Just to say, it appears there has been a small swing TO LABOUR in England compared to this point in the last parliament (2011).
That points to a hung parliament in 2020. I'm sure the Tories will carry on being obliviously complacent though.
#rattled
Except I was one of the most pessimistic Labourites on PB in the run-up to the 2015 election
While these results are hardly spectacular for Labour, they simply do not AT ALL support the theory that 2020 is going to be a walkover for the Tories. Remember, they barely scraped over the majority line last year, and they now look to have deteriorated since this point in the last parliament.
There's a difference between "walkover" and "win".
Even Corbyn is talking of "holding on". Benn says there's a long way to go, etc, etc.
What do you define as "win"? The Tories are still favourites to be biggest party, but the swing from 2011 points to a hung parliament with the Tories having to rely on the Lib Dems or Northern Ireland parties to survive.
Of course we could also go back to the 1959 Parliament , and point out that despite having already been in power for 9/10 years the Tories managed to make significant gains from Labour at the local elections of 1960 and 1961. Despite that , Labour did win the 1964 election!
Re: Scotland - in the north-east around the Aberdeenshire west gain the Tories are second in nearly every seat and most would be winnable if the SNP falter over the next 4 years. The performance is really quite remarkable and even more so against the background of difficult economic times and the divisions over Europe.
It was the same across Angus and into Perthshire. Big swings against the SNP but not enough to topple what had been very large majorities. This was on a brilliant night for the Tories which they might struggle to repeat but there is a significant swathe of long ex Tory seats in which they are once again well placed to gain if the SNP trip up substantially.
Hopefully, it will also break the taboo of saying you vote Tory. That will help a lot.
Re: Scotland - in the north-east around the Aberdeenshire west gain the Tories are second in nearly every seat and most would be winnable if the SNP falter over the next 4 years. The performance is really quite remarkable and even more so against the background of difficult economic times and the divisions over Europe.
It was the same across Angus and into Perthshire. Big swings against the SNP but not enough to topple what had been very large majorities. This was on a brilliant night for the Tories which they might struggle to repeat but there is a significant swathe of long ex Tory seats in which they are once again well placed to gain if the SNP trip up substantially.
Look at Cameron's approval ratings in Scotland though. Westminster Tories still have a long way to go if they want to see a revival at a UK election in Scotland.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
I do love the moralising of the right...
Anyway. If a woman wants to wear the Hijab then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear one thats wrong. I am supportive of cultural rules and preferences where they are by choice - whether thats orthodox Jews wearing black or women in a burkha or BA check-in staff wearing a crucifix.
But not where its forced and especially not where a patriach demands it. This is Britain. People are free to religious expression but not free to dump basic human rights.
If a woman wants to wear clothes then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear clothes that's wrong.
If you are brought up that it is both meet and proper to where one then where's your free choice?
When I lived in Brum in the 80s in a strongly Moslem area (Sparkbrook) you literally never saw women in hijabs or burqas. Now it is common. That says to me it is a cultural choice much more than the result of repressive societal pressure. The interesting and worrying issue is why such choices are being made.
The nature of Islam in the UK has changed. As the Muslim population has grown, it no longer needs to interact so closely with the rest of society - therefore it assimilates less with it. It can create its own environment.
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Well done. In Scotland Edinburgh Western was one of the most stunning of the night. I really did not see that coming. That and Fife NE, as a matter of arithmetic is what denied Nicola her majority.
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
I do love the moralising of the right...
Anyway. If a woman wants to wear the Hijab then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear one thats wrong. I am supportive of cultural rules and preferences where they are by choice - whether thats orthodox Jews wearing black or women in a burkha or BA check-in staff wearing a crucifix.
But not where its forced and especially not where a patriach demands it. This is Britain. People are free to religious expression but not free to dump basic human rights.
If a woman wants to wear clothes then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear clothes that's wrong.
If you are brought up that it is both meet and proper to where one then where's your free choice?
When I lived in Brum in the 80s in a strongly Moslem area (Sparkbrook) you literally never saw women in hijabs or burqas. Now it is common. That says to me it is a cultural choice much more than the result of repressive societal pressure. The interesting and worrying issue is why such choices are being made.
No, the reason is because those immigrants from the Indian sub continent in the 60's and 70's followed sufi, naqshbandi Islam. But since the 80's Saudi and other Gulf states have aggressively promoted Salafi/Wahhabi Islam to Muslim communities everywhere be it Europe, Indonesia, Madrassas in Pakistan & Bangladesh etc etc.
What has happened in the last 30 years is a shift within the Sunni Islamic world to a stricter more conservative brand of Islam. Which ironically is more popular among the youth than for their parents. So young Muslim women now wear hijab and increasingly niqab which was not common as you say in the 60's. The "moderate" sufi/naqshbandi Islam is shrinking whilst salafi/ wahhabi/deobandi Islam is growing.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
The people who vote for them in droves are increasingly the people who want women to be second class citizens. That's Labour's problem.
Evidence please? Or is this the usual 'fruitcake' propaganda that is spouted out on right-wing blogs like this...
What is the evidence for the claim this is a right wing blog?
Has Our Genial Host switched allegiance away from Lib Dem to Conservative?
What I meant to say is that the comments section is very-right. Our Genial Host is always first-class and he talks a LOT of sense.
It would interesting to note the political leaning of the various posters but there is a significant right-wing wing bias.
It leans Right But Not As Much As Some think I Feel. All sorts of non tory opinions are interpreted as right wing at times even when from labour or other self identified lefties. Disdain for Corbyn from some lefties adds to the impression. So while it is rightist, on some issues in particular, not oppressively so.
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
And a long history of being an apologist for extremists and those who advocate violence. Indeed he has advocated violence himself.
Interesting comment from Tom Clark on the Guardian blog:
The one safe psephological assumption about Corbyn’s socialist programme had seemed to be that it would go down better in the disgruntled heartlands, rather than in the decisive market town marginals. Instead, however, Labour has surrendered the traditionally rock-solid Rhondda to Plaid in Wales, and leaked votes in the north to Ukip, although – crucially – not normally enough to lose councillors. But at the same time, it actually held up far better in the south, in particular, than it was expecting. The old 1980s southern discomfort narrative was dusted down before these elections, but it has been defied as Labour held its own, or even advanced, in Crawley, Plymouth and Southampton.
As a result, while Corbyn’s overall vote share is indeed appreciably down on what Ed Miliband managed in his best year, 2012, his tally of seats is not so different. So Corbyn has indeed shed votes, but against all expectations he seems to have a knack for shedding them where he can best afford to. Labour’s base is even flakier than we thought, but it is more widely competitive too. The upshot? The next election gets a little bit harder to call.
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
I don't think he is as clever as Ed Balls (who I, almost uniquely amongst Tories, really liked) but he is a lot cleverer than Corbyn and, as you say, plays the politics game better. There were strong rumours that he was gearing up for a coup but I think with Khan to come Corbyn has done enough to remain impregnable for now.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
I do love the moralising of the right...
Anyway. If a woman wants to wear the Hijab then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear one thats wrong. I am supportive of cultural rules and preferences where they are by choice - whether thats orthodox Jews wearing black or women in a burkha or BA check-in staff wearing a crucifix.
But not where its forced and especially not where a patriach demands it. This is Britain. People are free to religious expression but not free to dump basic human rights.
If a woman wants to wear clothes then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear clothes that's wrong.
If you are brought up that it is both meet and proper to where one then where's your free choice?
When I lived in Brum in the 80s in a strongly Moslem area (Sparkbrook) you literally never saw women in hijabs or burqas. Now it is common. That says to me it is a cultural choice much more than the result of repressive societal pressure. The interesting and worrying issue is why such choices are being made.
The nature of Islam in the UK has changed. As the Muslim population has grown, it no longer needs to interact so closely with the rest of society - therefore it assimilates less with it. It can create its own environment.
Where I lived it was almost entirely Moslem back then too. I think the younger people are a lot more radical than their parents were and probably are.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
The people who vote for them in droves are increasingly the people who want women to be second class citizens. That's Labour's problem.
Evidence please? Or is this the usual 'fruitcake' propaganda that is spouted out on right-wing blogs like this...
What is the evidence for the claim this is a right wing blog?
Has Our Genial Host switched allegiance away from Lib Dem to Conservative?
What I meant to say is that the comments section is very-right. Our Genial Host is always first-class and he talks a LOT of sense.
It would interesting to note the political leaning of the various posters but there is a significant right-wing wing bias.
It leans Right But Not As Much As Some think I Feel. All sorts of non tory opinions are interpreted as right wing at times even when from labour or other self identified lefties. Disdain for Corbyn from some lefties adds to the impression. So while it is rightist, on some issues in particular, not oppressively so.
Trust me! I'm no fan of Corbyn!
Politics like football is about winning and Corbyn is a born loser...
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
Liam fondly remembered his knee-capping, "John was very jovial as the chap in the balaclava pulled the trigger."
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
I do love the moralising of the right...
Anyway. If a woman wants to wear the Hijab then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear one thats wrong. I am supportive of cultural rules and preferences where they are by choice - whether thats orthodox Jews wearing black or women in a burkha or BA check-in staff wearing a crucifix.
But not where its forced and especially not where a patriach demands it. This is Britain. People are free to religious expression but not free to dump basic human rights.
If a woman wants to wear clothes then great. If a woman feels she has no choice but to wear clothes that's wrong.
If you are brought up that it is both meet and proper to where one then where's your free choice?
When I lived in Brum in the 80s in a strongly Moslem area (Sparkbrook) you literally never saw women in hijabs or burqas. Now it is common. That says to me it is a cultural choice much more than the result of repressive societal pressure. The interesting and worrying issue is why such choices are being made.
No, the reason is because those immigrants from the Indian sub continent in the 60's and 70's followed sufi, naqshbandi Islam. But since the 80's Saudi and other Gulf states have aggressively promoted Salafi/Wahhabi Islam to Muslim communities everywhere be it Europe, Indonesia, Madrassas in Pakistan & Bangladesh etc etc.
What has happened in the last 30 years is a shift within the Sunni Islamic world to a stricter more conservative brand of Islam. Which ironically is more popular among the youth than for their parents. So young Muslim women now wear hijab and increasingly niqab which was not common as you say in the 60's. The "moderate" sufi/naqshbandi Islam is shrinking whilst salafi/ wahhabi/deobandi Islam is growing.
Given the track record of muslims living alongside people of other cultures, I don;t think I'm going to accept live and let live lectures from you, sunshine.
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
That's the exact impression I Get from him indeed. Even charming.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
It doesn't matter whether you say Islam has no place in Britain, it's here and its not going anywhere.
And who exactly gets to decide "our rules and societal norms"? Muslims who are born and raised in Britain can live by their own social rules as long as they dont break the law. They too are British and will not have norms imposed on them that are not compliant with Islam, their faith.
They will have no choice. We have an overwhelming consensus in Britain that everyone should be treated equally and that those who do not accept that basic principle or act against it should be dealt with under the law. The fact that a tiny minority might not accept that is beside the point. If they wish to continue to live in Britain then they will have to accept it just as we all do. The law of the country must always take precedence over a religious belief.
And Lewis Baston from the ERS with the first shot at a national equivalent vote estimate:
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
Is that still common among golf clubs? (I have no idea of the answer, other than remembering hearing bits and piece of lots of the famous clubs have changed their rules FINALLY).
What about schools? There are still plenty of single-sex schools about - my own son goes to one. Are they extremist?
how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with?
At one point in history, Europeans and Christians used to tell Africans and others that God had made the white man "superior" to other races - look up William Tappan Thompson for an example.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
... they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
And yet people still vote for them in droves. Rather depressing.
The people who vote for them in droves are increasingly the people who want women to be second class citizens. That's Labour's problem.
Evidence please? Or is this the usual 'fruitcake' propaganda that is spouted out on right-wing blogs like this...
What is the evidence for the claim this is a right wing blog?
Has Our Genial Host switched allegiance away from Lib Dem to Conservative?
What I meant to say is that the comments section is very-right. Our Genial Host is always first-class and he talks a LOT of sense.
It would interesting to note the political leaning of the various posters but there is a significant right-wing wing bias.
It leans Right But Not As Much As Some think I Feel. All sorts of non tory opinions are interpreted as right wing at times even when from labour or other self identified lefties. Disdain for Corbyn from some lefties adds to the impression. So while it is rightist, on some issues in particular, not oppressively so.
Trust me! I'm no fan of Corbyn!
Politics like football is about winning and Corbyn is a born loser...
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Congratulation Mr tpfkar, on what was I'm sure a well-deserved victory.
@LadPolitics: If Zac loses by about 9%, that's similar to London Labour advantage in 2015 GE. So, not clear he was as terrible a candidate as suggested.
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
That's the exact impression I Get from him indeed. Even charming.
Ed Balls was never a supporter of the IRA and I'd say his brain is probably a lot sharper than McDonnell's too. That Mao red book stunt was not the action of a politically smart operator. But he is clearly a lot more polished and presentable than Corby. Though that is a pretty low bar.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
It doesn't matter whether you say Islam has no place in Britain, it's here and its not going anywhere.
And who exactly gets to decide "our rules and societal norms"? Muslims who are born and raised in Britain can live by their own social rules as long as they dont break the law. They too are British and will not have norms imposed on them that are not compliant with Islam, their faith.
They will have no choice. We have an overwhelming consensus in Britain that everyone should be treated equally and that those who do not accept that basic principle or act against it should be dealt with under the law. The fact that a tiny minority might not accept that is beside the point. If they wish to continue to live in Britain then they will have to accept it just as we all do. The law of the country must always take precedence over a religious belief.
But the things that were described as "appalling subjugation of women", (obeying husbands, not wearing pants, not travelling more than 48miles without a male), are not against the law. if Muslim women want to follow this advice given by the mosque, its up to them. if they want to be submissive in their marriage , again that is their choice and none of this is against the law.
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Well done. In Scotland Edinburgh Western was one of the most stunning of the night. I really did not see that coming. That and Fife NE, as a matter of arithmetic is what denied Nicola her majority.
The amount of anti-SNP tactical voting in Edinburgh was remarkable. The Lib Dems, Conservatives and Labour all managed to win a seat by persuading voters of other Unionist parties to switch. To the Lib Dems in the case of Edinburgh Western but mainly AWAY from the Lib Dems in the last two seats.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
It doesn't matter whether you say Islam has no place in Britain, it's here and its not going anywhere.
And who exactly gets to decide "our rules and societal norms"? Muslims who are born and raised in Britain can live by their own social rules as long as they dont break the law. They too are British and will not have norms imposed on them that are not compliant with Islam, their faith.
They will have no choice. We have an overwhelming consensus in Britain that everyone should be treated equally and that those who do not accept that basic principle or act against it should be dealt with under the law. The fact that a tiny minority might not accept that is beside the point. If they wish to continue to live in Britain then they will have to accept it just as we all do. The law of the country must always take precedence over a religious belief.
Is it an overwhelming consensus? It was. I'm not sure it is now.
And Lewis Baston from the ERS with the first shot at a national equivalent vote estimate:
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
It doesn't matter whether you say Islam has no place in Britain, it's here and its not going anywhere.
And who exactly gets to decide "our rules and societal norms"? Muslims who are born and raised in Britain can live by their own social rules as long as they dont break the law. They too are British and will not have norms imposed on them that are not compliant with Islam, their faith.
They will have no choice. We have an overwhelming consensus in Britain that everyone should be treated equally and that those who do not accept that basic principle or act against it should be dealt with under the law. The fact that a tiny minority might not accept that is beside the point. If they wish to continue to live in Britain then they will have to accept it just as we all do. The law of the country must always take precedence over a religious belief.
But the things that were described as "appalling subjugation of women", (obeying husbands, not wearing pants, not travelling more than 48miles without a male), are not against the law. if Muslim women want to follow this advice given by the mosque, its up to them. if they want to be submissive in their marriage , again that is their choice and none of this is against the law.
Ruth is a goddess. That is all we know and all we need to know.
It's a long way off but how might the tories' Scottish boost translate into Westminster seats Mr L - an extra one or two?
Good chance of 3 more I would say. 2 more in the borders, one each side of Mundell and the Eastwood equivalent where the Labour vote will get squeezed even tighter now it is clear who the Unionist is. Edinburgh and Aberdeenshire look a lot trickier.
But Eastwood was close to being a three-way split and is the SNP seat most vulnerable to Labour based on 2015 results. Apparently there is also a strong Jewish community there which might have reacted to Livingstone's ramblings.Ceteris paribus Labour tends to do a bit better at Westminster elections than Holyrood. Having managed 22.5% in the constituency vote yesterday surely makes it likely that had it been a Westminster election Labour would have reached 25%.
how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with?
At one point in history, Europeans and Christians used to tell Africans and others that God had made the white man "superior" to other races - look up William Tappan Thompson for an example.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
... they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
Show me the evidence that Muslim women IN BRITAIN are experiencing life as you describe it.
edit: and by that i mean large numbers in a systematic way. Women of all faiths and none suffer abuse at the hands of men thats not the issue here.
Re: Scotland - in the north-east around the Aberdeenshire west gain the Tories are second in nearly every seat and most would be winnable if the SNP falter over the next 4 years. The performance is really quite remarkable and even more so against the background of difficult economic times and the divisions over Europe.
It was the same across Angus and into Perthshire. Big swings against the SNP but not enough to topple what had been very large majorities. This was on a brilliant night for the Tories which they might struggle to repeat but there is a significant swathe of long ex Tory seats in which they are once again well placed to gain if the SNP trip up substantially.
Look at Cameron's approval ratings in Scotland though. Westminster Tories still have a long way to go if they want to see a revival at a UK election in Scotland.
I'm sure they'll eventually regain the courage to put Conservative on their campaign literature.
And Lewis Baston from the ERS with the first shot at a national equivalent vote estimate:
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
So, Labour on course for a shellacking in 2020.
"The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot."
Still four years for Carry On Corbyn to work on that.
how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with?
At one point in history, Europeans and Christians used to tell Africans and others that God had made the white man "superior" to other races - look up William Tappan Thompson for an example.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
... they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
Show me the evidence that Muslim women IN BRITAIN are experiencing life as you describe it.
Show me evidence that where your system prevails over our secular law they are NOT experiencing life as Bev C describes it.
Has anyone done a comparative turnout analysis between council elections of 2012 and 2016?
My suspicion is that even few people have voted this year - meaning that none of the parties are enthusing supporters. Which is not good for any of them.
2020 comes down to who can get support out.
Corbyn's claim to the leadership all comes down to the size of his mandate. But that mandate is meaningless if he can't convert that to popular support. And there is no evidence on the votes cast yesterday that he is bringing new people into politics.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
It doesn't matter whether you say Islam has no place in Britain, it's here and its not going anywhere.
And who exactly gets to decide "our rules and societal norms"? Muslims who are born and raised in Britain can live by their own social rules as long as they dont break the law. They too are British and will not have norms imposed on them that are not compliant with Islam, their faith.
They will have no choice. We have an overwhelming consensus in Britain that everyone should be treated equally and that those who do not accept that basic principle or act against it should be dealt with under the law. The fact that a tiny minority might not accept that is beside the point. If they wish to continue to live in Britain then they will have to accept it just as we all do. The law of the country must always take precedence over a religious belief.
But the things that were described as "appalling subjugation of women", (obeying husbands, not wearing pants, not travelling more than 48miles without a male), are not against the law. if Muslim women want to follow this advice given by the mosque, its up to them. if they want to be submissive in their marriage , again that is their choice and none of this is against the law.
Not wearing pants?!
I would have a no pants rule in my flat, I fear my partner would just ignore it though.
Q: Are the good results for the Scottish Conservatives and the ok results for Scottish LDs due to their efforts or is it more a result of the fall of SLAB?
And Lewis Baston from the ERS with the first shot at a national equivalent vote estimate:
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
So, Labour on course for a shellacking in 2020.
Corbyn stops the trend of decline since 2005 and Labour is finally in a position to move forward...?
Ruth is a goddess. That is all we know and all we need to know.
It's a long way off but how might the tories' Scottish boost translate into Westminster seats Mr L - an extra one or two?
Good chance of 3 more I would say. 2 more in the borders, one each side of Mundell and the Eastwood equivalent where the Labour vote will get squeezed even tighter now it is clear who the Unionist is. Edinburgh and Aberdeenshire look a lot trickier.
But Eastwood was close to being a three-way split and is the SNP seat most vulnerable to Labour based on 2015 results. Apparently there is also a strong Jewish community there which might have reacted to Livingstone's ramblings.Ceteris paribus Labour tends to do a bit better at Westminster elections than Holyrood. Having managed 22.5% in the constituency vote yesterday surely makes it likely that had it been a Westminster election Labour would have reached 25%.
Jim Murphy did comparatively well in that seat because he got a lot of tactical Tory support. Last night showed what happened when that stopped.
So much of Scottish politics at the moment is about identifying who the opposition to the SNP is. Once that becomes clear we see strong tactical voting to the challenger's advantage. With the right candidate the Labour vote in that seat will be very soft. The problem for Scotland is the huge swathe of seats where Labour was previously dominant, is now collapsing and there is no alternative. These seats look very safe indeed.
how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with?
At one point in history, Europeans and Christians used to tell Africans and others that God had made the white man "superior" to other races - look up William Tappan Thompson for an example.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
... they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
Show me the evidence that Muslim women IN BRITAIN are experiencing life as you describe it.
Google it yourself ... it will not take you too long, but to get you started
"Domestic violence affects women of all cultures, religions and ethnic backgrounds. Preliminary research suggests that 10% of Muslims experience or have experienced physical violence."
I thought McDonnell dealt with the memo leak with deftness and aplomb. I don't like him - and yet I can't help quite liking him.
It's funny, I don't find disliking him difficult at all. But he is way more skilled and polished than Corbyn. He even looks vaguely serious in a suit.
Corbyn is an austere idealist: if you tell him his views are unpopular, he says he's sorry to hear that and patiently repeats them, extending the story. McDonnell is an astute politician, with all the good and bad things people associate with that. If you tell him his views are unpopular, he changes the subject to something you'll agree with. He reminds me quite strongly of Ed Balls - the same kind of personal jovial affability with a sharp brain.
That's the exact impression I Get from him indeed. Even charming.
Ed Balls was never a supporter of the IRA and I'd say his brain is probably a lot sharper than McDonnell's too. That Mao red book stunt was not the action of a politically smart operator. But he is clearly a lot more polished and presentable than Corby. Though that is a pretty low bar.
Oh, I think he's got far worse views - but superficially he comes across better even though I know he shouldn't.
For those who missed it...so,much for ken's claim last Saturday he wouldn't make any more comments on this. I can only conclude he just can't accept that people might think he is wrong about something.
Interesting comment from Tom Clark on the Guardian blog:
The one safe psephological assumption about Corbyn’s socialist programme had seemed to be that it would go down better in the disgruntled heartlands, rather than in the decisive market town marginals. Instead, however, Labour has surrendered the traditionally rock-solid Rhondda to Plaid in Wales, and leaked votes in the north to Ukip, although – crucially – not normally enough to lose councillors. But at the same time, it actually held up far better in the south, in particular, than it was expecting. The old 1980s southern discomfort narrative was dusted down before these elections, but it has been defied as Labour held its own, or even advanced, in Crawley, Plymouth and Southampton.
As a result, while Corbyn’s overall vote share is indeed appreciably down on what Ed Miliband managed in his best year, 2012, his tally of seats is not so different. So Corbyn has indeed shed votes, but against all expectations he seems to have a knack for shedding them where he can best afford to. Labour’s base is even flakier than we thought, but it is more widely competitive too. The upshot? The next election gets a little bit harder to call.
That's a rather positive spin. Another way of putting it would be 'Labour has reached its floor in the South, and really cannot fall another further there, but is now leaking votes in the North to UKIP'.
And Lewis Baston from the ERS with the first shot at a national equivalent vote estimate:
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
So, Labour on course for a shellacking in 2020.
Corbyn stops the trend of decline since 2005 and Labour is finally in a position to move forward...?
Ironically Cameron and Osborne's blunder may have staved off the day of departure for Corbyn.
Then it's not a blunder, is it?
They stumbled into it as a consequence of the referendum timing and their decision to front the campaigns etc etc. But delaying Corbyn's replacement may not work out as a good thing if the replacement has a "honeymoon" uplift at the GE.
how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with?
At one point in history, Europeans and Christians used to tell Africans and others that God had made the white man "superior" to other races - look up William Tappan Thompson for an example.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
... they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
Show me the evidence that Muslim women IN BRITAIN are experiencing life as you describe it.
Google it yourself ... it will not take you too long, but to get you started
"Domestic violence affects women of all cultures, religions and ethnic backgrounds. Preliminary research suggests that 10% of Muslims experience or have experienced physical violence."
There you have it, Muslim women are no more likely to experience domestic violence than other women. So Islam does not inflict "appalling subjugation on women", which is what i originally responded to.
@LadPolitics: If Zac loses by about 9%, that's similar to London Labour advantage in 2015 GE. So, not clear he was as terrible a candidate as suggested.
That depends. If khan is a poor candidate, as many believe, then making no headway against him would mean goldsmith did poorly.
For those who missed it...so,much for ken's claim last Saturday he wouldn't make any more comments on this. I can only conclude he just can't accept that people might think he is wrong about something.
Q: Are the good results for the Scottish Conservatives and the ok results for Scottish LDs due to their efforts or is it more a result of the fall of SLAB?
Aren't all wins ultimately down to the fall of their rivals?
The "Louden Tavern" is opposite Ibrox. Do keep up divvie ..
So you mis-identified the picture I posted of the "Original Louden Tavern" in the east end as the one beside Ibrox? How embarrassing. Still, you were the roaster who thought the word 'Hun' had been made illegal, so anything goes I guess.
Muslim women have every right to be totally obedient and subservient to their husbands..menfolk..Mullahs..If they like being told what to wear..to cover their entire bodies when outdoors..be told how far they can travel..why should the west try to alter their stupidity....
Q: Are the good results for the Scottish Conservatives and the ok results for Scottish LDs due to their efforts or is it more a result of the fall of SLAB?
Aren't all wins ultimately down to the fall of their rivals?
Just to say, it appears there has been a small swing TO LABOUR in England compared to this point in the last parliament (2011).
That points to a hung parliament in 2020. I'm sure the Tories will carry on being obliviously complacent though.
#rattled
Except I was one of the most pessimistic Labourites on PB in the run-up to the 2015 election
While these results are hardly spectacular for Labour, they simply do not AT ALL support the theory that 2020 is going to be a walkover for the Tories. Remember, they barely scraped over the majority line last year, and they now look to have deteriorated since this point in the last parliament.
There's a difference between "walkover" and "win".
Even Corbyn is talking of "holding on". Benn says there's a long way to go, etc, etc.
What do you define as "win"? The Tories are still favourites to be biggest party, but the swing from 2011 points to a hung parliament with the Tories having to rely on the Lib Dems or Northern Ireland parties to survive.
Of course we could also go back to the 1959 Parliament , and point out that despite having already been in power for 9/10 years the Tories managed to make significant gains from Labour at the local elections of 1960 and 1961. Despite that , Labour did win the 1964 election!
Would you like some more straws to clutch?
How many other opportunities would you like to display your ignorance of electoral precedents?. You appear very happy to align yourself with media commentators who by and large do not have a clue.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
In fact, non-Muslims have single-sex schools, colleges, and loads of single-sex clubs and societies. I see no reason why they should be outlawed. If people wish to socialise with members of the same sex, or believe their child will benefit from a single sex education, I say let them.
Ruth is a goddess. That is all we know and all we need to know.
It's a long way off but how might the tories' Scottish boost translate into Westminster seats Mr L - an extra one or two?
Good chance of 3 more I would say. 2 more in the borders, one each side of Mundell and the Eastwood equivalent where the Labour vote will get squeezed even tighter now it is clear who the Unionist is. Edinburgh and Aberdeenshire look a lot trickier.
But Eastwood was close to being a three-way split and is the SNP seat most vulnerable to Labour based on 2015 results. Apparently there is also a strong Jewish community there which might have reacted to Livingstone's ramblings.Ceteris paribus Labour tends to do a bit better at Westminster elections than Holyrood. Having managed 22.5% in the constituency vote yesterday surely makes it likely that had it been a Westminster election Labour would have reached 25%.
Jim Murphy did comparatively well in that seat because he got a lot of tactical Tory support. Last night showed what happened when that stopped.
So much of Scottish politics at the moment is about identifying who the opposition to the SNP is. Once that becomes clear we see strong tactical voting to the challenger's advantage. With the right candidate the Labour vote in that seat will be very soft. The problem for Scotland is the huge swathe of seats where Labour was previously dominant, is now collapsing and there is no alternative. These seats look very safe indeed.
I wonder what the overall second place tally is - probably still Labour ahead but there are quite a lot of Tory second places now and some of them very good 'seconds'.
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Unfortunately John O doesn't know how John O is doing as our count isn't taking place until tomorrow!!
Hope this is not a portend of my eventual fate, but the long-serving leader (and friend) of another Surrey Borough was defeated 2-1 by a Resiodents' Association candidate. Turned a shade of grey on hearing that.
After boundary changes, my ward is highly marginal and so well, who knows......Anyway I have had a good innings.
Just to say, it appears there has been a small swing TO LABOUR in England compared to this point in the last parliament (2011).
That points to a hung parliament in 2020. I'm sure the Tories will carry on being obliviously complacent though.
#rattled
Except I was one of the most pessimistic Labourites on PB in the run-up to the 2015 election
While these results are hardly spectacular for Labour, they simply do not AT ALL support the theory that 2020 is going to be a walkover for the Tories. Remember, they barely scraped over the majority line last year, and they now look to have deteriorated since this point in the last parliament.
There's a difference between "walkover" and "win".
Even Corbyn is talking of "holding on". Benn says there's a long way to go, etc, etc.
What do you define as "win"? The Tories are still favourites to be biggest party, but the swing from 2011 points to a hung parliament with the Tories having to rely on the Lib Dems or Northern Ireland parties to survive.
Of course we could also go back to the 1959 Parliament , and point out that despite having already been in power for 9/10 years the Tories managed to make significant gains from Labour at the local elections of 1960 and 1961. Despite that , Labour did win the 1964 election!
Would you like some more straws to clutch?
How many other opportunities would you like to display your ignorance of electoral precedents?. You appear very happy to align yourself with media commentators who by and large do not have a clue.
Are you really saying John Curtice and Michael Thrasher do not have a clue?
@LadPolitics: If Zac loses by about 9%, that's similar to London Labour advantage in 2015 GE. So, not clear he was as terrible a candidate as suggested.
That depends. If khan is a poor candidate, as many believe, then making no headway against him would mean goldsmith did poorly.
Neither are great candidates and Zac was always going to struggle compared to Boris. I think he's done as well as could be expected. I haven't seen any updates but not sure Labour is doing all that mightily well in London.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
Absolutely.
Schools too? My son, who goes to the local boys' grammar school, would be delighted if the extremist practise of segregating schools by gender could also be abolished.
The "Louden Tavern" is opposite Ibrox. Do keep up divvie ..
So you mis-identified the picture I posted of the "Original Louden Tavern" in the east end as the one beside Ibrox? How embarrassing. Still, you were the roaster who thought the word 'Hun' had been made illegal, so anything goes I guess.
The SNP's pet charity has deemed the word "abusive and sectarian".
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
In fact, non-Muslims have single-sex schools, colleges, and loads of single-sex clubs and societies. I see no reason why they should be outlawed. If people wish to socialise with members of the same sex, or believe their child will benefit from a single sex education, I say let them.
Half the cabinet including the Prime Minister and Chancellor and the Royal family attended single sex schools are they not adhering to "British values"??
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Unfortunately John O doesn't know how John O is doing as our count isn't taking place until tomorrow!!
Hope this is not a portend of my eventual fate, but the long-serving leader (and friend) of another Surrey Borough was defeated 2-1 by a Resiodents' Association candidate. Turned a shade of grey on hearing that.
After boundary changes, my ward is highly marginal and so well, who knows......Anyway I have had a good innings.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
In fact, non-Muslims have single-sex schools, colleges, and loads of single-sex clubs and societies. I see no reason why they should be outlawed. If people wish to socialise with members of the same sex, or believe their child will benefit from a single sex education, I say let them.
Regarding schools I think the biggest fuss was over girls appearing to be treated as second class pupils in mixed schools, forced to sit at the back of the class etc.
Q: Are the good results for the Scottish Conservatives and the ok results for Scottish LDs due to their efforts or is it more a result of the fall of SLAB?
A bit of both really, but the message of "Tories are the true unionists" seems to have really cut through. If the next 5 years in Scotland are going to be based on more traditional left/right politics it will also help the Tories since the SNP have taken up the centre left position that Salmond avoided so very well.
Blinking hackers JohnO my old sparring comrade..."I have had a good innings..." sounds like you are being packed off to the nearest nursing home. I'm sure there's life in the old dog yet. Trotsky sends a comradely bark too for the best of luck.
I was re-elected to my council seat last night and almost doubled my majority. Very relieved as the Tories were working so hard and the ward was lost badly last year. Tories were targeting 6 gains (3 from Lab, 3 from LD and lost every one.
Seems like green shoots for Lib Dems but still desert areas where local party has disappeared, but this is the first election night in a long time that hasn't been crushing,so I guess that's progress.
Hope other Peebies who've been up for election have done well.
Unfortunately John O doesn't know how John O is doing as our count isn't taking place until tomorrow!!
Hope this is not a portend of my eventual fate, but the long-serving leader (and friend) of another Surrey Borough was defeated 2-1 by a Resiodents' Association candidate. Turned a shade of grey on hearing that.
After boundary changes, my ward is highly marginal and so well, who knows......Anyway I have had a good innings.
I would question the Nick Palmer line that Labour is holding up surprisingly well in the South. In the Havant Borough two seats have switched from Labour to UKIP and in Portsmouth (which is still being counted last I checked) Labour was admitting that it was losing a lot of votes to UKIP.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
Interesting to see left wingers down thread saying we should take a "live and let live" approach to women being second class citizens in their own homes. How far the left has fallen.
whats the alternative? how are you going to enforce some mythical "equality" that Islamophobes use as a metaphorical stick to beat Muslims with? Do you really want the state to interfere in people's marriages? why do you assume that muslim women are weak?
Gender segregation is a fundamental part of Islam because of it's strict moral codes. Its not extremism its mainstream Islam. Trevor Philips was 100% accurate when he said Islam will not change and Muslims are different to other minority groups and they will never "integrate" in the way you want them to. Just accept it and live and let live.
If that actually were the case then it has no place in Britain.
I do not actually accept your definitions so and do consider gender segregation to be extremism. It doesn't matter whether it is mainstream islam or not, it is extremist as far as what is acceptable in British society. We should not change our rules and our societal norms to tolerate religious extremism.
I agree, but doesn't that also apply to golf clubs etc that refuse to allow women members?
In fact, non-Muslims have single-sex schools, colleges, and loads of single-sex clubs and societies. I see no reason why they should be outlawed. If people wish to socialise with members of the same sex, or believe their child will benefit from a single sex education, I say let them.
Half the cabinet including the Prime Minister and Chancellor and the Royal family attended single sex schools are they not adhering to "British values"??
Comments
Lab gain 2 from Respect 1 from Con
LDem gain 1 from Respect
Ind gain 2 from Respect 1 from Lab 1 from Con
They lost seats, lose their overall majority and yet can claim they won......
shurely schome mishtake?
Lab 50,915
Con 18,797
LD 10,060
Lab hold
Turnout 17.7%
https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/status/728544517448736769
Comical Emily Thornberry has emerged as the star of Labour's election night.
What has happened in the last 30 years is a shift within the Sunni Islamic world to a stricter more conservative brand of Islam. Which ironically is more popular among the youth than for their parents. So young Muslim women now wear hijab and increasingly niqab which was not common as you say in the 60's. The "moderate" sufi/naqshbandi Islam is shrinking whilst salafi/ wahhabi/deobandi Islam is growing.
That is not affable. That is dangerous.
They won. Just not as much as they wanted, and the direction of travel is something they need to keep an eye on.
The one safe psephological assumption about Corbyn’s socialist programme had seemed to be that it would go down better in the disgruntled heartlands, rather than in the decisive market town marginals. Instead, however, Labour has surrendered the traditionally rock-solid Rhondda to Plaid in Wales, and leaked votes in the north to Ukip, although – crucially – not normally enough to lose councillors. But at the same time, it actually held up far better in the south, in particular, than it was expecting. The old 1980s southern discomfort narrative was dusted down before these elections, but it has been defied as Labour held its own, or even advanced, in Crawley, Plymouth and Southampton.
As a result, while Corbyn’s overall vote share is indeed appreciably down on what Ed Miliband managed in his best year, 2012, his tally of seats is not so different. So Corbyn has indeed shed votes, but against all expectations he seems to have a knack for shedding them where he can best afford to. Labour’s base is even flakier than we thought, but it is more widely competitive too. The upshot? The next election gets a little bit harder to call.
Politics like football is about winning and Corbyn is a born loser...
• The Labour brand, and Labour organisation, are still worth a lot. Labour has had a number of improbable escapes from losing councils across the south of England, most notably Southampton where the party held its ground, swapping a white working-class ward (Sholing) for a gain of the middle-class ward containing the university (Portswood) for the first time since 1981. Labour has been lucky with the electoral system in holding on to council seats it “should” have lost on the general trend.
• Compared to 2012, Labour has done rather better in the south than in the north – the swing in Southampton being 1.5 to Labour while in Bury it was 6.3 to the Conservatives. On a comparable basis of swing since the 2015 local elections, Labour would miss the apparently easy target of Bury North but gain the much harder Reading East.
• The swing from Labour to Conservative since Ed Miliband’s high point of 2012 seems to be about 2-3%, equivalent to a dead level result in national share of the vote or a tiny Labour lead. This is pretty similar to 2011 and 2014.
The interpretation of Christianity needed to change and it did. Perhaps Islam needs to do the same and adapt to a more modern world. Religion should never be used for the subjugation of others, but sadly it frequently has been.
Why not? The state already does. Harrassment, assault, martial rape, etc are already illegal. Being married does not absolve you from obeying the law.
Because there is plenty of evidence that a significant number are kept isolated, uneducated and controlled. There are plenty of muslim women turning up dead or beaten or removed abroad and forced into unwanted marriages.
No.
Why should any women accept that her lot in life is to be a third-rate punch bag, to be beaten, raped, traded or killed for nothing more than wanting her own freedom?
http://www.empireofthekop.com/2016/05/05/video-roberto-firmino-basically-ended-soldados-career-with-this-filthy-turn-tonight/
https://twitter.com/hillaryclinton/status/728007966629060608
Q: Where is its best interviewer - Andrew Neil?
A: Posting tweets about roman ruins.
Andrew Neil Retweeted
Apollo Magazine @Apollo_magazine
The rediscovered villas + temples that have transformed our modern understanding of Roman Britain http://www.apollo-magazine.com/roman-britain-when-you-least-expect-it/ …
The SLDs walked away from a possible coalition in 2007, I doubt there's much chance of either side holding hands now.
edit: and by that i mean large numbers in a systematic way.
Women of all faiths and none suffer abuse at the hands of men thats not the issue here.
Mr. Eagles, show Colonel Thornberry the respect she deserves
Boss Hogg rules for another 4 years.
Still four years for Carry On Corbyn to work on that.
I've long suspected that you're a plastic prod (whilst retaining the authentic bigotry of course).
'Bungling Jack Cooper coated Light Blues boozer the Louden Tavern, in Glasgow’s east end, in the colours of rivals Celtic, below.'
http://tinyurl.com/z5cz43y
That's the "Original Louden Tavern"
The "Louden Tavern" is opposite Ibrox. Do keep up divvie ..
My suspicion is that even few people have voted this year - meaning that none of the parties are enthusing supporters. Which is not good for any of them.
2020 comes down to who can get support out.
Corbyn's claim to the leadership all comes down to the size of his mandate. But that mandate is meaningless if he can't convert that to popular support. And there is no evidence on the votes cast yesterday that he is bringing new people into politics.
It's all about the (M)momentum.
So much of Scottish politics at the moment is about identifying who the opposition to the SNP is. Once that becomes clear we see strong tactical voting to the challenger's advantage. With the right candidate the Labour vote in that seat will be very soft. The problem for Scotland is the huge swathe of seats where Labour was previously dominant, is now collapsing and there is no alternative. These seats look very safe indeed.
"Domestic violence affects women of all cultures, religions and ethnic backgrounds. Preliminary research suggests that 10% of Muslims experience or have experienced physical violence."
http://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/resources/learn-the-basics/dv-muslim-women-faqs
http://order-order.com/2016/05/06/ken-brings-up-hitler-on-live-tv-again/
Lab 21 Con 6 LD 3 Green 1 Morley Ind 2
His claims about history have been debunked by all serious historians and yet he continues to peddle a discredited line.
The "Louden Tavern" is opposite Ibrox. Do keep up divvie ..
So you mis-identified the picture I posted of the "Original Louden Tavern" in the east end as the one beside Ibrox? How embarrassing.
Still, you were the roaster who thought the word 'Hun' had been made illegal, so anything goes I guess.
Hope this is not a portend of my eventual fate, but the long-serving leader (and friend) of another Surrey Borough was defeated 2-1 by a Resiodents' Association candidate. Turned a shade of grey on hearing that.
After boundary changes, my ward is highly marginal and so well, who knows......Anyway I have had a good innings.
PS Many congrats to tkpfar on a splendid result.
Anyway, I must be off. Just remember, don't mention Hitler. Livingstone did once, but I think he got away with it.
Still, you were the roaster who thought the word 'Hun' had been made illegal, so anything goes I guess.
The SNP's pet charity has deemed the word "abusive and sectarian".
http://nilbymouth.org/history/
Try shouting it at Hampden next month in the cup final..
What are British values anyway?
Cleveland PCC - Round II between Lab and Con
Covers most of it.