viewcode said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain up to 78% now on Betfair.

Even I think that price is bollocks.

Round objects.

"Yes, but who is 'Round' and to what does he object?"

(a) The British electorate
(b) The European Union

Inshallah.

Casino_Royale said:

Boris has won The Spectator’s President Erdogan Offensive Poetry competition, and here it is:

There was a young fellow from Ankara
Who was a terrific wankerer
Till he sowed his wild oats
With the help of a goat
But he didn’t even stop to thankera.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/boris-johnson-wins-the-spectators-president-erdogan-offensive-poetry-competition/

I'm sorry, this is typical posh boy Boris being rewarded disproportionately to his talents self-congratulatedly by the Spectator. I can think of far more offensive poetry, to wit:

Erdogan is a [redacted]
Erdogan is a [redacted]
Erdogan is a [redacted]
And so's his mum.

Honestly, no talent that boy...

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

More likely people who are in the middle who have worked hard to get where they are, perhaps have a mortgage, and aren't able to see anything in the Leavers economic argument to justify the risk of supporting them.

Plato_Says said:

LewisDuckworth said:

richardDodd said:

If WHITTINDALE wants 10% of upper management at the BBC to be Gay by 2020 ..he will have to sack a few of the present staff to get the numbers down to that level

Presumably, there is no allowance for personal privacy in these matters - the policy could only be enacted if individuals were forced to reveal their sexual preferences (and some may prefer celibacy).

I fail to see what possible reason there is today to puff up being gay as an employment quota. It's like employing vegans. Only they love to tell us about it. And Matthew Parris who twaddles on about it endlessly.

Q: how do you know if someone is vegan?
A: they tell you.

Who knew? Bill is a saint! Let the hagiography begin:

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/280447-clinton-world-criticism-of-bill-mind-boggling

Mind-bogglingly mind-boggling that Clinton World should think it's mind-boggling to criticize St Bill. Just how out of touch are they?

Mr. T, if it's a missile fired from a boat that would raise more questions about policing the Mediterranean.

Mr. Viewcode, must agree. I tried to think of something for that competition (was under the impression the winner would be announced in June), and had one or two nice ideas (wanted to rhyme 'ISIS penetrated his Sublime Porte, he welcomed them into his inner court') but poetry isn't really my thing.

Also, Boris won't notice the £1,000 prize....

Four down, Vince walking back.

Another wicket....

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Was that to exclude us from certain aspects ?

This time the amendment seems to be from the left, giving the NHS a veto over TTIP rather than cracking down on worker's rights or w/e the 1993 amendment was.

I'd imagine the amendment would command majority support in the country !

No, the Eurosceptics wanted us to adopt the social chapter.

John Major had said he would never sign us up to the social chapter, so the eurosceptics thought it would be a good idea to derail the whole Maastricht vote by backing Labour's amendment, who were in favour of the social chapter.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Was that to exclude us from certain aspects ?

This time the amendment seems to be from the left, giving the NHS a veto over TTIP rather than cracking down on worker's rights or w/e the 1993 amendment was.

I'd imagine the amendment would command majority support in the country !

No, the Eurosceptics wanted us to adopt the social chapter.

John Major had said he would never sign us up to the social chapter, so the eurosceptics thought it would be a good idea to derail the whole Maastricht vote.

The UK has won Eurovision only ONCE since Maastricht!

Believe in BRITAIN

Be LEAVE!

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Was that to exclude us from certain aspects ?

This time the amendment seems to be from the left, giving the NHS a veto over TTIP rather than cracking down on worker's rights or w/e the 1993 amendment was.

I'd imagine the amendment would command majority support in the country !

No, the Eurosceptics wanted us to adopt the social chapter.

John Major had said he would never sign us up to the social chapter, so the eurosceptics thought it would be a good idea to derail the whole Maastricht vote.

Funny when you consider it was immaterial anyway. The ECJ just reclassified it as a health and safety issue and forced it on us irrespective of what Parliament voted for.

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Cameron looks like he is repeating Major's mistake.

FrancisUrquhart said:

5 down....

Tea 10, rather than T20?

And another one. Looks like @TSE has missed half the batsmen!

Sunil_Prasannan said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

5 down....

Tea 10, rather than T20?

"Fatslogger" of the Betfair forum must be having a good lunch:

Fatslogger • May 19, 2016 11:15 AM BST
Couldn't refuse more SL at 19s. I now have a comedy £10.5k green on them. Wickets please!

Plato_Says said:

SeanT said:

Seems the plane veered left and right, wildly, before crashing - implying, heavily, that someone got to the pilot (unless it WAS the pilot) in the cockpit.

I thought all cockpits had doors locked, now?

Either way it must surely have been an inside job. A steward or a co-pilot. Someone able to get in there, evading security, and crash the bastard.

Hard to do anything about that. Don't allow Muslims to work on planes? Difficult if you're Egyptair.

Indeed, the flight changes sound like cockpit interference. I thought that was near impossible post 911 too.

The Germanwings bloke crashed the plane himself, though he waited till the other pilot vacated the cockpit.

Mr. T, explosion damaging the engine/flight controls?

Against cockpit interference is that the German chap who flew into a mountain had to do it steadily over a long time, gradually decreasing the altitude (planes, I heard at the time, don't apparently allow for a deliberate nose dive). If the altitude had been gradually declining, presumably radar will reveal that.

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

Plato_Says said:

SeanT said:

Seems the plane veered left and right, wildly, before crashing - implying, heavily, that someone got to the pilot (unless it WAS the pilot) in the cockpit.

I thought all cockpits had doors locked, now?

Either way it must surely have been an inside job. A steward or a co-pilot. Someone able to get in there, evading security, and crash the bastard.

Hard to do anything about that. Don't allow Muslims to work on planes? Difficult if you're Egyptair.

Indeed, the flight changes sound like cockpit interference. I thought that was near impossible post 911 too.

The direction changes given could be a red herring, as the radar tries to plot something disintegrating on the screen rather than being evidence of a fight for control. The transponder showed nothing amiss at all until it went dead.

British investigators the AAIB have offered assistance to Egypt, will probably work with the French on black box recovery as soon as possible.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. T, explosion damaging the engine/flight controls?.

Again, unlikely to lead to an instantaneous loss of data transmission - whatever happened was catastrophic and it would appear, without warning.

Stark_Dawning said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

I love the fact you actually believe that rubbish

SeanT said:

CarlottaVance said:

SeanT said:

MTimT said:

SeanT said:

Ominous reports now from the Egyptair calamity

Very likely a bomb or some other terror attack. ISIS "claiming responsibility"

What will this do to European security? Expect enormous queues at airports through the summer.

What will this do to French tourism? The plane took off from Paris. Unless it turns out this was a missile fired from a boat then ... eeesh.

I think a bomb or land-based firing is more likely. I am not an expert on these issues, so if Yokel is around, he can correct me, but AFAIK ground-to-air missiles that reach that altitude usually require multiple vehicles, including upward-looking radar. So it's unlikely all that would be easily packed onto a small boat.

But it was quite far from land, and over the sea?

The reports of it veering wildly sound more like a violent hijack than an explosion.

I'd be careful.

The Greek reports are radar returns which may well be from a breaking up aircraft - which send out apparently rapid changes of direction, but are just returns from larger chunks of the aircraft heading in different directions.

Whatever happened was sudden and catastrophic - with a hijacker there would usually be time to get out a distress message.

Yes, quite possibly. I'm no expert.

Haaretz is reporting that the pilot suddenly stopped responding, minutes before he entered Egyptian airspace. And at this point the plane was still on its normal path

So maybe it was the pilot himself.... Who knows....

The Germanwings pilot waited until the other pilot vacated the cockpit.

MaxPB said:

At around the same time AfD declared themselves an openly anti-Islam party saying that Islamic people are rolling back equality for men and women in Germany and are a threat to national security. They have begun campaigning on an openly anti-Islamic basis, they want no new Mosques built in Germany, no new Muslim immigrants and a repatriation of all recent migrants/refugees back to their home countries. In all other areas they are not fussed by immigration it seems.

Interestingly, Marion Marechel-Le Pen is pushing for a very similar change in the Front National, arguing that the EU should be at the forefront of fighting for Christian values.

malcolmg said:

He is spending a shedload of cash on it

Rumours abound that Turnberry SNP are insisting that Trump rename the course Turnipberry.

SeanT said:

Sandpit said:

Greek TV now reporting debris field sighted by airborne SAR crews.

I've just seen a tweet saying CNN are reporting a "fight in the cockpit"

But I can't see the actual CNN report, so caveat emptor

Sounds like CNN are adding up 2 and 2 to make 17, as they usually do when they don't understand what is actually happening or has happened.

This one wasn't a problem with people in the cockpit, this was a plane that was flying straight and level until it suddenly very much wasn't.

SeanT said:

CarlottaVance said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. T, explosion damaging the engine/flight controls?.

Again, unlikely to lead to an instantaneous loss of data transmission - whatever happened was catastrophic and it would appear, without warning.

But if it was a bomb that is extremely disquieting in terms of European airport security. It means ISIS/whoeever have found a new way to get bombs on planes, in big European cities - or a way to get bombs on planes in the Middle East which can then go undetected in France.

I find that hard to believe. Maybe because I don't WANT to believe.

Yes, although its possible a bomb was smuggled aboard in Cairo or an earlier stop (tho unlikely...)

Tellingly Le Monde's knee jerk reaction was (the highly unlikely) 'missile from Libya or Syria'....

JackW said:

malcolmg said:

He is spending a shedload of cash on it

Rumours abound that Turnberry SNP are insisting that Trump rename the course Turnipberry.

Emily Turnipberry?

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

I love the fact you actually believe that rubbish

Blair owes more to IDS than he does to any other politician. IDS's wrecking of John Major's imaged paved the way to the 1997 landslide. As for the Iraq folly, it's not even that IDS's opposition to Blair was cr*p - he actually gave him his grovelling and unquestioning loyalty. 1997 and Iraq are the defining moments of Blair's career. IDS was chief enabler on both occasions.

SeanT said:

CarlottaVance said:

SeanT said:

CarlottaVance said:

SeanT said:

MTimT said:

SeanT said:

Ominous reports now from the Egyptair calamity

Very likely a bomb or some other terror attack. ISIS "claiming responsibility"

What will this do to European security? Expect enormous queues at airports through the summer.

What will this do to French tourism? The plane took off from Paris. Unless it turns out this was a missile fired from a boat then ... eeesh.

I think a bomb or land-based firing is more likely. I am not an expert on these issues, so if Yokel is around, he can correct me, but AFAIK ground-to-air missiles that reach that altitude usually require multiple vehicles, including upward-looking radar. So it's unlikely all that would be easily packed onto a small boat.

But it was quite far from land, and over the sea?

The reports of it veering wildly sound more like a violent hijack than an explosion.

I'd be careful.

The Greek reports are radar returns which may well be from a breaking up aircraft - which send out apparently rapid changes of direction, but are just returns from larger chunks of the aircraft heading in different directions.

Whatever happened was sudden and catastrophic - with a hijacker there would usually be time to get out a distress message.

Yes, quite possibly. I'm no expert.

Haaretz is reporting that the pilot suddenly stopped responding, minutes before he entered Egyptian airspace. And at this point the plane was still on its normal path

So maybe it was the pilot himself.... Who knows....

Apparently there is a 'dead spot' in transmissions from hand-off from Greek control to saying hello to Egyptian Control - so 10 minute gaps need not be suspicious.

We should all pray that it is a mad steward, jihadist co-pilot: the idea it was a bomb, on a plane which took off at CDGaulle, is just too scary.

It need not have got on a CDG. If it was a bomb, it might have got on at Egypt and remained hidden until detonated. These busses tend to go backwards and forwards on the same route. There were stories a while back that security amongst ground crew wasn't great in Egypt.

FrancisUrquhart said:

SeanT said:

CarlottaVance said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. T, explosion damaging the engine/flight controls?.

Again, unlikely to lead to an instantaneous loss of data transmission - whatever happened was catastrophic and it would appear, without warning.

But if it was a bomb that is extremely disquieting in terms of European airport security. It means ISIS/whoeever have found a new way to get bombs on planes, in big European cities - or a way to get bombs on planes in the Middle East which can then go undetected in France.

I find that hard to believe. Maybe because I don't WANT to believe.

TBH there are so many ways in which a bomb could be delivered onto a plane. All the screening of passengers is here nor there. You only need a handful of corrupted individuals in the correct roles.

Although, in that case, I'm not sure 66 passengers on an A320 to Cairo would have been my choice.

Stark_Dawning said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

I love the fact you actually believe that rubbish

Blair owes more to IDS than he does to any other politician. IDS's wrecking of John Major's imaged paved the way to the 1997 landslide. As for the Iraq folly, it's not even that IDS's opposition to Blair was cr*p - he actually gave him his grovelling and unquestioning loyalty. 1997 and Iraq are the defining moments of Blair's career. IDS was chief enabler on both occasions.

The real kicker is Black Wednesday. Nobody remembered that the Labour Party wanted to enter the Exchange rate mechanism. The Tories were tires and in office for a long time, without a record of economic competence to run on they basically had nothing - they were seen to have achieved all they were going to on any other front.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

SeanT said:

Sandpit said:

Greek TV now reporting debris field sighted by airborne SAR crews.

I've just seen a tweet saying CNN are reporting a "fight in the cockpit"

But I can't see the actual CNN report, so caveat emptor

Sounds like CNN are adding up 2 and 2 to make 17, as they usually do when they don't understand what is actually happening or has happened.

They have to make their hourly quota of "breaking news" flashing banners.

Don't start me!

If almost everything I hear about a complicated subject I actually understand (computers and aeroplanes in my case) is so obviously bollocks, then how's about the rest of the stuff, on which I rely on them to inform me?

NEW VAPID BILGE THREAD!

Stark_Dawning said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MaxPB said:

Lord give me strength, are the buggers really trying to defeat the government on the Queen's speech?

Yup. The Eurosceptic Loonbag wing really haven't learned any lessons.

I wish the more moderate Leavers would have a word with them

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

I love the fact you actually believe that rubbish

Blair owes more to IDS than he does to any other politician. IDS's wrecking of John Major's imaged paved the way to the 1997 landslide. As for the Iraq folly, it's not even that IDS's opposition to Blair was cr*p - he actually gave him his grovelling and unquestioning loyalty. 1997 and Iraq are the defining moments of Blair's career. IDS was chief enabler on both occasions.

Major destroyed his own image. He was responsible for the push to enter ERM and it is serendipity that he was in charge when that idiotic decision came back to destroy the Tory party for a decade or more.

Stark_Dawning said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

VapidBilge said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

VapidBilge said:

I thought you were an admirer of "ruthlessness" and "play to win"?

Until someone does the same to you.

As someone has already said:

MarqueeMark said:

The more I see of Remainers, the more I think it would do them a power of good to be losers for once. They do seem all too often to express the views of people who have had life handed to them on a plate - and hate the notion of anything that would put that at risk...

I'm also an admirer of not repeating the same mistakes.

This is all very reminiscent of the Tory Eurosceptics voting in favour of the Social Chapter amendment back in 1993, and that turned out so well for them in 1997

Gosh, you really can't understand what happened in 1992, can you?

John Major was almost solely responsible for pro-European policy that wiped out a carefully crafted coalition of self-employed and home owners. There's a reason that Ukip's emblem is a £. Instead of taking the blame himself, he blamed Italians, Germans and anyone but himself. The Tory party itself ended up tearing itself apart because of his egotism. Stop trying to offload the blame from it should lie.

Rubbish. Gentleman John got us all the opt outs we could possibly expect: adoption of the euro and the Social Chapter. But IDS and his weird mates still insisted on humiliating the man, softening him up for Blair and New Labour to deliver the final, lethal blow. On any number of issues - not least Europe and Iraq - IDS was Blair's butler.

I love the fact you actually believe that rubbish

Blair owes more to IDS than he does to any other politician. IDS's wrecking of John Major's imaged paved the way to the 1997 landslide. As for the Iraq folly, it's not even that IDS's opposition to Blair was cr*p - he actually gave him his grovelling and unquestioning loyalty. 1997 and Iraq are the defining moments of Blair's career. IDS was chief enabler on both occasions.

Major had wrecked his image and that of the Conservative party over the ERM.

IDS had nothing to do with that nor would 1% of the electorate have known who IDS was in 1997.

If you want subsequent factors to the wrecking of the Conservative party's image in the 1990s then remember all the sleeze associated with it, its complacent arrogance from being in office too long, its hypocrisy (the 'back to basics' campaign) and its out of touch irrelevance (the traffic cones hotline etc).

And for your information Major never ruled out joining the Euro even after the ERM disaster - all he ever promised was not to join the Euro in 1996 or 1997 which was never a possibility.