Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Just been thinking about Dave and his re-negotiation.. Europe gave Dave sweet feck all and Dave had to dress it up as a deal worth voting for. If we end up leaving it wont be Dave's fault, though he will carry the can for it. Frankly, out is looking more appealing by the minute but at the moment I still think in is better for the UK and will vote accordingly
If I remotely believed the status quo with Europe would remain that I would have (grumpily) voted to Remain. As it is, the Eurozone needs to integrate to work better, and there's an institutional bias in Brussels for further integration. It doesn't seem to me to be in Britain''s interests to dilute even further what makes us unique - our traditions, which I have highly, are just too different to Continental Europe.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
The Lib Dems did make a serious difference in achieving a more nearly equal level of income across the population. But since then...?
With David Clegg and George Clegg in the driving seat it's difficult to notice what changed.
How about, for a start, the centralisation of power, the castration of local government and the savage cutting of services at the local level?
The alternative being what ? Continuing to borrow even more money than the ridiculous amount we are borrowing at the moment. The UK is continuing to borrow every year 26 times more than the complete annual government spending of the country of 100m people in which I am living.
Ah! The answer! People are angry because they're ignorant - about economics, anyway. And also demography. Spit it out, Indigo - what you really want is a referendum to decriminalise killing lefties, isn't it?
I think we should consider a referendum on outlawing whatever it is you smoke before you start posting this sort of claptrap
I notice you don't deny what I suggested. I only bother to come here to remind myself that the electorate has its full share of overgrown three-year-olds.
You'd find a mirror less expensive and time consuming.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
Hasn't Cameron given away one of our vetoes too?
Not sure, but either way not enough floating voters are going to know about it to materially affect the referendum result.
John Major appears to be extracting his revenge on the Bastards live on Marr right now
Is he still bitter that three million people didn't lose their jobs as he promised they would if Britain left the ERM ?
Or that the car factories didn't shut down or that the City didn't relocate to Frankfurt or that sterling didn't 'become as worthless as the Ukrainian Coupon'.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
so growing strongly only in comparison to the falls of the previous decade rather than the rises which happened in the century beforehand.
Is the first table not inflation adjusted? I think it is. In which case real pay is growing slightly ahead of productivity growth at present having lagged it for a while. its not special but it is not an obvious source of anger either.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
"Not Part Of A Superstate" is precisely the deal that Dave achieved.
I don't mind if people, a la Gove, understand the deal but think the ECJ will strike it down (a bonkers proposition but with a tenuous relationship with reality).
But not to understand, or perhaps even not having read the deal and then to criticise it is wasting everyone's time.
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
If be delighted to see Ireland reunited, but only when a majority in the North want that to happen. In Scotland goes its own way I'd be disappointed but it's up to them. I doubt Gib wants to join Spain but, again, that's their business
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
The Project or whatever isn't really the issue here, although ending free movement of people would have certainly attracted opposition from EU maximalists on principle, and the EU Parliament my well have killed it had it got that far. The bigger problem for a referendum-swinging change was that the EU is made up of independent nation states, and they all have to agree if you want to change something fundamental.
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
The thing is, these people show absolutely no humility or sense of awareness what so ever. When it comes to Europe they have been wrong at pretty much every turn for the past 40 years, yet still they expect to be taken seriously.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
Actually Juncker was prepared to offer the UK 'semi-detached' status. He wasn't prepared to countenance the end of freedom of movement, but everything else was pretty much on the table, and with some changes to the benefits system, I think a solution could have been arrived at that satisfied the vast majority. Cameron refused. He's a high stakes player, and believed (probably correctly) that he could 'dock the UK to the EU' permanently without a major change in the status of our membership.
That story was out some days ago and no debate will happen with Steve Hilton. There is nearly a debate every day till the referendum with Sturgeon v Boris rumoured and Kahn v Boris at Wembley a couple of days before the referendum. Outside the bubble Steve Hilton is unknown
No-one is suggesting that "we're all congenitally free-market oriented Thatcherites", but the centre has moved way to the right from where it was when we had the supertax, currency controls and nostalgia for Empire.
Which of the facts I stated above do you dispute?
PS Sounds like you have a pretty low opinion of the UK and the British. I suggest you travel a bit more, get some perspective and appreciate the UK for the wonderful place it is.
Is it purely a coincidence that the centre of gravity shifted to the right during the period after the UK joined the Common Market? Those facts may be more connected than they appear.
As for me, I've travelled and lived on several continents and have plenty of perspective about the UK. But I'm not complacent.
This is certainly a real contest now... I'm expecting REMAIN will still scrape through in the end but this is a real fight for the destiny of this country, hence Camerons increasingly tetchy public appearances. He's rattled.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I note that the journalist who wrote that story coincidently has an exclusive interview with Cameron in the same edition.
If be delighted to see Ireland reunited, but only when a majority in the North want that to happen. In Scotland goes its own way I'd be disappointed but it's up to them. I doubt Gib wants to join Spain but, again, that's their business
The problem with Gib is that the Treaty of Utrecht specifies that if we cede sovereignty, Spain has first refusal.
In the eighteenth century compositions were occasionally commissioned to celebrate the signing of treaties; here's the one for Utrecht:
Leave are successfully exploiting generalised discontent for its own ends and it is human nature for people to want to believe anyone who tells them their problems will be sorted out if they just do as they say - i.e. leave the EU
If Leave win I fully expect the fickle public to be blaming Brexit for all their woes within a year or two.
Yes, and Leavers will be severely punished at the polls.
Leave is prospering because Germany didnt think we would do what we said we would do. Get a better deal or leave. It was ever thus. We said we would defend Belgium and said the same again over Poland twenty five years later. They thought we didnt mean it. Had Angela given the merest fig leaf of a concession in the renegotiation Cameron would be in the clear by now.As it is he is facing a truly historic defeat. I like Germans and their country.They seem the most like us of any of them. Yet they consistently think we dont mean what we say, against all the evidence of history. When we leave thank or blame Angela.
There is nothing Merkel could offered Cameron to make a meaningful difference to the referendum result that wouldn't have been vetoed by another member state.
It would have required a majority of governments to contemplate an alternative to More Europe, and that was never going to happen in the available timescale.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
"Not Part Of A Superstate" is precisely the deal that Dave achieved.
I don't mind if people, a la Gove, understand the deal but think the ECJ will strike it down (a bonkers proposition but with a tenuous relationship with reality).
But not to understand, or perhaps even not having read the deal and then to criticise it is wasting everyone's time.
I don't think he did achieve that. If the practice of the EU is to draw powers to the centre, and mission creep (and I'd argue that it is) then I don't think it makes much difference if we get a formal opt out from Ever Closer Union. Micromanagement is simply part of the EU's DNA.
I'd say that the choice is between Not Part of a Superstate, and Continued Struggle not to be absorbed into a Superstate on 23rd June.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I note that the journalist who wrote that story coincidently has an exclusive interview with Cameron in the same edition.
Fancy That!
The Mail on Sunday is the counter balance to the Daily Mail, surprisingly
I like to think of BREXIT as the Little Guy versus the Big Guy. Plucky little Britain standing up to the leering EU Goliath.
Or, at the more personal level: individual Britons, from all walks of life, standing up to Dave, George and Jean-Claude and their EU gang.
And maybe at the same time we can show all those countries like Greece that have been so bullied and brought to ruins by the EU that there IS a way out if they so choose (all be it it's more difficult for them to leave due to being shackled to the Euro)
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
The thing is, these people show absolutely no humility or sense of awareness what so ever. When it comes to Europe they have been wrong at pretty much every turn for the past 40 years, yet still they expect to be taken seriously.
It's extraordinary really...
I thought it was a good tactic from Gove to note he'd been wrong in the past before and had fessed up - that contrasted so heavily with far too many Remainers who don't.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
Leave is prospering because Germany didnt think we would do what we said we would do. Get a better deal or leave. It was ever thus. We said we would defend Belgium and said the same again over Poland twenty five years later. They thought we didnt mean it. Had Angela given the merest fig leaf of a concession in the renegotiation Cameron would be in the clear by now.As it is he is facing a truly historic defeat. I like Germans and their country.They seem the most like us of any of them. Yet they consistently think we dont mean what we say, against all the evidence of history. When we leave thank or blame Angela.
There is nothing Merkel could offered Cameron to make a meaningful difference to the referendum result that wouldn't have been vetoed by another member state.
It would have required a majority of governments to contemplate an alternative to More Europe, and that was never going to happen in the available timescale.
Beyond tinkering around the edges it's not just a majority of governments, it's all of them. Say the British want the ability to shaft Polish migrant workers, for example. That might have impressed leave-curious voters. But why on earth would the government of Poland go along with it? If they don't, it doesn't happen.
Obviously Cameron knew this, the renegotiation was a scam to get through the election without admitting that he supported the EU. And it worked.
Therein lies the problem - if such a law was passed a good number of Poles would return home without the money that is currently being injected month by month into the Polish economy. Giving Poland as much of a veto as the UK provides weaker and less successful states disproportionately more power.
As has been said on here in the past few days, expansion of the EU and the single currency has made a mockery of what was a successful trade club.
so growing strongly only in comparison to the falls of the previous decade rather than the rises which happened in the century beforehand.
Is the first table not inflation adjusted? I think it is. In which case real pay is growing slightly ahead of productivity growth at present having lagged it for a while. its not special but it is not an obvious source of anger either.
No.
Here is the data for the actual weekly earnings in pounds:
March 2016 £499 March 2015 £490
As a comparison the equivalent figures from ten years previously were:
March 2006 £402 March 2005 £379
I suspect that the low earnings rises of the past decade are psychologically aggravating when compared to the ostentatious flaunting of the wealth of the 'rich', particularly the 'undeserving rich'. .
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
I think part of the problem Remain is suffering is that they genuinely thought that the Renegotiation package would be enough to keep a lot of fence-sitters in the Remain camp. That is was met with near universal ridicule - especially when Cameron and Osborne tried to sell it as the riches of King Solomon's Mines - has left their campaign like a two legged stool.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
BBC Today programme some weeks ago actually gave Major time on air for what amounted to a speech attacking Brexit. Like thought for the day. In addition to a soft-soap interview. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing.
I am in the top1% in the East Midlands in terms of income (but not of wealth), so I too pay a shedload of tax.
Squaring the circle of keeping taxes affordable yet not breaking up the welfare state on the altar of austerity is a tricky one. It will be made worse by cutting down on working age migrants, and thereby increasing the number of dependents for each of us of working age. Remember that ONS forecast of the population growing to 70 million? The number of working age people remains constant and the increase is mostly in the elderly, and particularly in the very elderly. The 1945 -1964 baby-boomers are getting to retirement age and beyond. There is a twenty year gap before the bpopulation structure stabilises. Until then we have to choose between immigration in about the current numbers and austerity that ever tightens on those in need of welfare support.
The government (and market) has failed to prepare for both these demographic changes. We should be building housing, and schools as well as a viable system of health and social care, instead we have squeezed all these things.
The government solution to this is to increase the retirement age. Most of us will be working until our late 60s or early 70s (depending on age) which will both increase the supply of labour and reduce the period over which retirement benefits are paid.
We are also not utilising our domestic supply of labour adequately because it is cheaper to employ qualified people from abroad than train them adequately. Doctors, of course, still get to retire at 60.
We need to increase working age and pension age anyway, but these increases will be much more so without the benefits of immigration to the workforce.
The biggest areas of population growth over the next 2 decades will be the over 75's and 85's.
And doctors pension age under NHS superannuation moved several years ago to 65, and I have several colleagues working past that age already - albeit on fairly light rotas.
Leave are successfully exploiting generalised discontent for its own ends and it is human nature for people to want to believe anyone who tells them their problems will be sorted out if they just do as they say - i.e. leave the EU
If Leave win I fully expect the fickle public to be blaming Brexit for all their woes within a year or two.
Yes, and Leavers will be severely punished at the polls.
But that is the risk we are prepared to take. Country before party, you see....but we will still regroup and the Conservative Party will still be an awesome tank of a weapon at the next election, whenever it is called - and whoever leads it.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I doubt very much that the rest of the press have ignored it, very naive to think other papers wont now be digging around for stuff to embarrass the Leave campaign. I'd wait to see what else comes out before you dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Mr. Song, whether the UK remains or not is a matter for the UK. Whether Scotland leaves the UK is a matter for Scotland.
Speaking of Britain and Scotland, Andy Murray's in the French Open final against Djokovic. It'd be a surprise if he won, but if he did I think he'd just need the Australian Open to complete the Grand Slam career set.
Indeed. In fact that would complete the even rarer Golden Slam (All five majors plus Olympic gold).
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
I think part of the problem Remain is suffering is that they genuinely thought that the Renegotiation package would be enough to keep a lot of fence-sitters in the Remain camp. That is was met with near universal ridicule - especially when Cameron and Osborne tried to sell it as the riches of King Solomon's Mines - has left their campaign like a two legged stool.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
I don't see any evidence for that. They optimised for the general election, then what else could they do? They won't support Leave because they sincerely believe it'll fuck the economy, and saying "We admit we got nothing but we support Remain anyhow" would have made they look even stupider than they look holding this unconvincing line about how much they won.
I like to think of BREXIT as the Little Guy versus the Big Guy. Plucky little Britain standing up to the leering EU Goliath.
Or, at the more personal level: individual Britons, from all walks of life, standing up to Dave, George and Jean-Claude and their EU gang.
And maybe at the same time we can show all those countries like Greece that have been so bullied and brought to ruins by the EU that there IS a way out if they so choose (all be it it's more difficult for them to leave due to being shackled to the Euro)
I looked at the YG yesterday about other countries' feelings about contagion.
Many think it will happen, and France and Sweden will not need much of a shift to be showing them in favour of Leave for their own nations.
Europe (EZ/EU/EFTA) will have to substantially reform to survive this.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
I think part of the problem Remain is suffering is that they genuinely thought that the Renegotiation package would be enough to keep a lot of fence-sitters in the Remain camp. That is was met with near universal ridicule - especially when Cameron and Osborne tried to sell it as the riches of King Solomon's Mines - has left their campaign like a two legged stool.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
Yes I think that is probably right.
The irony being, IMO (!), that the deal is very important. Take no ever closer union. There is no definition of what is meant so in theory we could point at any new legislation and say: Ever Closer Union! And reject it.
Of course as we saw with the fiscal compact, when we do this, at least Lab and the LDs scream blue murder.
It confirms my theory that many Brexiters don't fear the EU, they fear a Lab govt agreeing to the EU.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
A deal to do what? Look at the campaign, look what Leave are campaigning on, and tell us specifically what they could offered that would have materially affected the outcome.
Precisely. The EU is a machine that exists solely to make itself into a superstate. It can't be turned around or reasoned with. Dave was being either utterly naive or utterly mendacious when he told us he'd get a deal. The EU doesn't do deals when it comes to 'the project'. The choice facing voters on the 23rd is Superstate or Not Part Of A Superstate.
"Not Part Of A Superstate" is precisely the deal that Dave achieved.
I don't mind if people, a la Gove, understand the deal but think the ECJ will strike it down (a bonkers proposition but with a tenuous relationship with reality).
But not to understand, or perhaps even not having read the deal and then to criticise it is wasting everyone's time.
I don't think he did achieve that. If the practice of the EU is to draw powers to the centre, and mission creep (and I'd argue that it is) then I don't think it makes much difference if we get a formal opt out from Ever Closer Union. Micromanagement is simply part of the EU's DNA.
I'd say that the choice is between Not Part of a Superstate, and Continued Struggle not to be absorbed into a Superstate on 23rd June.
Precisely. It will just be renamed 'Union Ever Closer' or 'Constantly Nearing Togetherness' and proceed as usual. To think otherwise is ridiculously naive.
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
BBC Today programme some weeks ago actually gave Major time on air for what amounted to a speech attacking Brexit. Like thought for the day. In addition to a soft-soap interview. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing.
But the more they do it, the more voters see the Establishment circling the wagons - and the better the polls get for Leave.
@iainmartin1: Boris fans loved it. Boris haters hated it. We're in the campaign zone now, approaching peak hysteria. Participants seeing what want to see.
EDIT: This was also true of the Sky debates. Everybody saw what they wanted to see. No votes shifted, either way.
Although Boris was better than normal, he still can't keep his discipline through to the end. He needs to keep his sentences shorter and not try to have a conservation. There isn't time in the dumbed-down 24-hour media to take a leisurely approach. Marr was awful, trying to interrupt with cheap sound bites. Michael Gove is their best media operator by far
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
Mass job losses do seem to be a common feature of integration/mergers.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
I am in the top1% in the East Midlands in terms of income (but not of wealth), so I too pay a shedload of tax.
Squaring the circle of keeping taxes affordable yet not breaking up the welfare state on the altar of austerity is a tricky one. It will be made worse by cutting down on working age migrants, and thereby increasing the number of dependents for each of us of working age. Remember that ONS forecast of the population growing to 70 million? The number of working age people remains constant and the increase is mostly in the elderly, and particularly in the very elderly. The 1945 -1964 baby-boomers are getting to retirement age and beyond. There is a twenty year gap before the bpopulation structure stabilises. Until then we have to choose between immigration in about the current numbers and austerity that ever tightens on those in need of welfare support.
The government (and market) has failed to prepare for both these demographic changes. We should be building housing, and schools as well as a viable system of health and social care, instead we have squeezed all these things.
The government solution to this is to increase the retirement age. Most of us will be working until our late 60s or early 70s (depending on age) which will both increase the supply of labour and reduce the period over which retirement benefits are paid.
We are also not utilising our domestic supply of labour adequately because it is cheaper to employ qualified people from abroad than train them adequately. Doctors, of course, still get to retire at 60.
We need to increase working age and pension age anyway, but these increases will be much more so without the benefits of immigration to the workforce.
The biggest areas of population growth over the next 2 decades will be the over 75's and 85's.
And doctors pension age under NHS superannuation moved several years ago to 65, and I have several colleagues working past that age already - albeit on fairly light rotas.
How is my neighbour retiring on a full pension at 60 in November then? How old does a doctor have to be to be caught by the changes?
We hopefully will have an increase in the number of those living into their 80s in the next few decades, I hope to be one of them. Whether that creates a huge burden of not will depend on their health. A cure for Alzheimer's, for example, would make a hell of a difference.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
I think part of the problem Remain is suffering is that they genuinely thought that the Renegotiation package would be enough to keep a lot of fence-sitters in the Remain camp. That is was met with near universal ridicule - especially when Cameron and Osborne tried to sell it as the riches of King Solomon's Mines - has left their campaign like a two legged stool.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
Cameron's mistakes include:
1) The non-deal 2) Claiming the non-deal was brilliant 3) Not having anything positive to say about the EU 4) Getting foreigners to slag off Britain whilst smirking alongside 5) Getting bankers etc to say that leaving the EU would hurt bankers etc wealth
But underlying all these and underlying also everything else which has gone wrong with this government is George Osborne.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I doubt very much that the rest of the press have ignored it, very naive to think other papers wont now be digging around for stuff to embarrass the Leave campaign. I'd wait to see what else comes out before you dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Farage comments this morning are seriously out of order and will be an embarrassment to Vote Leave.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I note that the journalist who wrote that story coincidently has an exclusive interview with Cameron in the same edition.
Fancy That!
So are you saying that the Mail On Sunday was lying about the racists it has uncovered in the Leave campaign?
Last week I had lunch with four friends from advertising. I know them all well though I have no idea which party any of them support and we never talk politics.
But as I was thinking of writing a piece on 'dog whistles' in political campaigns particularly this one I broke with convention and asked each which way they were going to vote. In terms of job geography wealth etc there was nothing to separate them.
I wrote down before asking my guesses and I got all of them right. Three Remain (including me) One Leave and one waverer.
Alastair makes a good case for 'why' as does DavidL as does Fox. But the contradictions are everywhere. This is why this thing is proving impossible for the persuaders. If you can't identify your target market you're working in the dark.
Maybe there is no logic. Maybe it's a contest which is 100% visceral. So the only way you can guess is by using the Nick Cohen test. Ask what someone thinks about X and you'll know the answer to Y Z A B C D. and so on
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I doubt very much that the rest of the press have ignored it, very naive to think other papers wont now be digging around for stuff to embarrass the Leave campaign. I'd wait to see what else comes out before you dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Farage comments this morning are seriously out of order and will be an embarrassment to Vote Leave.
That's like saying Jeremy Corbyn's comments will be an embarrassment to the Conservative Party.
There's a reason Farage isn't even a member let alone a leader of Vote Leave. It is a rival organisation that has nothing to do with him.
'You point out that Meeks believes Leave to be "irrational". He is clearly well paid, lives well and is surrounded by other well paid people, good for him, he deserves nothing but admiration in that respect. But therein lies the rub, in thread after thread, post after post, he simply cannot comprehend Leave's stance, doesn't understand WHY not everybody is as blissfully content as him with the status quo.'
Apart from being among the top earners,Meeks has a flat in London appreciating by around 10% per year and not subject to the nightmare of trying to find housing in London, no kids to have to find places in overcrowded schools ,private health care or sufficient wealth to not have to worry about NHS waiting times & a holiday home in the EU.
Difficult to find anyone more out of touch with the real world.
Taking a step back, it's very Spurs-like of the Tory party to try and let Corbyn's Gooners have any chance at all of finishing ahead of them when the end of the season arrives.
Reminds me why I voted Lib Dem last time Europe was the parties obsession.
fortunately it's only 2016... long way to final whistle.
Edmundintokyo but Cameron came away with nothing. Zero to offer. Merkel dominates the EU to an unprecedented extent. Had the will existed in Berlin to strike a deal then a deal would have been struck. Instead they tried to call our bluff. Again.
The EU is doing its own superstate thing. A cursory glance at any EU document will confirm this.
Dave, however, achieved a formal opt-out of ever closer union, no discrimination between and against EZ/non-EZ and exemption from banking union. He didn't get much on immigration, and he got some fluff on competitiveness. But at least on PB, no one has a problem with EU immigration, do they?
He has not changed the EU, he has fundamentally enshrined the UK's special status within, or even perhaps if you prefer alongside the EU.
That's hardly nothing.
All piss and wind. He came back with nothing.
If that is the limit of your insight I'm sure you will enjoy a UK outside the EU.
I think part of the problem Remain is suffering is that they genuinely thought that the Renegotiation package would be enough to keep a lot of fence-sitters in the Remain camp. That is was met with near universal ridicule - especially when Cameron and Osborne tried to sell it as the riches of King Solomon's Mines - has left their campaign like a two legged stool.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
I don't see any evidence for that. They optimised for the general election, then what else could they do? They won't support Leave because they sincerely believe it'll fuck the economy, and saying "We admit we got nothing but we support Remain anyhow" would have made they look even stupider than they look holding this unconvincing line about how much they won.
Bu Cameron is now looking at the worst possible result if he believes that - Brexit, with Cameron and Osborne replaced by "that clown Boris". At least if he had recommended Leave, he could have been in control of the process to minimise the fucking of the economy.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I doubt very much that the rest of the press have ignored it, very naive to think other papers wont now be digging around for stuff to embarrass the Leave campaign. I'd wait to see what else comes out before you dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Farage comments this morning are seriously out of order and will be an embarrassment to Vote Leave.
That's like saying Jeremy Corbyn's comments will be an embarrassment to the Conservative Party.
There's a reason Farage isn't even a member let alone a leader of Vote Leave. It is a rival organisation that has nothing to do with him.
You can say that but the voter sees him as a member of the leave campaign
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
BBC Today programme some weeks ago actually gave Major time on air for what amounted to a speech attacking Brexit. Like thought for the day. In addition to a soft-soap interview. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing.
But the more they do it, the more voters see the Establishment circling the wagons - and the better the polls get for Leave.
Remain has horrible strategy issues.
It's more servings of egg and chips - on different coloured plates. Today, Osborne's claiming mortgages will go up by £120pcm.
It's the same old fear riff that hasn't worked over the last 85 days - the concept of ever-diminishing returns clearly hasn't dawned on them.
I do hope they carry on in the same vein. Talk about a one-note campaign.
I am in the top1% in the East Midlands in terms of income (but not of wealth), so I too pay a shedload of tax.
The government (and market) has failed to prepare for both these demographic changes. We should be building housing, and schools as well as a viable system of health and social care, instead we have squeezed all these things.
The government solution to this is to increase the retirement age. Most of us will be working until our late 60s or early 70s (depending on age) which will both increase the supply of labour and reduce the period over which retirement benefits are paid.
We are also not utilising our domestic supply of labour adequately because it is cheaper to employ qualified people from abroad than train them adequately. Doctors, of course, still get to retire at 60.
We need to increase working age and pension age anyway, but these increases will be much more so without the benefits of immigration to the workforce.
The biggest areas of population growth over the next 2 decades will be the over 75's and 85's.
And doctors pension age under NHS superannuation moved several years ago to 65, and I have several colleagues working past that age already - albeit on fairly light rotas.
How is my neighbour retiring on a full pension at 60 in November then? How old does a doctor have to be to be caught by the changes?
We hopefully will have an increase in the number of those living into their 80s in the next few decades, I hope to be one of them. Whether that creates a huge burden of not will depend on their health. A cure for Alzheimer's, for example, would make a hell of a difference.
He is probably still under the transitional arrangements from the old scheme.
A cure for Alzheimers is a long way off, and the problems of frailty in the over 75's from osteoporosis, macular disease, arthritis, as well as dementia are not ones that allow easy "cures". What cures there are are likely to be expensive and labour intensive, increasing the burden on the shrinking working age taxpayer group.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
The legacy of Back to Basics...
Plato I have never seen John Major so animated. His dislike for IDS and others was tangible. The hatred after the decision will be difficult to reconcile.
Although Boris was better than normal, he still can't keep his discipline through to the end. He needs to keep his sentences shorter and not try to have a conservation. There isn't time in the dumbed-down 24-hour media to take a leisurely approach. Marr was awful, trying to interrupt with cheap sound bites. Michael Gove is their best media operator by far
Boris and Gove come over much better to me than Major, Cameron and Heseltine recently. Their interlocutors (Peston, Marr and Islam) are just a pain in the rs.
Gove is the sort of person I wouldn't mind being sat next to on a long flight. You could have a wide ranging interesting conversation and come away having learnt something.
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I note that the journalist who wrote that story coincidently has an exclusive interview with Cameron in the same edition.
Fancy That!
So are you saying that the Mail On Sunday was lying about the racists it has uncovered in the Leave campaign?
Isn't the REMAIN campaign based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people?
Gove is the sort of person I wouldn't mind being sat next to on a long flight. You could have a wide ranging interesting conversation and come away having learnt something.
And then afterwards you'd read more about the interesting things you learned and discover that he was telling you a very partial and superficial view of the truth.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
I am in the top1% in the East Midlands in terms of income (but not of wealth), so I too pay a shedload of tax.
Squaring the circle of keeping taxes affordable yet not breaking up the welfare state on the altar of austerity is a tricky one. It will be made worse by cutting down on working age migrants, and thereby increasing the number of dependents for each of us of working age. Remember that ONS forecast of the population growing to 70 million? The number of working age people remains constant and the increase is mostly in the elderly, and particularly in the very elderly. The 1945 -1964 baby-boomers are getting to retirement age and beyond. There is a twenty year gap before the bpopulation structure stabilises. Until then we have to choose between immigration in about the current numbers and austerity that ever tightens on those in need of welfare support.
The government (and market) has failed to prepare for both these demographic changes. We should be building housing, and schools as well as a viable system of health and social care, instead we have squeezed all these things.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
My goodness, that was truly vicious from John Major. Also, no interruptions from Marr. Hope Boris is allowed the same courtesy - lol!
The OTT attacks from Major, Clarke and Hezza all smack of desperation. I find them very unappealing. It just reinforces the whole negative tone of Remain.
BBC Today programme some weeks ago actually gave Major time on air for what amounted to a speech attacking Brexit. Like thought for the day. In addition to a soft-soap interview. I really couldn't believe what I was hearing.
But the more they do it, the more voters see the Establishment circling the wagons - and the better the polls get for Leave.
Remain has horrible strategy issues.
It's more servings of egg and chips - on different coloured plates. Today, Osborne's claiming mortgages will go up by £120pcm.
It's the same old fear riff that hasn't worked over the last 85 days - the concept of ever-diminishing returns clearly hasn't dawned on them.
I do hope they carry on in the same vein. Talk about a one-note campaign.
We all know that at some point, mortgage rates are going to rise because interest rates are going to rise. Interest rates have been on life-support levels for getting on for a decade now. The irony is that Remain are telling us that their stewardship of the economy will get us back to the point where a healthy economy means we can resume normal interest rates and, er, cause mortgages to rise. Whereas Leave will trash the economy, meaning the life-support levels of interest rates will stay, meaning that, er, mortgages won't go up.
They really haven't thought this through at all, have they?
John Major appears to be extracting his revenge on the Bastards live on Marr right now
The man is a fool... Lead his party to its worst defeat since the Duke Of Wellington, presided over a house repossession crisis across Middle England, etc.
Or alternatively got the most votes ever in a general election and then got shafted by the ill disciplined loons on the right of his party.......who have since decided in their infinite wisdom to do the same to the only Tory party leader to gain a majority since. And with barely a year passed since that majority was won. Almost makes one question who the fools are doesn't it?
Economics is not a science. Economic forecasting is not scientific. Pretending otherwise is childish. Basic honesty would require an error bar between - infinity and + infinity.
In 14 years, your family will be £4,300 worse off.
If a seven-year-old said that, we would smile indulgently.
Leave can talk nonsense now and say "Well, you started it."
I love the idea that HMT can forecast to within £100 what we'll experience 15yrs hence.
The TUC has gone two decimal places better - we'll be £38pw worse off.
With that talent, they really should be working in the City.
Good morning, still think it's "silly and childish" to suggest that the Leave campaign have a problem with waycists?
Yes. The Mail on Sunday have done a clone of their farage smearing stories on behalf of CCHQ last year and have found about four people in a population of 60 million who are so incredibly over the top you wonder who their handlers are - and rest of the press has ignored the story.
I doubt very much that the rest of the press have ignored it, very naive to think other papers wont now be digging around for stuff to embarrass the Leave campaign. I'd wait to see what else comes out before you dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Farage comments this morning are seriously out of order and will be an embarrassment to Vote Leave.
That's like saying Jeremy Corbyn's comments will be an embarrassment to the Conservative Party.
There's a reason Farage isn't even a member let alone a leader of Vote Leave. It is a rival organisation that has nothing to do with him.
It is harmful to leave as a cause. It is absurd that remainers and leavers pretend it doesn't matter when someone prominent does something stupid because they aren't officially part of their campaign. People don't care about the difference.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
The legacy of Back to Basics...
Plato I have never seen John Major so animated.
Not even in Spitting Image???
No Sunil even on spitting image did he get that angry, he just shuffled peas from my memory and was very grey.
Comments
In any case Earnings growth was 2% in the year to March:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/timeseries/kac3
and RPI was 1.6% in the year to March:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/czbh
so growing strongly only in comparison to the falls of the previous decade rather than the rises which happened in the century beforehand.
Hence I've voted to Leave
Mr. T, the argument should be made on the case for remaining or leaving.
There are unsavoury types (and sensible fellows) on both sides of the debate.
Or that the car factories didn't shut down or that the City didn't relocate to Frankfurt or that sterling didn't 'become as worthless as the Ukrainian Coupon'.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/could-the-vote-leave-strategy-work/
I don't mind if people, a la Gove, understand the deal but think the ECJ will strike it down (a bonkers proposition but with a tenuous relationship with reality).
But not to understand, or perhaps even not having read the deal and then to criticise it is wasting everyone's time.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7192048/David-Camerons-former-guru-Steve-Hilton-challenges-him-to-a-TV-debate-on-Brexit-as-furious-spat-deepens.html
It's extraordinary really...
#Remain must be rattled. Personal attack on #Boris by John Major who quotes totally inaccurate costs of #EU https://t.co/052zXEyDSC
Or, at the more personal level: individual Britons, from all walks of life, standing up to Dave, George and Jean-Claude and their EU gang.
As for me, I've travelled and lived on several continents and have plenty of perspective about the UK. But I'm not complacent.
Fancy That!
In the eighteenth century compositions were occasionally commissioned to celebrate the signing of treaties; here's the one for Utrecht:
https://youtu.be/LnycRbNQ-GU
PS if we leave the EU, I do hope we can opt back into the EU baroque orchestra. It's a great institution.
Vote Leave to save Europe.
I'd say that the choice is between Not Part of a Superstate, and Continued Struggle not to be absorbed into a Superstate on 23rd June.
Simon Richards @simplysimontfa 32m32 minutes ago
Major's disastrous ERM policy ruined millions of lives; he cheated on his wife. How dare he accuse Leave campaign of deceit & dishonesty!
As has been said on here in the past few days, expansion of the EU and the single currency has made a mockery of what was a successful trade club.
Here is the data for the actual weekly earnings in pounds:
March 2016 £499
March 2015 £490
As a comparison the equivalent figures from ten years previously were:
March 2006 £402
March 2005 £379
I suspect that the low earnings rises of the past decade are psychologically aggravating when compared to the ostentatious flaunting of the wealth of the 'rich', particularly the 'undeserving rich'.
.
And since then, they have tried to polish that stool with pestilence and war. With hilarious results...
The biggest areas of population growth over the next 2 decades will be the over 75's and 85's.
And doctors pension age under NHS superannuation moved several years ago to 65, and I have several colleagues working past that age already - albeit on fairly light rotas.
Do you have any evidence that GCHQ were behind the stories on Farage or is that just another wild Leave conspiracy theory ?
Many think it will happen, and France and Sweden will not need much of a shift to be showing them in favour of Leave for their own nations.
Europe (EZ/EU/EFTA) will have to substantially reform to survive this.
The irony being, IMO (!), that the deal is very important. Take no ever closer union. There is no definition of what is meant so in theory we could point at any new legislation and say: Ever Closer Union! And reject it.
Of course as we saw with the fiscal compact, when we do this, at least Lab and the LDs scream blue murder.
It confirms my theory that many Brexiters don't fear the EU, they fear a Lab govt agreeing to the EU.
Remain has horrible strategy issues.
EDIT: This was also true of the Sky debates. Everybody saw what they wanted to see. No votes shifted, either way.
We hopefully will have an increase in the number of those living into their 80s in the next few decades, I hope to be one of them. Whether that creates a huge burden of not will depend on their health. A cure for Alzheimer's, for example, would make a hell of a difference.
1) The non-deal
2) Claiming the non-deal was brilliant
3) Not having anything positive to say about the EU
4) Getting foreigners to slag off Britain whilst smirking alongside
5) Getting bankers etc to say that leaving the EU would hurt bankers etc wealth
But underlying all these and underlying also everything else which has gone wrong with this government is George Osborne.
But as I was thinking of writing a piece on 'dog whistles' in political campaigns particularly this one I broke with convention and asked each which way they were going to vote. In terms of job geography wealth etc there was nothing to separate them.
I wrote down before asking my guesses and I got all of them right. Three Remain (including me) One Leave and one waverer.
Alastair makes a good case for 'why' as does DavidL as does Fox. But the contradictions are everywhere. This is why this thing is proving impossible for the persuaders. If you can't identify your target market you're working in the dark.
Maybe there is no logic. Maybe it's a contest which is 100% visceral. So the only way you can guess is by using the Nick Cohen test. Ask what someone thinks about X and you'll know the answer to Y Z A B C D. and so on
@GdnPolitics: Nigel Farage: migrant sex attacks to be nuclear bomb of EU referendum https://t.co/jEpodz7bYV
There's a reason Farage isn't even a member let alone a leader of Vote Leave. It is a rival organisation that has nothing to do with him.
@louisetaft: #brexit shit just got real in North London https://t.co/xDmhiZ0FSS
'You point out that Meeks believes Leave to be "irrational". He is clearly well paid, lives well and is surrounded by other well paid people, good for him, he deserves nothing but admiration in that respect. But therein lies the rub, in thread after thread, post after post, he simply cannot comprehend Leave's stance, doesn't understand WHY not everybody is as blissfully content as him with the status quo.'
Apart from being among the top earners,Meeks has a flat in London appreciating by around 10% per year and not subject to the nightmare of trying to find housing in London, no kids to have to find places in overcrowded schools ,private health care or sufficient wealth to not have to worry about NHS waiting times & a holiday home in the EU.
Difficult to find anyone more out of touch with the real world.
Reminds me why I voted Lib Dem last time Europe was the parties obsession.
fortunately it's only 2016... long way to final whistle.
It was great to see Murray win Olympics gold (didn't hurt that it was a winning tip, by me
It's the same old fear riff that hasn't worked over the last 85 days - the concept of ever-diminishing returns clearly hasn't dawned on them.
I do hope they carry on in the same vein. Talk about a one-note campaign.
A cure for Alzheimers is a long way off, and the problems of frailty in the over 75's from osteoporosis, macular disease, arthritis, as well as dementia are not ones that allow easy "cures". What cures there are are likely to be expensive and labour intensive, increasing the burden on the shrinking working age taxpayer group.
Remain have overcooked the goose, and respond by turning up the heat even more. A lump of charcoal is not appetising.
Of course, Leave may repeat that mistake.
I have never seen John Major so animated.
His dislike for IDS and others was tangible.
The hatred after the decision will be difficult to reconcile.
@politicshome: On Nigel Farage's EU sex attacker comments, Tory MP Nadine Dorries calls Ukip leader "decent bloke" and "not a racist". @SkyMurnaghan
Their interlocutors (Peston, Marr and Islam) are just a pain in the rs.
Immigration
Immigrants
Rapist immigrants
@BBCNormanS: Michael Gove says will bring migration down to tens of thousands after Brexit @pestononsunday
The breadth of the Leave campaign is a wonder to behold
And the narrowness of the Remain campaign points to their poor strategy.
The only advice I've heard given to the campaign that should be dominating is to go harder at the economics.
Al Campbell really has lost his touch with the British public.
They really haven't thought this through at all, have they?
The working age voted Leave in spite of all the same warnings and when starting from much further behind in the referendum than EU Leave were.
The manner of IDS' resignation and his utterances immediately afterwards were foolish and strong indication that the Quiet Man lacks perceptiveness.
Cameron's arrogance, complacency and taking people for fools over his mighty renegotiation are the key driving force of his party problems, though.