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I switched over to Top gear during half-time in Soccer Aid.

I could watch Charlene Spiteri all day (I met her once) but then it cut to Evans again...

Stark_Dawning said:

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful

I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.

What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.

What happened to the bloke whose head Clarkson pulped? Is he still there?

Apparently so..

http://topgear.wikia.com/wiki/Oisin_Tymon

MarqueeMark said:

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful

I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.

What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.

He only cost the Corporation a few hundred millions a year in international sales. No biggie...

Yes but we now have a more PC compliant programme with a female and other representatives.

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

PlatoSaid said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.

Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.

The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.

Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.

However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.

Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

PlatoSaid said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.

Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.

The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.

Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.

However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.

As you say he is a Pro. He will work it out and find his place. Ditto Sabine - his laid backness and her bubbliness may well go well together. (two non-words in a sentence ending in ness. Not bad). It must be tough being the foil to the energizer bunny Evans in episode 1.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.

Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU

SeanT said:

I was thinking exactly this as I hiked the Ridgeway today, in glorious sun. it is one of the great walks of the world, so much history and beauty and wildlife and so many excellent pubs, lost in the beechwoods of the Chilterns.

And this is a 5000 year old footpath. Anyone with native British ancestry is directly related to the men and women that walked it in the Bronze Age. And does it swerve to avoid the prime minister's estate at Chequers? - does it fuck. It goes straight through, past his front door, as it should, because this is England and he is just another politician.

All along the Ridgeway there are monuments to out differentness and our freedoms and our battles with Europe, from Whiteleaf Cross, carved to commemorate defeat of the Danes in about 900AD, to Wendover, where I drank a fine cold English ale in a pub built when the town's MP was Hampden- one of the MPs whose seizure by Charles First kicked off the Civil War.

We are a distinct and insular people . We don't like being bossed around, least of all by Europeans. This truth is reasserting itself, and will prevail at some point, soon.

My favourite walk in the world for all the reasons you give, True there are other walks more beautiful or spectacular but none that convey that deep sense of ancient history of a country.

I have done the full walk from Avebury to Ivinghoe Beacon twice and have walked most of the Avebury to Goring sections many times. I never tire of it.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

MarqueeMark said:

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful

I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.

What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.

He only cost the Corporation a few hundred millions a year in international sales. No biggie...

Yes but we now have a more PC compliant programme with a female and other representatives.

When the announced the new top gear, the comment was they were only missing a disabled person...now we have seen Chris Evans in the role & we know they covered that base too......given all the shouting he must be deaf .

Tim_B said:

Stark_Dawning said:

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful

I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.

What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.

What happened to the bloke whose head Clarkson pulped? Is he still there?

Apparently so..

http://topgear.wikia.com/wiki/Oisin_Tymon

Looks weak chinned to me: the sort of chap who only ever responds to the threat of dismissal or physical persuasion. Let's face it, we've all had our problems with servants, it's just that Jeremy found an expedient way of solving his.

EPG said:

Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.

Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.

Agreed. I like referendums as they allow the public to give their view directly rather than having it interpreted by the politicians as happens too often with General Elections - 'ah you voted for us so you must agree with everything we stand for'.

peter_from_putney said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

Did you write this thread just to put an Independence Day trailer in the header, TSE? Tut, tut!

This was more an attempt to bring some levity back to PB.

Some PBers, Leavers and Remainers, are becoming a bit grumpy.

You and I both know what subject would bring gaiety to PB......

The return of JackW?

AN AV THREAD!!!!! Yaaay!!! :-)

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

PlatoSaid said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.

Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.

The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.

Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.

However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.

Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.

To be a tad more accurate, Clarkson (with some input from the other 2) did the scripts, and he was particularly anal about his Stig comments "Some say..".. But there was always room for an ad lib or two, and the challenges / adventures were always a narrative rather than a script.

That gave 'old' Top Gear a certain feeling of spontaneity and bouncing off each other about it which is completely missing from the new one.

Matt etc will get there, but I don't think Evans has the depth.

My understanding was virtually none of it was ad libbed, but it was so good because we couldn't really tell. The bad episodes were when it.felt all staged managed, when the reality was pretty much of it was.

EPG said:

Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.

Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.

There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.

Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.

The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.

By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?

MarqueeMark said:

Hmmmm..... The original Independence Day required the use of a suicide bomber to overthrow the oppressors. Bit extreme, even for Brexiteers!

Boris could be considered as a political suicide bomb.

PlatoSaid said:

Boris

You must Vote to leave the EU or wake up with the worst hangover in history

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/you-must-vote-to-leave-the-eu-or-wake-up-with-the-worst-hangover/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Leave has all the magic, Remain is so boring. Leave has to win.

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful

I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.

What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.

The BBC killed the goose that laid the golden egg and always cackled ( ......with laughter)

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.

Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU

1975.

Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.

Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.

No it was NATO as you suggest

NickPalmer said:

EPG said:

Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.

Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.

By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?

Yes. He was also passionately against postal votes because he understood the purpose of the 1872 ballot act (The one that made ballots secret) and saw postal votes as an erosion of that which reduces democracy.

SeanT said:

Tim_B said:

PlatoSaid said:

Tim_B said:

Top Gear fans -

set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?

I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2

I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.

Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.

The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.

Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.

However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.

I understood that Clarkson wrote a lot of it and made sure it was perfect. I think the difference between the two teams is previously the old team left me always wondering what the hell are they going to do next and it would be more outrageously silly and probably dramatic than the previous stunt.

The new team I couldn't give a monkeys . Drives to top of hill in reliant robin...... Gosh. Epic

LeBlanc should be narrating funerals as opposed to Top Gear.

CBS/Yougov

California Democratic Primary
Clinton 49 Sanders 47

General Election
Clinton 48 Trump 33
Sanders 55 Trump 32

New Jersey Democratic Primary
Clinton 61 Sanders 34

General Election
Clinton 49 Trump 34
Sanders 52 Trump 34

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-down-to-the-wire-in-california/

williamglenn said:

BenedictWhite said:

williamglenn said:

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.

Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU

1975.

Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.

Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.

And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.

Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,

No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.

No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.

NickPalmer said:

EPG said:

Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.

Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.

There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.

Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.

The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.

By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?

Yes I agree. I think the lack of any kind of referendum on "Europe" for over 40 years is a major driver of Leave's passion. I think personally having one on the Lisbon treaty would've served us all well. There would be less call to have this one at all, and less "this is our only chance in a lifetime" about it for Leavers (which perversely might've helped Remain). Whatever happens it would do the winning side well to note that the other side had sincerely held views that should be taken into account in terms of maybe not leaving too far if Leave win and not integrating any further should Remain win, assuming it is pretty close either way which looks likely ( further opinion polling disasters as a caveat).

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.

The wine programme was pretty funny...two middle aged men getting sloshed around France.

SeanT said:

PlatoSaid said:

Boris

You must Vote to leave the EU or wake up with the worst hangover in history

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/you-must-vote-to-leave-the-eu-or-wake-up-with-the-worst-hangover/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.

REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.

I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.

Yes, I expect a UKIP poll lead by September if Remain scrape home

SeanT said:

The £ has just plunged

http://news.forexlive.com/!/brexit-poll-sinks-gbp-in-early-trading-as-liquidity-arrives-20160605

Plunged is an odd way of putting it. The pound has been that volatile since 2008.

HYUFD said:

SeanT said:

PlatoSaid said:

Boris

You must Vote to leave the EU or wake up with the worst hangover in history

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/you-must-vote-to-leave-the-eu-or-wake-up-with-the-worst-hangover/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.

REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.

I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.

Yes, I expect a UKIP poll lead by September if Remain scrape home

I'd offer you a bet on that, but I couldn't bear to take your money.

SeanT said:

The £ has just plunged

http://news.forexlive.com/!/brexit-poll-sinks-gbp-in-early-trading-as-liquidity-arrives-20160605

Oh goody. There's some of us really want a lower Pound and higher interest rates - seriously.

SeanT said:

PlatoSaid said:

Boris

You must Vote to leave the EU or wake up with the worst hangover in history

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/you-must-vote-to-leave-the-eu-or-wake-up-with-the-worst-hangover/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.

REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.

I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.

I think Leave may well just fall short.

That's better than I expected a few months ago - when I thought a 58:42 result was in the offing - but no doubt it will be very disappointing.

Still might be a clear win for Remain, of course. It depends how strong all the Leavers backbones are, as well of those as the late deciders for Leave.

I am hoping they are 100% solid. But, I fear, it is just that.. a hope.

BenedictWhite said:

williamglenn said:

BenedictWhite said:

williamglenn said:

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.

Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU

1975.

Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.

Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.

And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.

Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,

No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.

No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.

The most important - West Germany, France, Italy and later the UK were.

welshowl said:

SeanT said:

The £ has just plunged

http://news.forexlive.com/!/brexit-poll-sinks-gbp-in-early-trading-as-liquidity-arrives-20160605

Oh goody. There's some of us really want a lower Pound and higher interest rates - seriously.

Not just before the Summer holidays and of course it will play into remain's rising mortgage rates narrative

SeanT said:

The £ has just plunged

http://news.forexlive.com/!/brexit-poll-sinks-gbp-in-early-trading-as-liquidity-arrives-20160605

Is that TSE Midnight poll?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.

The wine programme was pretty funny...two middle aged men getting sloshed around France.

- and May with his wine bullshit whistle when Oz got carried away about bouquet, nose etc

Moses_ said:

Gonna be a landslide for Remain now

Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.

http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit

Well he did back the winning side in indyref!

Moses_ said:

Gonna be a landslide for Remain now

Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.

http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit

He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics

welshowl said:

SeanT said:

The £ has just plunged

http://news.forexlive.com/!/brexit-poll-sinks-gbp-in-early-trading-as-liquidity-arrives-20160605

Oh goody. There's some of us really want a lower Pound and higher interest rates - seriously.

Indeed. Why does everybody think it's always borrowers/spenders that we have to be concerned about?

There ARE actually savers though you wouldn't think it from the way policy makers behave...

PeterC said:

BBC Parliamentb channel superb blockbuster on 1975 EEC Referendum. Benn vs Jenkins on Panorama - the debate is vastly superior to the nonsense we have had this year.

Stupid arguments based on fear win elections. GE 2015. You can't blame politicians for trying to win.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

May was the lynchpin that held it together

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Moses_ said:

Gonna be a landslide for Remain now

Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.

http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit

He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics

Have you been living under a rock?

williamglenn said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Reply timb

Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.

May was the lynchpin that held it together

The government would be lost without her. Oh, you mean Top Gear...

Of course - only major topics discussed on here

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Moses_ said:

Gonna be a landslide for Remain now

Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.

http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit

He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics

How can you not have known that? He has being at the forefront of just about every failed political campaign of the last decade. I think the only one he was on the sinning side for was Scotland. I am hoping he keeps up his almost perfect record.

That's too good to have been a typo!

williamglenn said:

BenedictWhite said:

williamglenn said:

BenedictWhite said:

williamglenn said:

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.

Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU

1975.

Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.

Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.

And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.

Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,

No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.

No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.

The most important - West Germany, France, Italy and later the UK were.

The USA, Canada and Norway?

SeanT said:

welshowl said:

NickPalmer said:

EPG said:

Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.

Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.

There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.

Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.

The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.

By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?

Yes I agree. I think the lack of any kind of referendum on "Europe" for over 40 years is a major driver of Leave's passion. I think personally having one on the Lisbon treaty would've served us all well. There would be less call to have this one at all, and less "this is our only chance in a lifetime" about it for Leavers (which perversely might've helped Remain). Whatever happens it would do the winning side well to note that the other side had sincerely held views that should be taken into account in terms of maybe not leaving too far if Leave win and not integrating any further should Remain win, assuming it is pretty close either way which looks likely ( further opinion polling disasters as a caveat).

Absolutely right. All this sturm und drang could have been avoided if europhiles (like NPXMP) hadn't been such a bunch of devious shits, and had given us a referendum earlier, as they so often promised to do.

We could have kicked the Lisbon Treaty into touch and the EU might have reformed in a more democratic manner.

Specifically what democratic reform do you think you'd have got by killing the Lisbon Treaty?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BenedictWhite said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Moses_ said:

Gonna be a landslide for Remain now

Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.

http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit

He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics

Have you been living under a rock?

Probably - not into celebrities or similar

If you follow politics you can't have failed to notice him pop up for every lefty cause going, I am not into celebrities also.