The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europe
Leisure movement? I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of people
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Cameron and co in their hubris believed that they could sell anything to the British people, including continued membership of the EU. But as the wonderful gentleman from the leave campaign on Channel 4 news tonight said, "there is no status quo in this election, its either more Brussels and more EU or get out" - I thought that was a great line and I'd go for the latter any week for every week in the next 20 years.
As for a failure in superstate power, well we've been here enough times before haven't we - the collapse of Communism, the collapse of Nazism / Fascism, the collapse of Rome and every empire in history that hasn't been able to stand the test of time. If the people don't want it, the authorities that be can try to resist it, but eventually they'll run out of capital and credibility - the EU is no different in this regard and has completely lost sight of serving the people under its jurisdiction. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that its days are numbered.....and not before time.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
I don't regard it as particularly exceptionable to note that if Britain chooses to limit access of EU member states' citizens to its shores that EU states might choose to review the terms of access of British citizens to their own country. We can expect reciprocal arrangements to be put in place, regardless of narrow economic arguments. After all, narrow economic arguments don't seem to interest Leavers very much.
What is the advantage to REMAIN in saying it? It comes across as a threat. A good move for LEAVE. BBC highlighting it in radio news bulletins I heard during the day whilst between meetings.
It sounded to me like an obvious response by other EU countries to the idea that freedom of movement could be unilaterally rescinded cost-free without consequences.
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europe
Leisure movement? I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of people
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?
Can't see any threats myself - just no longer doing us any favours.
You would be eager to see Britain punished if we had the nerve to vote for Brexit.
Actually I think UKIP and Farage always pitched it right when they spoke of Brexit as an 'amicable divorce' - we bear you no grudges but the Project isn't for us and we want to resolve matters to our shared advantage. Ironically it's been the Leave Tories who've been ratcheting things up to a destructive level - talk of Hitler, banning European immigrants, gloating about the resulting collapse of the whole EU. I don't know if it's some kind of esoteric macho Tory thing, but it doesn't seem to be aimed at making Brexit as smooth and as painless as possible.
The referendum is won. Let's call it a night. Just get everything in crates. REMAIN has won. JULIE DELPY has SPOKEN
At the risk of looking silly, who is Julie Delpy?
Ethan Hawke's partner. They have two girls. Every nine years they release their home movies to some acclaim. Some people think they're just acting but I know different, so there...
More threats from foreign leaders and Dave stands by and smiles,British people don't like threats.
This is only heading one way if we remain - Superstate.
I don't see any threats, just statements of the bleedin' obvious. If we don't allow them freedom of movement to the UK, then there's no reason to expect them to allow us freedom of movement to the EU. Note: For avoidance of doubt, this refers to permanent settlement, not business and leisure trips!
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
Why should they accept Brexit gratefully - their free movement is under threat and expect them to be ruthless
Lets be optimistic - perhaps they may think things through, Free movement is excellent when it is between countries which are broadly similar. Introduce a large group of countries with far lower per capita incomes and it becomes potentially explosive. The EU elite does not seem to grasp this at all.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I think there'll be an absolute Götterdämmerung of threats over the next three weeks.
Absolutely, and the lack of any remotely positive message from the remain campaign says everything you need to know about them. People are losing CONFIDENCE in government.......and threat piled upon threat is only helping this process, so little do they know. I'd like the remain campaign and their apologists to keep going down the same track, they're actively aiding the leave campaign by so doing so!
"After a stronger start, the Remain campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
Why is Sky referring to those who wish to leave as "Brexiteers"? If they do this then in the interests of balance they should use the term "Remaniacs" for those that wish to stay
So the above should actually be written as......
"After a stronger start, the Remainiacs campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
Why should they accept Brexit gratefully - their free movement is under threat and expect them to be ruthless
Ruthless and shoot themselves in the foot killing their holiday trade?
They could do I suppose. Be daft if they did but still we will see.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Cameron and co in their hubris believed that they could sell anything to the British people, including continued membership of the EU. ...
As for a failure in superstate power, well we've been here enough times before haven't we - the collapse of Communism, the collapse of Nazism / Fascism, the collapse of Rome and every empire in history that hasn't been able to stand the test of time. If the people don't want it, the authorities that be can try to resist it, but eventually they'll run out of capital and credibility - the EU is no different in this regard and has completely lost sight of serving the people under its jurisdiction. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that its days are numbered.....and not before time.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
I don't think we joined the EU - considering it didn't exist for more than 20 years after we joined The Common Market. - So someone here is being naive or disingenuous - and it ain't me!
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europe
Leisure movement? I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of people
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?
Just found out from a friend of mine that she is going to be in the audience for Question Time tomorrow. I'd say she's more committed to the remain cause than me.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2
@camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. Flop
10 minutes in and you have had your two scenes!
Monsieur certainly played for both sides. He had 11 children, as well as numerous boyfriends, and would turn up on the battlefield beribboned and made up - but he fought like a lion.
I imagine that the show makes everyone look much cleaner, and more attractive, than was actually the case.
Famously Versailles was built, originally, without toilets.
So you'd have all these fabulously rich, coiffured, periwigged French counts and countesses urgently taking a crap or a pee in any old corner, right behind the Flemish tapestries.
Which is extraordinary. Windsor Castle had some privies in the 1360s. Henry VIII built the Great House of Easement at Hampton Court in the 1530's. Even worse, Versailles was full of pets that weren't house-trained. Madame de Maintenon even kept pet mice that roamed at will.
The White Tower had garderobes.
I must say, I did like the double-decker toilets at Hampton Court.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Benjamin Franklin, 11 Nov. 1755.
The principles America declared Independence upon are very pertinent and what we should learn from."No taxation without representation"
The people in america that made the Boston Tea Party protest, objected to the Tea Act because they believed that it violated their rights as Englishmen to "No taxation without representation," that is, to be taxed only by their own elected representatives and not by a British parliament in which they were not represented. We now have tax rules tabled by an unelected Commission and then voted on in which we have a timy minority of the votes. Effectively no representation in many aspects of law.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
What are UKIP do to with this? They have one effing MP....
Just found out from a friend of mine that she is going to be in the audience for Question Time tomorrow. I'd say she's more committed to the remain cause than me.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it? Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
Good comparisons on newsnight between EU ref and Indyref. Basically suggesting that project fear is not working here because people are not scared of the UK being independent.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europe
Presumably our relationship with the EU ....
Again - with Southern Europe largely dependent on the UK spending dosh on holidays, I am pretty sure there won't be many if any restrictions.
Yes, as I said, I wouldn't expect holidays to be a problem (apart from a little more hassle with insurance due the the lack of an E111). This isn't what is meant by "freedom of movement" though. FoM implies the right to settle, i.e. live, work, study, retire, etc., not just take short trips for business or leisure. That's what's in doubt.
Forget about the EHIC (E111 is Sooo 1990s - it ended in 2005) And many insurers rate countries outside the EU but in Europe exactly the same as those in the EU. (Trust me on this - I am a travel insurance broker).
(Anyone trusting in the EHIC is naïve at best, stupid at worst)
Oh - and there ARE countries not in the EU but who are members of the Erasmus scheme.
Sorry, I meant EHIC of course - mind just slipped a decade.
Why is it wrong to trust the EHIC? Personally, I've always regarded travel insurance as a complete waste of money - virtually a scam - when travelling to the EU and have never bought any. Mind you, I suppose there may be certain circumstances in which it might be worthwhile buying.
"Steve Rowland of Rowland Brothers said: “It might be possible to pay as much as £7,000 to bring someone back from Spain, but we would hope to do it for under £3,500.”
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it? Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...
Surely an island is surrounded by a reflective surface - the sea?
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
I don't regard it as particularly exceptionable to note that if Britain chooses to limit access of EU member states' citizens to its shores that EU states might choose to review the terms of access of British citizens to their own country. We can expect reciprocal arrangements to be put in place, regardless of narrow economic arguments. After all, narrow economic arguments don't seem to interest Leavers very much.
What is the advantage to REMAIN in saying it? It comes across as a threat. A good move for LEAVE. BBC highlighting it in radio news bulletins I heard during the day whilst between meetings.
It sounded to me like an obvious response by other EU countries to the idea that freedom of movement could be unilaterally rescinded cost-free without consequences.
Not how it was couched in the broadcasts that I heard. "Dutch PM's warning over Brexit 'fairer immigration' claim"
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocn. s we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
Dear fucking hell Jesus Christ God in heaven.
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?
You lot really are not the best example of a well-thought through argument.
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
Yeah yeah. We know you are so thick you don't even understand what the terms mean. Crawl back under your rock and let the rest of us get on with actually achieving something meaningful.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
P.S. - Yes, I missed out the word single before market. But the point about single market for services not existing remains....
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
All compromises are (from your own point of view) sub-optimal by definition. You could decide never to compromise with anyone, but the results of doing that would be... sub-optimal. In reality leaving the EU would involve a bunch of different negotiations resulting in different compromises.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that dramatic.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starte EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
Yeah yeah. We know you are so thick you don't even understand what the terms mean. Crawl back under your rock and let the rest of us get on with actually achieving something meaningful.
What. A. Moron.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
Back to abuse I see Fuck off then
The most coherent thing you have posted all evening.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.
Not much of a single market if it is not complete...
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that draaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's a simple example to get the message across.
It's the only effing example.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.
Not much of a single market if it is not complete...
The move toward a single market in services (what some describe as red tape and Brussels diktats) will halt or reverse. I suspect the EU states will be happy to have a single market in manufactures if they can block our services.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that draaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's a simple example to get the message across.
It's the only effing example.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.
Well that's not true either.
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.
Quite right, Mr. Meeks, but the question has to be why, after all these years, is the market not complete? Could it be that Germany and France don't want it?
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not as just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!
Shouldn't you want every country to optimise its well-being which, inevitably, will involve compromise? Shouldn't everyone? I do.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.
24 of the 27 EU nations make a surplus from trading with us.
They have a net 2m jobs that we could take back off them by switching to domestic production instead of imports
That would be more expensive from our point of view. If we could produce domestically for the same price...we'd already be doing it. So they lose jobs and we lose money...and this is why trade wars are such a bad idea.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocn. .......
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?
Why would we want anyone to bend to our will? There are a lot of non-EU countries who want to sell us products at a cheaper rate without the EU taxes that are levied and the other regulatory burdens placed on them. Food from the developing world is one example where we could buy more from them, pay less yet they would receive more £ from us. A win win. Of ocurse that would reduce the £61bn+ surplus that we spend with the EU....
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?
OK.
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
Very simple, Came.
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
We joined the EEC, not as just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!
Shouldn't you want every country to optimise its well-being which, inevitably, will involve compromise? Shouldn't everyone? I do.
I think you need a cold compress and a darkened room
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
Its not the only example. There have been dozens. It just happens to be one that resonates with the public and so is being highlighted. But don't let simple things like facts get in the way of your wild fantasies.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.
I think I agree with you. I shall light a candle.
As a Remainiac be sure to read the relevant EU directives and regulations on the matter.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
All compromises are (from your own point of view) sub-optimal by definition. You could decide never to compromise with anyone, but the results of doing that would be... sub-optimal. In reality leaving the EU would involve a bunch of different negotiations resulting in different compromises.
I just want a Europe of free trading nation states in a low tax environment with the emphasis on a highly skilled workforce - that's the optimal arrangement that fits in with the reality of different languages and cultures amongst European nation states. The EU is the complete antithesis of the above.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
Its not the only example. There have been dozens. It just happens to be one that resonates with the public and so is being highlighted. But don't let simple things like facts get in the way of your wild fantasies.
Dozens provided on here and ignored by TOPPING as it does not suit their Eurofanatic agenda.
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
Fuck them indeed.
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
It is repulsively undemocn. .......
LEAVE
Does freedom mean:
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.
Moron. Sorry, but if you be
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?
Why would we want anyone to bend to our will? There are a lot of non-EU countries who want to sell us products at a cheaper rate without the EU taxes that are levied and the other regulatory burdens placed on them. Food from the developing world is one example where we could buy more from them, pay less yet they would receive more £ from us. A win win. Of ocurse that would reduce the £61bn+ surplus that we spend with the EU....
The EU is trying to lower tariffs (including NTBs) on a large number of goods and services. That is its whole point. On the whole it has been successful.
If you think that there is a parallel market for nearly half our exports, then all I can say is that a) there might be; but b) why burn down the edifice we have which is that home for our exports to start again with all the uncertainties that entails?
It simply makes no sense.
Anyway, on that note, I am going to bed.
All you Leavers try to contain yourselves. I know living your lives as slaves to the EU superstate can't be easy, but fear not, freedom is at hand.
You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
I really don't think it's that draaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply. ...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's the only effing example.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
Unambiguous? Sorry, that really isn't good enough. Even supporters of federalism should be able to acknowledge that the EU's effect on the fishing industry, food prices, many of our Commonwealth trading relationships and wages for the poorest paid has hardly been positive.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.
The 'campaign grid' that Boris and Gove seem to have drawn up for the purdah period has been really good so far. I would hazard a guess that they brainstormed 28 things for the 4 week period to set the agenda - the first 4 or 5 have been good including the VAT on fuel line ...... the leave campaign has really got its act together since last Friday, and let Smokin' Joe Frazier burn himself out prior to the purdah period, only to sting like a bee once the purdah period started - in a word masterly.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it? Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...
Surely an island is surrounded by a reflective surface - the sea?
Well, I've not mentioned an island, although many formulations of the puzzle do, although they are at pains to stress there are no mirrors or anything that could perform the same function.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.
Richard someone of as small an intellect as you is really not going to prevent me from going to bed, especially when, entertaining as you are in your imbecility, you continue to make fatuous, inane, repetitive, insignificant arguments that small children, if they could tolerate your own childishness, could refute in an instant.
I'm not sure what you think of yourself when you look in the mirror each morning, but it can't be easy, so bon chance and bon nuit.
Comments
Anyway sleep calls.
Nos da i chi gyd.
- Benjamin Franklin, 11 Nov. 1755.
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
Simple, eh?
"After a stronger start, the Remain campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
Why is Sky referring to those who wish to leave as "Brexiteers"? If they do this then in the interests of balance they should use the term "Remaniacs" for those that wish to stay
So the above should actually be written as......
"After a stronger start, the Remainiacs campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
Only saying.......
They could do I suppose. Be daft if they did but still we will see.
And now you're just being silly.
I must say, I did like the double-decker toilets at Hampton Court.
The people in america that made the Boston Tea Party protest, objected to the Tea Act because they believed that it violated their rights as Englishmen to "No taxation without representation," that is, to be taxed only by their own elected representatives and not by a British parliament in which they were not represented. We now have tax rules tabled by an unelected Commission and then voted on in which we have a timy minority of the votes. Effectively no representation in many aspects of law.
Stop with the threats, whether economic or implied restrictions from foreign leaders.
Try and give us a reason to vote to stay.
Oh, wait.....
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it?
Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...
This might just happen!
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
"Steve Rowland of Rowland Brothers said: “It might be possible to pay as much as £7,000 to bring someone back from Spain, but we would hope to do it for under £3,500.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/travel/10895307/Travel-insurance-policies-and-the-17000-cost-of-dying-abroad.html
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
Waking Life and Three Colours: White.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?
You lot really are not the best example of a well-thought through argument.
No dodgy hand with pencil in the instructions on my ballot paper
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
P.S. - Yes, I missed out the word single before market. But the point about single market for services not existing remains....
Fuck off then
They have a net 2m jobs that we could take back off them by switching to domestic production instead of imports
It's a simple example to get the message across.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
Of ocurse that would reduce the £61bn+ surplus that we spend with the EU....
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.
If you think that there is a parallel market for nearly half our exports, then all I can say is that a) there might be; but b) why burn down the edifice we have which is that home for our exports to start again with all the uncertainties that entails?
It simply makes no sense.
Anyway, on that note, I am going to bed.
All you Leavers try to contain yourselves. I know living your lives as slaves to the EU superstate can't be easy, but fear not, freedom is at hand.
It's a real brain-hurter of a puzzle!
I'm not sure what you think of yourself when you look in the mirror each morning, but it can't be easy, so bon chance and bon nuit.
We actually beat a team on penalties (Spain, in the quarter-final).
No one can be that much of a brainwashed fanatic without doing so?