The print media will finally pick sides: Telegraph, Sun, Mail and Express vs. FT, Times, Evening Standard, Guardian and Independent.
I'm still not sure about the Times: could go either way. Otherwise agreed
The Times is a mainstream centre/centre-right establishment newspaper read by ABs.
I'm 80% sure it'll come out for Remain (albeit reluctantly) - there's a chance it might fence sit, but I don't think that's the sort of newspaper The Times is.
Murdoch will hedge his bets, the Times will be for Remain and the Sun for Leave. He has done it before, at the general election the English Sun backed the Tories, the Scottish Sun backed the SNP
I've got a bet on this with Rob Smithson.
He thinks a majority of the Sun, Sun on Sunday, Times and Sunday Times will go REMAIN, I've wagered the opposite (IIRC, we might also have bet on the Mail and Mail on Sunday)
I now reckon it will be a dead rubber. 50/50
Sun will go LEAVE, as will the Times
Their Sunday sisters will go REMAIN
Interesting but why split the Sundays and the dailies when their readership have largely the same voting patterns? There is a much sharper divide between Times and Sun readers, according to Yougov 62% of Times readers back Remain and 38% Leave but with Sun readers the figures are reversed with 71% backing Leave and just 29% Remain http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/
An endorsement on the Thursday morning is going to carry more weight than one the previous Sunday.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful
I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.
What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.
What happened to the bloke whose head Clarkson pulped? Is he still there?
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful
I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.
What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.
He only cost the Corporation a few hundred millions a year in international sales. No biggie...
Yes but we now have a more PC compliant programme with a female and other representatives.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Of course, she could have toned it down and said something like - "Britain has a number of interests overseas. Should some jumped up country decide to take its chances with one of our territories, we will be able to count on the unconditional support of our European allies."
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
As you say he is a Pro. He will work it out and find his place. Ditto Sabine - his laid backness and her bubbliness may well go well together. (two non-words in a sentence ending in ness. Not bad). It must be tough being the foil to the energizer bunny Evans in episode 1.
I was thinking exactly this as I hiked the Ridgeway today, in glorious sun. it is one of the great walks of the world, so much history and beauty and wildlife and so many excellent pubs, lost in the beechwoods of the Chilterns.
And this is a 5000 year old footpath. Anyone with native British ancestry is directly related to the men and women that walked it in the Bronze Age. And does it swerve to avoid the prime minister's estate at Chequers? - does it fuck. It goes straight through, past his front door, as it should, because this is England and he is just another politician.
All along the Ridgeway there are monuments to out differentness and our freedoms and our battles with Europe, from Whiteleaf Cross, carved to commemorate defeat of the Danes in about 900AD, to Wendover, where I drank a fine cold English ale in a pub built when the town's MP was Hampden- one of the MPs whose seizure by Charles First kicked off the Civil War.
We are a distinct and insular people . We don't like being bossed around, least of all by Europeans. This truth is reasserting itself, and will prevail at some point, soon.
My favourite walk in the world for all the reasons you give, True there are other walks more beautiful or spectacular but none that convey that deep sense of ancient history of a country.
I have done the full walk from Avebury to Ivinghoe Beacon twice and have walked most of the Avebury to Goring sections many times. I never tire of it.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Of course, she could have toned it down and said something like - "Britain has a number of interests overseas. Should some jumped up country decide to take its chances with one of our territories, we will be able to count on the unconditional support of our European allies."
And she'd have been wrong.
Britain didn't give unconditional support to Germany uniting its territory.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful
I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.
What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.
He only cost the Corporation a few hundred millions a year in international sales. No biggie...
Yes but we now have a more PC compliant programme with a female and other representatives.
When the announced the new top gear, the comment was they were only missing a disabled person...now we have seen Chris Evans in the role & we know they covered that base too......given all the shouting he must be deaf .
The print media will finally pick sides: Telegraph, Sun, Mail and Express vs. FT, Times, Evening Standard, Guardian and Independent.
I'm still not sure about the Times: could go either way. Otherwise agreed
The Times is a mainstream centre/centre-right establishment newspaper read by ABs.
I'm 80% sure it'll come out for Remain (albeit reluctantly) - there's a chance it might fence sit, but I don't think that's the sort of newspaper The Times is.
Murdoch will hedge his bets, the Times will be for Remain and the Sun for Leave. He has done it before, at the general election the English Sun backed the Tories, the Scottish Sun backed the SNP
I've got a bet on this with Rob Smithson.
He thinks a majority of the Sun, Sun on Sunday, Times and Sunday Times will go REMAIN, I've wagered the opposite (IIRC, we might also have bet on the Mail and Mail on Sunday)
I now reckon it will be a dead rubber. 50/50
Sun will go LEAVE, as will the Times
Their Sunday sisters will go REMAIN
Interesting but why split the Sundays and the dailies when their readership have largely the same voting patterns? There is a much sharper divide between Times and Sun readers, according to Yougov 62% of Times readers back Remain and 38% Leave but with Sun readers the figures are reversed with 71% backing Leave and just 29% Remain http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/
An endorsement on the Thursday morning is going to carry more weight than one the previous Sunday.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.
To be a tad more accurate, Clarkson (with some input from the other 2) did the scripts, and he was particularly anal about his Stig comments "Some say..".. But there was always room for an ad lib or two, and the challenges / adventures were always a narrative rather than a script.
That gave 'old' Top Gear a certain feeling of spontaneity and bouncing off each other about it which is completely missing from the new one.
Matt etc will get there, but I don't think Evans has the depth.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful
I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.
What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.
What happened to the bloke whose head Clarkson pulped? Is he still there?
Looks weak chinned to me: the sort of chap who only ever responds to the threat of dismissal or physical persuasion. Let's face it, we've all had our problems with servants, it's just that Jeremy found an expedient way of solving his.
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
Agreed. I like referendums as they allow the public to give their view directly rather than having it interpreted by the politicians as happens too often with General Elections - 'ah you voted for us so you must agree with everything we stand for'.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.
To be a tad more accurate, Clarkson (with some input from the other 2) did the scripts, and he was particularly anal about his Stig comments "Some say..".. But there was always room for an ad lib or two, and the challenges / adventures were always a narrative rather than a script.
That gave 'old' Top Gear a certain feeling of spontaneity and bouncing off each other about it which is completely missing from the new one.
Matt etc will get there, but I don't think Evans has the depth.
My understanding was virtually none of it was ad libbed, but it was so good because we couldn't really tell. The bad episodes were when it.felt all staged managed, when the reality was pretty much of it was.
he was particularly anal about his Stig comments "Some say.."..
That was my least favourite bit.
It wasn't in the first series.
Yes, my mother told me about it.......
My least favorite bit was the 'star in car' interview, as I'd never heard of many of them. But he'd usually get some snippet of amusing info from them and it would be amusing.
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Wasn't it more to do with the triumph of capitalism over communism?
I shall be publishing a EURef poll at one minute past midnight.
I look forward to it.
In the meantime, would anyone like to tell me how much mining has gone on at this location (Parys Mountain on Anglesey) over the past 30 years under Anglesey Mining plc?
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
The Twitter reaction: this is initially rather better, but No, on reflection, still awful
I think the BBC has just realised that millions of people aren't THAT interested in cars - viewers just found Clarkson, May and Hammond surprisingly funny and endearing, even if they were also annoying.
What a dreadful fuck up. Its ever more noticeable that the man responsible for sacking Clarkson - Danny Cohen - has already departed the Corporation.
The BBC killed the goose that laid the golden egg and always cackled ( ......with laughter)
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Wasn't it more to do with the triumph of capitalism over communism?
"The role of Ronald Reagan had been deliberately diminished; the role of the Europeans, who, with the exception of Helmet Kohl, were often keen to undermine America when it mattered, had been sanitized; and the role of Mr. Gorbachev, who had failed spectacularly in his declared objective of saving communism and the Soviet Union, had been absurdly misunderstood." - Margaret Thatcher, writing in Statecraft, 2002
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Yes. He was also passionately against postal votes because he understood the purpose of the 1872 ballot act (The one that made ballots secret) and saw postal votes as an erosion of that which reduces democracy.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
Clarkson wrote the scripts & was totally anal over them. I have no idea if Evans is writing for new top gear, but TFI Friday used to be knocked together in the pub.with danny Baker the afternoon before the show.
To be a tad more accurate, Clarkson (with some input from the other 2) did the scripts, and he was particularly anal about his Stig comments "Some say..".. But there was always room for an ad lib or two, and the challenges / adventures were always a narrative rather than a script.
That gave 'old' Top Gear a certain feeling of spontaneity and bouncing off each other about it which is completely missing from the new one.
Matt etc will get there, but I don't think Evans has the depth.
My understanding was virtually none of it was ad libbed, but it was so good because we couldn't really tell. The bad episodes were when it.felt all staged managed, when the reality was pretty much of it was.
I meant ad lib in the sense of inserting an unscripted line or two rather than going completely off script for the studio bits.
For the adventures / challenges there was much more leeway, particularly in the 'action' bits rather than the set pieces.
Of course the fact that they knew each other backwards and sideways, and played to their personalities helped. Clarkson the iconoclast had his over the top, POWER, and MORE IS BETTER approach, May was always "Hello viewers, and as you can see I've done this the right way", and then there was the eternally optimistic, energetic, irrepressible, and occasionally irritating little brummie.
Clarkson and May were able to carry their own various separate series well, Hamster struggled a bit.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.
set my expectations for tomorrow night - is the second episode better, the same, or worse than the first one?
I know there are changes coming along for episode 3 as a result of 'feedback', but they had already shot ep. 2
I glanced at Twitter, still not popular. Some big changes needed.
Matt will be great - he has just the light touch and self-deprecating humor needed. Sabine will be great.
The problem is Evans. He has no persona, no on-screen presence, and doesn't do empathy. Otherwise than he's a gear head I don't understand for the life of me what he's doing fronting Top Gear.
Matt Le Blanc is also quite wooden, let's be honest. Overly deadpan. He's just good in comparison to Evans.
However Le Blanc is a fine professional comic actor, and will respond to a decent script. What mystifies me is how the scripting has got so awful, so suddenly.
I understood that Clarkson wrote a lot of it and made sure it was perfect. I think the difference between the two teams is previously the old team left me always wondering what the hell are they going to do next and it would be more outrageously silly and probably dramatic than the previous stunt.
The new team I couldn't give a monkeys . Drives to top of hill in reliant robin...... Gosh. Epic
LeBlanc should be narrating funerals as opposed to Top Gear.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
'Keeping the peace' and prevailing aren't the same thing.
Both sides were well aware of the mutually assured destruction when starting a war.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.
No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
They'll be done for when the sovereign debt crisis gets under way from January next year leading to the collapse of the Euro and the EU in 2018 / 2019. I'd rather we vote leave now obviously, but I see exactly the same scenario as you in the horrible event of remain winning. And those people admitting they voted remain on the 23rd June 2016 will be very thin on the ground indeed.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
This article is from the 5th February and while it is true he is not as popular as he was he still has 175 MP's on his side and a good percentage of the membership. Also why does it matter as he is standing down in due course
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
Clarkson did an excellent documentary on the PQ 17 WW2 convoy to Russia.
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Yes I agree. I think the lack of any kind of referendum on "Europe" for over 40 years is a major driver of Leave's passion. I think personally having one on the Lisbon treaty would've served us all well. There would be less call to have this one at all, and less "this is our only chance in a lifetime" about it for Leavers (which perversely might've helped Remain). Whatever happens it would do the winning side well to note that the other side had sincerely held views that should be taken into account in terms of maybe not leaving too far if Leave win and not integrating any further should Remain win, assuming it is pretty close either way which looks likely ( further opinion polling disasters as a caveat).
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
Cameron and Osborne will be gone.
There will be a probably-LEAVE PM and all the Tories currently moaning will run back to her/him given the alternative of letting Corbyn win. Corbyn and his party think nuclear weapons should be replaced with beehives.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.
The wine programme was pretty funny...two middle aged men getting sloshed around France.
This article is from the 5th February and while it is true he is not as popular as he was he still has 175 MP's on his side and a good percentage of the membership. Also why does it matter as he is standing down in due course
Oh dear. That's what happens when you're obsessively Googling anti-Remain stories. Dates get lost in the blur.
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
Yes, I expect a UKIP poll lead by September if Remain scrape home
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Direct democracy is good for social issues and matters of public debate like the EU. It is terrible for monetary policy as the inevitable result is that voters award themselves tax cuts and spending increases leading to the eventual bankruptcy for the state -cf California.
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
Yes, I expect a UKIP poll lead by September if Remain scrape home
I'd offer you a bet on that, but I couldn't bear to take your money.
This referendum does seem to be raising some passions. I walked past Tescos yesterday and the local chapter of UKIP were out in force and having a very animated argument with some chaps with Remain leaflets
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
Clarkson did an excellent documentary on the PQ 17 WW2 convoy to Russia.
Not seen it but heard it was good. Just proves my point about May and Clarkson.
Oddly, whenever BBC America does a TG compilation show - best stunts, worst disasters, best adventures etc - it's always Hamster who is the emcee, except LeBlanc for the races one.
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
I think Leave may well just fall short.
That's better than I expected a few months ago - when I thought a 58:42 result was in the offing - but no doubt it will be very disappointing.
Still might be a clear win for Remain, of course. It depends how strong all the Leavers backbones are, as well of those as the late deciders for Leave.
I am hoping they are 100% solid. But, I fear, it is just that.. a hope.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
Clarkson did an excellent documentary on the PQ 17 WW2 convoy to Russia.
Can you imagine trying to pitch the reassembler...
so what I want to do is take apart a well known item, then film me putting it back together...
And then what...
well thats it...
And this will be like a 1 min speeded up short that is popular on social media...
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.
No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.
The most important - West Germany, France, Italy and later the UK were.
BBC Parliamentb channel superb blockbuster on 1975 EEC Referendum. Benn vs Jenkins on Panorama - the debate is vastly superior to the nonsense we have had this year.
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Yes I agree. I think the lack of any kind of referendum on "Europe" for over 40 years is a major driver of Leave's passion. I think personally having one on the Lisbon treaty would've served us all well. There would be less call to have this one at all, and less "this is our only chance in a lifetime" about it for Leavers (which perversely might've helped Remain). Whatever happens it would do the winning side well to note that the other side had sincerely held views that should be taken into account in terms of maybe not leaving too far if Leave win and not integrating any further should Remain win, assuming it is pretty close either way which looks likely ( further opinion polling disasters as a caveat).
Absolutely right. All this sturm und drang could have been avoided if europhiles (like NPXMP) hadn't been such a bunch of devious shits, and had given us a referendum earlier, as they so often promised to do.
We could have kicked the Lisbon Treaty into touch and the EU might have reformed in a more democratic manner.
Interesting that Mr. Palmer commends referenda (Swiss style) downthread but, IIRC, had all sorts of reasons why we couldn't have one on the Lisbon Treaty back in 2008-2009.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
He also did some cooking stuff on youtube. He has talent, no doubt about it. I enjoyed his wine show with Oz Clarke too.
The wine programme was pretty funny...two middle aged men getting sloshed around France.
- and May with his wine bullshit whistle when Oz got carried away about bouquet, nose etc
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.
No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.
The most important - West Germany, France, Italy and later the UK were.
The thing that was shown was that capitalism worked. That didn't require the EEC.
Oh goody. There's some of us really want a lower Pound and higher interest rates - seriously.
I honestly don't understand this obsession with the value of the pound.
We have a free-floating currency. It goes up, it goes down. It was mildly irritating when it sank close to parity with the euro in the 2008-2010 period, and I went to France for a mini-break and had to pay a few more cents for my croissant, but it also helped make our exports cheaper and our economy recover more quickly.
BBC Parliamentb channel superb blockbuster on 1975 EEC Referendum. Benn vs Jenkins on Panorama - the debate is vastly superior to the nonsense we have had this year.
Stupid arguments based on fear win elections. GE 2015. You can't blame politicians for trying to win.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
Brilliant from Boris. Unfortunately, that is also what I expect to happen, right down to Juncker's extra glass of champagne.
REMAIN will narrowly win, then the EU will carry on grinding our democracy into dust, and the people will feel ashamed and remorseful, and they will take their revenge on Cameron and Osborne. It will be like the Scots post indyref, but much much worse, as the Scots, at least, got more powers following NO. We will have more powers taken away from us following IN.
I do not see how REMAINIANS can possibly avoid this. The only hope for them - as career politicians - is that they lose.
Yes, I expect a UKIP poll lead by September if Remain scrape home
I'd offer you a bet on that, but I couldn't bear to take your money.
I wouldn't bet much on it but there is a distinct possibility at least 1 poll, maybe yougov, has figures something like UKIP 30%, Tories 27%, Labour 25%, LD 5% if Leave voters wish to signal their anger
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
May was the lynchpin that held it together
The government would be lost without her. Oh, you mean Top Gear...
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
May was the lynchpin that held it together
The government would be lost without her. Oh, you mean Top Gear...
He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics
How can you not have known that? He has being at the forefront of just about every failed political campaign of the last decade. I think the only one he was on the sinning side for was Scotland. I am hoping he keeps up his almost perfect record.
He was surprisingly good in his interview, I didn't realise he is so into politics
How can you not have known that? He has being at the forefront of just about every failed political campaign of the last decade. I think the only one he was on the sinning side for was Scotland. I am hoping he keeps up his almost perfect record.
Thatcher making the exact same argument as Dave. The EC stops another world war.
Thatcher happily supported the EEC and the Common Market, she did not support the EU
1975.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
And the West didn't prevail because our warheads were shinier but because our political and economic system was stronger. Not a bad result for the EEC.
Actually is was because of the USA mostly being much more economically strong than the USSR,
No doubt, but the front line was Europe. If the Western European countries had not made a demonstrable success of their societies and their economies, we would not have made it from 1945 to 1989 with Western unity in tact. You have to give some credit to the EEC.
No, many countries in that western capitalist pact were not in the EU.
The most important - West Germany, France, Italy and later the UK were.
Oh goody. There's some of us really want a lower Pound and higher interest rates - seriously.
I honestly don't understand this obsession with the value of the pound.
We have a free-floating currency. It goes up, it goes down. It was mildly irritating when it sank close to parity with the euro in the 2008-2010 period, and I went to France for a mini-break and had to pay a few more cents for my croissant, but it also helped make our exports cheaper and our economy recover more quickly.
So does it really matter?
It also makes all our necessary imports such as food and things we no longer make like steel and ships and coal more expensive so of course it matters . It does mean the pound in your pocket is worth less .
Don't laugh immediately, but Britain needs to have more referendums.
Swiss and Irish have referendums all the time about European and other topics, and they don't seem to get as bitter. Maybe people accept that they will often be on the opposite side to friends and colleagues.
There's a lot in that. And there's a well-accepted tradition that strong losers get concessions - e.g. after 40% voted to abolish the armed forces, the Government acknowledged the concern by reducing the military budget.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
Yes I agree. I think the lack of any kind of referendum on "Europe" for over 40 years is a major driver of Leave's passion. I think personally having one on the Lisbon treaty would've served us all well. There would be less call to have this one at all, and less "this is our only chance in a lifetime" about it for Leavers (which perversely might've helped Remain). Whatever happens it would do the winning side well to note that the other side had sincerely held views that should be taken into account in terms of maybe not leaving too far if Leave win and not integrating any further should Remain win, assuming it is pretty close either way which looks likely ( further opinion polling disasters as a caveat).
Absolutely right. All this sturm und drang could have been avoided if europhiles (like NPXMP) hadn't been such a bunch of devious shits, and had given us a referendum earlier, as they so often promised to do.
We could have kicked the Lisbon Treaty into touch and the EU might have reformed in a more democratic manner.
Specifically what democratic reform do you think you'd have got by killing the Lisbon Treaty?
Comments
I could watch Charlene Spiteri all day (I met her once) but then it cut to Evans again...
http://topgear.wikia.com/wiki/Oisin_Tymon
And she'd have been wrong.
I have done the full walk from Avebury to Ivinghoe Beacon twice and have walked most of the Avebury to Goring sections many times. I never tire of it.
Soviet Union and NATO pointing hundreds or thousands of nuclear warheads at each other.
Obviously, it was the EEC that kept the peace.
That gave 'old' Top Gear a certain feeling of spontaneity and bouncing off each other about it which is completely missing from the new one.
Matt etc will get there, but I don't think Evans has the depth.
You must Vote to leave the EU or wake up with the worst hangover in history
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/you-must-vote-to-leave-the-eu-or-wake-up-with-the-worst-hangover/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
It wasn't in the first series.
My least favorite bit was the 'star in car' interview, as I'd never heard of many of them. But he'd usually get some snippet of amusing info from them and it would be amusing.
Presumably the equivalent would be if a Brexit government followed a narrow win by becoming closely aligned through the EEA, or Cameron won and announced a programme of robust scepticism.
The other charm of the Swiss system is that it gives small or extreme groups something constructive to do, since the tradition is that every proposal is considered on its merits, not on whether you like the proponents. For instance, the Basel Communist Party (vote share less than 0.5%) successfully got a proposal through to halt further development of inner-city car parks on environmental grounds.
By the way, enjoyed Benedict on the last thread arguing that George Galloway's motivation for supporting Leave is his passion for democracy. You sure about that?
In the meantime, would anyone like to tell me how much mining has gone on at this location (Parys Mountain on Anglesey) over the past 30 years under Anglesey Mining plc?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Parys+Mountain/@53.3864798,-4.3492706,931m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48645230e6b81985:0xbb727308e1fd86ab!8m2!3d53.3833333!4d-4.35!5m1!1e4
- Margaret Thatcher, writing in Statecraft, 2002
For the adventures / challenges there was much more leeway, particularly in the 'action' bits rather than the set pieces.
Of course the fact that they knew each other backwards and sideways, and played to their personalities helped. Clarkson the iconoclast had his over the top, POWER, and MORE IS BETTER approach, May was always "Hello viewers, and as you can see I've done this the right way", and then there was the eternally optimistic, energetic, irrepressible, and occasionally irritating little brummie.
Clarkson and May were able to carry their own various separate series well, Hamster struggled a bit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12142436/David-Cameron-is-showing-the-arrogance-of-a-dictator-in-his-contempt-for-Tory-members.html
The new team I couldn't give a monkeys . Drives to top of hill in reliant robin...... Gosh. Epic
LeBlanc should be narrating funerals as opposed to Top Gear.
California Democratic Primary
Clinton 49 Sanders 47
General Election
Clinton 48 Trump 33
Sanders 55 Trump 32
New Jersey Democratic Primary
Clinton 61 Sanders 34
General Election
Clinton 49 Trump 34
Sanders 52 Trump 34
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-down-to-the-wire-in-california/
Both sides were well aware of the mutually assured destruction when starting a war.
A bit like the UK and EU engaging in a trade war.
Recently May even made putting together an old lawnmower from component parts interesting...the reassembler series sounded like it should be like watching paint dry, but was actually really good & all down to how good May was.
There will be a probably-LEAVE PM and all the Tories currently moaning will run back to her/him given the alternative of letting Corbyn win. Corbyn and his party think nuclear weapons should be replaced with beehives.
Oddly, whenever BBC America does a TG compilation show - best stunts, worst disasters, best adventures etc - it's always Hamster who is the emcee, except LeBlanc for the races one.
That's better than I expected a few months ago - when I thought a 58:42 result was in the offing - but no doubt it will be very disappointing.
Still might be a clear win for Remain, of course. It depends how strong all the Leavers backbones are, as well of those as the late deciders for Leave.
I am hoping they are 100% solid. But, I fear, it is just that.. a hope.
so what I want to do is take apart a well known item, then film me putting it back together...
And then what...
well thats it...
And this will be like a 1 min speeded up short that is popular on social media...
no, 30 mins....
Eddie Izzard Joins Calls To Reject Brexit
The comedian backs Remain during the South Bank Sky Arts Awards ceremony.
http://news.sky.com/story/1707379/eddie-izzard-joins-calls-to-reject-brexit
Quintessential English things, rotary telephone, lawnmower, cheap knock-off electric guitar...
There ARE actually savers though you wouldn't think it from the way policy makers behave...
We have a free-floating currency. It goes up, it goes down. It was mildly irritating when it sank close to parity with the euro in the 2008-2010 period, and I went to France for a mini-break and had to pay a few more cents for my croissant, but it also helped make our exports cheaper and our economy recover more quickly.
So does it really matter?
It also makes all our necessary imports such as food and things we no longer make like steel and ships and coal more expensive so of course it matters .
It does mean the pound in your pocket is worth less .
This profile for USA readers is epic
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-too-is-infected-with-political-silliness/2016/06/03/77560a20-28e8-11e6-b989-4e5479715b54_story.html