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Comments
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There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.0 -
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...0 -
I'd be surprised if there was a Tory government in 10 years time. Those same posters will be outraged that a Labour administration was adopting the Euro in its second term of office.GIN1138 said:
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...0 -
Yeah but given how europhile the Tory leadership is now I assume they will be fully supporting Labour in attempting to ditch the Pound, etc...
Remember it was the Tories that took us into Europe. It's the Tories who took us into the ERM. The Tories who signed Maastricht. It's the Tories now who are preparing the ground for the next wave of integration. Whenever a big decision is to be made the Tories will ALWAYS show their true europhile colours.0 -
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.timetrompette said:
There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?0 -
GIN1138 said:
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...
Your guys seriously muffed up their response to Obama - get over it.
It wasn't as though they had to dig far into history (22 months...) to see how to handle it.....0 -
You've rumbled the global conspiracy (©John Redwood) - rats! The game's up......GIN1138 said:Yeah but given how europhile the Tory leadership is now I assume they will be fully supporting Labour in attempting to ditch the Pound, etc...
Remember it was the Tories that took us into Europe. It's the Tories who took us into the ERM. The Tories who signed Maastricht. It's the Tories now who are preparing the ground for the next wave of integration. Whenever a big decision is to be made the Tories will ALWAYS show their true europhile colours.0 -
The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe, the time is clearly right for it to be liquidated, and replaced with something more fit for purpose, like a worn out department store being redeveloped as apartments.
Who will put it out of our misery?0 -
One happy consequence of yesterday's brouhaha is the prospect of PM Boris receded further:
US president Barack Obama has hit back after Boris Johnson's comments about his "part-Kenyan" ancestry.
Mr Johnson said the removal of a bust of Churchill from Obama's office was seen by some as a sign of an "ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
The comments in an article for The Sun were branded "idiotic" and "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson.
Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference.
He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.
"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said.
"It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36112694
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Probably uses it as a hat stand or used chewing gum receptacle.CarlottaVance said:One happy consequence of yesterday's brouhaha is the prospect of PM Boris receded further:
US president Barack Obama has hit back after Boris Johnson's comments about his "part-Kenyan" ancestry.
Mr Johnson said the removal of a bust of Churchill from Obama's office was seen by some as a sign of an "ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
The comments in an article for The Sun were branded "idiotic" and "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson.
Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference.
He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.
"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said.
"It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-361126940 -
No one. Certainly not UKIP.......and the Tory party has been quite successful in the pursuit of power - its only when it gets hung up on 'principle' that the electorate give up on it.timetrompette said:The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Who will put it out of our misery?0 -
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Laura Kuennsberg:
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-361159130 -
C1C2DE male/female 45+.timetrompette said:The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe, the time is clearly right for it to be liquidated, and replaced with something more fit for purpose, like a worn out department store being redeveloped as apartments.
Who will put it out of our misery?
The same people that loathed Brown's inability to count, Blair's inability to tell the truth and the Home Office's inability to deal with migration.
The Tories are New Labour. The centrist mush that achieves very little party.0 -
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live0 -
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.0
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No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message0 -
This is the bottom line for me, regardless of your EU views Cameron has governed very poorly since last May, he is severely discredited. He has contrived to turn an unexpected majority into a party utterly divided, possibly terminally.SouthamObserver said:The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.
Serves him right for being arrogant and duplicitous, his legacy will reflect public opinion of him, not the last few toadies clinging to his coat tails.0 -
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message0 -
Regarding Obummer, meh, what you expect really.
I hope America is happy to be at the back of the queue when it comes to British diplomatic cover and British lives lost for their foreign policy adventures.0 -
That'll speed up a trade deal no end.......Indigo said:
I hope America is happy to be at the back of the queue when it comes to British diplomatic cover and British lives lost for their foreign policy adventures.
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When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.0 -
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.0 -
Another area where UKIP voters are outliers (or more honest):
@GE2020
Yougov
% of a parties voters who say they have NOT read or seen a Shapespeare play
UKIP 40%
LABOUR 21%
CONSERVATIVE 20%
LIBDEM 19%
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Could a Leaver identify for me the threat that they think was made?0
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So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?0 -
Its SINDYREF revisited, people get upset when bold assertions not within their gift are shot down, by those who do hold the gift desired:AlastairMeeks said:Could a Leaver identify for me the threat that they think was made?
SNP: 'The UK will share the pound'
UK: 'No, we won't'
SNP: 'The UK are making threats! Project Fear!'
LEAVE: 'The US will rush to do a Trade Deal with us'
US: 'No, we won't. Get in the queue behind the bigger blocs.'
LEAVE: 'The US are making threats! Project Fear!!0 -
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Back of the queue, Sunil!0
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Morning all. Happy St. George's Day!0
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After reading what must constitute the longest whine in history it's hard not to conclude how right John Major was and we've still got two months to go! Where next for Leave?0
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The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
Read & weep, LEAVErs, read & weep:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/08/alex-salmond-obama-cameron-scottish-independence0 -
GQ has joined the Global Conspiracy (©John Redwood)foxinsoxuk said:
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Brexiters insist that we will get a fantastic new deal from America and the rest of the world. When America and the rest of the world encourage us not to do this – the G20 has already warned that Brexit would be a pretty bad idea – the same Brexiters tell them to shut up, that it’s our decision, and that they should have nothing to do with it.
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/eu-brexit-brexiters-boris-johnson0 -
ThanksSandpit said:Morning all. Happy St. George's Day!
- and what a glorious Spring morning it is too. 0 -
The only option left is to go Full Enoch on immigration.felix said:After reading what must constitute the longest whine in history it's hard not to conclude how right John Major was and we've still got two months to go! Where next for Leave?
They're swamping our public services! (Even though they pay tax)
They're holding down wages for the low paid! (True)
DEY TOOK ERRR JERRRRBS!0 -
And LEAVE got it completely the other way round.......Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
Read & weep, LEAVErs, read & weep:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/08/alex-salmond-obama-cameron-scottish-independence0 -
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.CarlottaVance said:
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.0 -
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.0 -
Betfair implied probability - trending back to the longterm mean:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgtR5tcW4AA6FFK.jpg0 -
Some perspective on yesterday. At the moment, without a trade deal, UK/USA trade is about $4bn a month each way, slightly favouring the UK: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?0 -
Well that's the point, Obama will go back to the US without a second glance, he's done what he thinks best. Cameron has to face the music. Now if his sole intention as PM was to keep us in the EU then he can pat himself on the back. If he had in mind to be respected and admired, having united the Conservative party, he has failed miserably.Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
Read & weep, LEAVErs, read & weep:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/08/alex-salmond-obama-cameron-scottish-independence
0 -
Any tips, I need some winners to end a bad runblackburn63 said:
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.CarlottaVance said:
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.0 -
I think they enjoy being ANGRY!!! so Raab's 'lame duck..... blackmail[er]' is more to their taste. Let alone Boris' or Nigel's comments......DavidL said:
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people?
0 -
Actually, I made a mistake. That is our trade in goods only. Our total trade will be even larger.CarlottaVance said:
I think they enjoy being ANGRY!!! so Raab's 'lame duck..... blackmail[er]' is more to their taste. Let alone Boris' or Nigel's comments......DavidL said:
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people?0 -
DavidL said:
Some perspective on yesterday. At the moment, without a trade deal, UK/USA trade is about $4bn a month each way, slightly favouring the UK: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
Probably because if someone did point it out, the media would prefer to pick off some scintillating piece of nonsense from some 'leaver' to grab attention instead.
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
0 -
Me too.malcolmg said:
Any tips, I need some winners to end a bad runblackburn63 said:
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.CarlottaVance said:
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
Grumeti, Coulsty, Peterhouse.
Win singles, e/w doubles and trebles.
More hope than confidence0 -
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.0 -
I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.0 -
From Breitbart, the last sentence is a killer:CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/0 -
The heads of the Leave campaign, people like Gove and Hannan, are always calm and polite. Its understandable that some people who want us to leave the EU are miffed by events. They are beyond anger at the way they're being treated by the PM. And these people are Conservative voters, his supporters. They'll take their revenge, they're famous for it.MarkHopkins said:DavidL said:Some perspective on yesterday. At the moment, without a trade deal, UK/USA trade is about $4bn a month each way, slightly favouring the UK: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
Probably because if someone did point it out, the media would prefer to pick off some scintillating piece of nonsense from some 'leaver' to grab attention instead.
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.0 -
Would you care to post a few?MarkHopkins said:
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.DavidL said:Some perspective on yesterday. At the moment, without a trade deal, UK/USA trade is about $4bn a month each way, slightly favouring the UK: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?0 -
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.0 -
Current POTUS related Betfair prices.
Clinton. Nominee 1.065. POTUS. 1.375. Implied odds if nominee = 1.375/1.065 = 1.29. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.065/1.375 = 77.5%.
Trump. Nominee 1.44. POTUS. 6.5. Implied odds if nominee = 6.5/1.44 = 4.51. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.44/6.5 = 22.2%.
So if its Clinton v Trump, as once again appears increasingly likely, we have implied odds and percentages as follows.
Clinton 1.29. 77.5%
Trump 4.51. 22.2%
That's Clinton 2/7 Trump 7/2 in old money.
I know how badly Trump does in match ups with Clinton and also about his unfavourability ratings but in a two horse race that's quite a difference in price. I'm already on Trump for POTUS at much lower odds than currently available. I backed him at the top of the market at 4.32 and I'm not inclined to increase my position. If I was starting from scratch I would definitely back him at current POTUS odds 6.5 (6.4-6.6).0 -
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.Moses_ said:I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.0 -
CarlottaVance said:
Would you care to post a few?MarkHopkins said:
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.DavidL said:Some perspective on yesterday. At the moment, without a trade deal, UK/USA trade is about $4bn a month each way, slightly favouring the UK: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
I'm sure you are capable of finding them if you want to.
BTW Carlotta, I've been looking back over this thread, do you ever sleep?
0 -
I suggest that you read the manifestos of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.blackburn63 said:
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!0 -
You've proved my point succinctly, thanks.foxinsoxuk said:
I suggest that you read the manifestoes of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.blackburn63 said:
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!0 -
This is superb.timetrompette said:The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe,
The Tories are "in existence solely for the pursuit of power", which they intend to wield by "outsourcing government to Europe"...
And the leavers wonder why people think they are incoherent loons.0 -
foxinsoxuk said:
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.Moses_ said:I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
This is different but of course If you say so.... We will see won't we. You avoid the point though. I didn't say we would not have elections only that they would be pointless.foxinsoxuk said:
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.Moses_ said:I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.0 -
I don't think you were ever seriously considering Leave.CarlottaVance said:
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.timetrompette said:
There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?0 -
That Froman worked as an intern in the EEC (as it was then) in 1992?nigel4england said:
From Breitbart, the last sentence is a killer:CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
Some 'killer fact'0 -
This explains a lot. Cameron is personally furious at Boris Johnson and, what's more, is clearly enjoying every opportunity to see him humiliated.CarlottaVance said:Laura Kuennsberg:
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36115913
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.0 -
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:
Well that's the point, Obama will go back to the US without a second glance, he's done what he thinks best. Cameron has to face the music. Now if his sole intention as PM was to keep us in the EU then he can pat himself on the back. If he had in mind to be respected and admired, having united the Conservative party, he has failed miserably.Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.
0 -
btw punters get on Utd at a shade of odds against, Everton are really struggling, Utd coming back to some sort of form, I make them an odds on chance.0
-
Same here, will do Southfield Theatre EW at Sandown.blackburn63 said:
Me too.malcolmg said:
Any tips, I need some winners to end a bad runblackburn63 said:
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.CarlottaVance said:
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
Grumeti, Coulsty, Peterhouse.
Win singles, e/w doubles and trebles.
More hope than confidence0 -
Don't forget how Cameron was busy licking Obama's a** while simultaneously writing the speech which he forced him to makeScott_P said:
This is superb.timetrompette said:The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe,
The Tories are "in existence solely for the pursuit of power", which they intend to wield by "outsourcing government to Europe"...
And the leavers wonder why people think they are incoherent loons.
0 -
Boris needs no help from Cameron to make himself look like a fool. He opens his own mouth. I doubt if even many leavers see him as a future leader.Casino_Royale said:
This explains a lot. Cameron is personally furious at Boris Johnson and, what's more, is clearly enjoying every opportunity to see him humiliated.CarlottaVance said:Laura Kuennsberg:
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36115913
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Huzzah for St. George and Shakespeare!
I do still wonder how Obama's condescending and suspiciously British language will be viewed by the electorate. Worth also noting the vote is two months away still.
More importantly, I got a new 5* review today: "I can only recommend that everyone who likes British humour and fantasy buys" http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B01DOSP9ZK/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent
What a wise and tasteful reader.0 -
I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.0
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Boris is a fool. Another Old Etonian who should slink off and spend more time with his family.
Bullingdon Club reunions are going to be a bit 'frosty' in future.0 -
I've worked in both the UK and Brussels for an American multinational and think on balance we are better off in. Whats really putting me off LEAVE is the tone of voice and hysteria with which some of them advance their case. As I mentioned above, some LEAVErs make persuasive, strategic, arguments why we would be better off out and if the Vote ended up LEAVE and we were to follow that, it would be a pity, but not a disaster.Casino_Royale said:
I don't think you were ever seriously considering Leave.CarlottaVance said:
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.timetrompette said:
.Tykejohnno said:
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?CarlottaVance said:
He's also keen on Cameron:Tykejohnno said:
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)CarlottaVance said:
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?Tykejohnno said:Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Andrew Percy
@andrewpercy
I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?
Unfortunately, after Gove's speech this week I've given up any hope we'll see a sensible official LEAVE proposition - which is a pity, because if (when) REMAIN win, there are going to be a lot of angry disappointed people.
On the bright side, the prospect of PM Boris has been laid to rest.
Did LEAVE not think Cameron was going to fight this, and fight to win? Its not as though this was the first referendum he's fought. Its not as though this is the first referendum the US President has intervened in.....yet LEAVE appear to need to derive everything from first principles (and generally get it wrong) - have they not war gamed this?
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Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.0 -
You want us to abstain?Morris_Dancer said:
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward..
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Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.0 -
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.0 -
stjohn said:
I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire. </blockquote
Obama's tone was rational, thoughtful, friendly and realistic - easy to see why 'leaver's' are suspicious. Clearly part of the conspiracy by which the weak Cameron is forcing the entire free world to back him.0 -
Party management before National interest...Casino_Royale said:If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
And the leavers are the ones crying traitor.0 -
I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean Cameron isn't being reckless.felix said:
Boris needs no help from Cameron to make himself look like a fool. He opens his own mouth. I doubt if even many leavers see him as a future leader.Casino_Royale said:
This explains a lot. Cameron is personally furious at Boris Johnson and, what's more, is clearly enjoying every opportunity to see him humiliated.CarlottaVance said:Laura Kuennsberg:
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36115913
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.
There are ways to fight hard, and win, but to do so respectfully.
I think Cameron/Osborne smelt blood and they just couldn't resist putting the boot in.
They are no saints either.0 -
Indeed. For me the answer is 'in a direction I know I don't like' and 'uncertain, but at this point it has more potential' respectively.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
That said, I do enjoy when froth on all sides gets contradictory, it's hilarious. The contrasting point our Cameron kowtowing to Obama or that Obama is doing his bidding is a good one, though in confident remain can cone back and top that.0 -
Mr. Jonathan, you tinker, you.
Miss Vance, you're right. One cannot unboil an egg. But that doesn't, in itself, mean boiling an egg is an unwise course of action.
During the course of that 10-15 years, if it does develop in an uncongenial way, that would damage our democracy and economy. If we leave, the EU can integrate further as it wishes, and we can strike our own trade deals and make our own laws.
Of course, I also believe the eurozone and EU will collapse at some point, so the sooner we disentangle ourselves from it, the better.0 -
What about the rest of it?CarlottaVance said:
That Froman worked as an intern in the EEC (as it was then) in 1992?nigel4england said:
From Breitbart, the last sentence is a killer:CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
Some 'killer fact'
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Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.0 -
@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW0
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The good news for Remaining is that implementing TTIP will herald the eventual break up and privatisation of the NHS, and we'll finally be on the road to decent healthcare in the UK.foxinsoxuk said:
I suggest that you read the manifestos of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.blackburn63 said:
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!0 -
Boris is getting a bit UKIPy these days.Scott_P said:@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW
0 -
Point me to where I said fact please.CarlottaVance said:
That Froman worked as an intern in the EEC (as it was then) in 1992?nigel4england said:
From Breitbart, the last sentence is a killer:CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
Some 'killer fact'
Your ability to twist what doesn't suit you is very impressive.
I merely pointed it out so people could see the irony, I never said fact at all.0 -
In Peter Snowdon and Anthony Seldon's book "Cameron at 10" they say that world leaders commiserated with outgoing PM Gordon Brown and telling him how much they had wanted him to win. Two hours later the same leaders were congratulating Cameron and letting him know they were delighted that he had won.
Now those gestures were done in private (apart from the fact that the same Downing Street officials were listening in on both conversations - whether the foreign leaders realised this is questionable). A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.0 -
felix. I'm probably going to vote REMAIN so my view of the press conference is not that of a likely "LEAVER".0
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And how would that happen?CarlottaVance said:
Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
You are saying they we would only be allowed back on much worse terms than we currently enjoy? What terms are those then, the ones where we pay net somewhere in the region of £7 billion a year? Or the fact that we are a net importer of goods from the EU?
You have been on here constantly deriding Leavers yet your posts are delusional.0 -
@PeterMannionMP: Nice idea to see UK fingerprints on 'back of the queue' (not line), but OBAMA USES QUEUE IN LOTS OF SPEECHES. #EUref https://t.co/r8rolmRclM0
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Mr. kle4, I'd add "Uncertain, but it's in our hands."0
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You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimisticCasino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?0 -
Quite a rarity on PB for someone to concede they are ignorant. Congratulations @blackburn63 I admire your brutal honesty.blackburn63 said:
You've proved my point succinctly, thanks.foxinsoxuk said:
I suggest that you read the manifestoes of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.blackburn63 said:
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!0 -
You mean 435 million customers. Let's be honest, the 65 million Brits are more valuable than the EU's customers east of Germany.Scott_P said:
No, it wouldn't.tlg86 said:A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
"Hey, guys, abandon that deal for 500 million customers and get to work on a UK deal right now, ok?"0 -
They probably believed that he meant everything he said from 2005 to 2015 about the EU needing reform for the UK to stay in.CarlottaVance said:Did LEAVE not think Cameron was going to fight this, and fight to win?
0 -
Oh they smelt blood, and it was their own. I don't think it's that they couldn't resist it, it's that they are flailing in desperation and know they need to try anything to survive.Casino_Royale said:
I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean Cameron isn't being reckless.felix said:
Boris needs no help from Cameron to make himself look like a fool. He opens his own mouth. I doubt if even many leavers see him as a future leader.Casino_Royale said:
This explains a lot. Cameron is personally furious at Boris Johnson and, what's more, is clearly enjoying every opportunity to see him humiliated.CarlottaVance said:Laura Kuennsberg:
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36115913
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.
There are ways to fight hard, and win, but to do so respectfully.
I think Cameron/Osborne smelt blood and they just couldn't resist putting the boot in.
They are no saints either.0 -
Quite. Well, mostly. I accept we don't get all we want from others, but we do t know and this time we couldn't blame a club we were willingly part of, do more incentive to try.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, I'd add "Uncertain, but it's in our hands."
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You have heard of the concept of multitasking haven't you? Why would the US need to abandon a deal 444 million customers to get a deal with out 64 million?Scott_P said:
No, it wouldn't.tlg86 said:A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
"Hey, guys, abandon that deal for 500 million customers and get to work on a UK deal right now, ok?"
Basic fact fail there, 500 million includes us. If we leave, it won't include us.0
