politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How LEAVE responds to authority interventions that it doesn
Comments
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By the way - someone here recommended 'The Gatekeepers' documentary the other day. I watched it last night - it's really very good. I'm afraid I've forgotten who did so, but my thanks to them should they read this.0
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Oi. Some of us are debating some serious big issues here.DavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.0 -
Mr. Royale, this is clearly not a serious thread.
There hasn't been one mention of the Second Punic War*.
*Until now.0 -
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.0 -
It works ok if you emphasise the all and than the 'marks'. It is a bit graceless though I agree.SeanT said:
That's rather good, but there's one too many syllables in the last lineLuckyguy1983 said:A PB attempt at a takedown
Of chaps who say Europe's a shakedown
Is likely to stall
Change nothing at all
And bears all the hallmarks of a breakdown
Here all week etc.
Perhaps
And shows all the signs of a breakdown0 -
FTA?0
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If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting
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Free trade agreement.Morris_Dancer said:FTA?
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High inflation in the Consumer Price Index destroys economies - see South America and Britain in the 1970s.blackburn63 said:House prices falling needn't be a bad thing.
High inflation in house prices gets welcomed or ignored.0 -
Both work on supply and demand, of course. Prices would drop if people couldn’t afford to buy, which suggests that people wouldn’t be better off.blackburn63 said:
Yes, it wouldn't benefit everybody but if prices dropped so would rents.OldKingCole said:
I got somewhat shouted atr for saying that this morning, although later someone agreed with me.blackburn63 said:House prices falling needn't be a bad thing.
My 20 something grandson and his girlfriend would unquestionably welcome a fall in house prices; even as teachers it’s not easy. Whether someone in the position I was 35 years ago, when prices went into a downward spiral, with a business in trouble and little remaining equity in my house would be as keen I doubt.
More people would be better off.0 -
The Ken Livingstone of boxing is back at it...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2016/05/13/tyson-fury-launches-into-foul-mouthed-anti-semitic-video-rant-an/0 -
I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.0
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Another good day for Remain with an increased dose of Project Fear on the economy and Sir John Major to speak up for free movement at last.Leave is increasingly looking like a marginalised sect of weird old white folk who deny anthropegenic climate change and want to turn the NHS into Tescos.0
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That's what I expect. The Tories will not be able to pass a bill themselves and Labour won't help them out, or will attach impossible (from the Tory point of view) conditions to doing so. One has to keep in mind that there is a huge prize for Labour if the Tories really do split. As in split split.MaxPB said:
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.
And asking the public would be the obvious manoeuvre for a Tory leader trying to prevent that.0 -
I agree with this, and because I am Scot, with the extra perspective and complication of Scotland having equivalent issues. I am very sympathetic to the idea of being master of our ship, whether the ship is Britain or Scotland. But the world we live in is a globalised one. What problem are we actually solving, or indeed realistically can solve, through isolation? You go through a huge amount of hassle and end up with something less than what you have already or it looks very similar to what you have already.The_Taxman said:
At one stage a few years ago I might have voted for Brexit. I have changed my mind as the potential economic dislocation and complete absence of a viable alternative economic strategy in relation to trade has firmly made me inclined to vote for Remain. The Leave campaign do not seem to understand that the EU is a developed market and the demand for the services of the city of London for instance are unlikely to be replicated by new markets in underdeveloped economies. The services of the city of London are dependent on economies having reached the stage of complexity, where they need derivative trading, future markets and the like. I don’t think the Leave campaign is in the remote sense credible.Scott_P said:
It is quite extraordinary.Bodie said:The Leave.EU campaign seems to be completely clueless.
The Remain campaign predicts economic chaos.
The Leave campaign replies "You're right, but..."
It's an Ed Miliband moment.
I also wonder if we voted to exit the EU if other countries population would look for substitute products and services from anywhere but UK. My thinking on this is derived from the Scottish vote in 2014 as had the referendum gone the other way I would be disinclined to buy products from Scotland, something that I know other English people would have embraced.
Immigration is another point, I was opposed to much of the Immigration that occurred post 1997. This is now irreversible and the establishment IMO have embraced a strategy of whoever is in power of increasing migration to enhance the size of the economy to ensure that the UK remains a significant global player. If the UK exits the EU does anyone really think the eastern Europeans will all return to their country of origin and what happens to the businesses that are reliant on the immigrants for their Labour? This would be part of the unacceptable shock to the economy through uncertainty as the Immigrants would save money rather than spending it if they thought they were going to be removed from the UK.
So I think on balance Remain has to be the only game in town as the loss of sovereignty has already occurred and we are all surviving despite this.0 -
Hypothetical scenario:- Leave wins but it very quickly becomes evident that the economic warnings from IMF, G20, BoE etc were actually correct, trade negotiations become a nightmare etc etc - which individuals stand to benefit most? Where is money to be made?
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I think that without something on immigration it doesn't even get to the House.MaxPB said:
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.
It will be a huge part of Leave's mandate.0 -
Good fun Mr. Meeks. People ask how this conflicts with work. I would answer that an active brain can't be quelled. Forty hour week, Pfffft.
By the way, here is the first couple of sentences from the Wiki entry for automaton:
"An automaton (pronunciated /ɔːˈtɒmətən/)(plural: automata or automatons) is a self-operating machine, or a machine or control mechanism designed to follow automatically a predetermined sequence of operations, or respond to predetermined instructions.[1] Some automata, such as bellstrikers in mechanical clocks, are designed to give the illusion to the casual observer that they are operating under their own power."0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Royale, this is clearly not a serious thread.
There hasn't been one mention of the Second Punic War*.
*Until now.
We have had "Res ipsa loquitur" though.0 -
*you'reAlanbrooke said:
If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting
**But amazing limerick0 -
fast poetry feel free to edit :-)Luckyguy1983 said:
*you'reAlanbrooke said:
If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting
**But amazing limerick0 -
As a free marketeer I take your point about supply and demand, but a free marketeer called Thatcher distorted the market by selling govt stock at massively discounted prices. She wasn't the only one but Labour, supposedly the party of the ordinary person, continued to deceive their voters.OldKingCole said:
Both work on supply and demand, of course. Prices would drop if people couldn’t afford to buy, which suggests that people wouldn’t be better off.blackburn63 said:
Yes, it wouldn't benefit everybody but if prices dropped so would rents.OldKingCole said:
I got somewhat shouted atr for saying that this morning, although later someone agreed with me.blackburn63 said:House prices falling needn't be a bad thing.
My 20 something grandson and his girlfriend would unquestionably welcome a fall in house prices; even as teachers it’s not easy. Whether someone in the position I was 35 years ago, when prices went into a downward spiral, with a business in trouble and little remaining equity in my house would be as keen I doubt.
More people would be better off.0 -
Fascinating comparison of verbal habits by Trump, Hillary, Sanders - and Presidents from history. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/trumps-cleverest-trick-is-sounding-stupid-65p8zp3dd0
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As a strong Remainer, I do think the Remain campaign has been splurging out too much and too quickly on the negative arguments, the IMF and Mark Carney both so close together and used up early seems like a waste to me. There will be more and more diminishing returns. A well placed Pensions or House Price warning a week before the vote would have reached the most people and wavered more undecideds. Maybe time to change track and start putting a more positive vision of our membership forward for a while?0
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Selling tents to migrants in KentOllyT said:Hypothetical scenario:- Leave wins but it very quickly becomes evident that the economic warnings from IMF, G20, BoE etc were actually correct, trade negotiations become a nightmare etc etc - which individuals stand to benefit most? Where is money to be made?
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Scott_P said:
Calling voters stupid is a special touch
https://twitter.com/leaveeuofficial/status/731133748712984578
The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.0 -
Liberate tutemet ex inferis!Alanbrooke said:
hodie Scotus podex estPlato_Says said:Alanbrooke said:
rectum ad superbumScott_P said:
Reductio ad absurdumWanderer said:there must be a name for the rhetorical device of making your opponent's argument seem ridiculous by exaggerating it isn't there? But what is it?
Of course it doesn't work when your opponent's argument is beyond the scale of ridiculous to start with
but the argument is crap.
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Check your PMs.Casino_Royale said:
I think that without something on immigration it doesn't even get to the House.MaxPB said:
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.
It will be a huge part of Leave's mandate.0 -
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known0 -
Backing NOM or laying Conservative Majority perhaps? Those are decent bets anyway imo (but probably long range).OllyT said:Hypothetical scenario:- Leave wins but it very quickly becomes evident that the economic warnings from IMF, G20, BoE etc were actually correct, trade negotiations become a nightmare etc etc - which individuals stand to benefit most? Where is money to be made?
Backing Corbyn for PM at this stage won't be a winner as there'd be a Tory successor to Cameron first.0 -
Logged in for the first time today... and no, actually I really can't be bothered with yet another panicked attempt by Meeks to sledge Leave, its all getting a bit desperate sounding.
Possibly he saw that nice poll that showed how sensitive the Remain vote was to immigration numbers, which by happy chance arrived practically the same time as the report that the official figures were bilge, and about 2.5m light of the real figure.
Frankly the above sort of hand waving is going to cut no ice whatsoever with the voting public when compared to the realities of having been lied to about immigration figures for years and years. Its not even the immigration figures that are going to kill it, its the lies, the systematic, politically motivated LIES.
Oh dear.0 -
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.The_Taxman said:I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
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I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?0
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the original "stupid" was George Bush, the use of the phrase is directed at your opponents leaders.Scott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known0 -
That's what having a job is.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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Mr. Max, cheers.0
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So when he finally starts talking smart, he'll sound really, really smart...Plato_Says said:Fascinating comparison of verbal habits by Trump, Hillary, Sanders - and Presidents from history. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/trumps-cleverest-trick-is-sounding-stupid-65p8zp3dd
Guy's a genius!0 -
Wasn't the "stupid" directed at Democrats working on Clinton's campaign, reminding them of voters' priorities?Alanbrooke said:
the original "stupid" was George Bush, the use of the phrase is directed at your opponents leaders.Scott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known0 -
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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Nope.Luckyguy1983 said:
*you'reAlanbrooke said:
If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting
**But amazing limerick
"your' as in 'belonging to you'
rather than
"you are"0 -
I’m sure that Brexit would have no effect on the OAPension, at least in the short term but what about public service pensions? Weren’t they cut in Ireland and Greece after the crash? IIRC they were reduced here between the wars as well.Sean_F said:
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.The_Taxman said:I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
Would depend of course on whether the threatened plagues of locusts, frogs etc actually materialised,0 -
The text is next to pics of Osborne and Legarde, not ordinary Joes.Scott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known0 -
Interesting that one of pb's most committed Remainers is fond of using the expressionScott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/05/01/its-the-economy-stupid/0 -
Simplest money to be made would be by shorting sterling or by buying US dollars or (perhaps even better) Swiss Francs - money will flee the Euro as well as Sterling in the event of Brexit.OllyT said:Hypothetical scenario:- Leave wins but it very quickly becomes evident that the economic warnings from IMF, G20, BoE etc were actually correct, trade negotiations become a nightmare etc etc - which individuals stand to benefit most? Where is money to be made?
Longer term, any company which exports mainly to the US or to other non-Eurozone markets is likely to be a winner from the fall in sterling. And of course anyone holding US stocks will benefit in a similar way. Or you could short UK domestic stocks and go long on US-focused stocks to benefit from the damage to the UK economy.
I can't see any upside other than the exchange rate effect, in the foreseeable future.
Of course if there's a Remain result these will be a money-losing strategies as Sterling bounces back - it's not a one-way bet! For that reason, my preferred strategy in my pension is simply the rather boring one of maintaining a well-diversified portfolio with a higher-than-conventional proportion of non-UK assets.0 -
I had thought that it was a Bill Clinton reminder to his own campaign supporters about what was the only issue to fight in the 1992 election.Alanbrooke said:
the original "stupid" was George Bush, the use of the phrase is directed at your opponents leaders.Scott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known0 -
Mr. Dancer, Glad to have caught you.Morris_Dancer said:FTA?
I shall shamelessly not post anything to do with the threader, but to let you know the signed copy of your book arrived today. As that copy of the book is earmarked for my son's birthday present, I am frustrated that I can't get read it and give it a review
However, I shall order another copy for myself and hopefully it will arrive soon (then when I come up to Leeds in June you can sign it as the price for your dinner at the Brazilian Place).
For those on here wondering WTF I am talking about, I am of of course referring to "Thaddeus White's beautifully written and immensely funny fantasy comedy" currently consisting of two parts but now available in one volume - The adventures of Sir Edric.
Thaddeus White is better known to most of us on here as Morris Dancer, an idiot (sorry, incredibly handsome and talented chap) who sells his work far, far too cheaply.0 -
Oh yes. Soz.CarlottaVance said:
Nope.Luckyguy1983 said:
*you'reAlanbrooke said:
If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting
**But amazing limerick
"your' as in 'belonging to you'
rather than
"you are"0 -
Designed to be read by, wait for it, voters.Sunil_Prasannan said:The text is next to pics of Osborne and Legarde, not ordinary Joes.
Unless the idea is they look at the poster but don't read the text. Could work...0 -
This is quite bizarre. Trump apparently giving an interview in the guise of a fictional PR person working for him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/in-1991-interview-trump-spokesman-sounds-a-lot-like-trump/2016/05/12/965c82e2-188e-11e6-971a-dadf9ab18869_video.html0 -
Five years on, people would be wondering what all the fuss had been about.OldKingCole said:
I’m sure that Brexit would have no effect on the OAPension, at least in the short term but what about public service pensions? Weren’t they cut in Ireland and Greece after the crash? IIRC they were reduced here between the wars as well.Sean_F said:
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.The_Taxman said:I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
Would depend of course on whether the threatened plagues of locusts, frogs etc actually materialised,0 -
There was a young Leaver from Rye
Who dismissed Remain's warnings as pie in the sky
He got one hell of a shock
When his work closed the lock
Because Brexit had caused it to die0 -
That's why I like the argument, the implication is we're working for the EUWanderer said:
That's what having a job is.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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I don't know about that. Maybe so. But it's been obvious all along that Trump has been talking the talk of the blue collar dispossessed, who are very very angry, especially with Obama. But unless he can broaden out now he won't have enough support to win.RodCrosby said:
So when he finally starts talking smart, he'll sound really, really smart...Plato_Says said:Fascinating comparison of verbal habits by Trump, Hillary, Sanders - and Presidents from history. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/trumps-cleverest-trick-is-sounding-stupid-65p8zp3dd
Guy's a genius!0 -
If the Government receives less in tax revenue due to economic shock, where will they get the funds to sustain above inflation increases in Pensions? These are the only group insulted from austerity so far. If they are more likely to vote for Brexit, why should they be insulated from what they vote for? Much of the austerity of low hanging fruit has already been done so tough decisions will need to be taken. Working age benefits including those with disabilities have been frozen for 4 years, even for those with severe conditions so why should pensioners be exempt?Sean_F said:
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.The_Taxman said:I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
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How much are you offering?blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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You are wasting your talents running an engineering firm, you really are.Alanbrooke said:
If you spend all your time cut and pastingDavidL said:The limericks almost made this thread worth it.
Almost.
It's your very own life that your wasting
for who gives two hoots
what a penpusher moots
when it's real life you should be out tasting0 -
Brilliant, my point entirely.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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A fragrant French lady called Christine
Says the case for Remaining is pristine
She's allegedly criminal
So success has been minimal
We've concluded she's taking the pisstine
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Naught but REMAIN scaremongering/bullshittingSouthamObserver said:There was a young Leaver from Rye
Who dismissed Remain's warnings as pie in the sky
He got one hell of a shock
When his work closed the lock
Because Brexit had caused it to die
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If we do Leave, I hope you are right; I suspect much of the world will look very different though.Sean_F said:
Five years on, people would be wondering what all the fuss had been about.OldKingCole said:
I’m sure that Brexit would have no effect on the OAPension, at least in the short term but what about public service pensions? Weren’t they cut in Ireland and Greece after the crash? IIRC they were reduced here between the wars as well.Sean_F said:
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.The_Taxman said:I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
Would depend of course on whether the threatened plagues of locusts, frogs etc actually materialised,0 -
Must say that these limericks have been enjoyable to read on the way to work
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Isn’t that a bit like marriage? Although there you hand over the money as well as not making the decisions.Richard_Nabavi said:
How much are you offering?blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
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Luckyguy1983 said:
A fragrant French lady called Christine
Says the case for Remaining is pristine
She's allegedly criminal
So success has been minimal
We've concluded she's taking the pisstine 0 -
If the poster lacked pics of prominent REMAINERs, you would be right.Scott_P said:
Designed to be read by, wait for it, voters.Sunil_Prasannan said:The text is next to pics of Osborne and Legarde, not ordinary Joes.
Unless the idea is they look at the poster but don't read the text. Could work...0 -
Yes. It is absurd and childish; it's the "appeal to ridicule" or "reductio ad ridiculum" fallacy ("reductio ad absurdum" is something else).Wanderer said:
That's an example of what I mean. Cameron said that there would be risks to security and stability. This is relayed as "Cameron says Brexit means World War III (lol)."runnymede said:
LEAVE doesn't really need to make these arguments look ridiculous by exaggerating them, because they are already so exaggerated. Can you really caricature a caricature?Wanderer said:Surely the principal response of Leave to the above claims, in evidence on this very thread, is to exaggerate the claims themselves and thereby make them absurd. Eg, "the IMF says the sky will fall in." This then tees up a comment like, "We've survived world wars, Brexit will be no problem."
This might be quite effective. I'm not sure. If you are already genuinely concerned by the potential negative effects of Brexit (as I am, fwiw) then it's irritating to have someone laugh at the idea. Not sure that describes a majority of people though. So this tactic may be working quite well.
I recall that even before the campaign had really started Dan Hannan was tweeting pictures of dinosaurs in the Thames captioned "this is what will happen..."
By the way, there must be a name for the rhetorical device of making your opponent's argument seem ridiculous by exaggerating it isn't there? But what is it? (I don't think it's hyperbole as that (iirc) is properly speaking exaggeration for emphasis whereas this is exaggeration for ridicule.)
The PM's 'WAR' speech being the most obvious example...
Most of the Leave criticism that I've seen so far is either pure ad hominem stuff or unsubstantiated claims of corruption or incompetence together with the aforementioned reductio ad ridiculum tactic. If Leave disagree with a claim, then let's see them rebut it with facts or point out any inconsistencies or spurious assumptions. That's the way it's done in science, but I guess politics is different.0 -
That second line makes this a fail I'm afraid.SouthamObserver said:There was a young Leaver from Rye
Who dismissed Remain's warnings as pie in the sky
He got one hell of a shock
When his work closed the lock
Because Brexit had caused it to die0 -
You don't know the price but you're considering it.Richard_Nabavi said:
How much are you offering?blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
My answer is, no thanks.0 -
In the entire report there was only a single mention of “debt” and 96 mentions of “referendum”. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/in-or-out-of-the-eu-the-economys-in-a-mess-ldjzcdrtr0
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Unfortunately for the Brexiteers the question is backwards.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
We currently have freedom of movement and economic prosperity.
So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"0 -
LOL!OldKingCole said:Isn’t that a bit like marriage? Although there you hand over the money as well as not making the decisions.
I got into a bit of trouble the other day when I poured a particularly fine claret for my wife and myself, with the comment that, although I had promised to share my worldly goods, I hadn't necessarily promised to share them in equal proportions.0 -
Weesa people gonna die???FeersumEnjineeya said:
Yes. It is absurd and childish; it's the "appeal to ridicule" or "reductio ad ridiculum" fallacy ("reductio ad absurdum" is something else).Wanderer said:
That's an example of what I mean. Cameron said that there would be risks to security and stability. This is relayed as "Cameron says Brexit means World War III (lol)."runnymede said:
LEAVE doesn't really need to make these arguments look ridiculous by exaggerating them, because they are already so exaggerated. Can you really caricature a caricature?Wanderer said:Surely the principal response of Leave to the above claims, in evidence on this very thread, is to exaggerate the claims themselves and thereby make them absurd. Eg, "the IMF says the sky will fall in." This then tees up a comment like, "We've survived world wars, Brexit will be no problem."
This might be quite effective. I'm not sure. If you are already genuinely concerned by the potential negative effects of Brexit (as I am, fwiw) then it's irritating to have someone laugh at the idea. Not sure that describes a majority of people though. So this tactic may be working quite well.
I recall that even before the campaign had really started Dan Hannan was tweeting pictures of dinosaurs in the Thames captioned "this is what will happen..."
By the way, there must be a name for the rhetorical device of making your opponent's argument seem ridiculous by exaggerating it isn't there? But what is it? (I don't think it's hyperbole as that (iirc) is properly speaking exaggeration for emphasis whereas this is exaggeration for ridicule.)
The PM's 'WAR' speech being the most obvious example...
Most of the Leave criticism that I've seen so far is either pure ad hominem stuff or unsubstantiated claims of corruption or incompetence together with the aforementioned reductio ad ridiculum tactic. If Leave disagree with a claim, then let's see them rebut it with facts or point out any inconsistencies or spurious assumptions. That's the way it's done in science, but I guess politics is different. 0 -
Please desist.Scott_P said:
Unfortunately for the Brexiteers the question is backwards.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
We currently have freedom of movement and economic prosperity.
So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"0 -
While I obviously disagree with the IMF's assessment, everyone I know- irrespective of their political persuasion- who has worked with Mme Legarde has spoken highly of her.Luckyguy1983 said:A fragrant French lady called Christine
Says the case for Remaining is pristine
She's allegedly criminal
So success has been minimal
We've concluded she's taking the pisstine0 -
There is a very big political problem if Leave do win because while the country will obviously be more than 50% in favour of leaving, but they are only a faction within one party at Westminster with most MPs favouring remaining in the EU and in no particular mood to help the other lot out. The Leave faction doesn't have a coherent set of objectives for the post-EU settlement. So what's going to happen? A period of stasis while the Leavers sort themselves out and elect a new Conservative government and decide what they are going to do next? New elections which Corbyn unusually might win?Wanderer said:
That's what I expect. The Tories will not be able to pass a bill themselves and Labour won't help them out, or will attach impossible (from the Tory point of view) conditions to doing so. One has to keep in mind that there is a huge prize for Labour if the Tories really do split. As in split split.MaxPB said:
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.
And asking the public would be the obvious manoeuvre for a Tory leader trying to prevent that.0 -
You look far less silly when you c&p tweets.Scott_P said:
Unfortunately for the Brexiteers the question is backwards.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
We currently have freedom of movement and economic prosperity.
So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"
Why do you suggest we would be unable to hire a Polish plumber?
0 -
I don't think that's the choice at all, but I think a lot of people would take the money and then regret it later.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
They'd then rationalise their original decision by saying they were duped at the time.0 -
0
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What do you think we've been doing in the EU for all these years?OldKingCole said:
Isn’t that a bit like marriage? Although there you hand over the money as well as not making the decisions.Richard_Nabavi said:
How much are you offering?blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
0 -
John O !JohnO said:
I had thought that it was a Bill Clinton reminder to his own campaign supporters about what was the only issue to fight in the 1992 election.Alanbrooke said:
the original "stupid" was George Bush, the use of the phrase is directed at your opponents leaders.Scott_P said:
It's addressed to people reading the poster.David_Evershed said:The text is addressed to Osborne and Laggard, although Osborne is a voter but not Laggard.
Or voters as they are known
how's the new lifestyle ?0 -
That's the pitch from Brexit.blackburn63 said:Why do you suggest we would be unable to hire a Polish plumber?
It's not the economy, stupid. It's about Sovereignty, which is code for EU migrants. You know, people from Poland, who plumb.0 -
The Remainers are sounding like the bloke who says to a woman:
Would have sex with me for £1m?
I'll think about it
OK in the meantime will you sex with me for £5?
What type of woman do you think I am?
We've already established that, now we're negotiating the price.0 -
In 2015, we gave the EU £8.5 billion, NET!Luckyguy1983 said:
What do you think we've been doing in the EU for all these years?OldKingCole said:
Isn’t that a bit like marriage? Although there you hand over the money as well as not making the decisions.Richard_Nabavi said:
How much are you offering?blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
(Cf. India, £279 million in 2015)0 -
Mr Meeks I hope you feel better soon.AlastairMeeks said:A late addition for this thread:
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles.......0 -
Stick to c&p's mate, you're a fool who publicly advertises his stupidity every day on here.Scott_P said:
That's the pitch from Brexit.blackburn63 said:Why do you suggest we would be unable to hire a Polish plumber?
It's not the economy, stupid. It's about Sovereignty, which is code for EU migrants. You know, people from Poland, who plumb.0 -
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Unless we vote Leave
In which case EVERYTHING DIES0 -
Organisations, whatever the name,
Give their reasons for voting Remain
However it's funny
They all take EU Money
And they're hoping for more of the same.0 -
Great Churchillian quote!blackburn63 said:The Remainers are sounding like the bloke who says to a woman:
Would have sex with me for £1m?
I'll think about it
OK in the meantime will you sex with me for £5?
What type of woman do you think I am?
We've already established that, now we're negotiating the price.0 -
absolutely no idea who Chris Giles is.AlastairMeeks said:A late addition for this thread:
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/731159685622009857
Ant. my forklift truck driver thinks they're all wankers.
I suppose that's a score draw as they both have one vote each.0 -
I want a plumber wot speaks English!blackburn63 said:
You look far less silly when you c&p tweets.Scott_P said:
Unfortunately for the Brexiteers the question is backwards.blackburn63 said:I like this economy v sovereignty thing, its hypothetical but no matter. If somebody offers you money but the price is you would no longer be able to make your own decisions, would you accept the money?
We currently have freedom of movement and economic prosperity.
So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"
Why do you suggest we would be unable to hire a Polish plumber?0 -
"When they attack you personally..."blackburn63 said:Stick to c&p's mate, you're a fool who publicly advertises his stupidity every day on here.
0 -
So, one from Poland thenSunil_Prasannan said:I want a plumber wot speaks English!
0 -
It's very unlikely that the country will be more than 50% in favour of leaving. If 51% vote to leave on a turnout of 60% then 30.6% of the country will have voted to Leave. Bearing in mind that about 70% of MPs, almost all business and professional organisations and the City are opposed to leaving I don't think it is at all certain that we would really leave under such circumstances.FF43 said:
There is a very big political problem if Leave do win because while the country will obviously be more than 50% in favour of leaving,Wanderer said:
That's what I expect. The Tories will not be able to pass a bill themselves and Labour won't help them out, or will attach impossible (from the Tory point of view) conditions to doing so. One has to keep in mind that there is a huge prize for Labour if the Tories really do split. As in split split.MaxPB said:
I think that's why there will have to be a vote, there are enough Tory BOOers who wouldn't vote in favour of a FTA that keeps the four freedoms in the commons and Labour would want to keep the party looking split, even though it will be more like 250 in favour of the FTA vs 80 against compared to the current 160 Leave/170 Remain.Casino_Royale said:I don't think there will be a second vote unless it's impossible to pass it through the Commons.
I don't think the votes are there to push a deal through without consulting the people and putting forward two plans, one of which limiting immigration.
And asking the public would be the obvious manoeuvre for a Tory leader trying to prevent that.0 -
Racist against your own fellow Brits! Is the self-loathing on the REMAIN side so bad?Scott_P said:
So, one from Poland thenSunil_Prasannan said:I want a plumber wot speaks English!
0 -
The French and the Germans all fear
That when the voting is near.
The UK cash cow
Will say F* Off now.
And the EU will then be too dear.
0 -
Ho hum.Scott_P said:
So, one from Poland thenSunil_Prasannan said:I want a plumber wot speaks English!
0 -
Have you been tapping George Osborne's phone?blackburn63 said:The Remainers are sounding like the bloke who says to a woman:
Would have sex with me for £1m?
I'll think about it
OK in the meantime will you sex with me for £5?
What type of woman do you think I am?
We've already established that, now we're negotiating the price.0 -
There was a young man of vote.LeaveSunil_Prasannan said:
Naught but REMAIN scaremongering/bullshittingSouthamObserver said:There was a young Leaver from Rye
Who dismissed Remain's warnings as pie in the sky
He got one hell of a shock
When his work closed the lock
Because Brexit had caused it to die
Who claimed "you have to believe!"
His hat of tinfoil
Made his blood boil
So on PB he began to seeth.0 -
Churchill? I thought I'd made it up :-)Sunil_Prasannan said:
Great Churchillian quote!blackburn63 said:The Remainers are sounding like the bloke who says to a woman:
Would have sex with me for £1m?
I'll think about it
OK in the meantime will you sex with me for £5?
What type of woman do you think I am?
We've already established that, now we're negotiating the price.
0 -
@Casino_Royale Too low key.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Unless we vote Leave
In which case we shall be CONSUMED BY A BLACK HOLE, following which the concept of colour will be meaningless.0
