Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
Not in 2007. Hamilton was very unlucky that season.
That was a looong time ago. He's earned plenty of luck over his career, but even so, some of the recent results have been fortuitous given what might have happened.
2007 seems like yesterday to me.
It was a seminal moment in my life for so many reasons.
On Hamilton's luck, I thought it was over for him at Baku when Verstappen crashed out whilst leading, handing Hamilton the victory only for Hamilton to spin off at the restart.
“I haven’t spoken to anyone particularly about it but I think it is lingering,” he said. “I remember the effects when I had it. The training has been different since then and the levels of fatigue you get are different and it’s a real challenge. So [I am] just continuing to try and train and prepare the best way I can. Who knows what it is today? Maybe it’s hydration but I’ve definitely not had that experience. I had something similar in Silverstone but this is way worse.”
Hamilton also gave his wholehearted support to Sebastian Vettel who was issued with a reprimand by the FIA for not removing his rainbow-coloured T-shirt with the words “Same Love” on it, in support of the LGBTQ+ community in Hungary who are being targeted by repressive laws.
On the politics side, I think the attempt by sporting associations to suppress competitors' wish to express opinions is getting oppressive. I get that some people may not like some slogans and gestures, and maybe it'll affect their support and they'll hope someone else wins. But taking part in a sport shouldn't be like joining the civil service, never to express an opinion again. Vettel has a view? Fine, get over it. And I'd say the same if he had the opposite view.
No, you wouldn’t
If a driver had a t-shirt saying ‘imprison gays’ or ‘expel illegal immigrants’ or ‘vote BNP’ or ‘hang cop killers’ you’d denounce him, despite these opinions being perfectly legal, and, in some cases, quite common
That's wholly different.
Vettel's message is wholly positive, yours (quoted) are generally negative. A more appropriate comparison would be, say, a pro-Trump T-Shirt. I suspect exactly the same reprimand would have been issued, and there would be plenty condemning the reprimand.
QED. You see them as ‘negative’ because you disagree with them. You only approve of political statements you approve. Lefties are so fricking stupid it’s BORING
Three of your examples incite physical harm to various groups.
Vettel’s slogan didn’t.
There is a difference there.
Jail is not physical harm. It’s judicial punishment - and the law in many countries, especially Islamic. Expelling illegal immigrants is, likewise, not a physical threat, just a promise of firm borders. And so forth.
You think those two don’t involve elements of physical harm?
Well, it’s a view.
Maybe you should put it on a T-shirt...
I’m pretty sure ‘expel illegal immigrants’ is simply a pithy way of expressing British law, as it stands, right now
It’s quite telling that PB lefties nonetheless think this is a violent, threatening statement which cannot be allowed on a t-shirt, whereas all the nice fluffy lefty opinions they agree with are, by pure coincidence, totally acceptable
I regret my vote. But I don't scorn it, nor see what purpose there is from deriding people for their vote, rather than merely deriding the vote itself. People can reasonably make a wrong choice, but acting like no sane or rational person could have made that choice is unlikely to cause people to have an epiphany.
If anything, it will entrench the divide, though you and Boris seem like partners there, working in tandem.
The vote is entrenched. Nothing anybody posts on this obscure Internet blog will change that.
Maybe I should be less scornful of those who revelled in calling us traitors?
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.
I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.
I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
@Big_G_NorthWales wasnt being insulting again. I have close family members with severe mental health issues and I don’t see calling someone as “obsessive” as an insult to relatives just as if someone said the word “Black” I wouldn’t think they were have a go at my wife.
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
Lol. Are you honestly claiming that @Scott_xP is NOT obsessed with Brexit?
Are you claiming obsessive behaviour is not a mental health condition?
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.
I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.
I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
@Big_G_NorthWales wasnt being insulting again. I have close family members with severe mental health issues and I don’t see calling someone as “obsessive” as an insult to relatives just as if someone said the word “Black” I wouldn’t think they were have a go at my wife.
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
* he says drinking champagne in Paris
Get fucked, seriously get fucked.
I've lost two friends over the years due to mental health issues, it is an issue close to my heart.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
Lol. Are you honestly claiming that @Scott_xP is NOT obsessed with Brexit?
No, but Big_G has form for ill-informed rants about the misuse of mental elf terminology on this site. The mental elf terminology doesn't bother me a bit, and I am on permanent high doses of venlafaxine and mirtazapine (aka Californian rocket fuel in the psychiatric world) but the pious tooth sucking irritates the shit out of me.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
The sensible thing generally would be to not treat casual and colloquial terms as something more than they are. Unless someone is trying to internet diagnose someone it is just silly and snowflakey to get offended about such things.
And someone will always be caught in their own trap if they do get so offended of course, which I assume is your point.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Can you stop doing Casino style psychiatric diagnoses over the Internet.
An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).
I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
Wasn’t the central issue of the Brexit vote sovereignty?
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.
I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.
I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
@Big_G_NorthWales wasnt being insulting again. I have close family members with severe mental health issues and I don’t see calling someone as “obsessive” as an insult to relatives just as if someone said the word “Black” I wouldn’t think they were have a go at my wife.
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
* he says drinking champagne in Paris
Get fucked, seriously get fucked.
I've lost two friends over the years due to mental health issues, it is an issue close to my heart.
And it’s an issue close to mine, having had two family members sectioned for years on end.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Can you stop doing Casino style psychiatric diagnoses over the Internet.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.
I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.
I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
@Big_G_NorthWales wasnt being insulting again. I have close family members with severe mental health issues and I don’t see calling someone as “obsessive” as an insult to relatives just as if someone said the word “Black” I wouldn’t think they were have a go at my wife.
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
* he says drinking champagne in Paris
Get fucked, seriously get fucked.
I've lost two friends over the years due to mental health issues, it is an issue close to my heart.
And it’s an issue close to mine, having had two family members sectioned for years on end.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
Obsessive behaviour?
I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.
I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.
I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
@Big_G_NorthWales wasnt being insulting again. I have close family members with severe mental health issues and I don’t see calling someone as “obsessive” as an insult to relatives just as if someone said the word “Black” I wouldn’t think they were have a go at my wife.
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
* he says drinking champagne in Paris
Get fucked, seriously get fucked.
I've lost two friends over the years due to mental health issues, it is an issue close to my heart.
And it’s an issue close to mine, having had two family members sectioned for years on end.
Don’t take the fucking high horse pal
No you said I was being disingenuous.
Remove that slur.
I’m happy to remove it. You’ve said you’ve being affected by it and I believe you. So I withdraw my comment. And I offer my apologies.
What I hate though is mental health being used as a weapon in a political debate. For that, I won’t apologise.
I regret my vote. But I don't scorn it, nor see what purpose there is from deriding people for their vote, rather than merely deriding the vote itself. People can reasonably make a wrong choice, but acting like no sane or rational person could have made that choice is unlikely to cause people to have an epiphany.
If anything, it will entrench the divide, though you and Boris seem like partners there, working in tandem.
The vote is entrenched. Nothing anybody posts on this obscure Internet blog will change that.
Maybe I should be less scornful of those who revelled in calling us traitors?
Or not...
That you seem to be pretending everyone who voted leave 'revelled' in such a thing is either dishonest or...no, it's just dishonest. You know that isn't true, so if you want to insult and scorn specific people and groups who did so revel, perhaps do that if you want to do more than make yourself feel superior.
And no, comments here change and influence nothing, but they are reflective of what a lot of people think about things, and the more people there are who want to lump everyone who voted leave as one homogenous, horrible mass, rather than trying to break apart that coalition, well, the better it is for Boris. The more people who approach this issue as you do, the better for Boris. I'd have thought focusing on how Brexit is not working etc would be more fruitful than reminding everyone that leave voters might as well be satan or whatever.
Even I, who doesn't rate Johnson as PM, agree that the anti-Johnson criticism on here is incessant and often pathological - but please don't leave the site.
Seconded.. Stuart Dixon started off in filthy mode this morning. I pointed out to him that he wouldn't like it if La Sturgeon was so castigated.
Why is Starmer is c*** acceptable yet Johnson is c*** is unacceptable?
What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?
Do people say how disgusted they are at the thought of Sir Keir’s wife sleeping with him? I can’t remember it.
I have never said that.
My beef with Johnson is, that in my opinion, he chose what was best for himself, rather than what he thought was best for the country.
Additionally I wouldn't run my personal life in the way he runs his, and I don't think he is a good role model, but that is entirely his own business.
You might not have others have.
The case against Johnson is that he conspired with Gove and Cummings to procure Brexit when none of them wanted or believed in it, and all of them thought it would advance them personally. The key is not whether you think Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, it's what they thought about it. That is about as evil as it gets, short of Fred West or falling foul of the Godwin principle, and compared to that I thing satirical comment on his goings on with that pound shop Clara Petacci woman are pretty small beer.
I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit. I personally have evidence of this. That they also believed it would advance their careers is probably true, but by the by. With Gove I am slightly less sure
Cummings sees Brexit as a rock in the pond. Johnson used Brexit to gain power for himself. Gove believes in Brexit. That's my sense of this trio.
Pretty much- however... I suspect that Cummings saw EU membership as a net that would keep the rocks he was really interested in out of the pond... lots of boring rules run by little people who would stop the galaxy brains doing what needed to be done. But one has to wonder what he really thinks of a Brexit run by Boris (or worse, Carrie) not Dominic.
I also wonder if Johnson would have been fine with the EU had it been run by heads of national governments... and let's be honest, the governments of the Big Nations. So Johnson, Macron and Merkel getting together to decide what's what and the others lumping it.
But the ultimate question with Believing In Brexit is... what counts as Brexit? When does it become not-Brexit?
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
It was me that said "drooling fuckwit," and I was referring *only* to voters who believed the 350m claim. I don't think all leavers are racists, I think there were good reasons for voting leave, and I effectively abstained in the referendum by surrendering my vote to my 17 year old son. He told me to vote remain so I did, and I genuinely don't know how I would have voted on my own account.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).
I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
Wasn’t the central issue of the Brexit vote sovereignty?
I regret my vote. But I don't scorn it, nor see what purpose there is from deriding people for their vote, rather than merely deriding the vote itself. People can reasonably make a wrong choice, but acting like no sane or rational person could have made that choice is unlikely to cause people to have an epiphany.
If anything, it will entrench the divide, though you and Boris seem like partners there, working in tandem.
The vote is entrenched. Nothing anybody posts on this obscure Internet blog will change that.
Maybe I should be less scornful of those who revelled in calling us traitors?
Or not...
That you seem to be pretending everyone who voted leave 'revelled' in such a thing is either dishonest or...no, it's just dishonest. You know that isn't true, so if you want to insult and scorn specific people and groups who did so revel, perhaps do that if you want to do more than make yourself feel superior.
And no, comments here change and influence nothing, but they are reflective of what a lot of people think about things, and the more people there are who want to lump everyone who voted leave as one homogenous, horrible mass, rather than trying to break apart that coalition, well, the better it is for Boris. The more people who approach this issue as you do, the better for Boris. I'd have thought focusing on how Brexit is not working etc would be more fruitful than reminding everyone that leave voters might as well be satan or whatever.
This thread does illustrate an important point about Brexit.
Even those that wanted it, voted for it, believed in the project, can no longer be bothered to defend it.
Their only recourse is not to talk about it, pretend it isn't happening and hope we all forget...
I voted for it and I am happy to defend it. This is not a comprehensive list but here are a few plus points:
1. We have more flexibility when it comes to decision making around industrial policy etc; 2. It’s clear that freedom of movement was good for capital owners but not workers. Lo and behold, restaurant owners now cannot get staff and have to pay them more 3. The U.K., unlike most of the EU, has a non-contributory health and social welfare system making it very attractive for people to come over without having paid into the system.
I could go on but - and this did crack me up - here is an article from the Guardian complaining about EU citizens (in this case, one person) being impacted by not getting their paperwork in on time but then breezily mentioning without deluging further that, of the 1500 people in Wandsworth at the moment, 500 are EU nationals...(go down the article)
An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).
I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
Wasn’t the central issue of the Brexit vote sovereignty?
No.
What was it then? The polling after the fact suggest that was the biggest motivator for the Leave vote.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
SKY have completely removed this story from their website - but it's still on Yahoo:
The decrease in the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases released by the government each day "looks a bit fishy", according to a leading symptoms researcher whose study has shown infections are on the rise.
Professor Tim Spector, who co-founded the ZOE COVID Symptom Study app, said a "sudden drop" in people testing positive for the virus in the government's data is "very suspicious".
Whatever his specific working it's all a bit odd. The government won't get credit for leaving a door open from those who think it shouldn't be up to them to bar the door in the first place, and those who don't want the door opened but agree it is up to Scotland to do it or not aren't changing their views on it either on that basis.
'No means no' was hardly without problems, but at least it was straightforward.
While in the past most people haven't considered it a classic of the festive genre, the movie's writer has settled the debate once and for all, confirming it is indeed a Christmas classic.
Steven E de Souza gave us a handy checklist while appearing on the Script Apart podcast, comparing it to the "baseline" Christmas movie – 1954's White Christmas.
In his examination, he notes that Die Hard takes place entirely in the Christmas holidays, while only the first and final scenes of White Christmas are set during the holiday season. The entirety of Die Hard is also at a Christmas party, while only the end of its 1950s counterpart is.
Interestingly, there are four Christmas songs in Die Hard, compared to only two in White Christmas, and in Die Hard the party venue is threatened by terrorists, while the one in the earlier movie is threatened by foreclosure.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
1. We have more flexibility when it comes to decision making around industrial policy etc; 2. It’s clear that freedom of movement was good for capital owners but not workers. Lo and behold, restaurant owners now cannot get staff and have to pay them more
1. Clearly not. We are abandoning introducing our own systems on imports and begging the EU not to change anything either. 2. At the expense of consumers. I don't remember "Brexit will make eating out more expensive" on the side of the bus
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages
It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Just a comment on the piece in tomorrow's Guardian including the quote from Steve Baker MP.
I suspect many would find the notion of deprivation and poverty in places like High Wycombe risible.
It's not - there's a lot of relative poverty in the south and south-east - it's often masked by the larger areas of wealth but it is foolish to deny their existence.
The cost of housing, for example, is one of those key measures which mark out the real problems some face in the supposedly affluent areas.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Thr Daily Mail has the opposite story that it will all be Pfizer. 🤷🏼♂️
I think it will be a mix and 2.5m doses per weeks seems very low. We should easily be able to call up all groups 1-6 immediately and get them done at a rate of 4-5m per week given that our current roll out has ground to a halt.
I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.
Nope
BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate
There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement
However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right
It's clear from all of Boris Johnson's earlier writing that he was a cultural Europhile but an institutional Eurosceptic. The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.
It's "absurd" to think Boris Johnson is driven by self-interest not conviction?
Whatever his specific working it's all a bit odd. The government won't get credit for leaving a door open from those who think it shouldn't be up to them to bar the door in the first place, and those who don't want the door opened but agree it is up to Scotland to do it or not aren't changing their views on it either on that basis.
'No means no' was hardly without problems, but at least it was straightforward.
It's about Gove positioning for the post-BoZo world
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
I think it now time to introduce a contentious topic of conversation -
Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?
Dunno, but I bloody love Foxy's anecdote that in later life Dreyfus commented on something or other that "There's no smoke without fire." No idea if true or not.
1. We have more flexibility when it comes to decision making around industrial policy etc; 2. It’s clear that freedom of movement was good for capital owners but not workers. Lo and behold, restaurant owners now cannot get staff and have to pay them more
1. Clearly not. We are abandoning introducing our own systems on imports and begging the EU not to change anything either. 2. At the expense of consumers. I don't remember "Brexit will make eating out more expensive" on the side of the bus
Re 2, middle class diners have to pay more so people who are lowly paid get paid more. I really have little sympathy
Re 1, we have flexibility and we listen. We are one year in to a multi year cycle. Ask Ireland post-1922 how many years it took to break free of the U.K.
I’ll assume you didn’t get round to point 3.
And I won’t mention the fuck up that is / was the EU’s vaccine programme
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Thr Daily Mail has the opposite story that it will all be Pfizer. 🤷🏼♂️
But I was Pfizered in February and March.
Mail story was quoting government source saying plenty of supply of Pfizer and that it is fasting working and higher efficacy so will go with that for everybody regardless of what you had first time around.
While in the past most people haven't considered it a classic of the festive genre, the movie's writer has settled the debate once and for all, confirming it is indeed a Christmas classic.
Steven E de Souza gave us a handy checklist while appearing on the Script Apart podcast, comparing it to the "baseline" Christmas movie – 1954's White Christmas.
In his examination, he notes that Die Hard takes place entirely in the Christmas holidays, while only the first and final scenes of White Christmas are set during the holiday season. The entirety of Die Hard is also at a Christmas party, while only the end of its 1950s counterpart is.
Interestingly, there are four Christmas songs in Die Hard, compared to only two in White Christmas, and in Die Hard the party venue is threatened by terrorists, while the one in the earlier movie is threatened by foreclosure.
Yes, and Jack Reacher 2 is a Halloween movie because it takes place at Halloween. Season 1 of Bosch takes place at Christmas too, all that serial killer stuff must have confused me that it must be a Christmas programme like Home for Christmas.
Whatever his specific working it's all a bit odd. The government won't get credit for leaving a door open from those who think it shouldn't be up to them to bar the door in the first place, and those who don't want the door opened but agree it is up to Scotland to do it or not aren't changing their views on it either on that basis.
'No means no' was hardly without problems, but at least it was straightforward.
It's about Gove positioning for the post-BoZo world
Some of us have been mentioning on PB for a while that Gove is up to something, particularly on Indyref2.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Apparently there is 170k unused doses of Moderna sitting around. Perhaps they should start the booster now for those who got jabbed before Christmas, as more than 6 months and will be the most vulnerable / more likely vaccine might not have worked or waned.
I think Brexit brings out the worst in everyone...
If it was remotely successful instead of a shitshow that should not be the case
It’s not even one year in.
It’s why I bring up the Ireland example. If you took what is being said about Brexit, Ireland shouldn’t be an independent country. All the arguments used against Brexit applied x1000 to Ireland.
Yet, they wanted to break free and that was the key point. And now the nation is doing very well.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).
I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
Wasn’t the central issue of the Brexit vote sovereignty?
No.
What was it then? The polling after the fact suggest that was the biggest motivator for the Leave vote.
It’s why I bring up the Ireland example. If you took what is being said about Brexit, Ireland shouldn’t be an independent country. All the arguments used against Brexit applied x1000 to Ireland.
Yet, they wanted to break free and that was the key point. And now the nation is doing very well.
Ah, the answer to the question "when will we see any benefit from Brexit" is, and always will be, "tomorrow, and tomorrow..."
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).
I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
Wasn’t the central issue of the Brexit vote sovereignty?
No.
What was it then? The polling after the fact suggest that was the biggest motivator for the Leave vote.
£350mpw nhs. Just too embarrassed to admit it.
I don't believe people would be embarrassed to admit additional funding for the NHS. Anyway, the core of that argument is still sovereignty, being able to choose where the money is spent.
Apparently there is 170k unused doses of Moderna sitting around. Perhaps they should start the booster now for those who got jabbed before Christmas, as more than 6 months and will be the most vulnerable / more likely vaccine might not have worked or waned.
It’s why I bring up the Ireland example. If you took what is being said about Brexit, Ireland shouldn’t be an independent country. All the arguments used against Brexit applied x1000 to Ireland.
Yet, they wanted to break free and that was the key point. And now the nation is doing very well.
Ah, the answer to the question "when will we see any benefit from Brexit" is, and always will be, "tomorrow, and tomorrow..."
Why not? If it’s definitive as opposed to along the lines of “Brazil is the country of the future and always will be”, then that is a reasonable answer
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Thr Daily Mail has the opposite story that it will all be Pfizer. 🤷🏼♂️
I think it will be a mix and 2.5m doses per weeks seems very low. We should easily be able to call up all groups 1-6 immediately and get them done at a rate of 4-5m per week given that our current roll out has ground to a halt.
I get the impression that there is a lot of debate about whether booster vaccines actually serve any useful purpose or whether the push for them is being pushed at least in part by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.
There is a serious danger that the Government/Scientists might use them to create a new measure of "progress" to inform the reintroduction of restrictions over the winter.
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
But don't you hate everyone ?
Was that a consequence of being kicked out of the RN or a cause ?
For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
You share the loss.
That's the problem.
Brexit makes us collectively poorer, but half the Country feel the need to cheer it.
I simply don’t agree. There has been some loss - FOM for me is the big one - but we are now genuinely sovereign. There will be new freedoms.
Of course this is very early days and it feels painful, even regrettable at times. I believe it was the great Seant, once of this parish, who wrote that Brexit is like having a baby. I have never forgotten these prescient paragraphs of his, from October 2016:
‘Thirdly, there will be blood. Brexit is going to be painful, like childbirth. It just is. The Leave quacks who promised a brisk and blissful delivery don’t have enough diamorphine to dull the nerves. We might need epidurals from the Treasury. We will swear a lot, and not care. It might be rather embarrassing but again, we probably won’t care, because we’ll be concentrating on the pain. Other countries will look at us and think 'I’m never going through that'. Immediately after Brexit, we will likely appear reduced, saggy, wrinkled.
‘Then comes the depression. It’s unavoidable. Overnight, your horizons have shrunk to a nursery room, some cheap Lidl shiraz, and the sound of a fiendishly annoying plastic toy which sings 'Froggy goes a courting he did ride uh-huh' over and over again. The house is a mess, all the time, in every way. You haven’t slept properly for several economic quarters. And so, at one point you will stare at a bowl of mushed baby food, and then you’ll soulfully ask yourself: Why did I ever do this?’
Apparently there is 170k unused doses of Moderna sitting around. Perhaps they should start the booster now for those who got jabbed before Christmas, as more than 6 months and will be the most vulnerable / more likely vaccine might not have worked or waned.
Aiui unused Moderna doses is much more than 170k.
I did read it in the Gruardian...so they might have meant 710k...;-)
Either way, no real reason not to start 3rd jabs for those who got jabbed around end of 2020.
Just a comment on the piece in tomorrow's Guardian including the quote from Steve Baker MP.
I suspect many would find the notion of deprivation and poverty in places like High Wycombe risible.
It's not - there's a lot of relative poverty in the south and south-east - it's often masked by the larger areas of wealth but it is foolish to deny their existence.
The cost of housing, for example, is one of those key measures which mark out the real problems some face in the supposedly affluent areas.
Yes, we have that problem here in deep Surrey. Plenty of people work on moderate salaries - railway staff, shop staff, many others - and would like to live close to where they work, but because the average wealth is high, they are outbid and have to live elsewhere and have a long commute. If they lived in Nottingham they'd have much less trouble, but they have reasons - family, tradition, simply preference - for wanting to be down here.
I used to live in High Wycombe - our neighbours were very Daily Telegraph types, always talking about riding and tennis, but the town had plenty of people who didn't look wealthy.
Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
I have to travel to Brussels for work.
Pre-Brexit it was simple.
Now it's a fucking nightmare.
Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.
If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
Good post. Limiting what we can see from Twitter has proved to be excellent for the quality of your output. Needless to say I disagree completely, but that's beside the point!
Why not? If it’s definitive as opposed to along the lines of “Brazil is the country of the future and always will be”, then that is a reasonable answer
It's never definitive. That's the point.
The leave campaigns made wild claims that they refuted the day after the vote.
The sunlit uplands are always over the next hill...
I think it now time to introduce a contentious topic of conversation -
Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?
He was French, he deserved everything he got.
I thought he was Jewish, and his persecution revealed the extent of Antisemitism in the French state, long before the Vichy period?
But he was French first, his religion is irrelevant to me. hH was eventually exonerated, everyone realised he was a good man, the most wrongly persecuted man in France since Jean Valjean
I think it now time to introduce a contentious topic of conversation -
Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?
Dunno, but I bloody love Foxy's anecdote that in later life Dreyfus commented on something or other that "There's no smoke without fire." No idea if true or not.
By many accounts Dreyfus wasn't exactly a rocket scientist. Perfect material for a degree at Cambridge, really...
Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?
All the great success?
The fantastic new opportunities?
But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
But don't you hate everyone ?
Was that a consequence of being kicked out of the RN or a cause ?
I make a point of not saying things to people on the internet that I wouldn't be prepared to say to them in real life.
Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
Thr Daily Mail has the opposite story that it will all be Pfizer. 🤷🏼♂️
I think it will be a mix and 2.5m doses per weeks seems very low. We should easily be able to call up all groups 1-6 immediately and get them done at a rate of 4-5m per week given that our current roll out has ground to a halt.
I get the impression that there is a lot of debate about whether booster vaccines actually serve any useful purpose or whether the push for them is being pushed at least in part by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.
There is a serious danger that the Government/Scientists might use them to create a new measure of "progress" to inform the reintroduction of restrictions over the winter.
Ultimately we've already paid for them and if anything having a booster programme is very much a safety first approach. As I said I'd be shocked if it takes beyond the end of October to complete it we already have plenty of the three major vaccines in fridges around the country.
Booster doses result in an 8-20x boost in antibodies, that alone will give is a pretty good reduction in the R as many millions become fully immune from infection. The booster programme should be open to everyone 4 months after their second dose. We really need to play it safe and just get everyone who wants one a booster shot. Going into winter we should do whatever it takes to avoid a repeat of last year.
I think it now time to introduce a contentious topic of conversation -
Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?
He was French, he deserved everything he got.
I thought he was Jewish, and his persecution revealed the extent of Antisemitism in the French state, long before the Vichy period?
Among other things. The other things include the probability that French military Intelligence was staffed by people more stupid than Gavin Williamson. Unless the whole thing was genius level mis-direction.
Comments
It was a seminal moment in my life for so many reasons.
On Hamilton's luck, I thought it was over for him at Baku when Verstappen crashed out whilst leading, handing Hamilton the victory only for Hamilton to spin off at the restart.
That was a most unLewis moment.
Raving loony centrist.
Maybe I should be less scornful of those who revelled in calling us traitors?
Or not...
I think @TSE et al are being disingenuous. They really don’t give a fuck about mental health issues, they just don’t like @Big_G_NorthWales calling out @Scott_xP for his comments. FWIW, Scott is entirely entitled to his views, I just think there are far better things to do in life than raging against things that have gone against you *
* he says drinking champagne in Paris
I've lost two friends over the years due to mental health issues, it is an issue close to my heart.
And someone will always be caught in their own trap if they do get so offended of course, which I assume is your point.
Even those that wanted it, voted for it, believed in the project, can no longer be bothered to defend it.
Their only recourse is not to talk about it, pretend it isn't happening and hope we all forget...
Don’t take the fucking high horse pal
The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.
At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3506924#Comment_3506924
Yet another reason to wish Boris a speedy departure.
Remove that slur.
As posted upthread...
Shot: we did elect the people who passed EU laws
Chaser: we didn’t elect “Lord Willoughby de Broke”
(tweet from 2017)
https://twitter.com/brexitcentral/status/834078787901988866
What I hate though is mental health being used as a weapon in a political debate. For that, I won’t apologise.
And no, comments here change and influence nothing, but they are reflective of what a lot of people think about things, and the more people there are who want to lump everyone who voted leave as one homogenous, horrible mass, rather than trying to break apart that coalition, well, the better it is for Boris. The more people who approach this issue as you do, the better for Boris. I'd have thought focusing on how Brexit is not working etc would be more fruitful than reminding everyone that leave voters might as well be satan or whatever.
You do very good work for Boris, congratulations.
Has anyone told @HYUFD
I suspect that Cummings saw EU membership as a net that would keep the rocks he was really interested in out of the pond... lots of boring rules run by little people who would stop the galaxy brains doing what needed to be done. But one has to wonder what he really thinks of a Brexit run by Boris (or worse, Carrie) not Dominic.
I also wonder if Johnson would have been fine with the EU had it been run by heads of national governments... and let's be honest, the governments of the Big Nations. So Johnson, Macron and Merkel getting together to decide what's what and the others lumping it.
But the ultimate question with Believing In Brexit is... what counts as Brexit? When does it become not-Brexit?
Die Hard, after all it was released in the summer of 1988.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/01/pressure-piles-pm-ease-travel-restrictions-shun-amber-watchlist/
1. We have more flexibility when it comes to decision making around industrial policy etc;
2. It’s clear that freedom of movement was good for capital owners but not workers. Lo and behold, restaurant owners now cannot get staff and have to pay them more
3. The U.K., unlike most of the EU, has a non-contributory health and social welfare system making it very attractive for people to come over without having paid into the system.
I could go on but - and this did crack me up - here is an article from the Guardian complaining about EU citizens (in this case, one person) being impacted by not getting their paperwork in on time but then breezily mentioning without deluging further that, of the 1500 people in Wandsworth at the moment, 500 are EU nationals...(go down the article)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/01/eu-citizens-who-applied-to-stay-in-britain-facing-threat-of-deportation
Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.
Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.
Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.
All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.
The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....
...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/01/vaccine-booster-shots-32m-begin-next-month/
1) The peak looks like... a peak... just like the other peaks we've had
2) The positivity rate has fallen to match
3) The rate of the fall in testing has been (and is) slower than the fall in cases. This matches previous falls.
4) The hospitalisations have levelled off, pretty much at the point the fall in cases suggests they should.
5) There are now some indications of from the death data, that that too is slowing.
All in all, if it is "wrong data" it is remarkably coherent wrong data.
'No means no' was hardly without problems, but at least it was straightforward.
While in the past most people haven't considered it a classic of the festive genre, the movie's writer has settled the debate once and for all, confirming it is indeed a Christmas classic.
Steven E de Souza gave us a handy checklist while appearing on the Script Apart podcast, comparing it to the "baseline" Christmas movie – 1954's White Christmas.
In his examination, he notes that Die Hard takes place entirely in the Christmas holidays, while only the first and final scenes of White Christmas are set during the holiday season. The entirety of Die Hard is also at a Christmas party, while only the end of its 1950s counterpart is.
Interestingly, there are four Christmas songs in Die Hard, compared to only two in White Christmas, and in Die Hard the party venue is threatened by terrorists, while the one in the earlier movie is threatened by foreclosure.
What about damascene leavers?
2. At the expense of consumers. I don't remember "Brexit will make eating out more expensive" on the side of the bus
It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?
Just a comment on the piece in tomorrow's Guardian including the quote from Steve Baker MP.
I suspect many would find the notion of deprivation and poverty in places like High Wycombe risible.
It's not - there's a lot of relative poverty in the south and south-east - it's often masked by the larger areas of wealth but it is foolish to deny their existence.
The cost of housing, for example, is one of those key measures which mark out the real problems some face in the supposedly affluent areas.
C'mon.
Re 1, we have flexibility and we listen. We are one year in to a multi year cycle. Ask Ireland post-1922 how many years it took to break free of the U.K.
I’ll assume you didn’t get round to point 3.
And I won’t mention the fuck up that is / was the EU’s vaccine programme
Who knows.
edit: * or Hull
That's the problem.
Brexit makes us collectively poorer, but half the Country feel the need to cheer it.
It’s why I bring up the Ireland example. If you took what is being said about Brexit, Ireland shouldn’t be an independent country. All the arguments used against Brexit applied x1000 to Ireland.
Yet, they wanted to break free and that was the key point. And now the nation is doing very well.
Or the City relocating to Frankfurt ?
Or there being no strawberries in the shops ?
Or that no trade deals would be rolled over ?
There is a serious danger that the Government/Scientists might use them to create a new measure of "progress" to inform the reintroduction of restrictions over the winter.
Was that a consequence of being kicked out of the RN or a cause ?
Of course this is very early days and it feels painful, even regrettable at times. I believe it was the great Seant, once of this parish, who wrote that Brexit is like having a baby. I have never forgotten these prescient paragraphs of his, from October 2016:
‘Thirdly, there will be blood. Brexit is going to be painful, like childbirth. It just is. The Leave quacks who promised a brisk and blissful delivery don’t have enough diamorphine to dull the nerves. We might need epidurals from the Treasury. We will swear a lot, and not care. It might be rather embarrassing but again, we probably won’t care, because we’ll be concentrating on the pain. Other countries will look at us and think 'I’m never going through that'. Immediately after Brexit, we will likely appear reduced, saggy, wrinkled.
‘Then comes the depression. It’s unavoidable. Overnight, your horizons have shrunk to a nursery room, some cheap Lidl shiraz, and the sound of a fiendishly annoying plastic toy which sings 'Froggy goes a courting he did ride uh-huh' over and over again. The house is a mess, all the time, in every way. You haven’t slept properly for several economic quarters. And so, at one point you will stare at a bowl of mushed baby food, and then you’ll soulfully ask yourself: Why did I ever do this?’
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-brexit-is-just-like-having-a-baby
But, as he concludes: it gets better from there
Either way, no real reason not to start 3rd jabs for those who got jabbed around end of 2020.
I used to live in High Wycombe - our neighbours were very Daily Telegraph types, always talking about riding and tennis, but the town had plenty of people who didn't look wealthy.
The leave campaigns made wild claims that they refuted the day after the vote.
The sunlit uplands are always over the next hill...
I tend to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Walsin_Esterhazy#Revisionist_thesis:_Was_Esterhazy_a_double_agent?
I'm guessing you don't?
FWIW, Vettel’s team think they might have a chance if getting it reversed.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/08/01/aston-martin-begin-proceedings-to-protest-vettels-disqualification/
Booster doses result in an 8-20x boost in antibodies, that alone will give is a pretty good reduction in the R as many millions become fully immune from infection. The booster programme should be open to everyone 4 months after their second dose. We really need to play it safe and just get everyone who wants one a booster shot. Going into winter we should do whatever it takes to avoid a repeat of last year.