The UK is one of only a few countries that doesn't want to head down the superstate road. I'll agree that the ordinary German or Frenchman doesn't want to be in the superstate, but in Germany the major parties support it, in France likewise. The people aren't going to be given a chance to vote against it, not after what happened last time in France and the Netherlands (two of the most pro-EU countries at the time).

    I probably overstated my case. I agree there will be some consolidation and some further opt-in integration. But a superstate won't happen any time soon. And that's a problem for the EU because it is a half-way house. So then you have to decide whether that's good because no-one has ever got this far before or bad because it's half-baked.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,854
    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Couples "delaying babies because of fears over a Brexit" - extraordinary scoop from LSE prof & @opiniumresearch https://t.co/2UaT7aU8z2

    Can only benefit the gene pool really.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    Sandpit said:

    Sensible words from Allister Heath to the Leave campaign. Let the other lot be the nasty ones.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/the-outers-must-ooze-compassion-and-reclaim-the-moral-high-groun/

    More of the likes of Gove and Hannan required, the relentlessly positive and polite.

    Yes, hopefully Boris has read this and stays relentlessly positive tonight and puts across a positive vision for what the UK would be like once it becomes independent of the EU. Taking back control means so many things, to relentlessly focus on immigration would be a mistake IMO, we need to make the economic case for leaving. Hopefully Andrew Lillico has been coaching him over the last few days.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited June 2016

    Can only benefit the gene pool really.

    Have you not seen idiocracy?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,527

    Absolutely.
    I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.

    Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats."
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,840
    FF43 said:

    I probably overstated my case. I agree there will be some consolidation and some further opt-in integration. But a superstate won't happen any time soon. And that's a problem for the EU because it is a half-way house. So then you have to decide whether that's good because no-one has ever got this far before or bad because it's half-baked.
    But it wouldn't be if we left along with the two other permanent non-EMU nations. They would be free to go as far as they want at whatever speed they want. If we are in the EU we will veto absolutely everything, especially if it is a close vote. If the UK PM allows the creation of an EU military run from Brussels we all need to start betting on UKIP most seats in 2020.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,854
    Scott_P said:

    Have you not seen idiocracy?
    Nope.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,771
    edited June 2016
    Sean_F said:

    Philip Lee I know nothing about, but Andrew Mitchell has surely always been Remain?
    Andrew Mitchell is my MP. He's been sitting firmly on the fence, but says he'll make a decision one way or the other after the debate in our town hall this Saturday. The panel is Nigel Farage, Gisela Stewart, Michael Heseltine and Paddy Ashdown. I wanted to go it, but the tickets sold out between 8:00 and 8:05 on Monday a couple of weeks ago. All bought up by pensioners and the politically engaged with time to queue and no school run or work to get to on a Monday morning. I expect a very eurosceptic audience!
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651
    Just been looking at Sarah Wollaston's voting record. TBH, I'm surprised she ever supported Leave - she appears almost always to have voted in favour of measures which would extend the power and reach of the EU and its institutions (when not absent from votes).

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes/divisions?policy=1065
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Sean_F said:

    I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.

    Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats."
    No! He should stand on the barricades and sing, "I dreamed a dream". ;)
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    edited June 2016

    There has been lots of polls over the past 10 years that showed a significant percentage of Lib Dem voters (at GE), actually saying they were going to vote UKIP in Euro elections.
    I was re-elected in my ward in May, and one thing we noticed was that UKIP prior canvass were coming over to us in big numbers. This includes the lovely couple who signed my nomination papers as proposer and seconder!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    I wonder what Hannan makes of Vote Leave's focus on immigration, to be honest.
    Probably not a lot, but understands the need to appeal to all demographics in a referendum campaign.

    I love his opening debate line that he would like to be made redundant, has any politician ever said that before?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,690

    NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HA!

    @paulwaugh: Battle to replace Ken Livingstone on Labour's NEC has reignited. @rheawolfson switching CLP to qualify for election: https://t.co/MRGQimJoSP
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,693

    Nope.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
  • It is clearly choreographed, and I feel this somewhat cheapens things. The prospect of serried ranks of 'undecided' Tory MPs listing the reasons for their carefully considered decision like so many Richard Nabavis or TSEs strikes me having limited public appeal. Sarah Wollaston did have some personal credit to spend on Remain. Andrew Mitchell not so much.
    Just keep Mitchell away from a policeman.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,401
    Sean_F said:

    I think Sean T should front the Leave campaign.

    Giving interviews explaining why Sarah Wollaston, Grant Shapps et al should be "hunted down like rats."
    Lol!
  • I've been spending a bit of time on Libdemvoice (don't laugh). Interesting views on the referendum. By no means all pro-EU fanatics. One person said their constituency party was split 50-50 on the referendum. There's a lot of pessimism about the campaign, the dominance of the Tories etc but also an increasing admission that for one reason or another working class voters are just not onside.

    The fact is that most of the regular Lib Dems that have their writings posted on LibDemBlogs assume that all Lib Dem activists are for REMAIN. The reality on the ground is different and I know of one who has delivered more than 700 LEAVE leaflets since the campaign started. It is primarily about immigration.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590

    Just keep Mitchell away from a policeman.

    Andrew Mitchell is canny enough to hold on until the last minute to see what No 10 would offer.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,573

    Andrew Mitchell is my MP. He's been sitting firmly on the fence, but says he'll make a decision one way or the other after the debate in our town hall this Saturday. The panel is Nigel Farage, Gisela Stewart, Michael Heseltine and Paddy Ashdown. I wanted to go it, but the tickets sold out between 8:00 and 8:05 on Monday a couple of weeks ago. All bought up by pensioners and the politically engaged with time to queue and no school run or work to get to on a Monday morning. I expect a very eurosceptic audience!
    If it's like the one I went to last week, then it'll be a lot of yelling Leavers who'll try to stop the panel speaking quite a bit by shouting out 'liar' and 'what about migration?" every few minutes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    I think it's clear where the Government has been putting its efforts since the imposition of purdah.

    Disgusting.
    Into convincing people to switch?

    Wasn't there a Ppc at the general election who complained about opponents trying to convince people too?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    There was a piece recently which (apparently seriously) attributed the fall in teenage pregnancy to kids spending too much time on the their phones to get round to having sex, or indeed actually meeting each other. I think computer games got a mention too.
    That almost made some sense to me, simp,y by virtue of if they are communicating electronically they may meet up less and spontaneous events are less likely.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,107

    The SNP have shrunk, relative to England & Wales, spending on both Health & Education - all the things they accuse the Tories of wanting to do, they've done themselves....
    More lies , the staffing levels are at their highest ever, what book of porkies did you get that one from. Education spending increased but spent on real education , not knitting and sewing classes for old Tories.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    test
This discussion has been closed.