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Poor ratings for Johnson, Patel and Starmer from Ipsos-MORI – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Macron is introducing a bill to increase France's foreign aid budget from 0.37% of GDP in 2017 to 0.55% in 2022:

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1423273760417742852

    I wonder why he chose 0.55%, specifically?

    Greetings

    You were absolutely right about Sola Soho

    The best restaurant experience I have had since before Ye Plague (not that there have been many during, but still)

    Generally excellent, sometimes mind blowingly good. The demi glace on the duck. Ohhhhhh

    However, it is NOT CHEAP. Jeez
    Glad you liked it. Yes, it's not cheap by any means - but prices of all good restaurants have increased hugely. I don't blame them - their costs have gone up a lot, they've no doubt got big losses to make up, they can't get staff easily, etc etc. You can fairly easily pay that much for a so-so meal in London.
    Yes, vastly raised prices are definitely a thing

    Sheekey's has basically doubled.

    I guess they are relying on a lot of diners with savings willing to splurge, but it cannot last
    Interesting here in Spain restaurant prices at all levels seem pretty much unchanged. For quality and price way ahead of the UK equivalents.
    That's because Spain's restaurant sector is dependant on tourists, while the UK's is not.
    Hmm, not so sure about that. The Spanish restaurants dependent on tourists tend to be pretty awful. It's the ones the Spaniards go to which are often superb.
    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.
    Actually on this Mr Nabavi is spot on. I live near a tourist zone but one which is largely Spanish tourists. The top local restaurants do get Spanish tourist trade but they also open year round, have very high standards, are cheap by British standards but the quality is way higher. The best restaurants in my area attract those who live here all or most of the year and in most of the cases I'm thinking of are family run and of very long standing.
    Demand for restaurant meals in the UK is above normal levels, because people aren't going on holiday abroad. Therefore prices are up.

    Demand for restaurant meals in Spain is below normal levels, because tourists aren't arriving in Spain and eating said meals. Therefore prices are down.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Positivity plateaux.

    Cases
    People tested positive
    Latest data provided on 5 August 2021

    Daily
    30,215
    Last 7 days
    183,406arrow -21,263 (-10.4%)

    Virus tests conducted
    Latest data provided on 4 August 2021

    Daily
    845,680
    Last 7 days
    5,339,972arrow -650,352 (-10.9%)
  • tlg86 said:

    On the subject of the women's football...

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/womens-olympic-tournament/story/4446142/olympics-2020-sweden-vs-canada-gold-medal-match-moved-due-to-heat-concerns

    The Tokyo 2020 women's Olympic soccer gold-medal match between Canada and Sweden has been moved from its 11 a.m. local time on Friday (10 p.m. ET, Thursday) start to 9 p.m. local time (8 a.m. ET, Friday) after both teams expressed concern about playing in the Japanese heat.

    Would have been interesting to see if this would have happened with the USA in the final given that the kick off time was clearly set to appeal to the US market.

    Rio Ferdinand will tell you that England would have won their 2002 world cup QF against Brazil if the match had taken place in the evening rather than the afternoon.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    edited August 2021
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    What is quite strange with this ISPOS-MORI poll, to me anyway, is that 39% "Dont Know" about Sir Keir, whereas the last two polls by them had 23% and 27% saying so - The more people see him the more they don't know? Is that usual?

    I can explain. A person has an unfavourable view of him (eg you). Then they get to know him better. Now they are not so sure they dislike him (we're off you now). He seems ok. However they can't say they positively like him either. It's neither like nor dislike. So they move to 'don't know'. The holding pen. They could break to 'like' or 'dislike' depending on their impression as they get to know him even better than they do now (having got to know him a little better).
    Or they might stay in the bland, wish washy nothingness of ‘DK’ forever!
    I actually don't see much wrong with that. There's plenty of high profile public figures who I can't say I like and yet I can't say I dislike either. I'll give you just one - Kirsty Wark - but there are loads. And it certainly includes politicians. Rishi Sunak, Ed Davey, Andy Burnham, to name one from each party that spring to mind and who I'm ambivalent about. If surveyed about those 3 I'd answer 'don't know' if I was being truthful.
    I don’t think it is a good place to be for someone wanting to convince people he’s the man to replace the current leader of the country, personally.
    The vibe for SKS and Lab is a little more positive now, though, I'm sensing. The direction of travel (imo) is gap closing and a transition from No Hope to Competitive is underway. I've said a few times that I'll be laying my long @ 8 'Starmer Next PM' position back at under 4 within a year and I'll say it again now - I'll be laying my long @ 8 'Starmer Next PM' position back at under 4 within a year.
  • AlistairM said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    Where are the chips?
    On the steak.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    DougSeal said:

    30,215 cases reported in the UK today compared with 31,117 reported last Thursday. Still dropping, just.

    Meanwhile Australia's figure has increased to 304. 100 times less than us, but still worse news.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Carnyx said:

    philiph said:

    On topic, Sunak's going to become as unpopular as an ex with the clap if he keeps the triple lock, cuts the UC uplift, and generally puts up payroll taxes.

    When do we find out and can we bet on it/them?
    Well the UC uplift ends next month, so that will be pretty soon either way.

    As for the rest, pass, there's talk of moving to budget to next year now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/16/covid-impact-forces-sunak-to-consider-delaying-budget-until-next-year
    The triple lock does need to go - though aware it appeals to much of the Tories base. Though in the spirit of fairness if I end up paying more tax whilst the oldies are showered with goodies than the resentment will just build.
    Indeed. At some point the younger voters will finally turn out and vote.

    I mean, just get rid of the NI exemption for pensionable age workers for starters.
    That really is an obvious (if painful) place to start. Also fully logical as there is no longer an age at which retirement from the workplace is taken. Gone are the days of 60 female / 65 male. People can opt to continue in employment and so should continue to make the same contributions.
    Rationalising National Insurance does make sense. But I have never understood PB Tories' animosity to the triple lock. The full state pension is less than £10,000 a year which is less than the minimum wage. It is as mysterious as all those backbenchers who used to demand concessions for garden centres.
    It'd make more sense to merge NI and income tax, and abolish the allowances for bank interest and share dividends, and tax income fairly. And leave the triple lock.
    Would you retain the employers NI on behalf of employees?
  • The cricket to resume in 5 minutes.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    AlistairM said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    Where are the chips?
    They're the little potatoes in the silver cup.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Not sure about your last point here. Last in France a couple of years ago and even with the help of our friends' local knowledge we found dining in France to be both expensive and dull - cetainly not comparable to the range of options and quality you now get in Spain pretty much anywhere. Italy not so bad but certainly not as varied as Spain and again quite a bit more expensive.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    Would gammon hued be more acceptable?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Where is this local knowledge of which you speak available? Is it some well fed señor on an esquina tapping his nose and whispering out the name of establishments to the select few?

    For anyone remotely interested there's a whole world of information out there on good places to eat in Spain.
    Yes, you can find good places to eat in Spain if you do your research, as you can anywhere nowadays. Most tourists don't. And some of the best restaurants in Madrid, say, are really well hidden; you won't find them just by walking round and looking at menus. And yes, the best way to find them and enjoy them when you get there is to be taken by some well-fed señor.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    DougSeal said:

    30,215 cases reported in the UK today compared with 31,117 reported last Thursday. Still dropping, just.

    Meanwhile Australia's figure has increased to 304. 100 times less than us, but still worse news.
    I'm sure arresting people on park benches is helping there.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
    I had some excellent meals out in Granada, which was my last Spanish holiday. But my wife (who spent some years in Spain) always has a good idea of where to go to.

    One thing that has always struck me is how well-dressed the Spanish are, when they go out to eat.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    Would gammon hued be more acceptable?
    I didn't dare go there.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.



  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    30,215 cases reported in the UK today compared with 31,117 reported last Thursday. Still dropping, just.

    Meanwhile Australia's figure has increased to 304. 100 times less than us, but still worse news.
    Cases going in the wrong direction, several weeks into lockdown, with an almost completely immune naive population is not the most fantastic news it has to be said.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    AlistairM said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    Where are the chips?
    On the steak.
    Are you sure? I think those are onion rings.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    30,215 cases reported in the UK today compared with 31,117 reported last Thursday. Still dropping, just.

    Meanwhile Australia's figure has increased to 304. 100 times less than us, but still worse news.
    I'm sure arresting people on park benches is helping there.
    As I said this morning, after reading more measures being employed there and seeing FB posts from Aussie friends....the place is f**cked. For at least another six months.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
    Let us pretend that your ridiculous assertion that there are two completely different restaurant sectors in Spain is true.

    Even if that were the case, lower demand in the tourist sector would still push down prices in the restaurants for locals sector. Why? Because they both use the same inputs. That kitchen porter who isn't needed at Joe's Fish and Chips is now competing for a dishwashing job in at Jose's.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Told you the US performance at the Olympics was going to get politicised...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Macron is introducing a bill to increase France's foreign aid budget from 0.37% of GDP in 2017 to 0.55% in 2022:

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1423273760417742852

    I wonder why he chose 0.55%, specifically?

    Greetings

    You were absolutely right about Sola Soho

    The best restaurant experience I have had since before Ye Plague (not that there have been many during, but still)

    Generally excellent, sometimes mind blowingly good. The demi glace on the duck. Ohhhhhh

    However, it is NOT CHEAP. Jeez
    Glad you liked it. Yes, it's not cheap by any means - but prices of all good restaurants have increased hugely. I don't blame them - their costs have gone up a lot, they've no doubt got big losses to make up, they can't get staff easily, etc etc. You can fairly easily pay that much for a so-so meal in London.
    Yes, vastly raised prices are definitely a thing

    Sheekey's has basically doubled.

    I guess they are relying on a lot of diners with savings willing to splurge, but it cannot last
    Interesting here in Spain restaurant prices at all levels seem pretty much unchanged. For quality and price way ahead of the UK equivalents.
    That's because Spain's restaurant sector is dependant on tourists, while the UK's is not.
    Hmm, not so sure about that. The Spanish restaurants dependent on tourists tend to be pretty awful. It's the ones the Spaniards go to which are often superb.
    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.
    Actually on this Mr Nabavi is spot on. I live near a tourist zone but one which is largely Spanish tourists. The top local restaurants do get Spanish tourist trade but they also open year round, have very high standards, are cheap by British standards but the quality is way higher. The best restaurants in my area attract those who live here all or most of the year and in most of the cases I'm thinking of are family run and of very long standing.
    Demand for restaurant meals in the UK is above normal levels, because people aren't going on holiday abroad. Therefore prices are up.

    Demand for restaurant meals in Spain is below normal levels, because tourists aren't arriving in Spain and eating said meals. Therefore prices are down.
    Yes, you and Richard Nabavi are at x purposes. He is on about quality and you are talking about price.

    All back on track now after this.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
    Let us pretend that your ridiculous assertion that there are two completely different restaurant sectors in Spain is true.

    Even if that were the case, lower demand in the tourist sector would still push down prices in the restaurants for locals sector. Why? Because they both use the same inputs. That kitchen porter who isn't needed at Joe's Fish and Chips is now competing for a dishwashing job in at Jose's.
    You do know that tourists are not evenly distributed around the country, right?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    felix said:



    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    That was some leap. You're an old, white, Tory. As are so many on PB.

    It was not a huge deductive leap for me to work out that that was what you are. And I was right. Oh and you're gay, thanks for telling me.

    And old, white, (gay or not gay) Tories have shown themselves to be bewildered by Lab's latest marketing strategy or rather, by Jon Trickett's tweet.

    Get over yourself and embrace the truth would be my advice.
    Apparently it was pretty hard for you to understand the other day that I also voted remain. Maybe you could try removing your own blinkered views about race/age/sexuality before handing out unsolicited advice to others.

    Jeez if leaping to conclusions was an Olympic sport you would win gold ("gold" is ok to use, is it?).

    The other day you said you loathed the EU. Which is pretty funny as you live in the EU regardless of how you voted although if I were using my Sherlock Holmes powers again (easy when it comes to you) I would say you voted Remain because you wanted the EU to maintain links to your homeland rather than anything else and if so fair enough.

    And now, because I correctly identify the preponderance of old, white, Tory PB-ers, of which you are one such, I have blinkered views about race/age/sexuality [??].

    You are an old, white, Tory who can't understand a tweet aimed at Lab's supporters who include many people who are old and white but perhaps not so many as Cons' supporters or PB denizens.

    You are looking to be outraged where there is no reason to be outraged.
    And you are pretty thick it seems. Once you use any 'ism' to sneer as you do you give carte 'noir' [sic] for all of it. For the record I understand the tweet - not completely gaga - just think it is pretty lame, like your attempts to gloss over your prejudices. Clearly you don't get it and never will. Such is life.
    Yes but how did the you being gay thing fit into it all?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited August 2021

    The cricket to resume in 5 minutes.

    No chance. Rain is imminent.

    Edit: Back on for one ball I see. Did nobody check the rainfall radar?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Where is this local knowledge of which you speak available? Is it some well fed señor on an esquina tapping his nose and whispering out the name of establishments to the select few?

    For anyone remotely interested there's a whole world of information out there on good places to eat in Spain.
    Yes, you can find good places to eat in Spain if you do your research, as you can anywhere nowadays. Most tourists don't. And some of the best restaurants in Madrid, say, are really well hidden; you won't find them just by walking round and looking at menus. And yes, the best way to find them and enjoy them when you get there is to be taken by some well-fed señor.
    It's a well known fact that Google doesn't work in Spain.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Has anyone ever seen @Leon and Trump in the same room? :wink:

    Though I do have to admit, Leon's prediction that China would top the golds looks to be spot on - as I noted at the time, the odds were attractive (but I followed my rule of not betting on things that I don't know much about, here the strength of the Chinese team).
    I've been too afraid to ask @Leon or anyone else but...what exactly does 'woke' mean?
    Now you're just gaslighting us.
    Seriously. What does it mean?
    If you substitute "political correctness gone mad", controlling for grammar, you will get a pretty good idea.

    ie it means anything that any right-thinking (esp. a Felix-type old, white, Tory) person finds objectionable about today's society.

    Equal rights, against racism, pro-diverse, etc.
    No one complains about equal rights or advocates racism. Woke goes further than that. Woke is Leeds City Council explaining how parkin and tea are racist. Woke is forcing GNER to apologise for using the trans-exclusionary phrase 'Ladies and Gentlemen'. Woke is reducing absolutely everything to identity politics.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.



    What's your definition of woke?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    MrEd said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Told you the US performance at the Olympics was going to get politicised...
    And I told you that it was the USWNT that was getting all the headlines :smile:

  • The cricket to resume in 5 minutes.

    No chance. Rain is imminent.

    Edit: Back on for one ball I see. Did nobody check the rainfall radar?
    Apparently not.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    DougSeal said:

    AlistairM said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    Where are the chips?
    On the steak.
    Are you sure? I think those are onion rings.
    I thought they were onion rings too. If I were to pay £72 for a main course then I would expect it to require a level of culinary skill that I do not possess. Frying or grilling a steak and chucking a couple of onion rings on the top is not it. Someone will pay it though, of course.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Macron is introducing a bill to increase France's foreign aid budget from 0.37% of GDP in 2017 to 0.55% in 2022:

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1423273760417742852

    I wonder why he chose 0.55%, specifically?

    Greetings

    You were absolutely right about Sola Soho

    The best restaurant experience I have had since before Ye Plague (not that there have been many during, but still)

    Generally excellent, sometimes mind blowingly good. The demi glace on the duck. Ohhhhhh

    However, it is NOT CHEAP. Jeez
    Glad you liked it. Yes, it's not cheap by any means - but prices of all good restaurants have increased hugely. I don't blame them - their costs have gone up a lot, they've no doubt got big losses to make up, they can't get staff easily, etc etc. You can fairly easily pay that much for a so-so meal in London.
    Yes, vastly raised prices are definitely a thing

    Sheekey's has basically doubled.

    I guess they are relying on a lot of diners with savings willing to splurge, but it cannot last
    Interesting here in Spain restaurant prices at all levels seem pretty much unchanged. For quality and price way ahead of the UK equivalents.
    That's because Spain's restaurant sector is dependant on tourists, while the UK's is not.
    Hmm, not so sure about that. The Spanish restaurants dependent on tourists tend to be pretty awful. It's the ones the Spaniards go to which are often superb.
    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.
    Actually on this Mr Nabavi is spot on. I live near a tourist zone but one which is largely Spanish tourists. The top local restaurants do get Spanish tourist trade but they also open year round, have very high standards, are cheap by British standards but the quality is way higher. The best restaurants in my area attract those who live here all or most of the year and in most of the cases I'm thinking of are family run and of very long standing.
    Demand for restaurant meals in the UK is above normal levels, because people aren't going on holiday abroad. Therefore prices are up.

    Demand for restaurant meals in Spain is below normal levels, because tourists aren't arriving in Spain and eating said meals. Therefore prices are down.
    Prices in Spain are flat not down - pretty much, in my area, the same as they've been for the past 7/8 years. During that time tourist numbers have varied in both directions. The tourist restaurants are largely confined to specific areas in the Costas and some of the big cities. However, there are many more which rely largely on local custom. We are building in a small village about 15 kms from the coast. A nothing special small town of 5000 or less - it boasts several tapas bars, 2 medium quality Spanish places, an Italian, and a top quality family run restaurant which is part of a small 2 star Hotel with a largely business/work based clentele. Most of the other small and medium towns - the biggest is about 20k people can boast at least as much and more. All largely apart from the tourist eateries on the coast.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Macron is introducing a bill to increase France's foreign aid budget from 0.37% of GDP in 2017 to 0.55% in 2022:

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1423273760417742852

    I wonder why he chose 0.55%, specifically?

    Greetings

    You were absolutely right about Sola Soho

    The best restaurant experience I have had since before Ye Plague (not that there have been many during, but still)

    Generally excellent, sometimes mind blowingly good. The demi glace on the duck. Ohhhhhh

    However, it is NOT CHEAP. Jeez
    Glad you liked it. Yes, it's not cheap by any means - but prices of all good restaurants have increased hugely. I don't blame them - their costs have gone up a lot, they've no doubt got big losses to make up, they can't get staff easily, etc etc. You can fairly easily pay that much for a so-so meal in London.
    Yes, vastly raised prices are definitely a thing

    Sheekey's has basically doubled.

    I guess they are relying on a lot of diners with savings willing to splurge, but it cannot last
    Interesting here in Spain restaurant prices at all levels seem pretty much unchanged. For quality and price way ahead of the UK equivalents.
    That's because Spain's restaurant sector is dependant on tourists, while the UK's is not.
    Hmm, not so sure about that. The Spanish restaurants dependent on tourists tend to be pretty awful. It's the ones the Spaniards go to which are often superb.
    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.
    Actually on this Mr Nabavi is spot on. I live near a tourist zone but one which is largely Spanish tourists. The top local restaurants do get Spanish tourist trade but they also open year round, have very high standards, are cheap by British standards but the quality is way higher. The best restaurants in my area attract those who live here all or most of the year and in most of the cases I'm thinking of are family run and of very long standing.
    Demand for restaurant meals in the UK is above normal levels, because people aren't going on holiday abroad. Therefore prices are up.

    Demand for restaurant meals in Spain is below normal levels, because tourists aren't arriving in Spain and eating said meals. Therefore prices are down.
    Yes, you and Richard Nabavi are at x purposes. He is on about quality and you are talking about price.

    All back on track now after this.
    I think @rcs1000 is mainly talking about the recent change in prices, on which I agree with him, although he over-estimates the vacation factor as it relates to the UK. It's not only Brits holidaying in the UK which is providing the demand, it's also pent-up demand from many months of lockdown.
  • The cricket to resume in 5 minutes.

    No chance. Rain is imminent.

    Edit: Back on for one ball I see. Did nobody check the rainfall radar?
    https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/observation/rainfall-radar#?map=Rainfall&fcTime=1628132400&zoom=9&lon=-0.41&lat=51.27
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
    Let us pretend that your ridiculous assertion that there are two completely different restaurant sectors in Spain is true.

    Even if that were the case, lower demand in the tourist sector would still push down prices in the restaurants for locals sector. Why? Because they both use the same inputs. That kitchen porter who isn't needed at Joe's Fish and Chips is now competing for a dishwashing job in at Jose's.
    You do know that tourists are not evenly distributed around the country, right?
    Let's go back to the beginning of this discussion.

    The question was: why have restaurant prices risen in the UK but not Spain?

    That's the question I was answering.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    DougSeal said:

    30,215 cases reported in the UK today compared with 31,117 reported last Thursday. Still dropping, just.

    Meanwhile Australia's figure has increased to 304. 100 times less than us, but still worse news.
    It is now at the numbers where it becomes very difficult to trace how everyone got it. How many are asymptomatic on top of this number? Going to grow massively there in the next couple of weeks I would think. Given their zero-Covid approach they are going to be in lockdown for a long time.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    Would gammon hued be more acceptable?
    Nah - I'd much prefer deep fried tartan for the Scotch contingent. :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    A best selling trashy novelist, and I mean proper best selling, creator of Harry Bosch. Ok for passing the time on a sun lounger though the series is a bit exhausted now. I prefer Robert Crais in that particular line.
    Ah yes, Bosch. I used to devour them on holiday. Ages ago now but I think I recall he was standard 'tough guy with a heart' material but with the quirk that he knocked up a good pasta (and quite often did).
    I am now astounded that I used to hang on Patricia Cornwell's every book. The past is indeed a foreign country.
    Yep - read those too. Kay Scarpetta. Solid work. And I'm confident of low-browing you off the court with Robert Walker's "Jessica Coran" potboilers. There's no way you would have spent hours with them, but I did.
    The Sue Grafton books are my favourite trash.
    She started writing them in the 80's, and kept on going for decades, still setting them in the 80s. Quite the nostalgia trip.
    Och, I'd put them a level above trash, I've reread a few of them which is my personal seal of approval. There's a strand of quality thriller/tec writing (mainly US) which goes back probably to the 50s, Ross McDonald, Tony Hillerman, Laurence Block, Sarah Paretsky, that I'd put in the 'decent' folder. Chandler and Hammett had a very good influence I think.
    I have high standards when it comes to trash. :smile:
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Thought Banksy had been a bit quiet recently..




    I did think about this the other day when there was that discussion on Scottish population numbers and thinking there could be a win-win-win situation here for the migrants, Nicola S and the UK Government.

    Basically, you say to the migrants, "look, we will let you stay - and you can also work - on condition you live in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as well, actually) for a minimum of 15 years and give up your rights to live in rUK."

    Helps the migrants obviously. Helps Nicola because she wants to increase the diversity of Scotland anyway plus its population. And helps the UK Government because shoves the problem out of its heartlands and into the SNP'ss hands.

    Should be fairly easy to enforce as well. You have no right to housing, schools, hospitals etc outside Scotland (or NI) so a fairly easy barrier.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Oh come on Nabavi, you've completely ignored my point about Brits not going on vacation, and therefore boosting demand for restaurant meals in the UK. And you also seem to believe that in Spain, restaurants fall neatly into two categories, which do in any way affect each other.
    I agree that Brits not going on vacation, combined with limited supply and increased costs, explains why prices have increased here in the last few months. We were talking about the relative quality of the restaurants, and the reason why you can (but don't always, if you're a tourist) eat particularly well at a reasonable cost in Spain has nothing to do with tourists, it's the fact that the Spanish eat out a lot and are a nation of food-lovers.
    I had some excellent meals out in Granada, which was my last Spanish holiday. But my wife (who spent some years in Spain) always has a good idea of where to go to.

    One thing that has always struck me is how well-dressed the Spanish are, when they go out to eat.
    One or two places still frown on shorts!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    A best selling trashy novelist, and I mean proper best selling, creator of Harry Bosch. Ok for passing the time on a sun lounger though the series is a bit exhausted now. I prefer Robert Crais in that particular line.
    Ah yes, Bosch. I used to devour them on holiday. Ages ago now but I think I recall he was standard 'tough guy with a heart' material but with the quirk that he knocked up a good pasta (and quite often did).
    I am now astounded that I used to hang on Patricia Cornwell's every book. The past is indeed a foreign country.
    Yep - read those too. Kay Scarpetta. Solid work. And I'm confident of low-browing you off the court with Robert Walker's "Jessica Coran" potboilers. There's no way you would have spent hours with them, but I did.
    The Sue Grafton books are my favourite trash.
    She started writing them in the 80's, and kept on going for decades, still setting them in the 80s. Quite the nostalgia trip.
    Ah, heard off but never read any. One of the 1st with a female (private) dick apparently per a quick wiki. And she didn't do a "Z is for ..." for some reason. Stopped at Y.
    My son has started reading them, which feels strange.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Pulpstar said:

    Positivity plateaux.

    Cases
    People tested positive
    Latest data provided on 5 August 2021

    Daily
    30,215
    Last 7 days
    183,406arrow -21,263 (-10.4%)

    Virus tests conducted
    Latest data provided on 4 August 2021

    Daily
    845,680
    Last 7 days
    5,339,972arrow -650,352 (-10.9%)

    Latest daily hospitalisation number is down ~200 (23%) compared to the week before. So the big drops in cases is feeding through now to hospitalisations. Cases plateauing but due to vaccines it is manageable. I've seen several news stories about people who are seriously ill or die because they refused the vaccine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    No pineapple, at least.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:



    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    That was some leap. You're an old, white, Tory. As are so many on PB.

    It was not a huge deductive leap for me to work out that that was what you are. And I was right. Oh and you're gay, thanks for telling me.

    And old, white, (gay or not gay) Tories have shown themselves to be bewildered by Lab's latest marketing strategy or rather, by Jon Trickett's tweet.

    Get over yourself and embrace the truth would be my advice.
    Apparently it was pretty hard for you to understand the other day that I also voted remain. Maybe you could try removing your own blinkered views about race/age/sexuality before handing out unsolicited advice to others.

    Jeez if leaping to conclusions was an Olympic sport you would win gold ("gold" is ok to use, is it?).

    The other day you said you loathed the EU. Which is pretty funny as you live in the EU regardless of how you voted although if I were using my Sherlock Holmes powers again (easy when it comes to you) I would say you voted Remain because you wanted the EU to maintain links to your homeland rather than anything else and if so fair enough.

    And now, because I correctly identify the preponderance of old, white, Tory PB-ers, of which you are one such, I have blinkered views about race/age/sexuality [??].

    You are an old, white, Tory who can't understand a tweet aimed at Lab's supporters who include many people who are old and white but perhaps not so many as Cons' supporters or PB denizens.

    You are looking to be outraged where there is no reason to be outraged.
    And you are pretty thick it seems. Once you use any 'ism' to sneer as you do you give carte 'noir' [sic] for all of it. For the record I understand the tweet - not completely gaga - just think it is pretty lame, like your attempts to gloss over your prejudices. Clearly you don't get it and never will. Such is life.
    Yes but how did the you being gay thing fit into it all?
    If i had a pink € for every time some fool has asked that.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    'segmented marketing' assures me that it is, in fact, really, really clever.

    Anyone who has ever canvassed will know that the aim is not to convert the opposition, but to ensure that friendlies remain friendly.

    As such no one gives a flying f*ck about what old white Tory blokes on PB think, save for being delighted that they are spending the entire thread talking about it, that is.
    Lol - explanation number 101 why Remain f***** up the Referendum. Didn't get it then ...still don't get it.
    I have absolutely no doubt why Remain lost the referendum.
    Well, there was the matter of a large number of lies told by the Leave campaigns. Lies that they continue to tell, while at the same time berating their opponants for failing to agree with them. Names like Arron Banks, JRM, BoJo and Farage will be associated with arrogance, dishonesty and ignorance long after they are themselves pushing up the daisies (and in BoJos case probably several other flowers). Its a legacy of contemptible shame and when the country changes course it will make 1997 look like a small bump in the road for the right.

    Eventually you will be massacred. You know it and you will deserve it.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    AlistairM said:

    DougSeal said:

    AlistairM said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    Where are the chips?
    On the steak.
    Are you sure? I think those are onion rings.
    I thought they were onion rings too. If I were to pay £72 for a main course then I would expect it to require a level of culinary skill that I do not possess. Frying or grilling a steak and chucking a couple of onion rings on the top is not it. Someone will pay it though, of course.
    My basic rule is to not order anything in a restaurant I think I can cook better at home. There is only one restaurant where I regularly order steak.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Has anyone ever seen @Leon and Trump in the same room? :wink:

    Though I do have to admit, Leon's prediction that China would top the golds looks to be spot on - as I noted at the time, the odds were attractive (but I followed my rule of not betting on things that I don't know much about, here the strength of the Chinese team).
    I've been too afraid to ask @Leon or anyone else but...what exactly does 'woke' mean?
    Leon is who NOT to ask unless you have the strength and determination to forget the answer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MrEd said:

    Thought Banksy had been a bit quiet recently..




    I did think about this the other day when there was that discussion on Scottish population numbers and thinking there could be a win-win-win situation here for the migrants, Nicola S and the UK Government.

    Basically, you say to the migrants, "look, we will let you stay - and you can also work - on condition you live in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as well, actually) for a minimum of 15 years and give up your rights to live in rUK."

    Helps the migrants obviously. Helps Nicola because she wants to increase the diversity of Scotland anyway plus its population. And helps the UK Government because shoves the problem out of its heartlands and into the SNP'ss hands.

    Should be fairly easy to enforce as well. You have no right to housing, schools, hospitals etc outside Scotland (or NI) so a fairly easy barrier.
    That would necessitate BJ actually talking to Nicola, and devolving a fair amount control over immigration to Scotland. The auspices are not good..
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Spain is massively more dependent on tourism than the UK. And pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaraunts.

    By contrast, Brits not going on vacation increases demand for restaurant meals.

    Come on Nabavi, this isn't rocket surgery.

    Yes, exactly, pretty much all of those tourists eat in restaurants, which are mostly rubbish restaurants aimed at tourists. Sure, they're cheap, but if you're a tourist in Spain and don't know have local knowledge about where to go, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a meal which is mediocre at best, and worse than the equivalents in Italy, Greece, or even France.
    Where is this local knowledge of which you speak available? Is it some well fed señor on an esquina tapping his nose and whispering out the name of establishments to the select few?

    For anyone remotely interested there's a whole world of information out there on good places to eat in Spain.
    Yes, you can find good places to eat in Spain if you do your research, as you can anywhere nowadays. Most tourists don't. And some of the best restaurants in Madrid, say, are really well hidden; you won't find them just by walking round and looking at menus. And yes, the best way to find them and enjoy them when you get there is to be taken by some well-fed señor.
    It's a well known fact that Google doesn't work in Spain.
    And a lesser known fact that finding a good restaurant in Spain using Google, or Trip Adviser, in English, is not easy. If you read Spanish and can use the Spanish versions of the websites, you'd do much better.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Nigelb said:

    Bona fide QTWTAIN. @JohnRentoul.

    'Would you pay £87 for Tom Kerridge’s steak and chips?'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/would-you-pay-87-for-tom-kerridges-steak-and-chips-vhmr8pnp7

    No pineapple, at least.
    The equivalent here - and probably better - would be, maybe 25€ tops
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,789
    Carnyx said:

    philiph said:

    On topic, Sunak's going to become as unpopular as an ex with the clap if he keeps the triple lock, cuts the UC uplift, and generally puts up payroll taxes.

    When do we find out and can we bet on it/them?
    Well the UC uplift ends next month, so that will be pretty soon either way.

    As for the rest, pass, there's talk of moving to budget to next year now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/16/covid-impact-forces-sunak-to-consider-delaying-budget-until-next-year
    The triple lock does need to go - though aware it appeals to much of the Tories base. Though in the spirit of fairness if I end up paying more tax whilst the oldies are showered with goodies than the resentment will just build.
    Indeed. At some point the younger voters will finally turn out and vote.

    I mean, just get rid of the NI exemption for pensionable age workers for starters.
    That really is an obvious (if painful) place to start. Also fully logical as there is no longer an age at which retirement from the workplace is taken. Gone are the days of 60 female / 65 male. People can opt to continue in employment and so should continue to make the same contributions.
    Rationalising National Insurance does make sense. But I have never understood PB Tories' animosity to the triple lock. The full state pension is less than £10,000 a year which is less than the minimum wage. It is as mysterious as all those backbenchers who used to demand concessions for garden centres.
    It'd make more sense to merge NI and income tax, and abolish the allowances for bank interest and share dividends, and tax income fairly. And leave the triple lock.
    I agree with that exception for the allowance on bank interest and dividends.

    Re bank interest I have no objection to the allowance being removed other than it removes the need for collecting peanuts and the associated cost of collecting peanuts so it might make sense to have an allowance just for that reason.

    Re dividends. Where to start. Gordon Brown completely screwed this up just so he could nobble then pension funds. George Osborne promised to put this right, but he lied and pretended he had. As a consequence the link between dividends and Corporation Tax/ACT is completely broken now. The £5000 helped for small shareholders. Philip Hammond made it worse by reducing it to £2000. For all the buggering around you might as well eliminate it other than the admin factor, but in reality the sensible set up that had worked for decades should be reintroduced. Meddling chancellors!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Covid Fact Check UK
    @fact_covid

    680 England hospital admissions reported for Tuesday versus 816 last week, so a drop of 17%.

    The seven-day average falls to 677 compared with 697 the previous day and 793 last week (down 15%).

    4,894 beds occupied vs 4,944 yesterday and 5,056 last Thursday.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1423304730093182976
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    2 days of infections increasing in the UK, 16 days out from unlockdown. So it looks tentatively as though there will be some effect on infections, but I wonder how big, and to what extent that will feed through to hospitalizations and mortality. Hoping not much at all.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    .
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Has anyone ever seen @Leon and Trump in the same room? :wink:

    Though I do have to admit, Leon's prediction that China would top the golds looks to be spot on - as I noted at the time, the odds were attractive (but I followed my rule of not betting on things that I don't know much about, here the strength of the Chinese team).
    I've been too afraid to ask @Leon or anyone else but...what exactly does 'woke' mean?
    Now you're just gaslighting us.
    Seriously. What does it mean?
    If you substitute "political correctness gone mad", controlling for grammar, you will get a pretty good idea.

    ie it means anything that any right-thinking (esp. a Felix-type old, white, Tory) person finds objectionable about today's society.

    Equal rights, against racism, pro-diverse, etc.
    No one complains about equal rights or advocates racism. Woke goes further than that. Woke is Leeds City Council explaining how parkin and tea are racist. Woke is forcing GNER to apologise for using the trans-exclusionary phrase 'Ladies and Gentlemen'. Woke is reducing absolutely everything to identity politics.
    Thanks for the precise examples. And they are your examples. And they are examples of things are 0.004% of real life if that, are often apocryphal, and often invite the response "so what?"

    Far too uncommon to get its own word.

    Meanwhile in popular usage it means precisely what I said it means.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Cicero said:

    Well, there was the matter of a large number of lies told by the Leave campaigns. Lies that they continue to tell, while at the same time berating their opponants for failing to agree with them.

    If you want some light relief, Brexiteer Iain Martin has written a column in The Times today which is one in a series entitled "This Brexit is not the Brexit I wanted when I told people to vote for Brexit..."

    It's hilarious, and one of many to come as one by one the advocates recant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Not sure the US had a women's Olympic football team back then...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    DougSeal said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.



    What's your definition of woke?
    Good question. TBH, I couldn't give you a precise definition. But, to me, it is like the famous Supreme Court line on pornography - I know it when I see it.

    And what would I mean here? Well, in this case, woke to me would have several aspects (1) trying to abolish / change the basic structures of a society to suit a particular agenda - gender, family etc - in a certain direction (2) using pressure and / or force to force compliance and (3) attempting to dictate not only what people do but also think.

    I would also add (4), which is to institute a new form of discrimination as a ying to the yang of the "old" discrimination and justifying it under the concept of "equity". In that regards, Kinablu's comments about anti-wokesters wanting a return to the 1950s is rather ironic because it is the "wokesters" who are looking to push us back towards acceptance of open discrimination.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    I don't think that's sufficient to explain the difference.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.
    The live and genuine debate about trans issues is nothing to do with "woke" as it is used most commonly. And it is a debate with merit on each side.

    It is used, quite a lot on here for some reason, to mean political correctness gone mad.

    Just as it has been by reactionaries down the ages.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TimT said:

    2 days of infections increasing in the UK, 16 days out from unlockdown. So it looks tentatively as though there will be some effect on infections, but I wonder how big, and to what extent that will feed through to hospitalizations and mortality. Hoping not much at all.

    Indeed - clearly good as the vaccines are at the business end - they are less effective at preventing infection. In this respect those of us for whatever reason who prefer to avoid Covid may well have a more permanent lifestyle change to contemplate involving masks and avoiding crowds, etc, etc. I doubt we will be back to normal anytime soon.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Has anyone ever seen @Leon and Trump in the same room? :wink:

    Though I do have to admit, Leon's prediction that China would top the golds looks to be spot on - as I noted at the time, the odds were attractive (but I followed my rule of not betting on things that I don't know much about, here the strength of the Chinese team).
    I've been too afraid to ask @Leon or anyone else but...what exactly does 'woke' mean?
    Now you're just gaslighting us.
    Seriously. What does it mean?
    If you substitute "political correctness gone mad", controlling for grammar, you will get a pretty good idea.

    ie it means anything that any right-thinking (esp. a Felix-type old, white, Tory) person finds objectionable about today's society.

    Equal rights, against racism, pro-diverse, etc.
    No one complains about equal rights or advocates racism. Woke goes further than that. Woke is Leeds City Council explaining how parkin and tea are racist. Woke is forcing GNER to apologise for using the trans-exclusionary phrase 'Ladies and Gentlemen'. Woke is reducing absolutely everything to identity politics.
    Those examples are, however, similar to the kinds of examples that used to come up under 'political correctness gone mad' - i.e. either some actual perverted idea of 'political correctness', gone mad, or some sensational reporting on a bit of a non-issue. I do think woke is a good simile for politically correct, it's just that the debates have moved on (much of what used to be 'politically correct', is now mainstream opinion).

    On the trains, GNER referring to ladies and gentlemen is, indeed, discriminatory. While there are certainly people of both* sexes on the trains, there are - in my experience - rarely many whose behaviour would qualify them as 'ladies' or 'gentlemen'. :wink:

    *'all and none/indeterminate', if I'm going woke
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Scott_xP said:

    Cicero said:

    Well, there was the matter of a large number of lies told by the Leave campaigns. Lies that they continue to tell, while at the same time berating their opponants for failing to agree with them.

    If you want some light relief, Brexiteer Iain Martin has written a column in The Times today which is one in a series entitled "This Brexit is not the Brexit I wanted when I told people to vote for Brexit..."

    It's hilarious, and one of many to come as one by one the advocates recant.
    No more fake Covid figures to post today?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    Cicero said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    'segmented marketing' assures me that it is, in fact, really, really clever.

    Anyone who has ever canvassed will know that the aim is not to convert the opposition, but to ensure that friendlies remain friendly.

    As such no one gives a flying f*ck about what old white Tory blokes on PB think, save for being delighted that they are spending the entire thread talking about it, that is.
    Lol - explanation number 101 why Remain f***** up the Referendum. Didn't get it then ...still don't get it.
    I have absolutely no doubt why Remain lost the referendum.
    Well, there was the matter of a large number of lies told by the Leave campaigns. Lies that they continue to tell, while at the same time berating their opponants for failing to agree with them. Names like Arron Banks, JRM, BoJo and Farage will be associated with arrogance, dishonesty and ignorance long after they are themselves pushing up the daisies (and in BoJos case probably several other flowers). Its a legacy of contemptible shame and when the country changes course it will make 1997 look like a small bump in the road for the right.

    Eventually you will be massacred. You know it and you will deserve it.
    I think you're shouting into the wind.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:



    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    That was some leap. You're an old, white, Tory. As are so many on PB.

    It was not a huge deductive leap for me to work out that that was what you are. And I was right. Oh and you're gay, thanks for telling me.

    And old, white, (gay or not gay) Tories have shown themselves to be bewildered by Lab's latest marketing strategy or rather, by Jon Trickett's tweet.

    Get over yourself and embrace the truth would be my advice.
    Apparently it was pretty hard for you to understand the other day that I also voted remain. Maybe you could try removing your own blinkered views about race/age/sexuality before handing out unsolicited advice to others.

    Jeez if leaping to conclusions was an Olympic sport you would win gold ("gold" is ok to use, is it?).

    The other day you said you loathed the EU. Which is pretty funny as you live in the EU regardless of how you voted although if I were using my Sherlock Holmes powers again (easy when it comes to you) I would say you voted Remain because you wanted the EU to maintain links to your homeland rather than anything else and if so fair enough.

    And now, because I correctly identify the preponderance of old, white, Tory PB-ers, of which you are one such, I have blinkered views about race/age/sexuality [??].

    You are an old, white, Tory who can't understand a tweet aimed at Lab's supporters who include many people who are old and white but perhaps not so many as Cons' supporters or PB denizens.

    You are looking to be outraged where there is no reason to be outraged.
    And you are pretty thick it seems. Once you use any 'ism' to sneer as you do you give carte 'noir' [sic] for all of it. For the record I understand the tweet - not completely gaga - just think it is pretty lame, like your attempts to gloss over your prejudices. Clearly you don't get it and never will. Such is life.
    Yes but how did the you being gay thing fit into it all?
    If i had a pink € for every time some fool has asked that.
    You'd have 85p?
  • malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    Not a book reader then
    Currently reading R. D, Blackmore's Lorna Doone, so about 150 years to catch up. Mainly read history and science, with the cheeky bit of historical fiction thrown in.
    The only book I know that features my old school…
    Blundells? Did you meet a guy called Mark Tranchant, nickname, Troon whilst there?
    Name doesn’t ring a bell. I was there a very long time ago…
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Thought Banksy had been a bit quiet recently..




    I did think about this the other day when there was that discussion on Scottish population numbers and thinking there could be a win-win-win situation here for the migrants, Nicola S and the UK Government.

    Basically, you say to the migrants, "look, we will let you stay - and you can also work - on condition you live in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as well, actually) for a minimum of 15 years and give up your rights to live in rUK."

    Helps the migrants obviously. Helps Nicola because she wants to increase the diversity of Scotland anyway plus its population. And helps the UK Government because shoves the problem out of its heartlands and into the SNP'ss hands.

    Should be fairly easy to enforce as well. You have no right to housing, schools, hospitals etc outside Scotland (or NI) so a fairly easy barrier.
    That would necessitate BJ actually talking to Nicola, and devolving a fair amount control over immigration to Scotland. The auspices are not good..
    Agreed on that. However. I think for rUK, the problem almost sorts itself out if - and it is a big if - you actually enforce the rules around using services.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    Pre-famine, the proportion of Ireland's population to England was roughly at these ratios.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.
    But you know what I mean. Stuff like this Trump latest (if not fake) or over here, 'GB rowing' no longer dominating the gold medals because they've "gone woke". I mean, c'mon.

    Hey and being radical in the 60s is no protection against being reactionary now. There are loads of examples of this. Isn't the Woodstock guy a high end property developer now? Something like that anyway. I don't buy the generality that people move right with age but certainly some do.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    I think that could be part of the answer. Large numbers of smaller communities - probably more socially cohesive and achieving high compliance an easier task. I live in such a part of Spain where the vaccine take-up is very high and from day one the stringent rules on masks, lockdowns, etc were pretty much universally obeyed without question. It was, for a while almost surreal to both witness and be a part of it.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Told you the US performance at the Olympics was going to get politicised...
    And I told you that it was the USWNT that was getting all the headlines :smile:

    Although I see it is all kicking off today on the athletics front - Michael Johnson having a go at the US athletes on the BBC and Carl Lewis weighing in.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    That doesn't tell you anything about the density of places where people do live, though, which is the relevant parameter for a pandemic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:



    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    That was some leap. You're an old, white, Tory. As are so many on PB.

    It was not a huge deductive leap for me to work out that that was what you are. And I was right. Oh and you're gay, thanks for telling me.

    And old, white, (gay or not gay) Tories have shown themselves to be bewildered by Lab's latest marketing strategy or rather, by Jon Trickett's tweet.

    Get over yourself and embrace the truth would be my advice.
    Apparently it was pretty hard for you to understand the other day that I also voted remain. Maybe you could try removing your own blinkered views about race/age/sexuality before handing out unsolicited advice to others.

    Jeez if leaping to conclusions was an Olympic sport you would win gold ("gold" is ok to use, is it?).

    The other day you said you loathed the EU. Which is pretty funny as you live in the EU regardless of how you voted although if I were using my Sherlock Holmes powers again (easy when it comes to you) I would say you voted Remain because you wanted the EU to maintain links to your homeland rather than anything else and if so fair enough.

    And now, because I correctly identify the preponderance of old, white, Tory PB-ers, of which you are one such, I have blinkered views about race/age/sexuality [??].

    You are an old, white, Tory who can't understand a tweet aimed at Lab's supporters who include many people who are old and white but perhaps not so many as Cons' supporters or PB denizens.

    You are looking to be outraged where there is no reason to be outraged.
    And you are pretty thick it seems. Once you use any 'ism' to sneer as you do you give carte 'noir' [sic] for all of it. For the record I understand the tweet - not completely gaga - just think it is pretty lame, like your attempts to gloss over your prejudices. Clearly you don't get it and never will. Such is life.
    Yes but how did the you being gay thing fit into it all?
    If i had a pink € for every time some fool has asked that.
    You'd have 85p?
    You're claiming to be the first fool ? :smile:
  • Where's Arry?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Are you not going to post his next proclamation, where he announces that he is transitioning and will be playing for the USWNT in the 2024 Olympics?
    The scope creep with the "Woke" bomb (as used by the crazy Right) is becoming absurd now.

    It's come to mean anything and everything about the modern world that irritates blokes who'd prefer to live in the 1950s version of it.
    Of course, if you oppose anything woke, you just want to return to the 50s. Right.

    Plenty of women also not happy about quite a bit of wokery, especially around the trans issue. Never had Linda Bellos and Germaine Greer as a pair of grizzled blokes looking for a return to the 50s but there you go.
    But you know what I mean. Stuff like this Trump latest (if not fake) or over here, 'GB rowing' no longer dominating the gold medals because they've "gone woke". I mean, c'mon.

    Hey and being radical in the 60s is no protection against being reactionary now. There are loads of examples of this. Isn't the Woodstock guy a high end property developer now? Something like that anyway. I don't buy the generality that people move right with age but certainly some do.
    Yeah, that is right although I have always been a Rightie :)

    Have to admit the Trump comment did make me laugh, just for the entertainment value of it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:



    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Well off old white Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    It will never catch on, says @BannedInParis.

    tha't the second time you have referenced colour to make a dig. Try substituting another colour and see what it looks like.
    Well off old pink Tory blokes completely bewildered at newfangled "marketing" by Labour.

    Looks just fine.
    As a gay Tory I resent that on many more levels - especially as my Mediterranean tan has not a hint of pink about it.
    What about it is it that you resent?
    Simply that you seem to think you're totally tuned in to your Liberal vibe while you're just as full of the same old prejudices and stereotypes as the rest of us and completely unaware of it. I'm old, white, gay and proud - in your world all three seem to justify slurs and sneers. Clueless.
    That was some leap. You're an old, white, Tory. As are so many on PB.

    It was not a huge deductive leap for me to work out that that was what you are. And I was right. Oh and you're gay, thanks for telling me.

    And old, white, (gay or not gay) Tories have shown themselves to be bewildered by Lab's latest marketing strategy or rather, by Jon Trickett's tweet.

    Get over yourself and embrace the truth would be my advice.
    Apparently it was pretty hard for you to understand the other day that I also voted remain. Maybe you could try removing your own blinkered views about race/age/sexuality before handing out unsolicited advice to others.

    Jeez if leaping to conclusions was an Olympic sport you would win gold ("gold" is ok to use, is it?).

    The other day you said you loathed the EU. Which is pretty funny as you live in the EU regardless of how you voted although if I were using my Sherlock Holmes powers again (easy when it comes to you) I would say you voted Remain because you wanted the EU to maintain links to your homeland rather than anything else and if so fair enough.

    And now, because I correctly identify the preponderance of old, white, Tory PB-ers, of which you are one such, I have blinkered views about race/age/sexuality [??].

    You are an old, white, Tory who can't understand a tweet aimed at Lab's supporters who include many people who are old and white but perhaps not so many as Cons' supporters or PB denizens.

    You are looking to be outraged where there is no reason to be outraged.
    And you are pretty thick it seems. Once you use any 'ism' to sneer as you do you give carte 'noir' [sic] for all of it. For the record I understand the tweet - not completely gaga - just think it is pretty lame, like your attempts to gloss over your prejudices. Clearly you don't get it and never will. Such is life.
    Yes but how did the you being gay thing fit into it all?
    If i had a pink € for every time some fool has asked that.
    You'd have 85p?
    Oh way more you're not the only fool I was thinking of....
  • DougSeal said:


    That’s them told

    Poe’s Law applies here: I can’t tell if it real or a parody.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    That doesn't tell you anything about the density of places where people do live, though, which is the relevant parameter for a pandemic.
    Of the top of my hand, I think roughly 1/3 of Ireland's population is in Dublin. The other major cities are like smallish UK towns.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    That doesn't tell you anything about the density of places where people do live, though, which is the relevant parameter for a pandemic.
    Ireland pretty spread out on that measure too. Aside from Dublin there are a lot of small towns, widely spaced.
    Scotland and Ireland are si.ilar in size and population but in Scotland they are massively concentrated in the Central Belt: much more evenly spread in Ireland.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,876
    Sean_F said:


    I think you're shouting into the wind.

    Whether you think I'm shouting into the wind or not, I don't care but there will come a day when the Conservative Party no longer governs. When that will be I don't know and there seem plenty on here who relish the prospect of Conservative rule ad infinitum but it seems harmful to the nature of democracy for there not to be the occasional change in governing party.

    Someone once fold me the country will vote Labour when it believes it can afford to vote Labour - the argument of those suggesting a long-term economic boom is there will come a point when people will feel so relaxed about prosperity a Labour vote will not seem a risk.

    A little economic fear helps keep people in the Conservative camp as insecurity about wealth and finances usually translates into an unwillingness to support increased taxation and public spending whereas if people feel comfortable about their wealth they are happy for the State to show some largesse.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Not a bad line, I wonder if it's his own?


    Actually I think it’s a terrible line

    What’s the message that it’s trying to sell?

    Who is the target audience? Do most people know what a burner phone is and do they care?

    This will get him likes on Twitter but won’t actually achieve anything
    Agreed. I'm not entirely sure what a burner phone is, and I'm quite plugged into The Culture

    Perhaps 5% of the nation will understand?
    And for that 5% it will resonate. Segmented marketing very clever.

    And I suggest you (re)watch The Wire, or take a trip to any of your local drug dealing hotspots if you're not sure what a burner phone is.
    That’s what I disagree about - so he’s saying the government are like a criminal gang? I don’t think that will resonate with people.
    :D:D:D
    It’s too clever by half.

    I’m willing to bet that people don’t raise this on the doorsteps at the next election

    Edit: and the claim that the government is acting like a criminal gang won’t gain traction because it is implausible to most voters
    Only because they're not paying attention.
    Because it’s implausible.

    A drip drip of competence (or lack therefore) stories will undermine the government in a way that pretending Gove is a mafia don won’t.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Thought Banksy had been a bit quiet recently..




    I did think about this the other day when there was that discussion on Scottish population numbers and thinking there could be a win-win-win situation here for the migrants, Nicola S and the UK Government.

    Basically, you say to the migrants, "look, we will let you stay - and you can also work - on condition you live in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as well, actually) for a minimum of 15 years and give up your rights to live in rUK."

    Helps the migrants obviously. Helps Nicola because she wants to increase the diversity of Scotland anyway plus its population. And helps the UK Government because shoves the problem out of its heartlands and into the SNP'ss hands.

    Should be fairly easy to enforce as well. You have no right to housing, schools, hospitals etc outside Scotland (or NI) so a fairly easy barrier.
    That would necessitate BJ actually talking to Nicola, and devolving a fair amount control over immigration to Scotland. The auspices are not good..
    Agreed on that. However. I think for rUK, the problem almost sorts itself out if - and it is a big if - you actually enforce the rules around using services.
    It could certainly form part of an evolving post Brexit constitutional settlement. However incoherent and mercurial as the current Tory government's position on devolution is, the one thing I would bank money on is that they are not going to cede any more powers to Holyrood, and if possible dilute or strip away current powers if they can.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    A best selling trashy novelist, and I mean proper best selling, creator of Harry Bosch. Ok for passing the time on a sun lounger though the series is a bit exhausted now. I prefer Robert Crais in that particular line.
    Ah yes, Bosch. I used to devour them on holiday. Ages ago now but I think I recall he was standard 'tough guy with a heart' material but with the quirk that he knocked up a good pasta (and quite often did).
    I am now astounded that I used to hang on Patricia Cornwell's every book. The past is indeed a foreign country.
    Yep - read those too. Kay Scarpetta. Solid work. And I'm confident of low-browing you off the court with Robert Walker's "Jessica Coran" potboilers. There's no way you would have spent hours with them, but I did.
    The Sue Grafton books are my favourite trash.
    She started writing them in the 80's, and kept on going for decades, still setting them in the 80s. Quite the nostalgia trip.
    Ah, heard off but never read any. One of the 1st with a female (private) dick apparently per a quick wiki. And she didn't do a "Z is for ..." for some reason. Stopped at Y.
    My son has started reading them, which feels strange.
    Wish mine would read ANY books. It's a dying habit, I fear. And I'm just as bad. I get through maybe 5 a year now cf 20 in the past. And that's with being retired cf working, so it ought to have gone the other way. I should be tearing through the oeuvres and genres!
  • PJHPJH Posts: 645
    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    And in 1841 the difference wasn't all that great - 16m in England against 8m in (the whole of) Ireland.
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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Cookie said:


    Ireland pretty spread out on that measure too. Aside from Dublin there are a lot of small towns, widely spaced.
    Scotland and Ireland are si.ilar in size and population but in Scotland they are massively concentrated in the Central Belt: much more evenly spread in Ireland.

    Doesn't obviously explain the difference in vaccine take-up in the younger age groups, though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    TimT said:

    felix said:

    Interesting contrast between Ireland and the UK in vaxx rates for the younger cohorts. For 18-29, Ireland has a take-up of 73% double-vaxxed and 78.5% first dose only so far. That's miles better than we're managing - we're only at around 60% first jab.

    It's hard to see what would account for such a big difference. The government and PHE should try to find out.

    Different population demographics
    Yes - how urban is the Republic as a whole compared to the UK I wonder?
    In terms of density: England: 420.5/km2 (1,089.1/sq mi) Great Britain: 302/km2 (782 /sq mi) ... Republic of Ireland: 67.7/km2 (175.3/sq mi)

    If Ireland were as densely populated as England, it'd have a population of 35.5 million. Conversely, if England were as sparsely populated as Ireland, It's population would be only 9.6 million
    That doesn't tell you anything about the density of places where people do live, though, which is the relevant parameter for a pandemic.
    Birmingham vs Dublin might be instructive

    Those are both ~ 1 million population cities.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    Cookie said:


    Ireland pretty spread out on that measure too. Aside from Dublin there are a lot of small towns, widely spaced.
    Scotland and Ireland are si.ilar in size and population but in Scotland they are massively concentrated in the Central Belt: much more evenly spread in Ireland.

    Doesn't obviously explain the difference in vaccine take-up in the younger age groups, though.
    It's about who makes up the groups in question.

    Look at the ares with higher take up in the UK....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173
    kjh said:

    Carnyx said:

    philiph said:

    On topic, Sunak's going to become as unpopular as an ex with the clap if he keeps the triple lock, cuts the UC uplift, and generally puts up payroll taxes.

    When do we find out and can we bet on it/them?
    Well the UC uplift ends next month, so that will be pretty soon either way.

    As for the rest, pass, there's talk of moving to budget to next year now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/16/covid-impact-forces-sunak-to-consider-delaying-budget-until-next-year
    The triple lock does need to go - though aware it appeals to much of the Tories base. Though in the spirit of fairness if I end up paying more tax whilst the oldies are showered with goodies than the resentment will just build.
    Indeed. At some point the younger voters will finally turn out and vote.

    I mean, just get rid of the NI exemption for pensionable age workers for starters.
    That really is an obvious (if painful) place to start. Also fully logical as there is no longer an age at which retirement from the workplace is taken. Gone are the days of 60 female / 65 male. People can opt to continue in employment and so should continue to make the same contributions.
    Rationalising National Insurance does make sense. But I have never understood PB Tories' animosity to the triple lock. The full state pension is less than £10,000 a year which is less than the minimum wage. It is as mysterious as all those backbenchers who used to demand concessions for garden centres.
    It'd make more sense to merge NI and income tax, and abolish the allowances for bank interest and share dividends, and tax income fairly. And leave the triple lock.
    I agree with that exception for the allowance on bank interest and dividends.

    Re bank interest I have no objection to the allowance being removed other than it removes the need for collecting peanuts and the associated cost of collecting peanuts so it might make sense to have an allowance just for that reason.

    Re dividends. Where to start. Gordon Brown completely screwed this up just so he could nobble then pension funds. George Osborne promised to put this right, but he lied and pretended he had. As a consequence the link between dividends and Corporation Tax/ACT is completely broken now. The £5000 helped for small shareholders. Philip Hammond made it worse by reducing it to £2000. For all the buggering around you might as well eliminate it other than the admin factor, but in reality the sensible set up that had worked for decades should be reintroduced. Meddling chancellors!
    I think there may also be a case for changes to Winter Fuel Allowance, which currently costs of the order of 2-3 billion a year and is rather indiscrimate.

    It is better to be spending the money on measures to reduce demand for heating imo.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Cookie said:


    Ireland pretty spread out on that measure too. Aside from Dublin there are a lot of small towns, widely spaced.
    Scotland and Ireland are si.ilar in size and population but in Scotland they are massively concentrated in the Central Belt: much more evenly spread in Ireland.

    Doesn't obviously explain the difference in vaccine take-up in the younger age groups, though.
    Living in a similar style area of SE Spain it seems pretty plausible to me. Social cohesion and compliance are somewhat easier to achieve in most things in my experience. May not be a total explanation but I suspect it explains a lot. Would be intresting to see the stats for Dublin v the rest though.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    M
    MrEd said:

    Thought Banksy had been a bit quiet recently..




    I did think about this the other day when there was that discussion on Scottish population numbers and thinking there could be a win-win-win situation here for the migrants, Nicola S and the UK Government.

    Basically, you say to the migrants, "look, we will let you stay - and you can also work - on condition you live in Scotland (or Northern Ireland, as well, actually) for a minimum of 15 years and give up your rights to live in rUK."

    Helps the migrants obviously. Helps Nicola because she wants to increase the diversity of Scotland anyway plus its population. And helps the UK Government because shoves the problem out of its heartlands and into the SNP'ss hands.

    Should be fairly easy to enforce as well. You have no right to housing, schools, hospitals etc outside Scotland (or NI) so a fairly easy barrier.
    Ironically, current government policy is the opposite to this. They send Asylum Seekers pretty much anywhere - but the starting point is Croydon, where all initial claims have to be made - and if they decide to move to Glasgow because they know someone there, or there's an established immigrant population, then they lose their right to Home Office support.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    A best selling trashy novelist, and I mean proper best selling, creator of Harry Bosch. Ok for passing the time on a sun lounger though the series is a bit exhausted now. I prefer Robert Crais in that particular line.
    Ah yes, Bosch. I used to devour them on holiday. Ages ago now but I think I recall he was standard 'tough guy with a heart' material but with the quirk that he knocked up a good pasta (and quite often did).
    I am now astounded that I used to hang on Patricia Cornwell's every book. The past is indeed a foreign country.
    Yep - read those too. Kay Scarpetta. Solid work. And I'm confident of low-browing you off the court with Robert Walker's "Jessica Coran" potboilers. There's no way you would have spent hours with them, but I did.
    The Sue Grafton books are my favourite trash.
    She started writing them in the 80's, and kept on going for decades, still setting them in the 80s. Quite the nostalgia trip.
    Ah, heard off but never read any. One of the 1st with a female (private) dick apparently per a quick wiki. And she didn't do a "Z is for ..." for some reason. Stopped at Y.
    My son has started reading them, which feels strange.
    Wish mine would read ANY books. It's a dying habit, I fear. And I'm just as bad. I get through maybe 5 a year now cf 20 in the past. And that's with being retired cf working, so it ought to have gone the other way. I should be tearing through the oeuvres and genres!
    I get through 3-6 per night (depending on whether I'm doing bed time for the three year old with 'big boy' books or the 1 year old with 'baby' books).

    And also 10-15 proper grown up books (without pictures) per year. We do the Netflix etc series, but every now and again we get into a reading phase, the telly doesn't go on and we snuggle up with books. Probably why we still haven't finished Game of Thrones or Line of Duty. Compromises have to be made.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Cookie said:


    Ireland pretty spread out on that measure too. Aside from Dublin there are a lot of small towns, widely spaced.
    Scotland and Ireland are si.ilar in size and population but in Scotland they are massively concentrated in the Central Belt: much more evenly spread in Ireland.

    Doesn't obviously explain the difference in vaccine take-up in the younger age groups, though.
    It's about who makes up the groups in question.

    Look at the ares with higher take up in the UK....
    Quite - it's really not rocket scinece.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Positivity plateaux.

    Cases
    People tested positive
    Latest data provided on 5 August 2021

    Daily
    30,215
    Last 7 days
    183,406arrow -21,263 (-10.4%)

    Virus tests conducted
    Latest data provided on 4 August 2021

    Daily
    845,680
    Last 7 days
    5,339,972arrow -650,352 (-10.9%)

    Cases plateauxing upwards in Scotland and a few English regions.

    I think this time next week will show the Specimen date graph will have started bending up this week.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    And 'burner' has also appeared in every single Michael Connelly novel for the past decade.

    Of course everyone knows what they are.

    Who is Michael Connolly?
    A best selling trashy novelist, and I mean proper best selling, creator of Harry Bosch. Ok for passing the time on a sun lounger though the series is a bit exhausted now. I prefer Robert Crais in that particular line.
    Ah yes, Bosch. I used to devour them on holiday. Ages ago now but I think I recall he was standard 'tough guy with a heart' material but with the quirk that he knocked up a good pasta (and quite often did).
    I am now astounded that I used to hang on Patricia Cornwell's every book. The past is indeed a foreign country.
    Yep - read those too. Kay Scarpetta. Solid work. And I'm confident of low-browing you off the court with Robert Walker's "Jessica Coran" potboilers. There's no way you would have spent hours with them, but I did.
    The Sue Grafton books are my favourite trash.
    She started writing them in the 80's, and kept on going for decades, still setting them in the 80s. Quite the nostalgia trip.
    Ah, heard off but never read any. One of the 1st with a female (private) dick apparently per a quick wiki. And she didn't do a "Z is for ..." for some reason. Stopped at Y.
    My son has started reading them, which feels strange.
    Wish mine would read ANY books. It's a dying habit, I fear. And I'm just as bad. I get through maybe 5 a year now cf 20 in the past. And that's with being retired cf working, so it ought to have gone the other way. I should be tearing through the oeuvres and genres!
    I used to read a book a week, easy, now way down. Of course the main explanation is the incubus of the internet sucking out everything, but I wonder if it's also time running out and not enough left to waste on even okayish (as opposed to outright trash) stuff.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    edited August 2021
    It's not just the racial attitudes of the 19thC that the US right are embracing...

    Florida woman who's an antimasker "wants to promote health the way her generation’s grandparents experienced it. 'When they got sick, they didn’t need the crutch of pharmaceuticals or antibiotics to get better. They just got sick and they got well.'”
    https://twitter.com/BGrueskin/status/1422760495631716353

    (Though it should be noted that vaccination of sorts was a thing back then, too.)
This discussion has been closed.