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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remain appear to be winning the ground game but looks like

SystemSystem Posts: 12,267
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remain appear to be winning the ground game but looks like Leave are winning the twitter war

Matthew Goodwin has done some analysis and finds “The EU Referendum Events Project at the Universities of Kent and Nottingham, which is mapping campaign events in real time, shows Remain is far more active than Leave, the bulk of the activity on both sides is concentrated on London, and Brexit backers have yet to target northern England, which should be fertile ground for Eurosc…

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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2016
    First, like Remain!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Twitter's just a noisebox.

    However, number of events matters less than persuasive quality and whether you're getting an in-person echo chamber of diehard supporters or getting floating voters who may be swayed.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Twitter's just a noisebox.

    However, number of events matters less than persuasive quality and whether you're getting an in-person echo chamber of diehard supporters or getting floating voters who may be swayed.

    I have been to 1 Remain and one Leave event. Both were preaching to the converted, and I think twitter does too. Overall the whole referendum seems only to appeal to a few enthusiasts.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    Labour also had the better ground game last year....

    And how many of the Remain events are the same people posing as different people as we saw in Kent and Sussex last week?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    edited June 2016
    SeanT said:

    Bit of a silly analysis, TSE (though I appreciate you have to generate headers, not always an easy thing).

    For a start, it probably means nothing at all. LEAVE is just the more exciting choice so is bound to generate more social media activity. End of.

    If there is any inference to be drawn, it's that a vaguely leftwing medium (which Twitter is) is intriguingly and surprisingly attracted to LEAVE, so that might imply more leftwing support for LEAVE than is presupposed... But even that is a stretch.


    I did say both metrics wouldn't be much use.

    I had planned a major thread for this evening but had to put a filler piece instead until I get the latest TV show from Keiran (I was expecting it tomorrow but we're getting it tonight now)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    I can't detect any discernible pattern in that.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2016
    The EU Referendum Events Project at the Universities of Kent and Nottingham, which is mapping campaign events in real time, shows Remain is far more active than Leave, the bulk of the activity on both sides is concentrated on London...
    The question for Remain though is just how effective preaching to the converted is.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    The EU Referendum Events Project at the Universities of Kent and Nottingham, which is mapping campaign events in real time, shows Remain is far more active than Leave, the bulk of the activity on both sides is concentrated on London...
    The question for Remain though is just how effective preaching to the converted is.


    It kind of seems odd. That's not where most of the electorate are after all. Did Lenin say you have to start off by seizing the means of communication.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    So anyhoooo about the monty Hall problem..... ;-)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Sorry but garbage in = garbage out. In Bromley, Remain had an 'event' for which 2 people attended, vs 5 for leave. Are they equivalent?

    None of my politically active Remain friends (predominantly lefties) have got involved with 'their' campaign. All the Leavers have.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see Nigel Farage is in Leeds today.

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/738050296623050753
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. T, the Remain child is the creepier, by a mile. Is that good for Leave or Remain?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,247
    It's interesting that Dundee or Yes City as we were somewhat embarrassingly tagged has yet to have any such events despite having 2 Universities.

    It does rather accord with my perception that the SNP are not exactly busting a gut over this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    The SNP cybernats were also far more active than Better Together backers on Twitter in the referendum there too
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    @DavidL FPT.

    Indeed. Touche sir :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,261
    It's been an open secret for some time that the Leave ground campaign is poor.

    I *am* Vote Leave for the 2,000+ homes and 5,000 residents where I live.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP cybernats were also far more active than Better Together backers on Twitter in the referendum there too

    No surprises:

    WHAT DO WE WANT?: EU Directive 205GH/5624/EC3013/P concerning Kettles.
    WHEN DO WE WANT IT?: Er...
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    DavidL said:

    It's interesting that Dundee or Yes City as we were somewhat embarrassingly tagged has yet to have any such events despite having 2 Universities.

    It does rather accord with my perception that the SNP are not exactly busting a gut over this.

    The cult of Nicola is happy to support the Child Nationalisation Act, but the leadership know enough of their supporters back Leave not to shout Remain from the rooftops.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Labour won the twitte war in 2015 we know how that worked out........

    Seriously though it's about the quality of the events not the number.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    So anyhoooo about the monty Hall problem..... ;-)

    If Tim "Monty" Montgomerie opens one door to reveal a Gove, should you switch?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    SeanT said:

    Bit of a silly analysis, TSE (though I appreciate you have to generate headers, not always an easy thing).

    For a start, it probably means nothing at all. LEAVE is just the more exciting choice so is bound to generate more social media activity. End of.

    If there is any inference to be drawn, it's that a vaguely leftwing medium (which Twitter is) is intriguingly and surprisingly attracted to LEAVE, so that might imply more leftwing support for LEAVE than is presupposed... But even that is a stretch.


    The ideal tweeter would be a Labour, SNP or UKIP voter angry at life and the establishment in general. A conservative, pro European, Unionist by contrast would probably not be seen dead on Twitter unless his name was Lord Deben or Nicholas Soames!
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    It's been an open secret for some time that the Leave ground campaign is poor.

    I *am* Vote Leave for the 2,000+ homes and 5,000 residents where I live.

    They couldn't ask for better :)

    I know we haven't been perfect, but does Remain even exist in your town?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited June 2016
    Jobabob said:

    So anyhoooo about the monty Hall problem..... ;-)

    If Tim "Monty" Montgomerie opens one door to reveal a Gove, should you switch?
    ScottP will tell us you have a 50:50 chance of getting a Boris or Farage regardless...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,247
    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    It's interesting that Dundee or Yes City as we were somewhat embarrassingly tagged has yet to have any such events despite having 2 Universities.

    It does rather accord with my perception that the SNP are not exactly busting a gut over this.

    The cult of Nicola is happy to support the Child Nationalisation Act, but the leadership know enough of their supporters back Leave not to shout Remain from the rooftops.
    It just gets worse and worse: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36425310
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, the Remain child is the creepier, by a mile. Is that good for Leave or Remain?

    My theory is that the LEAVE campaign had this brilliant idea first: let's get a small girl to grimace eerily but pointlessly, just on the right of the frame, during a REMAIN press conference, but make sure she's so far away nobody really notices

    But now REMAIN has retaliated in kind, and got a girl to do the same to LEAVE, again in an eerie but pointless way that nobody really notices and makes no sense.

    This could escalate.

    Had wondered if it was your next book cover.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    So anyhoooo about the monty Hall problem..... ;-)

    If Tim "Monty" Montgomerie opens one door to reveal a Gove, should you switch?
    ScottP will tell us your have a 50:50 chance of getting a Boris or Farage regardless...
    Those odds are way too short for my liking!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. T, one of them should hire the girl from the first scene in the first episode of Game of Thrones.

    She looks like a mannequin she's so good at being still, but it's actually a real (and creepy as hell) actress.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,247
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    edited June 2016
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Topping, sartorial elegance supports Leave.

    Scruffy ragamuffins and unkempt tatterdemalions support Remain? :p
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,261
    edited June 2016
    RoyalBlue said:

    It's been an open secret for some time that the Leave ground campaign is poor.

    I *am* Vote Leave for the 2,000+ homes and 5,000 residents where I live.

    They couldn't ask for better :)

    I know we haven't been perfect, but does Remain even exist in your town?
    Thanks. No, but I seem to attract Remainers. I've had two very cross Remainers either harangue me or follow me down the street to hand back a leaflet whilst out campaigning.

    I don't know if this means anything, but quite a few Union Jacks and St. George's Cross flags have been going up around the village over the last week or two.

    I counted at least nine on my drive home from the station tonight.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    edited June 2016

    Mr. Topping, sartorial elegance supports Leave.

    Scruffy ragamuffins and unkempt tatterdemalions support Remain? :p

    I'm the King of sartorial elegance and I'm backing Remain.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Royale, do you wear a tie?

    If not, try putting one on. It may be the next best thing to Remain-repellent batspray.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @TSE I'm wearing a thin tie today. I am utterly unrepentant.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,152
    edited June 2016

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Saw a discarded (or lost) school tie the other day. The front part looked normal but it was attached to a circle of wide elastic. Is that how 'ties' are, these days?

    (edited to add: evening, everybody)
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    Leave have a strong ground game in Luton and Dunstable and surrounding villages.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    LucyJones said:



    Looks like it isn't Reckless who is the real TPD in Rochester!

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/738043758793613314

    Not sure anyone should be surprised about this. Just another dishonest politician who will say and do anything to get elected. Hopefully another one destined for the scrapheap of history.
    Her rival for the nomination, Anna Firth, has been actively campaigning for Brexit in Sevenoaks and beyond.
    What is perturbing here is whether she took votes from eurosceptic voters to beat Anna Firth in the closely fought primary only to turncoat now. "Eurosceptic" neighbouring MP for Chatham and Aylesford Tracey Crouch now a gov't minister is yet to declare. Will she also put her career above her principles?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Agreed - and even worse, the 'fat knot' tie-wearer.

    Ties should be tight with a small knot.

    Anecdote alert: last week someone asked me if I was wearing a Buller tie. Luckily, I already knew it was similar...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Eagles, you're closer to being the Queen of Bithynia.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503
    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    AnneJGP said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Saw a discarded (or lost) school tie the other day. The front part looked normal but it was attached to a circle of wide elastic. Is that how 'ties' are, these days?

    (edited to add: evening, everybody)
    Well when I was still running my business we had company ties, and special elasticated drivers ties, I always insisted the drivers wore a tie on customers premises, the elasticated were quick to put on, and a bit safer especially as we worked on industrial sites.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    From Twitter, reported shooting at UCLA (via the CNN official Twitter account).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    Daniel Craig's James Bond being a case in point.

    Ghastly, naff, urgh.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503
    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,389
    edited June 2016
    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    It's interesting that Dundee or Yes City as we were somewhat embarrassingly tagged has yet to have any such events despite having 2 Universities.

    It does rather accord with my perception that the SNP are not exactly busting a gut over this.

    The cult of Nicola is happy to support the Child Nationalisation Act, but the leadership know enough of their supporters back Leave not to shout Remain from the rooftops.
    When your Stella-ed up neighbours are tearing chunks out of each other at their barbecue, it's always more fun (& smarter) watching than getting directly involved.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    edited June 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Conversing (via smiles and hand signals) with my neighbour's Polish builders (English language skills: zero), I wondered how high, using the Australia points system, builders, labourers, plumbers, etc would score.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    Daniel Craig's James Bond being a case in point.

    Ghastly, naff, urgh.
    He's quite short too.

    I note that Amal Clooney was wearing a dress the other day that looked like she'd taken some deck chair material and tied it round herself in the shape of a bag. She looked like a bare root rose when it's been delivered and is surrounded by shapeless packaging material.

    Apparently the designer is the latest thing.....

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    Alexei Sayle famously said that he went to his tailors, had them make a perfectly fitting suit, and then asked them to take it in two inches everywhere..
  • Sean_F said:

    Leave have a strong ground game in Luton and Dunstable and surrounding villages.

    Yet in mid beds (Dorriesland) there is hardly a poster to be seen
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Miss Cyclefree, weirdly, a couple of ladies complimented me (in the past) on my fingernails. I was so surprised I wasn't sure if they were taking the piss, but I think they meant it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Conversing (via smiles and hand signals) with my neighbour's Polish builders (English language skills: zero), I wondered how high, using the Australia points system, builders, labourers, plumbers, etc would score.
    I have used the same English builders for the last 25 years. And bloody good they are too. Busy as well.

    We would do well to have proper building apprenticeships in this country. Learning how to build and build well is a worthwhile skill.
  • I get the feeling that everyone is now bored with the referendum and just want to get it over with, even everyone here judging by the posts today. It aeems to have morphed into a solve the riddle site.

    Out of interest will it be counted the next morning or with no exit poll will we have to stay up half the night for the first indication as to what ia going on.

    If it is only being announced regionally I guess there is no prospect of Sunderland revealing the first result un an hour flat.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Sure, but it's all about turnout, both right now (in terms of getting helpers to do stuff) and on the 23rd. It might have been better if all those Hampstead campaigners had wafted over to, say, Peterborough, but most people are focused on helping in their own area, and it's not absolutely clear that if they'd all been in Peterborough that it would have mobilised more Remainers.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503

    Miss Cyclefree, weirdly, a couple of ladies complimented me (in the past) on my fingernails. I was so surprised I wasn't sure if they were taking the piss, but I think they meant it.

    It's something I notice. A man's hands can be very appealing. But long fingernails are a total turn-off.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,247
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    Clearly one lot was smarter than the other. QED.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    jayfdee said:

    AnneJGP said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Saw a discarded (or lost) school tie the other day. The front part looked normal but it was attached to a circle of wide elastic. Is that how 'ties' are, these days?

    (edited to add: evening, everybody)
    Well when I was still running my business we had company ties, and special elasticated drivers ties, I always insisted the drivers wore a tie on customers premises, the elasticated were quick to put on, and a bit safer especially as we worked on industrial sites.
    My father was a London bus driver up to the mid-80s and his uniform "tie" was clip-on, so an abusive passenger couldn't try to strangle him with it. Those police forces that still wear ties (if there are any left in the UK) do the same.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    Norm said:

    LucyJones said:



    Looks like it isn't Reckless who is the real TPD in Rochester!

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/738043758793613314

    Not sure anyone should be surprised about this. Just another dishonest politician who will say and do anything to get elected. Hopefully another one destined for the scrapheap of history.
    Her rival for the nomination, Anna Firth, has been actively campaigning for Brexit in Sevenoaks and beyond.
    What is perturbing here is whether she took votes from eurosceptic voters to beat Anna Firth in the closely fought primary only to turncoat now. "Eurosceptic" neighbouring MP for Chatham and Aylesford Tracey Crouch now a gov't minister is yet to declare. Will she also put her career above her principles?
    No surprise at all.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Sure, but it's all about turnout, both right now (in terms of getting helpers to do stuff) and on the 23rd. It might have been better if all those Hampstead campaigners had wafted over to, say, Peterborough, but most people are focused on helping in their own area, and it's not absolutely clear that if they'd all been in Peterborough that it would have mobilised more Remainers.
    Thanks. It's the second time I've seem them in the high street. I've seen a Remain stall in West Hampstead as well. It just seemed odd to me. I'd have thought that a lot of the electorate would be likely to vote in any event. But I can see that from the point of view of the campaigns every vote counts.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Can you tie your own bow tie? (I detest clip-ons).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. rpjs, supermarket staff have similar ties.

    Miss Cyclefree, that sort of thing baffles me. But, there we are.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    In late afternoon London trading, the pound was at $1.4413, down from $1.4478 late in New York on Tuesday.

    So based on yesterday's comments about the interaction between the outcome of the referendum and the exchange rate, today's fall in the pound means we can expect a vote to LEAVE. Buy $s.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:
    Remain one makes perfect sense. David Cameron is the dead person.
    This campaign is not doing a lot for our tie industry is it?
    At the Hay telegraph debate yesterday, 100% of male Leave participants were wearing ties, while 33% of Remain ones were.

    Make. Of. That. What. You. Will.
    That's a stat that makes me want to vote Leave.

    I'm a founding member of the campaign for real ties, not those sodding thin ties, that are less wide than dental floss.

    And don't even get me started on those bell ends, who tie their ties in such a way that the front part of the tie is shorter than the back part.

    You can tell I'm very fashion conscious can't you.
    Can you tie your own bow tie? (I detest clip-ons).
    I can, learned how to do so from the age of seven
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2016

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    It's not they they can't have them, it's that they need to be told which ones to have.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    I get the feeling that everyone is now bored with the referendum and just want to get it over with, even everyone here judging by the posts today. It aeems to have morphed into a solve the riddle site.

    Out of interest will it be counted the next morning or with no exit poll will we have to stay up half the night for the first indication as to what ia going on.

    If it is only being announced regionally I guess there is no prospect of Sunderland revealing the first result un an hour flat.

    Local agents/tellers will presumably know the outcome and tweet them.

    However, we don't know which constituencies will be representative of the country as a whole.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Sure, but it's all about turnout, both right now (in terms of getting helpers to do stuff) and on the 23rd. It might have been better if all those Hampstead campaigners had wafted over to, say, Peterborough, but most people are focused on helping in their own area, and it's not absolutely clear that if they'd all been in Peterborough that it would have mobilised more Remainers.
    Thanks. It's the second time I've seem them in the high street. I've seen a Remain stall in West Hampstead as well. It just seemed odd to me. I'd have thought that a lot of the electorate would be likely to vote in any event. But I can see that from the point of view of the campaigns every vote counts.

    I guess West Hampstead might attract a few commuters if you put the stall between the Thameslink and Tube stations, but frankly if Remain need to work hard to get Jez and Quin and the rest of the Its grim up North London yoghurt knitters onside they really are in trouble.

    Compare with Bedfordshire where leave are doing zilch in Midbeds Dorriesland but are apparently out in Luton and Dunstable persuading Labour voters to vote leave
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.
  • nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,411
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    Daniel Craig's James Bond being a case in point.

    Ghastly, naff, urgh.
    Sean Connery was the best Bond.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Conversing (via smiles and hand signals) with my neighbour's Polish builders (English language skills: zero), I wondered how high, using the Australia points system, builders, labourers, plumbers, etc would score.
    Probably quite high on the grounds that tradesmen seem to be desperately short supply. I have been trying for months and months to find people to do work on my house. All I require is that they are competent, honest and not mobile phone number cash in hand cowboys. I have eventually found someone to do the guttering and patio, bloody good bloke too (from Eastern Europe needless to say), but I still cannot find anyone to repoint the South East Corner of the house. I have had a couple of chaps round to look at the job but neither of them have bothered to submit a quote. Double glazing is the same as is the shed roof. Friends and neighbours tell me they find the same, just cannot get honest people to work.

    I think the problem is that there is so much building going on in the South East that the good people find it easier to work on new builds as a sub-contractor. So in terms of skills shortages East European tradesmen (or indeed tradesmen from anywhere in the world) should do well in the point count and quite right too.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    I always buy ready made, off the peg trousers. I know I am 32 inch leg.

    However, there has been a recent trend for companies to offer only 31 inch or 33 inch. Must be an EU regulation. :)
  • I get the feeling that everyone is now bored with the referendum and just want to get it over with, even everyone here judging by the posts today. It aeems to have morphed into a solve the riddle site.

    Out of interest will it be counted the next morning or with no exit poll will we have to stay up half the night for the first indication as to what ia going on.

    If it is only being announced regionally I guess there is no prospect of Sunderland revealing the first result un an hour flat.

    Local agents/tellers will presumably know the outcome and tweet them.

    However, we don't know which constituencies will be representative of the country as a whole.
    Indeed but if we can get a few in before Midnight and compare turnoit and vote with previous elections it will give an indication if it is worth staying up and being a zombie the next day for.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the other day Mr Palmer said that Remain were doing a big stall in Hampstead High Street. If Remain are wasting their efforts in places like Hampstead, I'm not sure how good their ground game will turn out to be.

    Hampstead should be a shoo-in for Remain.

    Sure, but it's all about turnout, both right now (in terms of getting helpers to do stuff) and on the 23rd. It might have been better if all those Hampstead campaigners had wafted over to, say, Peterborough, but most people are focused on helping in their own area, and it's not absolutely clear that if they'd all been in Peterborough that it would have mobilised more Remainers.
    Thanks. It's the second time I've seem them in the high street. I've seen a Remain stall in West Hampstead as well. It just seemed odd to me. I'd have thought that a lot of the electorate would be likely to vote in any event. But I can see that from the point of view of the campaigns every vote counts.

    If I were running it, this week would be all about registration - have sat-enabled internet terminal stands in all the low-registration places (it's estimated that registration of eligible voters is under 50% in some parts of London). The problem could be that lots of people don't know their NI numbers by heart (me for one), but when I raised that here before I was assured that most people do.
  • Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    I always buy ready made, off the peg trousers. I know I am 32 inch leg.

    However, there has been a recent trend for companies to offer only 31 inch or 33 inch. Must be an EU regulation. :)
    Been that for years in M&S. Yours 31ly
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503
    edited June 2016

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,927

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited June 2016
    Two Leaves and one Remain poster here in my part of Cardiff Central so statistically meaningless . Zero other activity I can see locally ( though there have been stalls in the city centre) nor much of a topic of conversation either. Given Cardiff Central had a strong AV vote the other year I sort of assume an easy Remain win locally. If not they are doomed beyond belief I'd think, but I suppose the result will be announced with the rest of Wales so no chance of it indicating anything before the fact.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire for to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,261
    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    You: no.

    Simples.
  • nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Disaster for who?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,411
    tlg86 said:

    Labour also had the better ground game last year....

    And how many of the Remain events are the same people posing as different people as we saw in Kent and Sussex last week?

    https://twitter.com/Amathyst25/status/738075111471915008
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    edited June 2016
    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Alternativelly, use David Cameron's method of choice.

    Pick on a suitable possibility and assert it as A Fact.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire for to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
    120 million ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,927

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Disaster for who?
    For British citizens whose world would become encumbered by new barriers and whose opportunities would be more limited.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    However this parade of narcissists turns out the one politician who has enhanced their reputation is George Osborne. His cool demeanour is quite reassuring when juxtaposed with the peacock antics of Boris and co.

    Even with the Tories penchant for choosing unwisely I'd be surprised if they go for anyone else (on the Remain side) least of all those who have kept their heads down like Theresa May.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,503

    Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire for to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
    I thought we'd passed that point long ago......
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    You just don't understand. Europeans and others will need a visa to come to the UK. But, Brits ? You must be joking. The red carpet awaits us wherever we will go.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,165

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Anecdote alert, but I know several people who have got H1B immigrant visas here in the US and didn't need any lawyers.
  • nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Disaster for who?
    For British citizens whose world would become encumbered by new barriers and whose opportunities would be more limited.
    And the other 90% who have no intention of working in the EU?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Shocking stuff in the Yorkshire Dales. As it's clear that Driven Grouse shooting is incompatible with the survival of other moorland wildlife maybe some of you might like to sign Mr Avery's petition in the link.

    http://markavery.info/2016/06/01/poletraps-moors-caution/

    Disappointing that Plod turns a fairly blind eye to wildlife crime despite it being on the scale that at least one native species of raptor has been all but driven to extinction in England. But then who owns the estates where this is happening?

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,389
    edited June 2016

    Cyclefree said:

    I see the idea that Remain supporters can't have principles is re-emerging onthread.

    You mentioned earlier today that you thought that we were nowhere near the country's population limits, especially given technological advances etc.

    I can see the force of the point you are making but I just wanted to suggest two points:-

    1. Most of the migration will head for the areas of demand and growth which is overwhelmingly concentrated in London and the South East. That places a lot of strain on a relatively small area and further accentuates a divide between it and much of the rest of the UK. So a figure of, say, 80 million is not equally spread out over a large country - a large part is concentrated. That concentration may well place more constraints on further growth.

    2. There are large areas of the UK which are not very inhabited but (a) that may be for a good reason i.e. not much reason for anyone to want to live there; and (b) the very space/green lungs and houses with gardens which are seen as desirable become impossible save for the very few as a result of an increase in numbers. So it's not just about whether we can accommodate more but about what that means for the style of life we have, our urban and country environment, for how we live and what our idea of home is.

    I was brought up for parts of my childhood in Naples - a noisy, filthy, uber-urban city with scarcely a blade of grass anywhere in the place. I loved it. But I had Ireland too and a garden in which to play and Hampstead Heath. I think that part of the concern with an increasing population is that it will change a very English view of what the ideal or desirable life is - house and garden and a bit of space. That sense of space, that desire for to have a bit of England which people can call their own is not to be dismissed lightly. Just because we can fit more and more people in does not necessarily mean we should. We ought to have the choice.

    I would say we were at the population limit when the British Isles is no longer capable of food self sufficiency.
    So that's some time in the 18th century then.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,165
    surbiton said:

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    You just don't understand. Europeans and others will need a visa to come to the UK. But, Brits ? You must be joking. The red carpet awaits us wherever we will go.
    Her Britannic Majesty requests and requires etc....
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Election pollsters don't normally cover Northern Ireland because the main parties don't compete there.

    Anyone know if they are including NI in the referendum polls.

    NI is said to be very REMAIN so could make the difference in a close vote.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jobabob said:

    I have noted that the tie has become increasingly unpopular for London mayors. Sadiq, while undeniably a snappy dresser, is rarely seen wearing one. Boris, too, was often without neckwear. Their predecessor Ken was, by contrast, a relatively committed tie-wearer while mayor.

    British politicians are appallingly dressed. British men - on the whole, to be honest. (I now expect a load of posts from TSE pointing out his exquisite taste in shoes so I will exempt him from the charge.) They can't do casual and seem wholly unacquainted with mirrors. And the suits these days are an abomination. They rarely fit and those stupid skinny suits make men look like Victorian bank clerks.

    And men with long dirty fingernails should be executed, frankly. Unless they're Monty Don - and even then they should keep them short.

    The suit wearers that make me wince are those who obviously went to the tailor and asked for their trousers to be made two inches too-sodding-short.

    Trousers should break once, somewhere between the top of the shin and the shoe according to taste.
    I always buy ready made, off the peg trousers. I know I am 32 inch leg.

    However, there has been a recent trend for companies to offer only 31 inch or 33 inch. Must be an EU regulation. :)
    Heartily recommend Charles Tyrwhitt off the peg tailoring - trousers come unhemmed.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    nunu said:

    Decided against canvassing for Leave.
    Was afraid of this scenario:

    Voter: Will I need a visa to travel to Europe
    Me: We just don't know.

    Surely the answer to that is Do you need a visa to Travel to Iceland, Switzerland or Canada, No. So highly unlikely.
    Travel isn't the issue. It's the right to work and live that's the concern. Try moving to the US to work without expensive lawyers like Fragomen. It would be a disaster if we had to experience anything similar to take a job in France.
    Disaster for who?
    For British citizens whose world would become encumbered by new barriers and whose opportunities would be more limited.
    And the other 90% who have no intention of working in the EU?
    I seem to remember a poll of young people had something high like 98.5% having no intention of working in the EU. I tried to find a link but cannot find anything. Maybe someone here remembers.
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