Britain's future is engaging and trading with the whole world including the rise of Asia which will be the dominant economic power by 2030.
So we should close our borders and withdraw from the largest trading bloc on the planet.
Oh, wait...
I want to trade with everyone, and as someone who is very pro-European, there is no distinction on that front between the EU and non-EU countries post-Brexit. And the EU countries need to trade with us far more than we need to trade with them.
Don't forget that the Brexit camp are saying they want out of the single market as well which would leave us in the company of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova...
I favoured the EFTA option as I know Richard Tyndall does. EU trade under WTO rules post-Brexit wouldn't be ideal, but the reality would be that we'd put differences aside and come to a sensible trade deal one way or another. The big EU corporates would ensure that to be the case.
Mr. Glenn, I can't speak for any ce if it returns to being a self-governing nation state. So the project fear which is all based around hypothetical short-term economic effects just wash over me. I shall vote accordingly.
We are currently living through an era of unprecedented globalisation which is leaving too many behind. Our political class and their opposite numbers in other Western countries have so far failed to find the right answers to deal with these trends. Against that background it might seem that opting out of the EU would make sense, or failing that, would send a message to the elites, but this would be merely a short-term cri de cœur.
We should never forget that Britain's future is inextricably linked with the future of Europe as a whole. We are an island nation in the literal sense only. What use is the satisfaction of independence if Europe burns around us? Conversely what is the price of independence if it means that Britain plays no role in the denouement of centuries of European rivalry as Europe takes its place in a newly globally-industrialised world? Britain is not a bit-part actor but a country that has earned its place at the centre of world hi
You mention gld GDP.
Europe is only 7% of the world's population but has 17% of the world's gdp, it was always inevitable its share of gdp would decline as areas like China and India with vast populations developed. China and India have stated they want the UK in the EU for trade deals etc but I doubt they feel strongly either way
China and India are worried that in the event of a Brexit that the EU will become even more insular and inward-looking....which is understandable from their view point. But as I've said during this campaign before, a Brexit sets off a domino effect of Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leaving the EU. And polls amongst other EU countries show that their residents see that reality too. So they'll have a whole lot more trade negotiations to undertake.
Sweden, Denmark, yes ! Poland , Hungary, no ! They were dying to get in and between a choice of two big bears, the EU and Russia, they will choose the EU.
Ireland will get quite a few of the investment that came to Britain particularly in manufacturing. Automotive, for example. I am not saying Nissan, Toyota, Honda will suddenly close their plants but future investments will be more selective. A lot of US investment, already going to Ireland, will increase.
Not quite sure what you're basing your ideas of broadband on, but you're wrong. Having lived in rural Gloucestershire and the heart of Wales literally sixty miles from the nearest large town, I have had constant access to reliable broadband since 2006. In fact, speeds in Cannock (pop c. 85,000) are rather slower than they were in Clifford's Mesne (pop. c. 200) I think because there is more pressure on the phone exchange. When I spent some time in Kettlewell in Yorkshire a couple of years ago, they told me they had already gone over to fibre optic, although I'm not sure how they managed it (assuming they were telling the truth, of course). Therefore, your suggestion is not plausible.
The likeliest explanation is that people who voted Tory simply don't have time to fill in polls online or over the phone as they are too busy. That's apparently what the pollsters believe and I have to say it sounds plausible. Now remember people in rural areas usually have major amounts of travel time as well and you see the possible problem.
So why are we subsidising B.T to switch rural areas over to Broadband if there is no problem? Not saying your wrong you know more about this than I do but we the number of times we are told we have an issue with rural connection......
You're confusing broadband and cable. The second remains unusual in rural areas, which is why I was so surprised to find Kettlewell had it.
Cable is c. 8 times as fast as broadband, but in practice I find broadband OK unless you have heavy pressure on the system. As a single man, my broadband is adequate 95% of the time - a colleague who has four children needs cable. Like I said, I find Cannock slower and less stable than rural Gloucestershire, so I will probably jump to cable when my current contract is up.
Curiously the worst internet connection I've ever come across was in central Guildford - a pitiful 0.5 Mbps.
EU trade under WTO rules post-Brexit wouldn't be ideal, but the reality would be that we'd put differences aside and come to a sensible trade deal one way or another. The big EU corporates would ensure that to be the case.
I find this blind faith in the rationality of historical processes to be very dangerous. You think Brexit will set off a domino effect of other countries leaving. Who knows where that will lead?
Britain's future is engaging and trading with the whole world including the rise of Asia which will be the dominant economic power by 2030.
So we should close our borders and withdraw from the largest trading bloc on the planet.
Oh, wait...
I want to trade with everyone, and as someone who is very pro-European, there is no distinction on that front between the EU and non-EU countries post-Brexit. And the EU countries need to trade with us far more than we need to trade with them.
Don't forget that the Brexit camp are saying they want out of the single market as well which would leave us in the company of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova...
I favoured the EFTA option as I know Richard Tyndall does. EU trade under WTO rules post-Brexit wouldn't be ideal, but the reality would be that we'd put differences aside and come to a sensible trade deal one way or another. The big EU corporates would ensure that to be the case.
Manufacturing, maybe. But why should Frankfurt and Paris and Amsterdam to a single market in Finance ?
Mr. Glenn, I can't speak for any ce if it returns to being a self-governing nation state. So the project fear which is all based around hypothetical short-term economic effects just wash over me. I shall vote accordingly.
Thanks for posting that. I share your lack of patience for narrow and short-term arguments about economics. I am also concerned with the future of Britain over the long term. I want it to be a better place to live and a country that better supports the aspirations of its people to do well.
We are currently living through an era of unprecedented globalisation which is leaving too many behind. Our political class and their opposite numbers in other Western countries have so far failed to find the right answers to deal with these trends. Against that background it might seem that opting out of the EU would make sense, or failing that, would send a message to the elites, but this would be merely a short-term cri de cœur.
We should never forget that Britain's future is inextricably linked with the future of Europe as a whole. We are an island nation in the literal sense only. What use is the satisfaction of independence if Europe burns around us? Conversely what is the price of independence if it means that Britain plays no role in the denouement of centuries of European rivalry as Europe takes its place in a newly globally-industrialised world? Britain is not a bit-part actor but a country that has earned its place at the centre of world hi
You mention gld GDP.
Europe is only 7% of the world's population but has 17% of the world's gdp, it was always inevitable its share of gdp would decline as areas like China and India with vast populations developed. China and India have stated they want the UK in the EU for trade deals etc but I doubt they feel strongly either way
China and India are worried that in the event of a Brexit that the EU will become even more insular and inward-looking....which is understandable from their view point. But as I've said during this campaign before, a Brexit sets off a domino effect of Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leaving the EU. And polls amongst other EU countries show that their residents see that reality too. So they'll have a whole lot more trade negotiations to undertake.
Yes Hunchman but what about the goings on near 'Farm Walk Tennis club'
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
Indeed but interesting the way they break down the different groups
Mr. Glenn, I can't speak for any ce if it returns to being a self-governing nation state. So the project fear which is all based around hypothetical short-term economic effects just wash over me. I shall vote accordingly.
Thanks for posting that. I share your lack of patience for narrow and short-term arguments about economics. I am also concerned with the future of Britain over the long term. I want it to be a better place to live and a country that better supports the aspirations of its people to do well.
We are currently living through an era of unprecedented globalisation which is leaving too many behind. Our political class and their opposite numbers in other Western countries have so far failed to find the right answers to deal with these trends. Against that background it might seem that opting out of the EU would make sense, or failing that, would send a message to the elites, but this would be merely a short-term cri de cœur.
We should never forget that Britain's future is inextricably linked with the future of Europe as a whole. We are an island nation in the literal sense only. What use is the satisfaction of independence if Europe burns around us? Conversely what is the price of independence if it means that Britain plays no role in the denouement of centuries of European rivalry as Europe takes its place in a newly globally-industrialised world? Britain is not a bit-part actor but a country that has earned its place at the centre of world hi
You mention gld GDP.
Europe is only 7% of the world's population but has 17% of the world's gdp, it was always inevitable its share of gdp would decline as areas like China and India with vast populations developed. China and India have stated they want the UK in the EU for trade deals etc but I doubt they feel strongly either way
China and India are worried that in the event of a Brexit that the EU will become even more insular and inward-looking....which is understandable from their view point. But as I've said during this campaign before, a Brexit sets off a domino effect of Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leaving the EU. And polls amongst other EU countries show that their residents see that reality too. So they'll have a whole lot more trade negotiations to undertake.
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
Both votes for Remain, you can honour the other half's decision and follow your own heart too! ;-)
Anecdote alert:
Chat over the garden fence with my neighbour (painter and decorator turned small business owner with a thriving decorating company). Was decided for Leave, but now moving to undecided. Worries re immigrants vs concerns about being able to retire to Spain.
EU trade under WTO rules post-Brexit wouldn't be ideal, but the reality would be that we'd put differences aside and come to a sensible trade deal one way or another. The big EU corporates would ensure that to be the case.
I find this blind faith in the rationality of historical processes to be very dangerous. You think Brexit will set off a domino effect of other countries leaving. Who knows where that will lead?
The collapse of the Euro will set off the collapse of the EU anyway.....and that isn't opinion, that is fact when you understand the lessons of 6,000 years of economic history. So whether it happens through Brexit or through the Euro collapse its going to happen. Time to start preparing sooner rather than later.
Now in the event of a global sovereign debt crisis / global depression over the next 4 years, I hope Europe returns to what it should be all along, free trading nation states. There is no European identity or culture, I'm not a European Unionist. When the hand and glove don't fit, its time to move on.
Not quite sure what you're basing your ideas of broadband on, but you're wrong. Having lived in rural Gloucestershire and the heart of Wales literally sixty miles from the nearest large town, I have had constant access to reliable broadband since 2006. In fact, speeds in Cannock (pop c. 85,000) are rather slower than they were in Clifford's Mesne (pop. c. 200) I think because there is more pressure on the phone exchange. When I spent some time in Kettlewell in Yorkshire a couple of years ago, they told me they had already gone over to fibre optic, although I'm not sure how they managed it (assuming they were telling the truth, of course). Therefore, your suggestion is not plausible.
The likeliest explanation is that people who voted Tory simply don't have time to fill in polls online or over the phone as they are too busy. That's apparently what the pollsters believe and I have to say it sounds plausible. Now remember people in rural areas usually have major amounts of travel time as well and you see the possible problem.
So why are we subsidising B.T to switch rural areas over to Broadband if there is no problem? Not saying your wrong you know more about this than I do but we the number of times we are told we have an issue with rural connection......
You're confusing broadband and cable. The second remains unusual in rural areas, which is why I was so surprised to find Kettlewell had it.
Cable is c. 8 times as fast as broadband, but in practice I find broadband OK unless you have heavy pressure on the system. As a single man, my broadband is adequate 95% of the time - a colleague who has four children needs cable. Like I said, I find Cannock slower and less stable than rural Gloucestershire, so I will probably jump to cable when my current contract is up.
Curiously the worst internet connection I've ever come across was in central Guildford - a pitiful 0.5 Mbps.
There are so-called 'not spots' in major conurbations. Usually to do with distances from exchanges or other odd technical issues.
BT have plans to put fibre to the street cabinet, but not to individual houses.
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
I'm in the 20% Nationalist segment.
Glad you came out with that confession. Me to. Apparently we take pride in our country and view it as making a unique contribution to the world's culture.
I'm sorry that my use of statistics offends you. Clearly what you know from your heart is far more reliable.
When one is faced with what one can see and government statistics, the temptation to believe that the evidence of one's eyes tends to be more reliable is very powerful.
Perhaps.
But usually the correct course of action is to get out more.
Err, that's what your original interlocutor was suggesting to you.
The plural of anecdote is not data. Usually when people say things like "everyone I know is voting Leave", they are looking too narrowly.
Statistics, on the other hand, are compiled with the intention of being comprehensive. They are not necessarily accurate but we are blessed in this country with an impartial and very able statistics-gathering service.
You mean, your statistics are facts, but his facts are just statistics.
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
I'm in the 20% Nationalist segment.
Me too, which I resent given I regard myself as a citizen of the world - I put 10 out of 10 in the section on identifying with the world, and 0 with the EU - how that makes me a Nationalist I don't know! And then at the end when it said Nationalists most strongly associate with being against the EU? What about all the SNP supporters who will vote to remain in the EU regrettably a fortnight on Thursday?!!
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
Britain's future is engaging and trading with the whole world including the rise of Asia which will be the dominant economic power by 2030.
So we should close our borders and withdraw from the largest trading bloc on the planet.
Oh, wait...
I want to trade with everyone, and as someone who is very pro-European, there is no distinction on that front between the EU and non-EU countries post-Brexit. And the EU countries need to trade with us far more than we need to trade with them.
Don't forget that the Brexit camp are saying they want out of the single market as well which would leave us in the company of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova...
I favoured the EFTA option as I know Richard Tyndall does. EU trade under WTO rules post-Brexit wouldn't be ideal, but the reality would be that we'd put differences aside and come to a sensible trade deal one way or another. The big EU corporates would ensure that to be the case.
Manufacturing, maybe. But why should Frankfurt and Paris and Amsterdam to a single market in Finance ?
Good luck with that when they want to outlaw short selling (showing they don't have a clue how markets operate) and want a financial transactions tax.
The City of London will be brought down by its own corruption though (including everything that goes through that notorious address and plenty of other addresses I could mention) rather than by Brexit as the remain camp claim. Which is historically the case when you look at collapses - communism collapsed of its own accord, Rome too and lots of other historical empires through their own contradictions and corruption.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
You should execute your instructions faithfully
"So honey, do you want me to exercise your proxy in a way that best ensures our happiness as a family? And when I say 'family', I'm talking specifically, about you, our two children, and me."
I would assume that you didn't marry a dunce. I would also assume that like all men (myself included) you have an inflated sense of your own worth within the family.
Work on the basis that your wife is equally as bright as you, will have worked out her own reasons for wanting to vote Remain and has just as much right to have her views respected as you do.
Cast her vote as she has asked.
Disagree:
Even if the missus was not the brightest-penny in the Junior purse her view should be respected. If Wodger asked me to be his proxy I would respect his views and act accordingly (despite my sense of intellectual superiority)....
Me too, which I resent given I regard myself as a citizen of the world - I put 10 out of 10 in the section on identifying with the world, and 0 with the EU - how that makes me a Nationalist I don't know! And then at the end when it said Nationalists most strongly associate with being against the EU? What about all the SNP supporters who will vote to remain in the EU regrettably a fortnight on Thursday?!!
I can't really guess how they calculate these things. I put 8 out of 10 for identifying with the world, 7 out of 10 for identifying with the EU and 7 out of 10 for identifying with the UK.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
Me too, which I resent given I regard myself as a citizen of the world - I put 10 out of 10 in the section on identifying with the world, and 0 with the EU - how that makes me a Nationalist I don't know! And then at the end when it said Nationalists most strongly associate with being against the EU? What about all the SNP supporters who will vote to remain in the EU regrettably a fortnight on Thursday?!!
I can't really guess how they calculate these things. I put 8 out of 10 for identifying with the world, 7 out of 10 for identifying with the EU and 7 out of 10 for identifying with the UK.
You view the EU as having same importance as your country the UK. Therefore it labels you as a europhile. You also put the UK behind the world. Probably fit in well with the folk at downing street and whitehall.
Mr. Glenn, I can't speak for any ce if it returns to being a self-governing nation state. So the project fear which is all based around hypothetical short-term economic effects just wash over me. I shall vote accordingly.
Thanks for posting that. I share your lack of patience for narrow and short-term arguments about economics. I am also concerned with the future of Britain over the long term. I want it to be a better place to live and a country that better supports the aspirations of its people to do well.
We are currently living through an era of unprecedented globalisation which is leaving too many behind. Our political class and their opposite numbers in other Western countries have so far failed to find the right answers to deal with these trends. Against that background it might seem that opting out of the EU would make sense, or failing that, would send a message to the elites, but this would be merely a short-term cri de cœur.
We should never forget that Britain's future is inextricably linked with the future of Europe as a whole. We are an island nation in the literal sense only. What use is the satisfaction of independence if Europe burns around us? Conversely what is the price of independence if it means that Britain plays no role in the denouement of centuries of European rivalry as Europe takes its place in a newly globally-industrialised world? Britain is not a bit-part actor but a country that has earned its place at the centre of world hi
You mention gld GDP.
Europe is only 7% of the world's population but has 17% of the world's gdp, it was always inevitable its share of gdp would decline as areas like China and India with vast populations developed. China and India have stated they want the UK in the EU for trade deals etc but I doubt they feel strongly either way
China and India are worried that in the event of a Brexit that the EU will become even more insular and inward-looking....which is understandable from their view point. But as I've said during this campaign before, a Brexit sets off a domino effect of Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leaving the EU. And polls amongst other EU countries show that their residents see that reality too. So they'll have a whole lot more trade negotiations to undertake.
Yes Hunchman but what about the goings on near 'Farm Walk Tennis club'
I'm clarifying with OGH where I can go with that! If you want to know the latest goings on then see the latest podcast this week on Raconteur news. The noose is starting to tighten slowly but surely.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
Since they cancel each other out you have the opportunity to send an extra message by spoiling both ballots. You should consult with her on the specific message/picture/origami/combination of sauces that you'll be deploying on hers.
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
I'm in the 20% Nationalist segment.
No surprise there. If it was only 1%, you'd be there. I think in your case, I would choose a slightly stronger description.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
Having visited Slovenia about 15 times in the last 7 years or so, I am surprised that it scores that low.
*Betting Post* The publicity shy Paddy Power (to quote a PB favourite) are offering 80/1 on Valverde for Le Tour. While his chances of winning are very slim, I think he has a good shot for a place on the podium. I've taken a slice as an e/w bet. Nairo Quintana has imo a better chance than Froomy of taking yellow as I don't think he will make the same mistakes in the first week like last year (currently 2/1 on Betfair). As PfP says DYOR.
Valverde just finished the Giro on the podium. Kruijswijk crashing helping him out. He looked to be struggling on the highest climbs. Surely he will be working for Quintana. Froome has just posted a super time in the criterium du dauphine prolouge.
You view the EU as having same importance as your country the UK. Therefore it labels you as a europhile. You also put the UK behind the world. Probably fit in well with the folk at downing street and whitehall.
I don't consider how much I identify with things to be a measure of their importance to me. But if that's how the quiz is performing the calculations then I suppose it explains the results.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
Having visited Slovenia about 15 times in the last 7 years or so, I am surprised that it scores that low.
Its on my list of places to go - the Julian Alps with their limestone formations look amazing, as well as that town on their oh so small strip of coast. Some friends have recommended Ljubljana to me as well.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
A large part of it is outwith NHS contol. Those percentages for preventable deaths correlate well with obesity rates. The NHS cannot stop Britons being Pizza and chocolate scoffing couch potatos.
I took that test yesterday. Apparently I'm a Europhile along with 9% of the population. Obviously neither part of the result surprises me greatly. Though I never use the words europhile or europhobe myself as they are horribly ugly words.
I'm in the 20% Nationalist segment.
Me too, which I resent given I regard myself as a citizen of the world - I put 10 out of 10 in the section on identifying with the world, and 0 with the EU - how that makes me a Nationalist I don't know! And then at the end when it said Nationalists most strongly associate with being against the EU? What about all the SNP supporters who will vote to remain in the EU regrettably a fortnight on Thursday?!!
Certainly not politically. You'd think after all this time there would be pan-EU parties contesting the European Parliament elections. But there isn't. We still elect parties of our own countries.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
Oh please. I've not heard one person on my travels around Europe describe themselves as European before their own nationality. Europe is a patchwork of identities and cultures. Even a lot of the remain apologists wouldn't dream of arguing that. Rather there are lots of sub-cultures - Nordic, Mediterranean, high-culture Central European, Slavic bloc in the Balkans, Russian sphere of influence further east and then the UK / Ireland - to describe that lot as one culture and identity is nuts!
James Kirkup (Tgraph) on Sky wonders if Corbyn has a secret plan to starve REMAIN of Labour help so that they lose as Corbyn believes creates more problems for the Govt.
AKA The Napoleon strategy of not interrupting opponents when they are making mistakes.
Well, Labour have been mostly anonymous and aloof during this campaign.
I think Corbyn is taking a very risky gamble. If Labour more or less sits it out Leave could win. It then goes horribly wrong and hey presto he wins a GE in 2020.
I have to say that his best (only?) hope of winning in 2020 is if we Leave and it proves to be such a disaster that the backlash pushes him over the line. Within a few months of a Leave win the Tories will be led by someone very closely identified with Brexit - if it goes tits up the electorate's desire for revenge will be fulsome.
Can anyone really think of a better scenario for winning the GE from Corbyn's point of view?
Why would the electorate want revenge when they themselves voted for Brexit? Personally I think Corbyn has a low ceiling but a high floor, ie today's Opinium still has Labour on the 30% they got at the last general election. I cannot s
The electorate would want revenge because they would consider that they had been taken for a ride by Leave politicians if their promises don't materialise. They would exonerate themselves from having voted for Brexit because they would believe they had been lied to. The electorate are very fickle and the political landscape can change overnight.
Well surely that would lead to a return to government by Osborne then, on the basis that all his scare stories were right, I fail to see why it would benefit Corbyn?
It probably depends on which scare story turns out to be true on Brexit. It seems many (most?) voting for Leave are doing so because of migration. It'll take years to turn that around and introduce a points system and all the rest of it. It seems likely that it will not even be possible and still get a trade deal. Will the electorate give Brexit Tories years to sort it out or will they have been expecting an immediate cut to 10s of 1000s?
Yes well if immigration is not cut it would be a populist UKIP style party that benefits, not Corbyn
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
Since they cancel each other out you have the opportunity to send an extra message by spoiling both ballots. You should consult with her on the specific message/picture/origami/combination of sauces that you'll be deploying on hers.
My neighbours are classic C2's One spouse is for In and one is for Out. No discernible reason for this. That's why this referendum is devilishly difficult to call.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
Having visited Slovenia about 15 times in the last 7 years or so, I am surprised that it scores that low.
Its on my list of places to go - the Julian Alps with their limestone formations look amazing, as well as that town on their oh so small strip of coast. Some friends have recommended Ljubljana to me as well.
Ljubljana is a pretty little city. If you go, the castle is well worth a visit. And if you have a sweet tooth, there are some awesome cake shops too.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
Oh please. I've not heard one person on my travels around Europe describe themselves as European before their own nationality. Europe is a patchwork of identities and cultures. Even a lot of the remain apologists wouldn't dream of arguing that. Rather there are lots of sub-cultures - Nordic, Mediterranean, high-culture Central European, Slavic bloc in the Balkans, Russian sphere of influence further east and then the UK / Ireland - to describe that lot as one culture and identity is nuts!
I didn't say there was one and only one identity. Identity is multi-tiered.
If you're in Saudi Arabia and meet a Dutchman, do you not think there is an element of kinship? Have you travelled much outside Europe?
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
Oh please. I've not heard one person on my travels around Europe describe themselves as European before their own nationality. Europe is a patchwork of identities and cultures. Even a lot of the remain apologists wouldn't dream of arguing that. Rather there are lots of sub-cultures - Nordic, Mediterranean, high-culture Central European, Slavic bloc in the Balkans, Russian sphere of influence further east and then the UK / Ireland - to describe that lot as one culture and identity is nuts!
I didn't say there was one and only one identity. Identity is multi-tiered.
If you're in Saudi Arabia and meet a Dutchman, do you not think there is an element of kinship? Have you travelled much outside Europe?
South America 4 times, Australia 4 times, Russia, China, Mongolia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mauritius, Reunion, Tanzania , US, Canada so just a bit! And I'm off to Central Asia in 6 weeks times which I'm very much looking forward to, post Brexit hopefully!
Whether its a Dutchman or an American or whoever, they're a citizen of the world. There is an element of kinship to use your lingo just from that alone.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
Since they cancel each other out you have the opportunity to send an extra message by spoiling both ballots. You should consult with her on the specific message/picture/origami/combination of sauces that you'll be deploying on hers.
Robert, there is a duty on citizens to vote. So vote for both of you. There is also a duty (and decency factor) to respect your loved ones' wishes. Do so. Ask your wife explicitly how she wants you to vote on her behalf. If you can persuade her that her mother will be able to stay even after Brexit (most likely as I'd expect some grandfathering clause on such issues), then all the better and vote Brexit on her behalf. If not, vote Remain on her behalf.
PS This is better than letting the two votes cancel each other out as it increases the turnout percentage and hence the legitimacy of the result.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
Forget Immigration, economics, centralisation etc. They are all symptoms. You highlight the cause.. There is just too much of a cultural gap. Both because ofnisolation from Europe since 1536 and because we have absorbed too much non european culture from across the seas.
If you disregard the postcolonial issues, It would be easier to federate with India than Europe now.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
Forget Immigration, economics, centralisation etc. They are all symptoms. You highlight the cause.. There is just too much of a cultural gap.
You perceive it as a huge cultural gap because of the 'narcissism of small differences'.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
You should execute your instructions faithfully
"So honey, do you want me to exercise your proxy in a way that best ensures our happiness as a family? And when I say 'family', I'm talking specifically, about you, our two children, and me."
I would assume that you didn't marry a dunce. I would also assume that like all men (myself included) you have an inflated sense of your own worth within the family.
Work on the basis that your wife is equally as bright as you, will have worked out her own reasons for wanting to vote Remain and has just as much right to have her views respected as you do.
Cast her vote as she has asked.
Disagree:
Even if the missus was not the brightest-penny in the Junior purse her view should be respected. If Wodger asked me to be his proxy I would respect his views and act accordingly (despite my sense of intellectual superiority)....
The Sky survey team should immediately refund Sky for this total nonsence. They have managed to try and fit Scottish (and Irish nationalists) into their silly boxes and ended up with seriously daft results.
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
working class = those who work work shy benefit scroungers = under class
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
Forget Immigration, economics, centralisation etc. They are all symptoms. You highlight the cause.. There is just too much of a cultural gap.
You perceive it as a huge cultural gap because of the 'narcissism of small differences'.
Not true, everything from having a tutally dufferent law system to the UK not having experienced invasion with pillage arbitary execution, forced labour and mass rape for 1000 years while it has been regular fare in Europe in that period to as recently as twenty years ago.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
My wife has asked me to be her proxy in the Euro elections (she's going to be in Rome on the 23rd). As her mother is Portuguese, but lives in the UK (don't worry she doesn't claim a penny in benefits), she's quite keen for her to be able to stay.
So, campers: do I use this as an opportunity to not vote at all (her proxy and my physical cancel each other out); 'forget' to vote on her behalf'; or go down and vote for the two of us (in two competing directions)?
(I would note that I would prefer my mother in law to live in Portugal.)
Since they cancel each other out you have the opportunity to send an extra message by spoiling both ballots. You should consult with her on the specific message/picture/origami/combination of sauces that you'll be deploying on hers.
My neighbours are classic C2's One spouse is for In and one is for Out. No discernible reason for this. That's why this referendum is devilishly difficult to call.
Yes, my experience too.
Those who never meet anyone voting the other way are mostly those impervious to listening, and this applies to both sides.
My vote will be for Remain (for many reasons including wanting the destruction of the Tories), but my best payoff on the betting is Leave winning 55% and a turnout of < 60%.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
Forget Immigration, economics, centralisation etc. They are all symptoms. You highlight the cause.. There is just too much of a cultural gap.
You perceive it as a huge cultural gap because of the 'narcissism of small differences'.
Yet the differences are not just there but very, very real. We don't even share the Napoleonic code as the fundamental basis for our justice system.
We share far more in common with other Common Law Anglophone nations than we do continental Europe.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
Having visited Slovenia about 15 times in the last 7 years or so, I am surprised that it scores that low.
Its on my list of places to go - the Julian Alps with their limestone formations look amazing, as well as that town on their oh so small strip of coast. Some friends have recommended Ljubljana to me as well.
For such a small country, it has an awful lot to see and love.
Lake Bled is other worldly. Lake Bohinj is serene.
If you like horses, the original Lipizzana stud is at the town of Lipica, with literally hundreds of Lipizzana stallions, mares and foals. http://www.lipica.org/en/
Ljubljana and several of the towns, e.g. Skofja Loka, are wonderful examples of Mittel Europ style architecture.
All in all, I'd liken Slovenia to a slightly more human (scruffy) Switzerland.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
It proves that the concept of 'we' covers a multitude of sins.
Good start there, claiming Slovenia is a former Soviet state. Marshall Tito would doubtless have been surprised to learn this, given how much he hated the Soviets and how much effort he expended in persuading Khrushchev to accept that it was possible to 'follow different paths to Socialism.'
A large part of it is outwith NHS contol. Those percentages for preventable deaths correlate well with obesity rates. The NHS cannot stop Britons being Pizza and chocolate scoffing couch potatos.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
I have lived in the USA, Australia and New Zealand, all lovely countries, but I feel very European when there, even in Melbourne with its large Italian, Yugoslav and Greek populations.
Money now going in on Leave - 12/5 best odds on oddschecker - was 5/2. 3.45-3.5 on Betfair. (Leave has seem tighter odds of course - now about 29% implied probability)
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
There is no European identify, and the shared culture, which is under assault even if it is not anywhere near its deathbed, is that of Western Civilisation, not Europe per se.
The millions who died in the world wars would have found your claim that we were isolated from Europe to be a sick joke.
1536 was a huge breach which led to literal isolation for 100+ years followed by cultural isolation for many more. Europe is another place where we intervene from time to time to stop any threat to us but it is not home or even near home to the majority any more than China is to the Japanese.
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
working class = those who work work shy benefit scroungers = under class
No such distinction was made in the Tax Credits debate.
*Betting Post* The publicity shy Paddy Power (to quote a PB favourite) are offering 80/1 on Valverde for Le Tour. While his chances of winning are very slim, I think he has a good shot for a place on the podium. I've taken a slice as an e/w bet. Nairo Quintana has imo a better chance than Froomy of taking yellow as I don't think he will make the same mistakes in the first week like last year (currently 2/1 on Betfair). As PfP says DYOR.
Anecdote stuff: went out canvassing with a dozen people on an Islington former council estate, mostly WWC. 64% remain, 10% leave, 5% won't vote, 21% don't know. The estate was relatively low turnout in the Mayoral election, and I'd guess the don't knows mostly won't vote. The Leaves were nearly all identified as Tory or UKIP in the GE - if there's a Labour WWC Leave vote in London it wasn't showing up much. Jeremy's endorsement makes a difference in this particular patch, though - two families said they were voting Remain simply because he'd advised it. Interest quite high.
One of the councillors on the round commented that the big difference from thhe old council estate culture is that the classic council estates were full of people with community involvement - unions, evening classes, street parties and so on - whereas now they're a mixed bag of people who've moved in because renting is a bit cheaper there and have no special influences pushing them into the Labour movement, so turnout is lower and less monolithically Labour. Nonetheless, moderately encouraging for Remain.
By contrast, a journalist who'd been at the Broxtowe debate this week said it was absolutely packed, and strongly pro-Leave, even though Anna and indeed most local politicians are strong Remain. There's no doubt that the Leave camp has got more zeal.
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
working class = those who work work shy benefit scroungers = under class
No such distinction was made in the Tax Credits debate.
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
working class = those who work work shy benefit scroungers = under class
No such distinction was made in the Tax Credits debate.
Sorry I did not take part in that HoC debate.
I meant the debate on here. The same people the Leave posters are now lionising are those they were dismissing as work shy and keen to strip in-work benefits from last autumn.
Incidentally, the Mayor-elect for my area tells me she went to an advisory session for Mayors on how to behave properly (cut your hair shorter, carry a spare pair of smart shoes, etc.), and she was interested to see that one of the advisory panel was Brian Coleman. I wouldn't have thought he was necessarily the ideal adviser on etiquette.
Besides those places already mentioned, the Soca Valley is breathtakingly beautiful. Incredible to think that half a million died there in the First World War - it doesn't seem big enough to have taken anything like those numbers.
Oh, and particularly don't tell anyone about Hisa Franko at Kobarid.
Incidentally, the Mayor-elect for my area tells me she went to an advisory session for Mayors on how to behave properly (cut your hair shorter, carry a spare pair of smart shoes, etc.), and she was interested to see that one of the advisory panel was Brian Coleman. I wouldn't have thought he was necessarily the ideal adviser on etiquette.
Perhaps he dealt with the 'How not to do it' section.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
There is no European identify, and the shared culture, which is under assault even if it is not anywhere near its deathbed, is that of Western Civilisation, not Europe per se.
On the second point I agree with you, but there is something unique about the historical experience of the mother countries of Western Civilisation which still exist on European soil. We collectively went through the trauma of the last century and came out of it battered and diminished in the world. We owe it to ourselves to take seriously the need to create stable pan-European institutions to ensure that we never again succumb to such madness.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
I have lived in the USA, Australia and New Zealand, all lovely countries, but I feel very European when there, even in Melbourne with its large Italian, Yugoslav and Greek populations.
I feel very European when I am in the US, but that does not prove that the UK shares more with Europe than with the Anglosphere.
At a cultural level, in particular, there is a huge divide between the more social cultures (most of continental Europe more or less aligning with Catholic or Orthodox majorities plus Scandinavia) and the more individualistic ones (Anglosphere plus to a lesser extent NL). Germany seems to have both tendencies. On this parameter, the UK is far closer to the US and Old Dominions than to France or Italy.
Re Nick's canvassing experience would be interested to know how many on this 'former' council estate are private renters? If so, being in Islington, I wouldn't expect it to be anything other than strong Remain
Encouraging signs for Murray after the opening break to love.
Indeed yes, excellent break back and a faultless third game.
With due respect to Murray, I expect Djokovic to win. But it wouldn't perhaps be as big an upset as yesterday if Murray somehow were to take the title.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
I have lived in the USA, Australia and New Zealand, all lovely countries, but I feel very European when there, even in Melbourne with its large Italian, Yugoslav and Greek populations.
I feel very European when I am in the US, but that does not prove that the UK shares more with Europe than with the Anglosphere.
At a cultural level, in particular, there is a huge divide between the more social cultures (most of continental Europe more or less aligning with Catholic or Orthodox majorities plus Scandinavia) and the more individualistic ones (Anglosphere plus to a lesser extent NL). Germany seems to have both tendencies. On this parameter, the UK is far closer to the US and Old Dominions than to France or Italy.
But in other ways the US has more in common culturally with France than with the UK. Their revolutions almost paralleled each other. France was a major contributor to the intellectual foundation of individualism.
This is not something with a simple answer and a common language can be a deceptive factor.
It's very heartening to see the Leave supporters on here taking up the cause of the "dispossessed" white working class. Perhaps it will be enough for them to forgive the same posters for the 6 years of being labelled as work shy benefit scroungers.
working class = those who work work shy benefit scroungers = under class
No such distinction was made in the Tax Credits debate.
Sorry I did not take part in that HoC debate.
I meant the debate on here. The same people the Leave posters are now lionising are those they were dismissing as work shy and keen to strip in-work benefits from last autumn.
Politics makes strange bedfellows - Cameron - Kahn comes to mind.
Besides those places already mentioned, the Soca Valley is breathtakingly beautiful. Incredible to think that half a million died there in the First World War - it doesn't seem big enough to have taken anything like those numbers.
Oh, and particularly don't tell anyone about Hisa Franko at Kobarid.
I don't know the interior, but l love the Istrian coast, both Slovenian and Croatian.
Besides those places already mentioned, the Soca Valley is breathtakingly beautiful. Incredible to think that half a million died there in the First World War - it doesn't seem big enough to have taken anything like those numbers.
Oh, and particularly don't tell anyone about Hisa Franko at Kobarid.
I don't know the interior, but l love the Istrian coast, both Slovenian and Croatian.
Indeed, I forgot to add Piran as a must visit town.
This attitude is what will be the death of us as a civilisation. There really is such a thing as European culture and identity.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
This is just rubbish. We are far closer culturally to the rest of the Anglosphere than we are to mainland Europe. Whatever the origins of our civilisation or culture we have moved far beyond those bounds.
You may feel that way but I and many others are counter-examples to your point, and I've lived in the US (California) and mainland Europe.
And I have lived and worked in 4 separate European countries as well as the US, Middle East and North Africa. It proves nothing in this argument.
I have lived in the USA, Australia and New Zealand, all lovely countries, but I feel very European when there, even in Melbourne with its large Italian, Yugoslav and Greek populations.
I feel very European when I am in the US, but that does not prove that the UK shares more with Europe than with the Anglosphere.
At a cultural level, in particular, there is a huge divide between the more social cultures (most of continental Europe more or less aligning with Catholic or Orthodox majorities plus Scandinavia) and the more individualistic ones (Anglosphere plus to a lesser extent NL). Germany seems to have both tendencies. On this parameter, the UK is far closer to the US and Old Dominions than to France or Italy.
I think you could divide europe in any number of ways (e.g. N. Europe large beers, drinking while standing without food. S. Europe, wine with nice dinners), but basically meaningless. Anyway, these things are pretty flexible. The USA has fused plenty of different cultures in a relatively short time
Encouraging signs for Murray after the opening break to love.
Indeed yes, excellent break back and a faultless third game.
With due respect to Murray, I expect Djokovic to win. But it wouldn't perhaps be as big an upset as yesterday if Murray somehow were to take the title.
Rome plus pressure Djokovic puts on himself to complete the grand slam set are two factors in Murray's favour - its going to be a fascinating next 3 or 4 hours.
This is not something with a simple answer and a common language can be a deceptive factor.
On that we can agree. Much about the US was foreign to me when I first arrived. I don't feel it so much now, and much about the UK now feels foreign to me. But overall, I do think that, at the very cultural core, the UK is closer to the US than France.
Matthew Holehouse EU budget "exhausted" . MEPs demand ceilings lifted. Migration bills mount. Woe for Cameron coming. https://t.co/tVQ8nI6sRq
This needs shouting from the rooftops. Presumably it's just more bad news, the formal announcement of which is being conveniently postponed until after the June 23 Referendum.
Comments
Ireland will get quite a few of the investment that came to Britain particularly in manufacturing. Automotive, for example. I am not saying Nissan, Toyota, Honda will suddenly close their plants but future investments will be more selective. A lot of US investment, already going to Ireland, will increase.
If Brexit wins, buy property in Ireland !
Cable is c. 8 times as fast as broadband, but in practice I find broadband OK unless you have heavy pressure on the system. As a single man, my broadband is adequate 95% of the time - a colleague who has four children needs cable. Like I said, I find Cannock slower and less stable than rural Gloucestershire, so I will probably jump to cable when my current contract is up.
Curiously the worst internet connection I've ever come across was in central Guildford - a pitiful 0.5 Mbps.
Anecdote alert:
Chat over the garden fence with my neighbour (painter and decorator turned small business owner with a thriving decorating company). Was decided for Leave, but now moving to undecided. Worries re immigrants vs concerns about being able to retire to Spain.
Now in the event of a global sovereign debt crisis / global depression over the next 4 years, I hope Europe returns to what it should be all along, free trading nation states. There is no European identity or culture, I'm not a European Unionist. When the hand and glove don't fit, its time to move on.
BT have plans to put fibre to the street cabinet, but not to individual houses.
Apparently we take pride in our country and view it as making a unique contribution to the world's culture.
Now who would not have pride?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3625650/NHS-blamed-Britons-die-needlessly-Damning-report-says-60-000-avoidable-deaths-year-UK-racks-worse-record-Slovenia.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060
The City of London will be brought down by its own corruption though (including everything that goes through that notorious address and plenty of other addresses I could mention) rather than by Brexit as the remain camp claim. Which is historically the case when you look at collapses - communism collapsed of its own accord, Rome too and lots of other historical empires through their own contradictions and corruption.
Even if the missus was not the brightest-penny in the Junior purse her view should be respected. If Wodger asked me to be his proxy I would respect his views and act accordingly (despite my sense of intellectual superiority)....
He looked to be struggling on the highest climbs.
Surely he will be working for Quintana.
Froome has just posted a super time in the criterium du dauphine prolouge.
It might help to think of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc as offshoots of Europe. The fact that the 'Europe over the oceans' is overwhelmingly anglophone does seem to exacerbate the British identity crisis, but shouldn't blind us to the essential truth that we are a European country.
EU budget "exhausted" . MEPs demand ceilings lifted. Migration bills mount. Woe for Cameron coming. https://t.co/tVQ8nI6sRq
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Overweight_and_obesity_-_BMI_statistics
And if you have a sweet tooth, there are some awesome cake shops too.
If you're in Saudi Arabia and meet a Dutchman, do you not think there is an element of kinship? Have you travelled much outside Europe?
Now on something we can all agree on - come on Andy Murray!
Every left-leaning argument in favour of #Brexit available here > https://t.co/6JK4xSuMO7 #LabourLeave https://t.co/L7E2UTMOxL
Whether its a Dutchman or an American or whoever, they're a citizen of the world. There is an element of kinship to use your lingo just from that alone.
PS This is better than letting the two votes cancel each other out as it increases the turnout percentage and hence the legitimacy of the result.
If you disregard the postcolonial issues, It would be easier to federate with India than Europe now.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-ill-make-brexit-camp-pay-for-their-nonsense-on-stilts-says-david-cameron-a7065906.html
work shy benefit scroungers = under class
(ducks his head)
Those who never meet anyone voting the other way are mostly those impervious to listening, and this applies to both sides.
My vote will be for Remain (for many reasons including wanting the destruction of the Tories), but my best payoff on the betting is Leave winning 55% and a turnout of < 60%.
The millions who died in the world wars would have found your claim that we were isolated from Europe to be a sick joke.
We share far more in common with other Common Law Anglophone nations than we do continental Europe.
Lake Bled is other worldly. Lake Bohinj is serene.
The caves in Postojna are amazing, along with live Proteus to view. New babies have just been born/hatched. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35668069
If you like horses, the original Lipizzana stud is at the town of Lipica, with literally hundreds of Lipizzana stallions, mares and foals. http://www.lipica.org/en/
Ljubljana and several of the towns, e.g. Skofja Loka, are wonderful examples of Mittel Europ style architecture.
All in all, I'd liken Slovenia to a slightly more human (scruffy) Switzerland.
One of the councillors on the round commented that the big difference from thhe old council estate culture is that the classic council estates were full of people with community involvement - unions, evening classes, street parties and so on - whereas now they're a mixed bag of people who've moved in because renting is a bit cheaper there and have no special influences pushing them into the Labour movement, so turnout is lower and less monolithically Labour. Nonetheless, moderately encouraging for Remain.
By contrast, a journalist who'd been at the Broxtowe debate this week said it was absolutely packed, and strongly pro-Leave, even though Anna and indeed most local politicians are strong Remain. There's no doubt that the Leave camp has got more zeal.
Besides those places already mentioned, the Soca Valley is breathtakingly beautiful. Incredible to think that half a million died there in the First World War - it doesn't seem big enough to have taken anything like those numbers.
Oh, and particularly don't tell anyone about Hisa Franko at Kobarid.
At a cultural level, in particular, there is a huge divide between the more social cultures (most of continental Europe more or less aligning with Catholic or Orthodox majorities plus Scandinavia) and the more individualistic ones (Anglosphere plus to a lesser extent NL). Germany seems to have both tendencies. On this parameter, the UK is far closer to the US and Old Dominions than to France or Italy.
"Slovenia is wonderful. Just don't tell anybody."
Lake Bohinj is far better than Bled. I've been three times and there's always something new to see. Not one for late-night clubbers, though.
With due respect to Murray, I expect Djokovic to win. But it wouldn't perhaps be as big an upset as yesterday if Murray somehow were to take the title.
This is not something with a simple answer and a common language can be a deceptive factor.
Unusual as well that Murray seems to have the better second serve.
Can we dare to dream?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Using_the_Wayback_Machine
Thanks for all the posts on Slovenia - it packs a lot in for a relatively small country.