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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remain appear to be winning the ground game but looks like

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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    If we left the EU, Ireland might too....
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,198
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
    I thought we'd passed that point long ago......
    What kind of diet do you want. 0.1 hectares per person for a nutritious but entirely vegetarian diet.
    With ~17 million hectares of arable land, that corresponds to a maximum population of 170 million!
    That .1 hectare figure is making assumptions about good water management, no soil erosion and no food waste.

    For our current diet it's 0.5 hectares.
    Are you saying we are all fat bastards? ;)
    No, he is saying we like a steak. And I do.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OMG The Brexit Concert have got most of Bucks Fizz performing at their gig.

    And they've done a Gordon Brown, and hired an Elvis impersonator as well.

    https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/738066991018311681

    They will be pushing that line that there comes a time for making your mind up.
    I'm surprised they're still going. I used Cheryl on a Yogurt ad years ago. She had to put a spoon in her mouth pull it out and say "it's so rich and creamy" It was supposed to be sexy but watching this creamy stuff inside her mouth when she delivered her her line made it look like something altogether more sinister. But It made for a funny shoot.
    I am sure I read somewhere you had had a successful career in advertising...shooting yoghurt adverts with Cheryl Baker is certainly an interesting definition of success.
    i was younger then!
    Those embarrassing crappy jobs we all do when we were younger eh...

    I am just pulling your leg btw.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Cookie said:


    Most of us don't have the language skills to exercise such a right.

    Brits have all the language skills they'll need. English simply is now the default language.

    I don't know quite how they've done it but French-persons worldwide seem to accept this and at the same time have a secret smile amongst themselves :) Perhaps it's because English is undoubtedly now the 'common' tongue.

  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    But we have recently spent several equally boring months being told that Scotland, which wishes to remain part of the EU, is indeed another country.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2016
    RobD said:



    Are you saying we are all fat bastards? ;)

    Eating meat is (mostly) a grossly inefficient but very tasty use of agricultural land.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Obviously. Belfast is part of the UK. Dublin isn't. I would have no problem in principle if the Irish government chose to impose immigration controls on British citizens.

    But, I can see why neither government would wish to do so, in view of the 1998 agreement.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,698
    I have been wondering whether it is best to insure against a BREXIT by placing a bet or buying currency. Here's the math.

    Firstly, let's throw away the online options. Most people will bet in a betting shop or trade currency in a bureau de change, and these things have costs. At about noon today the options for GBP-USD were:

    * Eurochange's buy/sell for GBP->USD is buy at 1.42, sell at 1.54, midpoint 1.48[1].
    * Ladbrokes Remain/Leave odds are 3/10 vs 5/2[2]

    I'll assume GBP on LEAVE drops to $1.2 (buy 1.14, sell 1.26) and rises to 1.5 (buy 1.44, sell 1.56) on REMAIN. So let's go thru each case.

    CASE 1: £1000 CURRENCY
    Our cautious consumer takes £1000 and buys dollars from Eurochange, getting 1000*1.42 = $1,420. If he has buyer's remorse he can immediately change back but he would get 1420/1.54 = £922, an immediate loss of £78. So he waits. On a LEAVE vote GBP dives to $1.2. He converts his $1420 dollars back to GBP, which gives him 1420/1.26 = £1127, a profit of £127. Conversely if REMAIN, GBP rises to £1.5, he converts back so 1420/1.56 = £910, a loss of £90

    CASE 2: £1000 BETTING
    Our more adventurous consumer takes £1000 and bets on LEAVE@5/2. On a LEAVE vote he recieves £2500 plus his stake, a return of £3500. On a REMAIN vote he recieves nothing

    So the summary is:

    * CASE 1: CURRENCY: £922 (buyer's remorse), $1127 (LEAVE wins), $910 (LEAVE loses)
    * CASE 2: BETTING : £000 (buyer's remorse), $3500 (LEAVE wins), $000 (LEAVE loses)

    So currency conversion gives little reassurance but large risk, betting gives great reassurance but large risk. In conclusion, if you are sorely troubled by LEAVE you should bet not convert, but if only moderately troubled currency conversion seems good

    Notes
    * [1] Yes, really. I think there's a delay. I thought they update their rates instantaneously but apparently not.
    * [2] 0.77 vs 0.29, an overround of 1.06-1 = 6%. Isn't that low for a political betting market? I'll take that to assume liquidity is increasing
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,001
    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    But a pretty impractical one. Most of us don't have the language skills to exercise such a right. It would be far more useful for far more people to have the right to live and work in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand - and I think we would be fairly happy for those rights to be reciprocal. The right to go and work in France or Italy or Romania isn't really much use to many beyond a small minority. I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, but I don't think many people can get too excited by it.
    Quite and one of the deep problems of the Euro. It's all well and good having the right to work in Italy, and you might be a highly qualified lawyer, accountant actor or whatever but if you can't speak Italian that right is severely limited in practice. There isn't the real free movement of labour as between Sussex and Dundee, Chicago and Alabama or Stuttgart and Leipzig.

    There isn't a European "polis" despite decades of trying to will one into existence by creating Euro parliaments, passports, currencies, or regional development funds.
    Well that is a little like noting that accountants aren't free to work as doctors. Naturally if you do not have a skill, you will not achieve a job. However, in so far as international employment in the EU is concerned, of course the desire to recruit English-speakers gives UK applicants a huge advantage in skilled fields.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    OT. If anyone wants a good reason to be keep Europe as close to our collective bosom as we can watch 'Francesco's Venice'.

    Then consider that we can go there to work or live as easily as we can Grimsby.

    (PS BBC at its very best)
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    But a pretty impractical one. Most of us don't have the language skills to exercise such a right. It would be far more useful for far more people to have the right to live and work in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand - and I think we would be fairly happy for those rights to be reciprocal. The right to go and work in France or Italy or Romania isn't really much use to many beyond a small minority. I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, but I don't think many people can get too excited by it.
    Quite and one of the deep problems of the Euro. It's all well and good having the right to work in Italy, and you might be a highly qualified lawyer, accountant actor or whatever but if you can't speak Italian that right is severely limited in practice. There isn't the real free movement of labour as between Sussex and Dundee, Chicago and Alabama or Stuttgart and Leipzig.

    There isn't a European "polis" despite decades of trying to will one into existence by creating Euro parliaments, passports, currencies, or regional development funds.
    Yesterday the possibility was mentioned of the EU as-is collapsing and being rebuilt afresh. Perhaps one great improvement of the next attempt will be to adopt English as the single working language.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016

    OMG The Brexit Concert have got most of Bucks Fizz performing at their gig.

    And they've done a Gordon Brown, and hired an Elvis impersonator as well.

    https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/738066991018311681

    It's The Wonder, The Wonder of EU......

    Ladies and gentlemen, Britain...has left the building.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,388
    Roger said:

    OT. If anyone wants a good reason to be keep Europe as close to our collective bosom as we can watch 'Francesco's Venice'.

    Then consider that we can go there to work or live as easily as we can Grimsby.

    (PS BBC at its very best)

    1) Did you know there is a fish dock tower thing in Grimsby modelled on Venice? (You can look up the details yourself; I cant be bothered, its nearly tea time).
    2) Have you ever tried to live and/or work in Venice? It must be the most impractical city in Europe for either. It's astonishing that it still exists; a testament to Venetian bloody-mindedness. The fact that it has basically just been there for the tourists for probably the last 300 years or so takes absolutely nothing away from how glorious a place it is.
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    chestnut said:

    OMG The Brexit Concert have got most of Bucks Fizz performing at their gig.

    And they've done a Gordon Brown, and hired an Elvis impersonator as well.

    https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/738066991018311681

    It's The Wonder, The Wonder of EU......
    "But if you wanna cede some more..."
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    Yes it was a disaster. If I could turn back history I would also reverse the union of 1801 which was also a disaster.

    I wuuld much prefer to see a united ireland as a free self governing state as Australia is with the Queen as head of state

    Happy now?
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire for to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
    So that's some time in the 18th century then.
    Not if you include RoI and agricultural productivity increases since WW2
    So, if London declared independence, would that mean the rest of the UK was ready for massive immigrant?
    Good grief I was kust trying to think of an objective measure that related to population being able to support itself.

    I could have said water resources but on that measure the whole world can live here.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,698

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    Yes it was a disaster. If I could turn back history I would also reverse the union of 1801 which was also a disaster.

    I wuuld much prefer to see a united ireland as a free self governing state as Australia is with the Queen as head of state

    Happy now?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland_Act_1914 . One of the great "what-ifs" of 20th century UK history...
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    OT. If anyone wants a good reason to be keep Europe as close to our collective bosom as we can watch 'Francesco's Venice'.

    Then consider that we can go there to work or live as easily as we can Grimsby.

    (PS BBC at its very best)

    1) Did you know there is a fish dock tower thing in Grimsby modelled on Venice? (You can look up the details yourself; I cant be bothered, its nearly tea time).
    2) Have you ever tried to live and/or work in Venice? It must be the most impractical city in Europe for either. It's astonishing that it still exists; a testament to Venetian bloody-mindedness. The fact that it has basically just been there for the tourists for probably the last 300 years or so takes absolutely nothing away from how glorious a place it is.
    I chose Grimsby at random -probably because of the film of the same name-but I haven't looked for employment in Venice. I have worked there a few times though and found it very easy. Do they make life difficult?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    When they tell you the BBC got no money...

    Live blogging 1996 England vs Scotland footy game....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36258249
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460


    @EPG

    Yes in the sort of top 1% of jobs and in the bottom section language skills just need to be basic. But in the normal broad middle it's just not so. You need Italian to be a butcher baker or candlestick maker. As an example, actors can fairly seamlessly flow between here and the US or Australia and vice versa ( even though there are legal restrictions sure) in a way that is not going to happen between the RSC and Italian television or stage.

    Of course the English language is a major pull factor in the asymmetric migration between the UK and E Europe. I doubt proportionately for its population Finland ( say ) is thick with Bulgarian or Polish or whatever EU migrants.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Roger said:

    It is ridiculous that we have free entry to EU citizens yet our Kith and Kin and fellow subjects of Her Majesty do not.

    Even Germany give special preference to Ethnic Germans who live outside the EU.
    You don't even have to scratch the surface before the Mail revert to their roots. Little has really changed there since the mid 1930's
    Perbaps you would like to explain why giving preference to ethnic Britons, as Germany do for ethnic Germans is so vile?
    Is there even such a thing as 'ethnic Britons' in the sense you imply? The UK is a union of countries and the act of union was to some extent a union of ethnicities, was it not? Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Scots, Ulster Scots, Jews. Then there are several non-White ethnicities who were, within a few generations ago, subjects of the crown. You mentioned India yourself.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,198
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    OT. If anyone wants a good reason to be keep Europe as close to our collective bosom as we can watch 'Francesco's Venice'.

    Then consider that we can go there to work or live as easily as we can Grimsby.

    (PS BBC at its very best)

    1) Did you know there is a fish dock tower thing in Grimsby modelled on Venice? (You can look up the details yourself; I cant be bothered, its nearly tea time).
    2) Have you ever tried to live and/or work in Venice? It must be the most impractical city in Europe for either. It's astonishing that it still exists; a testament to Venetian bloody-mindedness. The fact that it has basically just been there for the tourists for probably the last 300 years or so takes absolutely nothing away from how glorious a place it is.
    I chose Grimsby at random -probably because of the film of the same name-but I haven't looked for employment in Venice. I have worked there a few times though and found it very easy. Do they make life difficult?
    The streets are really flooded. Ridiculous.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    If we left the EU, Ireland might too....
    It is certainly the easiest solution to border problems.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    Yes it was a disaster. If I could turn back history I would also reverse the union of 1801 which was also a disaster.

    I wuuld much prefer to see a united ireland as a free self governing state as Australia is with the Queen as head of state

    Happy now?
    I don't think you're being entirely honest. You clearly think Ireland's agricultural resources are there for the whole of the British Isles so your fantasy scenario doesn't involve a fully self-governing Irish state.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016
    Jobabob said:

    Roger said:

    It is ridiculous that we have free entry to EU citizens yet our Kith and Kin and fellow subjects of Her Majesty do not.

    Even Germany give special preference to Ethnic Germans who live outside the EU.
    You don't even have to scratch the surface before the Mail revert to their roots. Little has really changed there since the mid 1930's
    Perbaps you would like to explain why giving preference to ethnic Britons, as Germany do for ethnic Germans is so vile?
    Is there even such a thing as 'ethnic Britons' in the sense you imply? The UK is a union of countries and the act of union was to some extent a union of ethnicities, was it not? Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Scots, Ulster Scots, Jews. Then there are several non-White ethnicities who were, within a few generations ago, subjects of the crown. You mentioned India yourself.
    Basically anyone who can provide evidence that they originate from these Isles. At tbe moment unless you have a grandparent or parent who is British you are locked out - even if the only reason you are there was because your ancestos were out there on his majesties service or Transported there involuntarily.

    Meanwhile anyone from Slovakia or Latvia - far away places of which we know little is in, no questions asked.

    Edit Spelling - I wish OGH would set the blog up to be mobile compatible.

  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,001

    Jobabob said:

    Roger said:

    It is ridiculous that we have free entry to EU citizens yet our Kith and Kin and fellow subjects of Her Majesty do not.

    Even Germany give special preference to Ethnic Germans who live outside the EU.
    You don't even have to scratch the surface before the Mail revert to their roots. Little has really changed there since the mid 1930's
    Perbaps you would like to explain why giving preference to ethnic Britons, as Germany do for ethnic Germans is so vile?
    Is there even such a thing as 'ethnic Britons' in the sense you imply? The UK is a union of countries and the act of union was to some extent a union of ethnicities, was it not? Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Scots, Ulster Scots, Jews. Then there are several non-White ethnicities who were, within a few generations ago, subjects of the crown. You mentioned India yourself.
    Basically anyone who can provide evidence that they originate from these Isles. At tbe moment unless you have a grandparent or parent who is British you are locked out - even if the only reason you are there was because your ancestos were out there on his majesties service or Transported there involuntarily.

    Meanwhile anyone from Slovakia or Latvia - far away places of which we know little is in, no questions asked.

    Edit Spelling - I wish OGH would set the blog up to be mobile compatible.

    If the UK wants much more immigration from some countries, can't it say so without quitting Europe?
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    That's it. To me, they are other countries, with different traditions and interests, and I fail to see why I should have an automatic right to settle in them.
    So you'd support an automatic right to settle in Belfast, but not in Dublin?
    Thats irrelevant as treaties going back to partition make us honorsry citizens of each others states with all the rights that go with it.

    Thats why RoI citizens get to vote in the referendum if resident here
    You didn't answer my earlier question about your view on partition. Would you like to reverse it?
    Yes it was a disaster. If I could turn back history I would also reverse the union of 1801 which was also a disaster.

    I wuuld much prefer to see a united ireland as a free self governing state as Australia is with the Queen as head of state

    Happy now?
    I don't think you're being entirely honest. You clearly think Ireland's agricultural resources are there for the whole of the British Isles so your fantasy scenario doesn't involve a fully self-governing Irish state.
    Have you looked at where most Irish agricultural exports go. Their agricultural resources ARE there for the whole of the British Isles and if they were not RoI would be bankrupt.

    BTW Im a Catholic
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,001

    I don't think you're being entirely honest. You clearly think Ireland's agricultural resources are there for the whole of the British Isles so your fantasy scenario doesn't involve a fully self-governing Irish state.

    Have you looked at where most Irish agricultural exports go. Their agricultural resources ARE there for the whole of the British Isles and if they were not RoI would be bankrupt.

    BTW Im a Catholic
    Most don't go to the UK. I literally googled it in 10 seconds.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052



    I don't think you're being entirely honest. You clearly think Ireland's agricultural resources are there for the whole of the British Isles so your fantasy scenario doesn't involve a fully self-governing Irish state.

    Have you looked at where most Irish agricultural exports go. Their agricultural resources ARE there for the whole of the British Isles and if they were not RoI would be bankrupt.

    BTW Im a Catholic
    Well both states are currently part of a federal customs union called the EU which facilitates such mutually beneficial exchange. I would rather keep it that way, and keep the rest of the European states involved too.

    It's the Brexit camp that would imperil this rosy picture.
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    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    edited June 2016
    EPG said:

    If the UK wants much more immigration from some countries, can't it say so without quitting Europe?

    Should we vote to stay in, I will advocate a completely open door immigration policy. With a bit off luck it will kill of the welfare state and the NHS.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
    Hard to tell...it has been picked up by lots of media outlets.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    When they tell you the BBC got no money...

    Live blogging 1996 England vs Scotland footy game....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36258249

    Is there a market for the result/ scorer(s)?
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    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Anecdote alert.

    Talking at work today (mostly Remainers) to one remainer. He's voted by post, as has his wife and daughter. All Leave.

    With other remainers, the view is immigration is unacceptably high. They haven't voted yet. They may vote remain, they may vote leave. 3 weeks ago they were solid remain.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,698

    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
    One makes up fictional stories from whole cloth to satisfy its readership...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    weejonnie said:

    When they tell you the BBC got no money...

    Live blogging 1996 England vs Scotland footy game....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36258249

    Is there a market for the result/ scorer(s)?
    I was hoping crowdscores would help me get ahead of the plebs on this one...
  • Options
    EPG said:

    I don't think you're being entirely honest. You clearly think Ireland's agricultural resources are there for the whole of the British Isles so your fantasy scenario doesn't involve a fully self-governing Irish state.

    Have you looked at where most Irish agricultural exports go. Their agricultural resources ARE there for the whole of the British Isles and if they were not RoI would be bankrupt.

    BTW Im a Catholic
    Most don't go to the UK. I literally googled it in 10 seconds.
    41% to UK
    31% to rest of EU.
    28% to rest of the world.

    A plurality if not a majority !
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    Somalia attack: MPs among dead in hotel blast and gun raid

    Gunmen have stormed a hotel in the centre of the Somali capital Mogadishu, with reports of at least 10 dead and 50 wounded.

    The attackers entered the Ambassador Hotel on Maka al-Mukarama street after setting off a car bomb at the gates outside, witnesses said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36430306
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    viewcode said:

    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
    One makes up fictional stories from whole cloth to satisfy its readership...
    And the other one is a satirical look at tabloids...

    Yes, I get that, but which is which?
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    weejonnie said:

    When they tell you the BBC got no money...

    Live blogging 1996 England vs Scotland footy game....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36258249

    Is there a market for the result/ scorer(s)?
    Apparently Gazza's having a shocker, so I wouldn't back him ...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016

    weejonnie said:

    When they tell you the BBC got no money...

    Live blogging 1996 England vs Scotland footy game....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36258249

    Is there a market for the result/ scorer(s)?
    Apparently Gazza's having a shocker, so I wouldn't back him ...
    GET HIM OFFF.......

    Don't know about anybody else but picture quality is rubbish on my massive flatscreen.... ;-)
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Can someone remind me when Osbourne is going in front of Andrew Neil?
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
    One makes up fictional stories from whole cloth to satisfy its readership...
    It is increasingly difficult to tell sometimes.

    A good office lunchtime game is to read a headline out and get people to guess if it is Mail or Mash
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    Test
  • Options
    John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    The results of ICM's recent poll (data collected 27-29 May) were

    telephone - remain 42%, leave 45%, don't know, won't say or won't vote 15%
    online - remain 44% leave 47%, don't know, won't say or won't vote 9%

    or of those who expressed a preference

    both methods - remain 48%, leave 52%

    So the difference here is in the proportion of DK/WS/WV: 15% on the telephone, 9% online.

    And that looks to be the reason for the difference between phone and online results: shy Leavers on the phone. Is this supported by a qualitative consideration? Yes. Immigration is the main issue. Most people want to reduce it. And people have been told for decades that it's dirty to want to reduce it.



  • Options
    EPG said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:


    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.

    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    But a pretty impractical one. Most of us don't have the language skills to exercise such a right. It would be far more useful for far more people to have the right to live and work in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand - and I think we would be fairly happy for those rights to be reciprocal. The right to go and work in France or Italy or Romania isn't really much use to many beyond a small minority. I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, but I don't think many people can get too excited by it.
    Quite and one of the deep problems of the Euro. It's all well and good having the right to work in Italy, and you might be a highly qualified lawyer, accountant actor or whatever but if you can't speak Italian that right is severely limited in practice. There isn't the real free movement of labour as between Sussex and Dundee, Chicago and Alabama or Stuttgart and Leipzig.

    There isn't a European "polis" despite decades of trying to will one into existence by creating Euro parliaments, passports, currencies, or regional development funds.
    Well that is a little like noting that accountants aren't free to work as doctors. Naturally if you do not have a skill, you will not achieve a job. However, in so far as international employment in the EU is concerned, of course the desire to recruit English-speakers gives UK applicants a huge advantage in skilled fields.
    It's also one of the reasons why there is so much short-term "migration" to the UK. A year spent working in an English-speaking country is a great asset to any EU professional's CV.
  • Options
    REMAIN are using Martin Lewis on the leaflet that is being posted to every postal voter. This is after he objected.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3601228/Consumer-champion-Martin-Lewis-attacks-pro-EU-campaign-featured-quote-picture-leaflet-without-permission.html
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    REMAIN are using Martin Lewis on the leaflet that is being posted to every postal voter. This is after he objected.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3601228/Consumer-champion-Martin-Lewis-attacks-pro-EU-campaign-featured-quote-picture-leaflet-without-permission.html

    I have seen them use him in social media adverts as well.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    I agree but find that most people have trousers that are too long not too short, I have seen chaps that have paid a lot of cash for a nice suit but the trousers end with a concertina effect at the bottom end, and look awful.

    My biggest beef is with shoes. The number of men in expensive, if ill-fitting, suits flashy shirts and silk ties but with shoes that have never been polished astonishes me. When I was in business the feet were the first place I looked when I met someone new. Very few people with dirty shoes got a job or a contract from me. It is all about attention to detail.
    In court tomorrow. Polished shoes tonight. You are not the only one that notices.
    I notice too, it's why I'm so fussy, choosy, and particular when it comes to buying the right footwear for myself.
    Can't remember the last time I paid less than £300 for a pair of shoes.

    Most I've paid for shoes is £500. I did wince at that, but they are luvverly jubbles.

    DON'T SKIMP ON SHOES
    Ordinarily I'm with you, mainly due to gout. But a few weeks ago I bought a pair for £9.99 in Aldis, tried them on in the aisle, as you say, luvverly jubbly.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    I agree but find that most people have trousers that are too long not too short, I have seen chaps that have paid a lot of cash for a nice suit but the trousers end with a concertina effect at the bottom end, and look awful.

    My biggest beef is with shoes. The number of men in expensive, if ill-fitting, suits flashy shirts and silk ties but with shoes that have never been polished astonishes me. When I was in business the feet were the first place I looked when I met someone new. Very few people with dirty shoes got a job or a contract from me. It is all about attention to detail.
    In court tomorrow. Polished shoes tonight. You are not the only one that notices.
    I notice too, it's why I'm so fussy, choosy, and particular when it comes to buying the right footwear for myself.
    Can't remember the last time I paid less than £300 for a pair of shoes.

    Most I've paid for shoes is £500. I did wince at that, but they are luvverly jubbles.

    DON'T SKIMP ON SHOES
    Ordinarily I'm with you, mainly due to gout. But a few weeks ago I bought a pair for £9.99 in Aldis, tried them on in the aisle, as you say, luvverly jubbly.

    I'm trying not to BARF and then FAINT at the concept of shoes from Aldi. Costing £9.99

    *barfs*

    *faints*
    Don't get me wrong, if I was fortunate enough to be dining with @cyclefree or @plato my Church's would be on parade, but I'm a minimalist.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    Public Notice...ladies thinking of enjoying a night out in Taunton. A certain Mr C. Gayle has landed from the IPL, quickly got out and I am sure will be happy for the company.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
    £6.50? Was £5 back in my day! Do they still let you out of Wales for free?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Quinnipiac national general election

    Clinton 45 Trump 41

    Sanders 48 Trump 39
    https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us06012016_Ugb28vf.pdf

    Georgia PPP
    Trump 49 Clinton 40

    Trump 48 Sanders 40
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_GA_60116.pdf

    Michigan Detroit News
    Clinton 43 Trump 39

    Sanders 52 Trump 33
    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/31/poll-clinton-sanders-lead-trump-michigan-match-ups/85223072/
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    edited June 2016



    France is Foreign, Germany is Foreign.

    Austrailia is not, US is not, Ireland is not South Africa is not and to some extent even India is not.

    In all those places I can land on a plane and hit the ground fully, communicate freely, understand the rules which are basically identical, even understand the subtle nuances and in all but one of those cases jump in a car and not find myself on the wrong side of tbe road.

    At times I will forget that I am not in the UK.

    Europe is different, interesting but very different.

    Obviously language is a big thing, but I know loads of people who have gone for a job somewhere on the Continent and simply picked it up - and it's not just middle-class people or recent either (cf. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet). A lot of young people feel it's part of the fun, and regret the prospect of it becoming harder. Going to work in Australia etc. is a big, expensive project even if one can get a visa, or work illegally as many do. I have a female relative who cheerfully backpacked round the world on her own in her 20s, picking fruit for a living. I asked her if she'd applied for work permits everywhere and she looked at me as though I'd just arrived from Mars.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited June 2016
    Tasers & ties:

    On a tedious personal pedal note, generally I often get rid of things I haven't used for a long time. So most of my ties went long ago, except for a couple of 1970s narrow leather ones that I used to wear with my Carnaby St skin-tight woollen slightly flared trousers. Actually I kept those too, and I can still wear 'em.
    heh.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2

    @camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. Flop
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    You don't need to watch and it seems perfectly clear what you are about to watch if you press the titty. I wonder how many others are offended. I'm not even though you've enabled me to see something that offends you so that it might offend me.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
    £6.50? Was £5 back in my day! Do they still let you out of Wales for free?
    Yes. Trick is to go out on M4 and if at all possible arrange the day so you come back on the A449 via Ross and avoid all tolls. Due to be cut anyway ( in half?) in a couple of years.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016

    You don't need to watch and it seems perfectly clear what you are about to watch if you press the titty. I wonder how many others are offended. I'm not even though you've enabled me to see something that offends you so that it might offend me.
    I didn't say anything about being offended. I just queried if we NEED to see this. It was a general musing type question, not outrage.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    Even when dining alone, I always wear pukka shoes. Anything else seems not right.

    If and when I am poor again, my addiction to expensive English men's shoes will be oh-so difficult to kick. And they will have to prise my Cheaney's oxblood brogues from my cold, impoverished hands.

    As a pauper I was raised to believe if you buy cheap you buy twice, I have a pair of suede brogues that are nearly 20 years old, a bit like Trigger's broom.

    I only wear the Aldis shoes to debate with Meeks, its all that's needed.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    John_N4 said:

    The results of ICM's recent poll (data collected 27-29 May) were

    telephone - remain 42%, leave 45%, don't know, won't say or won't vote 15%
    online - remain 44% leave 47%, don't know, won't say or won't vote 9%

    or of those who expressed a preference

    both methods - remain 48%, leave 52%

    So the difference here is in the proportion of DK/WS/WV: 15% on the telephone, 9% online.

    And that looks to be the reason for the difference between phone and online results: shy Leavers on the phone. Is this supported by a qualitative consideration? Yes. Immigration is the main issue. Most people want to reduce it. And people have been told for decades that it's dirty to want to reduce it.



    Except that the figures suggest there are an equal number of shy remainers. To what do you attribute that?

    Personally I think we're over-analysing small differences.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    I remember that episode. I had a fairly good idea how he did it from the get go.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2

    @camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. Flop
    10 minutes in and you have had your two scenes!
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    Sorry, are the Daily Mash and Daily Mail two different papers?
    One makes up fictional stories from whole cloth to satisfy its readership...
    It is increasingly difficult to tell sometimes.

    A good office lunchtime game is to read a headline out and get people to guess if it is Mail or Mash
    The Guardian is the same, on the opposite side. It is very difficult sometimes to work out whether a Guardian headline is real, or one of those spoof Guardian headlines from Guardian parodists.

    Couple of favourites:

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/09/is-it-ok-scientists-weep-over-climate-change

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/04/barbecue-american-tradition-enslaved-africans-native-americans

    Possible summit attained here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/08/dread-daughter-poos-smaller-girl-conform


    All of these are real. More real ones here:

    http://somuchguardian.tumblr.com/
    I'm struggling to see why you think the first of these would be a parody. Doesn't it make sense that scientists who are witnessing the destruction of our environment at first hand would worry that allowing themselves to be seen to express their horror emotionally might be interpreted as unprofessionalism?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2

    @camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. Flop
    10 minutes in and you have had your two scenes!
    Not watching, sounds like plenty of tits, but are there any dragons? ;-)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    You don't need to watch and it seems perfectly clear what you are about to watch if you press the titty. I wonder how many others are offended. I'm not even though you've enabled me to see something that offends you so that it might offend me.
    I didn't say anything about being offended. I just queried if we NEED to see this. It was a general musing type question, not outrage.
    Telegraph are turning rapidly into the Mail unfortunately. Not so long ago a graphic court description of an attempted murder didn't need to be accompanied by the CCTV images.
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
    £6.50? Was £5 back in my day! Do they still let you out of Wales for free?
    Yes. The cars are normally travelling too fast...
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
    £6.50? Was £5 back in my day! Do they still let you out of Wales for free?
    Yes. The cars are normally travelling too fast...
    Cheeky..
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @OxfordUnion: Do you still stand by your comments that Hitler was supporting Zionism?

    .@ken4london: What historian doesn't?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2

    @camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. Flop
    10 minutes in and you have had your two scenes!
    Not watching, sounds like plenty of tits, but are there any dragons? ;-)
    You need to watch Banshee or Strike Back. Either series has plenty of sex and nudity, some full frontal.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Scott_P said:

    @OxfordUnion: Do you still stand by your comments that Hitler was supporting Zionism?

    .@ken4london: What historian doesn't?

    Oh god...they let him out and after dark to boot....meaning he has had plenty of time to quench his thirst.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited June 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    I remember that episode. I had a fairly good idea how he did it from the get go.
    Every amateur gambler should watch it, it shows them how the professionals operate!
    This is the man banned from every casino in the UK.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,198
    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    How many takes did he do?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL

    Well, obviously.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,258
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL

    Leave will just dismiss it as project fear but if this gets headlines and more EU Countries endorse Spain and the Dutch's position in the coming days it could have an influence
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2016
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    How many takes did he do?
    9hrs worth...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    How many takes did he do?
    One. But you're on the right lines.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    This is incredible.

    I was just on the phone arranging lunch next week with a friend.

    He's about 40.

    Ten years ago he was a fulltime heroin addict in a small Welsh town. Eight years ago he was in prison, serving time for manslaughter. Five years ago, when he got out, he was scraping a living as a plumber.

    On the phone he told me he would probably come to London for lunch, driven by his chauffeur, as he is bored of driving his new supercars (he has three). The last time he was in town was for the wedding of his new best friend, a famous billionaire.

    The creative company he runs, and which is entirely his own creation, began life three years ago.

    Quite incredibly inspiring. His is the most amazing life journey I have ever witnessed, personally.

    So come on, which pb poster is he?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    SeanT said:

    This is incredible.

    I was just on the phone arranging lunch next week with a friend.

    He's about 40.

    Ten years ago he was a fulltime heroin addict in a small Welsh town. Eight years ago he was in prison, serving time for manslaughter. Five years ago, when he got out, he was scraping a living as a plumber.

    On the phone he told me he would probably come to London for lunch, driven by his chauffeur, as he is bored of driving his new supercars (he has three). The last time he was in town was for the wedding of his new best friend, a famous billionaire.

    The creative company he runs, and which is entirely his own creation, began life three years ago.

    Quite incredibly inspiring. His is the most amazing life journey I have ever witnessed, personally.

    Have you ever considered doing some sort of a "conversion with.." type show?
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    welshowl said:

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Many British nationals seem to have little difficulty living and working in First World countries outside the EU. But of course, they have no unqualified right to live and work there. They are subject to immigration controls and that is right.

    I certainly see no reason why I should have an unqualified right to live and work in other countries and vice versa.
    Stop thinking of the EU as 'other countries'. It is a federation whose citizens, including Brits, should consider such privileges as a birthright.
    Yes, I live in the Kingdom of Mercia, but don't mind people from Wessex living here.
    Yes but you dug a bloody dike to keep me out.
    You are Owain Glyndwr and I claim my £5.
    Won't be enough to get you over the Severn Crossing mind. We charge £6.50.
    £6.50? Was £5 back in my day! Do they still let you out of Wales for free?
    Yes. The cars are normally travelling too fast...
    Cheeky..
    :) Sorry...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,198

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    How many takes did he do?
    9hrs worth...
    Wow. That's patience.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    20st ISIS executioner dubbed The Bulldozer is 'captured' by the Syrian army and dumped half-naked in the back of a truck

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3620037/Flattened-Terrifying-20st-ISIS-executioner-dubbed-Bulldozer-captured-Syrian-army-dumped-half-naked-truck.html

    Do you think they will make him listen to Bollywood music?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Catching up on three threads of Monty Hall puzzles and coin toss games reminds me of this:

    A gambler relys on information. The video is completely genuine, despite Mr Brown's reputation for trickery, but think about what you don't know to work out how he did it.
    https://youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    How many takes did he do?
    9hrs worth...
    Wow. That's patience.
    Could be worse, he could be doing a yoghurt advert for Roger ;-)
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    @OxfordUnion: Do you still stand by your comments that Hitler was supporting Zionism?

    .@ken4london: What historian doesn't?

    I'm struggling to understand how he doesn't understand that sharing a limited common purpose (getting Jews out of say Germany, and in the case of Zionists to the Palestinian mandate) does not make support for a common cause.

    We supported the Soviet Union during most of WW2, doesn't mean we supported communism.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,258
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL

    Well, obviously.
    When you think about it Brexit is a very real danger to the EU's free movement principle and they are going to become very strident in defending it. I expect this could become a very big issue over the next three weeks with neither side taking prisoners
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL

    The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,361
    SeanT said:

    This is incredible.

    I was just on the phone arranging lunch next week with a friend.

    He's about 40.

    Ten years ago he was a fulltime heroin addict in a small Welsh town. Eight years ago he was in prison, serving time for manslaughter. Five years ago, when he got out, he was scraping a living as a plumber.

    On the phone he told me he would probably come to London for lunch, driven by his chauffeur, as he is bored of driving his new supercars (he has three). The last time he was in town was for the wedding of his new best friend, a famous billionaire.

    The creative company he runs, and which is entirely his own creation, began life three years ago.

    Quite incredibly inspiring. His is the most amazing life journey I have ever witnessed, personally.

    Yes, but what about the important stuff. Leave or Remain?
  • Options
    BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL

    Why is that a surprise. They are accepting an end to free movement. It is expected to be reciprocal.

    So you can go on holiday to Paris, no problem but can't go to work there without permission.
This discussion has been closed.