Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...
I'd be surprised if there was a Tory government in 10 years time. Those same posters will be outraged that a Labour administration was adopting the Euro in its second term of office.
Yeah but given how europhile the Tory leadership is now I assume they will be fully supporting Labour in attempting to ditch the Pound, etc...
Remember it was the Tories that took us into Europe. It's the Tories who took us into the ERM. The Tories who signed Maastricht. It's the Tories now who are preparing the ground for the next wave of integration. Whenever a big decision is to be made the Tories will ALWAYS show their true europhile colours.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
Ten years from now all these Tory pom pom wavers on here like Scott and Richard Nabavi and Carlotta will be cheering on the attempts of the PM of the day to get us into the Euro...
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...
Your guys seriously muffed up their response to Obama - get over it.
It wasn't as though they had to dig far into history (22 months...) to see how to handle it.....
Yeah but given how europhile the Tory leadership is now I assume they will be fully supporting Labour in attempting to ditch the Pound, etc...
Remember it was the Tories that took us into Europe. It's the Tories who took us into the ERM. The Tories who signed Maastricht. It's the Tories now who are preparing the ground for the next wave of integration. Whenever a big decision is to be made the Tories will ALWAYS show their true europhile colours.
The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe, the time is clearly right for it to be liquidated, and replaced with something more fit for purpose, like a worn out department store being redeveloped as apartments.
One happy consequence of yesterday's brouhaha is the prospect of PM Boris receded further:
US president Barack Obama has hit back after Boris Johnson's comments about his "part-Kenyan" ancestry. Mr Johnson said the removal of a bust of Churchill from Obama's office was seen by some as a sign of an "ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
The comments in an article for The Sun were branded "idiotic" and "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson.
Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference. He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.
"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said. "It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."
One happy consequence of yesterday's brouhaha is the prospect of PM Boris receded further:
US president Barack Obama has hit back after Boris Johnson's comments about his "part-Kenyan" ancestry. Mr Johnson said the removal of a bust of Churchill from Obama's office was seen by some as a sign of an "ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
The comments in an article for The Sun were branded "idiotic" and "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson.
Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference. He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.
"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said. "It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."
The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power. Who will put it out of our misery?
No one. Certainly not UKIP.......and the Tory party has been quite successful in the pursuit of power - its only when it gets hung up on 'principle' that the electorate give up on it.
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
The Tory party is rapidly developing into a hollow shell, devoid of any principle, and in existence solely for the pursuit of power.
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe, the time is clearly right for it to be liquidated, and replaced with something more fit for purpose, like a worn out department store being redeveloped as apartments.
Who will put it out of our misery?
C1C2DE male/female 45+.
The same people that loathed Brown's inability to count, Blair's inability to tell the truth and the Home Office's inability to deal with migration.
The Tories are New Labour. The centrist mush that achieves very little party.
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.
This is the bottom line for me, regardless of your EU views Cameron has governed very poorly since last May, he is severely discredited. He has contrived to turn an unexpected majority into a party utterly divided, possibly terminally.
Serves him right for being arrogant and duplicitous, his legacy will reflect public opinion of him, not the last few toadies clinging to his coat tails.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
I hope America is happy to be at the back of the queue when it comes to British diplomatic cover and British lives lost for their foreign policy adventures.
I hope America is happy to be at the back of the queue when it comes to British diplomatic cover and British lives lost for their foreign policy adventures.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
After reading what must constitute the longest whine in history it's hard not to conclude how right John Major was and we've still got two months to go! Where next for Leave?
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Brexiters insist that we will get a fantastic new deal from America and the rest of the world. When America and the rest of the world encourage us not to do this – the G20 has already warned that Brexit would be a pretty bad idea – the same Brexiters tell them to shut up, that it’s our decision, and that they should have nothing to do with it.
After reading what must constitute the longest whine in history it's hard not to conclude how right John Major was and we've still got two months to go! Where next for Leave?
The only option left is to go Full Enoch on immigration.
They're swamping our public services! (Even though they pay tax) They're holding down wages for the low paid! (True) DEY TOOK ERRR JERRRRBS!
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitable might say hysterical ravings) proclamations about the Cameron/Kinnock/Ashdown photo proved to be a trifle overblown - so I suspect will their pronouncements on the Obama intervention.
If LEAVE had any sense, they would have dug into their history books and asked 'what happened last time a US President intervened in a UK referendum' (hint, it was less than two years ago, and at the time many of those now loudly complaining roundly defended Obama) and what lessons can we learn?
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Well that's the point, Obama will go back to the US without a second glance, he's done what he thinks best. Cameron has to face the music. Now if his sole intention as PM was to keep us in the EU then he can pat himself on the back. If he had in mind to be respected and admired, having united the Conservative party, he has failed miserably.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
Probably because if someone did point it out, the media would prefer to pick off some scintillating piece of nonsense from some 'leaver' to grab attention instead.
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
Probably because if someone did point it out, the media would prefer to pick off some scintillating piece of nonsense from some 'leaver' to grab attention instead.
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
The heads of the Leave campaign, people like Gove and Hannan, are always calm and polite. Its understandable that some people who want us to leave the EU are miffed by events. They are beyond anger at the way they're being treated by the PM. And these people are Conservative voters, his supporters. They'll take their revenge, they're famous for it.
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.
Clinton. Nominee 1.065. POTUS. 1.375. Implied odds if nominee = 1.375/1.065 = 1.29. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.065/1.375 = 77.5%.
Trump. Nominee 1.44. POTUS. 6.5. Implied odds if nominee = 6.5/1.44 = 4.51. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.44/6.5 = 22.2%.
So if its Clinton v Trump, as once again appears increasingly likely, we have implied odds and percentages as follows.
Clinton 1.29. 77.5% Trump 4.51. 22.2%
That's Clinton 2/7 Trump 7/2 in old money.
I know how badly Trump does in match ups with Clinton and also about his unfavourability ratings but in a two horse race that's quite a difference in price. I'm already on Trump for POTUS at much lower odds than currently available. I backed him at the top of the market at 4.32 and I'm not inclined to increase my position. If I was starting from scratch I would definitely back him at current POTUS odds 6.5 (6.4-6.6).
I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
Would you care to post a few?
I'm sure you are capable of finding them if you want to.
BTW Carlotta, I've been looking back over this thread, do you ever sleep?
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.
I suggest that you read the manifestos of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.
I suggest that you read the manifestoes of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.
I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.
I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
Absolute nonsense. We have been in the EU for 42 years and have had many elections in that period and will continue to have a similar number of elections in the next 42.
This is different but of course If you say so.... We will see won't we. You avoid the point though. I didn't say we would not have elections only that they would be pointless.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
There seem to be quite a few people utterly incapable of independent thinking, so one could forgive Obama for thinking it was necessary to tell them what to do. Lost souls such as Carlotta would be hopelessly confused without Barack's intervention.
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?
I don't think you were ever seriously considering Leave.
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Well that's the point, Obama will go back to the US without a second glance, he's done what he thinks best. Cameron has to face the music. Now if his sole intention as PM was to keep us in the EU then he can pat himself on the back. If he had in mind to be respected and admired, having united the Conservative party, he has failed miserably.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
So, your logic is 'If you agree with anything in the Guardian, you must therefore agree with everything in the Guardian"......
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
Nice try but I never used "agree", I used "relate", unlike you and Cameron I don't agree with anything or anybody in totality.
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
Any tips, I need some winners to end a bad run
Me too.
Grumeti, Coulsty, Peterhouse.
Win singles, e/w doubles and trebles.
More hope than confidence
Same here, will do Southfield Theatre EW at Sandown.
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
I do still wonder how Obama's condescending and suspiciously British language will be viewed by the electorate. Worth also noting the vote is two months away still.
I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak Out MP @andrewpercy: No US President would allow a British PM to do the same. Our Government has done Britain down today and diminished us”
Did he complain when Obama intervened in SINDYRef?
Don't know,I know he's very keen on a English parliament and he did tweet this in jest ;-)
Andrew Percy @andrewpercy I would vote Yes to Scottish independence if the deal includes removing the bagpiper on Westminster Bridge. I like the pipes, but not daily!
He's also keen on Cameron:
He was wrong but the PM still has my support and I've no truck with those who want him replacing.
And if cameron was for leave,so would you - is that how it works ?
.
Funnily enough I can come to my own conclusions.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?
I don't think you were ever seriously considering Leave.
I've worked in both the UK and Brussels for an American multinational and think on balance we are better off in. Whats really putting me off LEAVE is the tone of voice and hysteria with which some of them advance their case. As I mentioned above, some LEAVErs make persuasive, strategic, arguments why we would be better off out and if the Vote ended up LEAVE and we were to follow that, it would be a pity, but not a disaster.
Unfortunately, after Gove's speech this week I've given up any hope we'll see a sensible official LEAVE proposition - which is a pity, because if (when) REMAIN win, there are going to be a lot of angry disappointed people.
On the bright side, the prospect of PM Boris has been laid to rest.
Did LEAVE not think Cameron was going to fight this, and fight to win? Its not as though this was the first referendum he's fought. Its not as though this is the first referendum the US President has intervened in.....yet LEAVE appear to need to derive everything from first principles (and generally get it wrong) - have they not war gamed this?
Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire. </blockquote Obama's tone was rational, thoughtful, friendly and realistic - easy to see why 'leaver's' are suspicious. Clearly part of the conspiracy by which the weak Cameron is forcing the entire free world to back him.
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Indeed. For me the answer is 'in a direction I know I don't like' and 'uncertain, but at this point it has more potential' respectively.
That said, I do enjoy when froth on all sides gets contradictory, it's hilarious. The contrasting point our Cameron kowtowing to Obama or that Obama is doing his bidding is a good one, though in confident remain can cone back and top that.
Miss Vance, you're right. One cannot unboil an egg. But that doesn't, in itself, mean boiling an egg is an unwise course of action.
During the course of that 10-15 years, if it does develop in an uncongenial way, that would damage our democracy and economy. If we leave, the EU can integrate further as it wishes, and we can strike our own trade deals and make our own laws.
Of course, I also believe the eurozone and EU will collapse at some point, so the sooner we disentangle ourselves from it, the better.
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.
I suggest that you read the manifestos of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!
The good news for Remaining is that implementing TTIP will herald the eventual break up and privatisation of the NHS, and we'll finally be on the road to decent healthcare in the UK.
Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
In Peter Snowdon and Anthony Seldon's book "Cameron at 10" they say that world leaders commiserated with outgoing PM Gordon Brown and telling him how much they had wanted him to win. Two hours later the same leaders were congratulating Cameron and letting him know they were delighted that he had won.
Now those gestures were done in private (apart from the fact that the same Downing Street officials were listening in on both conversations - whether the foreign leaders realised this is questionable). A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....
And how would that happen?
You are saying they we would only be allowed back on much worse terms than we currently enjoy? What terms are those then, the ones where we pay net somewhere in the region of £7 billion a year? Or the fact that we are a net importer of goods from the EU?
You have been on here constantly deriding Leavers yet your posts are delusional.
@PeterMannionMP: Nice idea to see UK fingerprints on 'back of the queue' (not line), but OBAMA USES QUEUE IN LOTS OF SPEECHES. #EUref https://t.co/r8rolmRclM
Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.
As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimistic
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.
I suggest that you read the manifestoes of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!
You've proved my point succinctly, thanks.
Quite a rarity on PB for someone to concede they are ignorant. Congratulations @blackburn63 I admire your brutal honesty.
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
This explains a lot. Cameron is personally furious at Boris Johnson and, what's more, is clearly enjoying every opportunity to see him humiliated.
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.
Boris needs no help from Cameron to make himself look like a fool. He opens his own mouth. I doubt if even many leavers see him as a future leader.
I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean Cameron isn't being reckless.
There are ways to fight hard, and win, but to do so respectfully.
I think Cameron/Osborne smelt blood and they just couldn't resist putting the boot in.
They are no saints either.
Oh they smelt blood, and it was their own. I don't think it's that they couldn't resist it, it's that they are flailing in desperation and know they need to try anything to survive.
Mr. kle4, I'd add "Uncertain, but it's in our hands."
Quite. Well, mostly. I accept we don't get all we want from others, but we do t know and this time we couldn't blame a club we were willingly part of, do more incentive to try.
A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
No, it wouldn't.
"Hey, guys, abandon that deal for 500 million customers and get to work on a UK deal right now, ok?"
You have heard of the concept of multitasking haven't you? Why would the US need to abandon a deal 444 million customers to get a deal with out 64 million?
Basic fact fail there, 500 million includes us. If we leave, it won't include us.
Comments
Maybe we'll have a US President flying in to tell us how we've just GOT to join the Euro because if we stick with the Pound we'll be sent to the back of the queue... You just know it's gonna happen...
Remember it was the Tories that took us into Europe. It's the Tories who took us into the ERM. The Tories who signed Maastricht. It's the Tories now who are preparing the ground for the next wave of integration. Whenever a big decision is to be made the Tories will ALWAYS show their true europhile colours.
I don't see EURef as an existential question (unlike SINDYRef, which threatened a 300 year old country with considerable unforeseen consequences) so while I'm on balance REMAIN (the EU is far from perfect, but its chances of getting better are improved if we stay, and if it doesn't we can leave in 10 years) - and some of the LEAVE posters here (RCS1000, Richard Tyndal) had some perfectly sensible and workable alternatives. Now LEAVE's official model is the Albanian Plan I've given up on LEAVE.
And unlike some LEAVErs, don't feel the need to insult other posters.....I wonder what drives that?
Your guys seriously muffed up their response to Obama - get over it.
It wasn't as though they had to dig far into history (22 months...) to see how to handle it.....
Since it is so keen on outsourcing government to Europe, the time is clearly right for it to be liquidated, and replaced with something more fit for purpose, like a worn out department store being redeveloped as apartments.
Who will put it out of our misery?
US president Barack Obama has hit back after Boris Johnson's comments about his "part-Kenyan" ancestry.
Mr Johnson said the removal of a bust of Churchill from Obama's office was seen by some as a sign of an "ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
The comments in an article for The Sun were branded "idiotic" and "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson.
Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference.
He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.
"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said.
"It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36112694
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2016/apr/22/martin-rowson-on-barack-obama-and-boris-johnson-cartoon#img-1
Downing Street is cockahoop tonight, not just because of President Obama's backing for the Remain campaign, but because of his elegant slapdown of Boris Johnson.
The president didn't just back the prime minister's case, but smoothly and -without breaking a sweat - took the most well-known leader of the Leave campaign down a peg or two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36115913
The same people that loathed Brown's inability to count, Blair's inability to tell the truth and the Home Office's inability to deal with migration.
The Tories are New Labour. The centrist mush that achieves very little party.
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down, increasingly dismissing Remainers as hypocrites, scare merchants, peddlers of special interests or out of touch, while the substance of what they say is all too often waved away. True, Remainers are not always averse to similar tactics themselves at times, but the tendency to kick the player not the ball is more routinised on the Leave side.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Serves him right for being arrogant and duplicitous, his legacy will reflect public opinion of him, not the last few toadies clinging to his coat tails.
I hope America is happy to be at the back of the queue when it comes to British diplomatic cover and British lives lost for their foreign policy adventures.
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
@GE2020
Yougov
% of a parties voters who say they have NOT read or seen a Shapespeare play
UKIP 40%
LABOUR 21%
CONSERVATIVE 20%
LIBDEM 19%
Its a view, I suppose......one most of us leave behind in the playground.....
Which newspaper do you agree with in totality?
SNP: 'The UK will share the pound'
UK: 'No, we won't'
SNP: 'The UK are making threats! Project Fear!'
LEAVE: 'The US will rush to do a Trade Deal with us'
US: 'No, we won't. Get in the queue behind the bigger blocs.'
LEAVE: 'The US are making threats! Project Fear!!
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength. Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!
Brexiters insist that we will get a fantastic new deal from America and the rest of the world. When America and the rest of the world encourage us not to do this – the G20 has already warned that Brexit would be a pretty bad idea – the same Brexiters tell them to shut up, that it’s our decision, and that they should have nothing to do with it.
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/eu-brexit-brexiters-boris-johnson
They're swamping our public services! (Even though they pay tax)
They're holding down wages for the low paid! (True)
DEY TOOK ERRR JERRRRBS!
I rarely read newspapers tbh, I bought the Racing Post this morning.
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgtR5tcW4AA6FFK.jpg
The US currently is one of our largest trading partners and we are one of the largest, occasionally the largest, direct investors in the US as they are in the UK.
Why didn't the Leave campaign politely and calmly just point this out? What is wrong with these people? And frankly, why didn't Cameron point it out? Does he like his country being treated as some sort of supplicant?
Probably because if someone did point it out, the media would prefer to pick off some scintillating piece of nonsense from some 'leaver' to grab attention instead.
There have been some well written responses to Obama's position - they are out there.
Grumeti, Coulsty, Peterhouse.
Win singles, e/w doubles and trebles.
More hope than confidence
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
Clinton. Nominee 1.065. POTUS. 1.375. Implied odds if nominee = 1.375/1.065 = 1.29. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.065/1.375 = 77.5%.
Trump. Nominee 1.44. POTUS. 6.5. Implied odds if nominee = 6.5/1.44 = 4.51. Implied % chance of POTUS if nominee 1.44/6.5 = 22.2%.
So if its Clinton v Trump, as once again appears increasingly likely, we have implied odds and percentages as follows.
Clinton 1.29. 77.5%
Trump 4.51. 22.2%
That's Clinton 2/7 Trump 7/2 in old money.
I know how badly Trump does in match ups with Clinton and also about his unfavourability ratings but in a two horse race that's quite a difference in price. I'm already on Trump for POTUS at much lower odds than currently available. I backed him at the top of the market at 4.32 and I'm not inclined to increase my position. If I was starting from scratch I would definitely back him at current POTUS odds 6.5 (6.4-6.6).
I'm sure you are capable of finding them if you want to.
BTW Carlotta, I've been looking back over this thread, do you ever sleep?
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!
The Tories are "in existence solely for the pursuit of power", which they intend to wield by "outsourcing government to Europe"...
And the leavers wonder why people think they are incoherent loons.
Some 'killer fact'
What was that about playing the ball and not the man?
He demands total loyalty as Tory leader himself in return, and expects things to return to "normal" after the referendum, yet he behaves like this.
Don't be surprised if quite a few Tories follow the example he's set.
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is a smokesscreen, it was impossible, and of all the things to criticise Cameron for, and there are many including economic failure, not living up to that absurd fantasy is not one.
He's wrong, but believes he's right and he's doing everything he can to win. Fine, lets beat him, call him out, but try as I might I cannot carry that through to this vision where any of the choices he had leads to a united and happy party, and I think a focus on that and hurt to the Tories once again risks the leave campaign looking like a Tory only affair, to our detriment.
Huzzah for St. George and Shakespeare!
I do still wonder how Obama's condescending and suspiciously British language will be viewed by the electorate. Worth also noting the vote is two months away still.
More importantly, I got a new 5* review today: "I can only recommend that everyone who likes British humour and fantasy buys" http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B01DOSP9ZK/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent
What a wise and tasteful reader.
Bullingdon Club reunions are going to be a bit 'frosty' in future.
Unfortunately, after Gove's speech this week I've given up any hope we'll see a sensible official LEAVE proposition - which is a pity, because if (when) REMAIN win, there are going to be a lot of angry disappointed people.
On the bright side, the prospect of PM Boris has been laid to rest.
Did LEAVE not think Cameron was going to fight this, and fight to win? Its not as though this was the first referendum he's fought. Its not as though this is the first referendum the US President has intervened in.....yet LEAVE appear to need to derive everything from first principles (and generally get it wrong) - have they not war gamed this?
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
And the leavers are the ones crying traitor.
There are ways to fight hard, and win, but to do so respectfully.
I think Cameron/Osborne smelt blood and they just couldn't resist putting the boot in.
They are no saints either.
That said, I do enjoy when froth on all sides gets contradictory, it's hilarious. The contrasting point our Cameron kowtowing to Obama or that Obama is doing his bidding is a good one, though in confident remain can cone back and top that.
Miss Vance, you're right. One cannot unboil an egg. But that doesn't, in itself, mean boiling an egg is an unwise course of action.
During the course of that 10-15 years, if it does develop in an uncongenial way, that would damage our democracy and economy. If we leave, the EU can integrate further as it wishes, and we can strike our own trade deals and make our own laws.
Of course, I also believe the eurozone and EU will collapse at some point, so the sooner we disentangle ourselves from it, the better.
Your ability to twist what doesn't suit you is very impressive.
I merely pointed it out so people could see the irony, I never said fact at all.
Now those gestures were done in private (apart from the fact that the same Downing Street officials were listening in on both conversations - whether the foreign leaders realised this is questionable). A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
"Hey, guys, abandon that deal for 500 million customers and get to work on a UK deal right now, ok?"
You are saying they we would only be allowed back on much worse terms than we currently enjoy? What terms are those then, the ones where we pay net somewhere in the region of £7 billion a year? Or the fact that we are a net importer of goods from the EU?
You have been on here constantly deriding Leavers yet your posts are delusional.
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?
Basic fact fail there, 500 million includes us. If we leave, it won't include us.