What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
Obama is an anti-British has-been. He is trying to treat us like a poodle: "Do what we say or suddenly you won't be our closest ally after all." Thankfully, Clinton, Trump, Cruz and Kasich all come from the more traditional school of thought where they don't treat their allies like crap. We will jump to the front of the queue when they realise we are more effective at getting a deal done than the French and Italians.
You mean the British aren't going to fight very hard for what we want and will roll over and give the US everything they want? Not the sort of deal I think that we really need.
What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
Boo, hoo - the nasty US won't drop everything to give us a special trade deal if we leave the EU. They're horrid, Obama hates us because he's not a proper American, he has uppity African blood, it's not fair.
Of course the US are also probably not too happy about Brexit because it will put back negotiations on the EU back by a couple of years, at least. They will need to establish the post Brexit EU/British landscape before assessing the balance of risks within the EU/US trade deal.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.
Predictably the most sensible comment from the Leavers has been from David Owen. Rather than think their case is improved by beating up the messenger he explained why in his view Obama thought it in the US's interests that the UK remained in the EU.
He then went on to explain why he didn't agree-and was reasonably persuasive. Though whether he can undo the damage done by the official spokespeople for Leave is doubtful.
Indeed. That's what I've been saying for the last 24 hours. The US is acting entirely as you'd expect by game theory.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.
He obviously does not understand queuing......do you think he's British.....might he be - you know (an immigrant)?
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.
What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
No - they just enjoy the sight of Raab, Johnson & Farage going apoplectic when their version of 'US Trade Policy' is contradicted by the US President's version of 'US Trade Policy'.
Predictably the most sensible comment from the Leavers has been from David Owen. Rather than think their case is improved by beating up the messenger he explained why in his view Obama thought it in the US's interests that the UK remained in the EU.
He then went on to explain why he didn't agree-and was reasonably persuasive. Though whether he can undo the damage done by the official spokespeople for Leave is doubtful.
Indeed. That's what I've been saying for the last 24 hours. The US is acting entirely as you'd expect by game theory.
Quite. The best Leave can do is manage to convince that Obama is pursuing US interests but are irrelevant because UK interests do not align with US interests (the problem being that a fundamental plank of the Leave case is that the UK interests are dependent on US actions). Failing that they have to try to convince that Obama is mistaken in what is in the US interest (Tricky). But really those are the only two viable strategies to try to advance their case in the referendum.
It is stupid to argue that Obama has no right to pursue the US interest as he sees fit. And all the stuff about Cameron is irrelevant as far as the referendum is concerned and focussed entirely on the fallout afterwards.
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"?
Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
Like Boris, Nigel Farage decided the best way to counter Obama was to imply that he is an uppity African. Like many of us, the Queen was no doubt embarrassed.
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
Like Boris, Nigel Farage decided the best way to counter Obama was to imply that he is an uppity African. Like many of us, the Queen was no doubt embarrassed.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
We already trade with the US. What Leave has been claiming is that post-Brexit we would quickly agree a deal with the US that would allow us to do so on better terms than is currently the case. Obama merely pointed out that is not going to happen. He did not talk down the UK, he exposed Leave claims for the delusions they are.
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"?
Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?
Well, it's a view.
Try again, substituting the word "consequence" instead of "punishment" and you will interpret correctly what he said.
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"?
Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?
Well, it's a view.
No it's not a f***ing threat. "If you join the queue you'll be starting at the back" is only a threat in the most deluded of minds.
Tell me, where do you normal enter a queue?
A: I normally join a queue at the back. B: I normally push past everyone already in the queue and join at the front.
Personally when I enter a queue I go for A, I join at the back. That's the very concept of a queue.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
We already trade with the US. What Leave has been claiming is that post-Brexit we would quickly agree a deal with the US that would allow us to do so on better terms than is currently the case. Obama merely pointed out that is not going to happen. He did not talk down the UK, he exposed Leave claims for the delusions they are.
So much for non partisan discussion.
You are throwing around scurrilous accusations today which is very revealing.
My point is if the queue stands at 100 countries we're in trouble, on the other hand......
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.
But since the status quo isn't an option...!
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.
I do think that Cameron has wrecked his premiership with his fanatical pursuit of the Europhile cause. He is now a divisive figure who has split his party bitterly down the middle. He could more wisely have followed Harold Wilson and taken a backseat role. I think he would still have achieved his desired outcome,
As it stands he will surely face a V0C after the referendum. He should win this, but with a minority against him sufficient to damage his authority severely. He could still carry on of course but he will then face umpteen backbench revolts which will torpedo his legislative program.
And then there is the Tory conference in October. Boos, slow handclaps?
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
How do you think he should have phrased it?
Perhaps "lower down the queue" would have been better. Although then all the other countries currently involved in trade negotiations might have wanted to know where they currently were in the "queue" and whether they would be leapfrogged...
What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
Boo, hoo - the nasty US won't drop everything to give us a special trade deal if we leave the EU. They're horrid, Obama hates us because he's not a proper American, he has uppity African blood, it's not fair.
Grow some Leavers. It's pathetic!
I wouldn't expect Obama to go to the Isle of Mann during an election and tell them they'd be at the back of any queue. It's a total trashing of diplomatic protocol.
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
"There will be consequences" etc
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.
1. Our relationship with America is irrelevant to whether we Brexit. What Obama said doesn't affect any concrete outcome.
2. It torpedoes Leave's implied claims that treaty renegotiations will be a breeze. They won't be. This applies most of all to our negotiations with our former EU partners. Leave would have been advised to be more circumspect, but in overstating their case they have only highlighted a vulnerability for them.
3. Leave leaders and supporters are very shrill at the moment. Undecideds hate this.
4. Campaigns that are promoted by governments are in a much stronger position. The same applied to the Yes campaign in the Scottish independence referendum. Governments have machinery, can do things officially and have a considerable control over the news agenda.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
I quite agree. If I really believed that leaving the EU would boot TTIP (or similar) into the long grass it would be the cherry on the top of the cake.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote it
Surely it should be "back garden" not "back yard" or is Obama writing posts for you?
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.
Which is a pity.
No, but what I could read until the paywall looks interesting.
I firmly believe that Nigel has great charisma, but a leader is a group of people, not an individual. Shitty support structure; crap looking leader. That's why I think Corbyn has improved of late.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
It's way more than half his party. Taking into account the membership, the Shires, the blue rinse brigade, etc. He's declared war on about 80% of his party.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.
If that was the case why did he back Remain? He'd have had a much easier ride if he'd gone for Leave.
I don't think that's correct. Facing the consequences of an out vote would be a nightmare and explaining what it means during the campaign would be even worse. If you think Boris and co are floundering just think what it would be like for Cameron. Woolly hand gestures wouldn't do. He'd have to have the future outside spelled out so everyone could understand
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
"There will be consequences" etc
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.
Actions have consequences, that is also not a threat except again in very infantile minds.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
And the first two are of a size where both sides are of a size that the advantages to both are obvious. Presumably that is why the US prefer trading with blocs, or countries of comparable size.
Any US/UK negotiations for new trade deals would be very lopsided. The UK would have far more to gain (relatively) than the US and so the terms would inevitably be skewed in the US favour. And would be far less of a priority for the US for the same reason.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.
It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
"There will be consequences" etc
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.
Actions have consequences, that is also not a threat except again in very infantile minds.
Half the country are infantile then, I bow to your superior intelligence.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
In general terms, I would say the priority of trading importance to the US is: EU, China, Mexico, Canada, South America in general, then maybe India because there's a lot of work to be done there and perhaps Britain after that. The first four are the important ones. Although it's a big country the US still has limited resource in terms of qualified trade officials and Administration mindshare. It would take a while before they got onto the UK.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I think Nigel and Boris' comments were silly; not because I think they were being particularly racist, but because it's too much explanation to possibly get into anyone's mind from a blank slate. 'Yes it is good for America, but not good for us - as was the Iraq war' would have been a better approach imo.
Personally I don't believe Obama's background influenced his doing this, though I'm open to the fact it may have put more of a spring in his step whilst doing it. It's Nigel and Boris doing a bit of a Poirot act when the real reasons are simpler ones of ongoing American strategic policy. Brexit would be a total mess for the US.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
It's way more than half his party. Taking into account the membership, the Shires, the blue rinse brigade, etc. He's declared war on about 80% of his party.
No it's way less than half of the party. Not every leaver is died in the wool this is the most important thing to them. I am member who is tempted to vote leave presently but I don't view a remainer campaigning for remain as a declaration of war, I see it as inevitable.
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.
But since the status quo isn't an option...!
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
1. Our relationship with America is irrelevant to whether we Brexit. What Obama said doesn't affect any concrete outcome.
2. It torpedoes Leave's implied claims that treaty renegotiations will be a breeze. They won't be. This applies most of all to our negotiations with our former EU partners. Leave would have been advised to be more circumspect, but in overstating their case they have only highlighted a vulnerability for them.
3. Leave leaders and supporters are very shrill at the moment. Undecideds hate this.
4. Campaigns that are promoted by governments are in a much stronger position. The same applied to the Yes campaign in the Scottish independence referendum. Governments have machinery, can do things officially and have a considerable control over the news agenda.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
Fair summary.
It's not as though Obama hasn't intervened in a UK referendum before (all of 22 months ago), when there was a masterclass in shutting it down as an issue from Salmond - LEAVE have done the reverse and made a tricky situation much worse with their indignant posturing.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.
No, we'll see when the result comes out. The POTUS, especially Obama, condemning Leave is not going to enhance its social acceptability on iota, but it may increase shy Leavers.
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
No I think it the Government should only publish contingency plans for things it likes and wants to implement. We may have contingency plans for a war between us and France, no need for it to be published.
I think Cameron has a contingency for a leave vote, but he's under no obligation to publish it.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote it
Leaver's comments on Obama are so hysterically hyperbolic and riddled with mutually inconsistent statements it has been comical. Bit like the Leave campaign in general I guess.
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.
But since the status quo isn't an option...!
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.
Orly. Ports Directive.
Are you undecided again by any chance ?
I've been undecided the entire time and have said I'll only likely make my mind up when holding the pencil in my hand in the ballot box, which is quite liberating for someone who is normally dead set on one course of action. I see pros and cons for both options and will not be campaigning for either side.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.
I've said all thread that the Americans will effectively start negotiations from June 24 onwards if we vote Leave, it will simply be starting from scratch though rather than quite advanced like TTIP is. The fact that the TPP negotiators have finished their negotiations is the icing on the cake.
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
So you think government contingency plans for things it doesn't like should be uncosted, not fully worked out, and not watertight.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.
Because it will lower trade barriers between the UK and USA and I believe in lower trade barriers.
The fact that most complaints against it are for things I'd agree with (like increased competition) again confirms my views.
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote it
Leaver's comments on Obama are so hysterically hyperbolic and riddled with mutually inconsistent statements it has been comical. Bit like the Leave campaign in general I guess.
Indeed.
It's been hilarious reading some of the comments last night and this morning!
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.
How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.
He obviously does not understand queuing......do you think he's British.....might he be - you know (an immigrant)?
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
I heard Johnson's I didn't hear Farage's. I only know what I read in SO's post.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.
I've said all thread that the Americans will effectively start negotiations from June 24 onwards if we vote Leave, it will simply be starting from scratch though rather than quite advanced like TTIP is. The fact that the TPP negotiators have finished their negotiations is the icing on the cake.
Not quite from scratch. TTIP will form a useful template to start from.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.
TTIP is a left/right thing rather than leave/remain.
It's curious to see just how many on the left seem content to accept lower wages, higher prices and privatisation of public services as a price worth paying to get one over on UKIP/The Daily Mail etc.
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
So you think government contingency plans for things it doesn't like should be uncosted, not fully worked out, and not watertight.
That's the concept of contingency yes.
If the government spent billions fully costing, working out and making water tight every possible contingency then that would be a waste of money. There should be just enough planning to ensure that you're not flatfooted and are able to adapt.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"
The politicians at the head of the Leave campaign are the sort of politicians who don't believe in spending money on advertising.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.
TTIP is a left/right thing rather than leave/remain.
It's curious to see just how many on the left seem content to accept lower wages, higher prices and privatisation of public services as a price worth paying to get one over on UKIP/The Daily Mail etc.
I don't believe that TTIP would result in lower wages or higher prices, quite the opposite. Then again I am right wing.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.
But since the status quo isn't an option...!
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.
Orly. Ports Directive.
Ah, yes. Funny how implementation of that has been delayed until later in the year. Good news for foreign, state owned ports, not so great for the privately financed ones here.
I guess we can add cargo handling, to steelmaking, cement manufacture, and fishing, as industries wiped out by the EU.
I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.
Because it will lower trade barriers between the UK and USA and I believe in lower trade barriers.
The fact that most complaints against it are for things I'd agree with (like increased competition) again confirms my views.
Sorry but to say that a specific trade deal is a 'great deal' because you believe in a broad concept of 'lower trade barriers' is absurdly simplistic, and there's no other way of describing it.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
I heard Johnson's I didn't hear Farage's. I only know what I read in SO's post.
Thanks, so you made it up. Its important to know who you're dealing with, I'm sure you'll agree.
As it turns out Nigel said something silly but you didn't know that.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"
The politicians at the head of the Leave campaign are the sort of politicians who don't believe in spending money on advertising.
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
"Every day he spends tag-teaming with Nigel Farage – who repeated the mayor’s “half-Kenyan” line – risks trashing the Boris brand, defining Johnson as less a future prime minister than a figure of the fringes, less a lovable maverick than a rather unpleasant oddball".
Comments
Grow some Leavers. It's pathetic!
So having beaten Cameron up, Obama is off to Germany to tell all the Germans what a wonderful Chancellor they have
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/obama-ueber-merkel-ich-bin-stolz-dass-angela-meine-freundin-ist-14194905.html
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
No - they just enjoy the sight of Raab, Johnson & Farage going apoplectic when their version of 'US Trade Policy' is contradicted by the US President's version of 'US Trade Policy'.
You've no one to blame but yourselves.
It is stupid to argue that Obama has no right to pursue the US interest as he sees fit. And all the stuff about Cameron is irrelevant as far as the referendum is concerned and focussed entirely on the fallout afterwards.
Well, it's a view.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
Try again!
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Tell me, where do you normal enter a queue?
A: I normally join a queue at the back.
B: I normally push past everyone already in the queue and join at the front.
Personally when I enter a queue I go for A, I join at the back. That's the very concept of a queue.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
You are throwing around scurrilous accusations today which is very revealing.
My point is if the queue stands at 100 countries we're in trouble, on the other hand......
As it stands he will surely face a V0C after the referendum. He should win this, but with a minority against him sufficient to damage his authority severely. He could still carry on of course but he will then face umpteen backbench revolts which will torpedo his legislative program.
And then there is the Tory conference in October. Boos, slow handclaps?
Perhaps "lower down the queue" would have been better. Although then all the other countries currently involved in trade negotiations might have wanted to know where they currently were in the "queue" and whether they would be leapfrogged...
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/farage-prepares-to-rebrand-ukip-as-an-online-movement-n2mdxgtpt
1. Our relationship with America is irrelevant to whether we Brexit. What Obama said doesn't affect any concrete outcome.
2. It torpedoes Leave's implied claims that treaty renegotiations will be a breeze. They won't be. This applies most of all to our negotiations with our former EU partners. Leave would have been advised to be more circumspect, but in overstating their case they have only highlighted a vulnerability for them.
3. Leave leaders and supporters are very shrill at the moment. Undecideds hate this.
4. Campaigns that are promoted by governments are in a much stronger position. The same applied to the Yes campaign in the Scottish independence referendum. Governments have machinery, can do things officially and have a considerable control over the news agenda.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
I firmly believe that Nigel has great charisma, but a leader is a group of people, not an individual. Shitty support structure; crap looking leader. That's why I think Corbyn has improved of late.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
Any US/UK negotiations for new trade deals would be very lopsided. The UK would have far more to gain (relatively) than the US and so the terms would inevitably be skewed in the US favour. And would be far less of a priority for the US for the same reason.
And arrogance.
All of the blowhards whinging about Cameron's will to win have been noticeably quiet of Boris attempting to chew his own leg off
Dates, processes etc.
Personally I don't believe Obama's background influenced his doing this, though I'm open to the fact it may have put more of a spring in his step whilst doing it. It's Nigel and Boris doing a bit of a Poirot act when the real reasons are simpler ones of ongoing American strategic policy. Brexit would be a total mess for the US.
Are you undecided again by any chance ?
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
It's not as though Obama hasn't intervened in a UK referendum before (all of 22 months ago), when there was a masterclass in shutting it down as an issue from Salmond - LEAVE have done the reverse and made a tricky situation much worse with their indignant posturing.
I think Cameron has a contingency for a leave vote, but he's under no obligation to publish it.
At present I'm leaning leave.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"
The fact that most complaints against it are for things I'd agree with (like increased competition) again confirms my views.
It's been hilarious reading some of the comments last night and this morning!
It's curious to see just how many on the left seem content to accept lower wages, higher prices and privatisation of public services as a price worth paying to get one over on UKIP/The Daily Mail etc.
If the government spent billions fully costing, working out and making water tight every possible contingency then that would be a waste of money. There should be just enough planning to ensure that you're not flatfooted and are able to adapt.
I guess we can add cargo handling, to steelmaking, cement manufacture, and fishing, as industries wiped out by the EU.
As it turns out Nigel said something silly but you didn't know that.
Queue a bunch of unhappy leavers telling Cameron to Fuck off...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-crush-brexit-fantasy-eu-referendum?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
"Every day he spends tag-teaming with Nigel Farage – who repeated the mayor’s “half-Kenyan” line – risks trashing the Boris brand, defining Johnson as less a future prime minister than a figure of the fringes, less a lovable maverick than a rather unpleasant oddball".