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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,910
    Leon said:

    HAHAHAHA YOU CANT RETIRE TO YOUR FUCKING VILLA IN THE LANGUEDOC NOW CAN YOU

    That's not really true because affluent remainers still effectively have FoM. It's people who now can't afford private medical insurance,etc. who can't afford to retire to France or Spain.

    This is a rare example of Brexit working as designed as an essentially elitist and eugenicist project.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,953
    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    There is one big caveat to that, namely when the rules and laws work in their favour.

    The EU was a big plus for upper professional classes who relied on cheap labour to do building jobs, clean their houses, waiter at their favourite restaurants and, of course, when it meant they could holiday in France or Portugal in their second homes without waiting with the plebs.

    If the rules were against their interests, they would be crying foul ad infinitum
    Did working class people never use a plumber or have building works, or buy beer from a Slovakian barmaid, nor have their mother looked after by Polish nursing home staff?
    Builders - unlikely, given the cost involved and / or they would do it themselves and / or use friends

    Beer - yes but so what? The beer companies would put up the price of beer regardless of the cost of Labour. The profit went to the beer companies not the consumer. Just look at how much beer in bars has risen?

    Nursing homes - again, if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries

    Counter point, Poorer people see far more fat to day impact when it comes to their kids at school having bigger classes and / or resources switched to non-English speaking pupils, plus bigger queues at the doctors for treatment.
    You do realise around half of nursing home residents are state funded ?
    I do. And I am sure you realise that most of the staff are not coming from non-U.K., EU countries?
    So, if you are poor, you may well still put you mum in a private nursing home.
    And you’re also apparently wrong about ‘most of the staff’:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/internationalmigrationandthehealthcareworkforce/2019-08-15
    Err, have you actually looked at what that data quoted - it said EU nationals were more likely to work in the private health sector than non-EU or U.K. staff.

    Not exactly backing your case that EU staff are holding up state nursing homes...
    Why do you imagine there is a clear distinction between state and private nursing homes ?
    A good deal of the clients of the private sector (which accounts for the vast majority of such homes in the UK) are council funded.
    Three things;

    1. On that data, 88pc of health staff are U.K. nationals. EU staff do not hold up the system;
    2. Of the 12pc, the data states 6pc are EU and 6pc non-EU staff.
    3. On your specific point, yes councils fund non-state homes but, given the very definitions, it is more likely that poorer older people are in state homes than private ones
    You’re now arguing something else.
    I just looked at if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries and said it was wrong, which it was.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 4,252
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    HAHAHAHA YOU CANT RETIRE TO YOUR FUCKING VILLA IN THE LANGUEDOC NOW CAN YOU

    That's not really true because affluent remainers still effectively have FoM. It's people who now can't afford private medical insurance,etc. who can't afford to retire to France or Spain.

    This is a rare example of Brexit working as designed as an essentially elitist and eugenicist project.
    As do affluent Leavers. Who then wonder why people won't cheer at their victory parade.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    Just caught up with Max Whitlock.
    The human body can't adopt such positions .Gravity ought to prevent it.
    And yet I saw it. With my own eyes.
    Sad for the Taiwanese who came second.
    He was flawless.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,602

    Now for a *really* contentious issue....

    The Schleswig-Holstein Question

    Which was solved by plebiscite in 1920. Even Hitler recognised* the new border.

    (*even though Denmark was occupied in its entirety 1940-45, Hitler didn't tinker with the North Schleswig border).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,602
    Leon said:

    This weather is dismal. A week of rain ahead. Pfff

    In London? Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday set to be dry.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
    But don't you hate everyone ?

    Was that a consequence of being kicked out of the RN or a cause ?
    There is rather an unpleasant atmosphere on here tonight, and your final paragraph is about as personally unpleasant as it gets.
    Its odd, on the rare occasions I have tried to annoy people I rarely get a response.

    But when I haven't I sometimes do.

    And I certainly bear no ill will to DA, who incidentally has mentioned his departure from the RN (the tuktuk affair) many times and also boasts of his antipathy towards much of the country (though whether he really does I don't know).
    Dura Ace is an anti vaxxer. He wants the rest of us to die because he can’t be arsed to have an injection. It’s hard to get more antipathetic than THAT
    I'd forgotten that DA is an anti-vaxxer - that's if he is and not just claiming to be.

    Does he have reasons more coherent that contrarian's gibberish ?
    He is a vegan, and won't use things tested on animals.

    But quite happily would test them on Brexiteers
    Well, test them on everyone really.

    The anti-vaxxers are the control group. The 10% of adults unvaxxed are 75% of ICU cases. So it is quite useful to have a control group, albeit unrandomised.
    Are your Consultant colleagues still refusing to get vaccinated ?
    I haven't asked them for a while.

    My fifty something unvaxxed clinic co ordinator has caught it, along with her twenty something daughters though none too bad at present. Pretty much everyone unvaxxed will get Delta IMO, and a fair few vaxxed too.
    That does seem likely.

    The deaths and misery that will result seems pitifully unnecessary.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,336
    dixiedean said:


    Just caught up with Max Whitlock.
    The human body can't adopt such positions .Gravity ought to prevent it.
    And yet I saw it. With my own eyes.
    Sad for the Taiwanese who came second.
    He was flawless.

    Well said. (But the worst haiku we've had tonight).

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,204
    CatMan said:

    Is the fact we're mostly talking about Brexit and not Covid a sign that things are getting back to normal?

    First time I've seen a Corona Beer ad on the telly for a while, so...
  • theProletheProle Posts: 549
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ugh, I'm going to infected with the ghastly Oxford jab aren't I?

    Booster vaccines are to be offered to 32million Britons starting early next month with up to 2,000 pharmacies set to deliver the programme, The Telegraph can disclose.

    Amid fears that the efficacy of the vaccines may begin to decline, ministers are planning to deliver an average of almost 2.5million third doses a week starting in the first week of September.

    Pharmacies will be at the forefront of the vaccine programme so that GPs and other NHS staff can focus on the growing backlog of patients waiting for other treatments.

    All adults aged 50 and over, as well as the immuno-suppressed, will be offered the booster jabs.

    The campaign could start as soon as Sept 6, which would see the rollout completed by early December if it goes to plan. It is hoped the timetable will leave at least a fortnight for the final people vaccinated to benefit from the jab's effect before Christmas....

    ...Ministers are considering giving people a different booster jab to the shot they received for their first and second dose, after early trials suggested that mixing vaccines could provoke an enhanced immune response. It could mean a significant reduction in the use of AstraZeneca jabs.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/01/vaccine-booster-shots-32m-begin-next-month/

    Thr Daily Mail has the opposite story that it will all be Pfizer. 🤷🏼‍♂️
    I think it will be a mix and 2.5m doses per weeks seems very low. We should easily be able to call up all groups 1-6 immediately and get them done at a rate of 4-5m per week given that our current roll out has ground to a halt.
    I get the impression that there is a lot of debate about whether booster vaccines actually serve any useful purpose or whether the push for them is being pushed at least in part by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.

    There is a serious danger that the Government/Scientists might use them to create a new measure of "progress" to inform the reintroduction of restrictions over the winter.
    Ultimately we've already paid for them and if anything having a booster programme is very much a safety first approach. As I said I'd be shocked if it takes beyond the end of October to complete it we already have plenty of the three major vaccines in fridges around the country.

    Booster doses result in an 8-20x boost in antibodies, that alone will give is a pretty good reduction in the R as many millions become fully immune from infection. The booster programme should be open to everyone 4 months after their second dose. We really need to play it safe and just get everyone who wants one a booster shot. Going into winter we should do whatever it takes to avoid a repeat of last year.
    Serious question - might we not do a lot better donating the lot to the 3rd world, where even single doses will make a huge difference, rather than using them to give us marginal gains here. This wave peaking with barely any deaths seems to me to demonstrate fairly effectively that we should stop worrying about Covid in a UK context, so I'm a bit bemused, both by the government's panic about low take up in the (barely vulnerable) young - if they want to aquire immunity by infection, its up to them, and also by the wild enthusiasm for booster programs.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    Scott_xP said:

    This thread does illustrate an important point about Brexit.

    Even those that wanted it, voted for it, believed in the project, can no longer be bothered to defend it.

    Their only recourse is not to talk about it, pretend it isn't happening and hope we all forget...

    We don’t talk about it because it triggers Remoaners into endless boring rants.

    Leavers just want to get on with their lives
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,698

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    A failure covered by the invisibility cloak also known as Covid 19. Shortages of food and medicines-Covid, shortages of labour-Covid, shortages of carers and nurses- Covid and shortages of transport- Covid. Now I don't deny Covid has a big effect on these issues, but Brexit's response to all these problems is one of "not me squire".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
    I love you too Dura Ace.

    What about damascene leavers?
    Are those the ones that have made a silk purse?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    stodge said:

    Late evening all :)

    Just a comment on the piece in tomorrow's Guardian including the quote from Steve Baker MP.

    I suspect many would find the notion of deprivation and poverty in places like High Wycombe risible.

    It's not - there's a lot of relative poverty in the south and south-east - it's often masked by the larger areas of wealth but it is foolish to deny their existence.

    The cost of housing, for example, is one of those key measures which mark out the real problems some face in the supposedly affluent areas.

    I’m not sure relative poverty should be the right measure
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    MrEd said:

    I think it now time to introduce a contentious topic of conversation -

    Alfred Dreyfus - traitor, maligned, or the innocent victim is a bungled intelligence operation?

    He was French, he deserved everything he got.
    You might say that in jest but it’s fairly racist.
    As opposed to unfairly racist?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    Spot on.

    Society is an organic community. Rules are put in place for convenience but once those rules become an end in their self it’s problematic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,813
    edited August 2
    It's regrettable the whole Brexit saga ended up the way it did. Some sort of compromise between the two sides would have been preferable, and probably would have happened in the era before social media when everyone was more reasonable.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894

    Now for a *really* contentious issue....

    The Schleswig-Holstein Question

    Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business – the Prince Consort, who is dead – a German professor, who has gone mad – and I, who have forgotten all about it.
    The arrogance of the man! Claiming 2 Germans and a Brit were the only people able to understand where the boundary between two Danish provinces should be
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894

    carnforth said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    Well said
    I recall having a conversation with some fairly progressive lawyers on the subject of crime and punishment.

    They wanted to end all arrests and prosecutions for shop lifting. In their view these just harassed marginalised people (their clients) and did nothing they (the lawyers) wanted.

    That found my points about what would happen... worrying and unacceptable. I pointed out that they were, in effect, suggesting withdrawing legal protection from shop keepers. Who would then invent their own system of justice to protect themselves.

    I came to realise, that in their world, once they had "proved" that shoplifting prosecutions were a "human rights" issue, they owned the answer. Anyone who thought different, was immoral and wrong in a nearly religious sense.

    To them, society is a system which they are the leaders of. Their version of the social contract is that people obey the rules they provide.
    Some cities in the US currently have these laws....no prosecution if you take under $x00. All that happens is they walk in, take that amount, walk out, return an hour later, rinse and repeat.

    Some amended it to per day....so they just send in multiple people every day.
    To such an extent that some retailers are just shutting up shop:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/san-francisco-shoplifting-walgreens-closing-b1852470.html

    "Walgreens has closed 17 of its stores due to rampant stealing, and CVS has called the city ‘one of the epicenters of organized retail crime’"
    Who could have predicted that....it has to be one of the dumbest ideas going.
    The anti-theft measures automated in the Amazon physical shops have even been called inhumane... since they make shop lifting rather difficult.
    Link?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    That and that we genuinely quite despise leavers wishing them nothing but ill.
    But don't you hate everyone ?

    Was that a consequence of being kicked out of the RN or a cause ?
    There is rather an unpleasant atmosphere on here tonight, and your final paragraph is about as personally unpleasant as it gets.
    Its odd, on the rare occasions I have tried to annoy people I rarely get a response.

    But when I haven't I sometimes do.

    And I certainly bear no ill will to DA, who incidentally has mentioned his departure from the RN (the tuktuk affair) many times and also boasts of his antipathy towards much of the country (though whether he really does I don't know).
    Dura Ace is an anti vaxxer. He wants the rest of us to die because he can’t be arsed to have an injection. It’s hard to get more antipathetic than THAT
    It’s because they are tested on animals. I think that’s a daft philosophy but he has a consistent worldview
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    There is one big caveat to that, namely when the rules and laws work in their favour.

    The EU was a big plus for upper professional classes who relied on cheap labour to do building jobs, clean their houses, waiter at their favourite restaurants and, of course, when it meant they could holiday in France or Portugal in their second homes without waiting with the plebs.

    If the rules were against their interests, they would be crying foul ad infinitum
    Did working class people never use a plumber or have building works, or buy beer from a Slovakian barmaid, nor have their mother looked after by Polish nursing home staff?
    Builders - unlikely, given the cost involved and / or they would do it themselves and / or use friends

    Beer - yes but so what? The beer companies would put up the price of beer regardless of the cost of Labour. The profit went to the beer companies not the consumer. Just look at how much beer in bars has risen?

    Nursing homes - again, if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries

    Counter point, Poorer people see far more fat to day impact when it comes to their kids at school having bigger classes and / or resources switched to non-English speaking pupils, plus bigger queues at the doctors for treatment.
    You do realise around half of nursing home residents are state funded ?
    I do. And I am sure you realise that most of the staff are not coming from non-U.K., EU countries?
    Most of them are Uk
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    There is one big caveat to that, namely when the rules and laws work in their favour.

    The EU was a big plus for upper professional classes who relied on cheap labour to do building jobs, clean their houses, waiter at their favourite restaurants and, of course, when it meant they could holiday in France or Portugal in their second homes without waiting with the plebs.

    If the rules were against their interests, they would be crying foul ad infinitum
    Did working class people never use a plumber or have building works, or buy beer from a Slovakian barmaid, nor have their mother looked after by Polish nursing home staff?
    Builders - unlikely, given the cost involved and / or they would do it themselves and / or use friends

    Beer - yes but so what? The beer companies would put up the price of beer regardless of the cost of Labour. The profit went to the beer companies not the consumer. Just look at how much beer in bars has risen?

    Nursing homes - again, if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries

    Counter point, Poorer people see far more fat to day impact when it comes to their kids at school having bigger classes and / or resources switched to non-English speaking pupils, plus bigger queues at the doctors for treatment.
    You do realise around half of nursing home residents are state funded ?
    I do. And I am sure you realise that most of the staff are not coming from non-U.K., EU countries?
    So, if you are poor, you may well still put you mum in a private nursing home.
    And you’re also apparently wrong about ‘most of the staff’:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/internationalmigrationandthehealthcareworkforce/2019-08-15
    Err, have you actually looked at what that data quoted - it said EU nationals were more likely to work in the private health sector than non-EU or U.K. staff.

    Not exactly backing your case that EU staff are holding up state nursing homes...
    Why do you imagine there is a clear distinction between state and private nursing homes ?
    A good deal of the clients of the private sector (which accounts for the vast majority of such homes in the UK) are council funded.
    Increasingly there is a clear distinction - private only homes have wet rooms, all en-suite, all single occupancy. Usually purpose built and with better common parts and amenities. Local authority homes are often converted and first to third generation properties
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    There is one big caveat to that, namely when the rules and laws work in their favour.

    The EU was a big plus for upper professional classes who relied on cheap labour to do building jobs, clean their houses, waiter at their favourite restaurants and, of course, when it meant they could holiday in France or Portugal in their second homes without waiting with the plebs.

    If the rules were against their interests, they would be crying foul ad infinitum
    Did working class people never use a plumber or have building works, or buy beer from a Slovakian barmaid, nor have their mother looked after by Polish nursing home staff?
    Builders - unlikely, given the cost involved and / or they would do it themselves and / or use friends

    Beer - yes but so what? The beer companies would put up the price of beer regardless of the cost of Labour. The profit went to the beer companies not the consumer. Just look at how much beer in bars has risen?

    Nursing homes - again, if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries

    Counter point, Poorer people see far more fat to day impact when it comes to their kids at school having bigger classes and / or resources switched to non-English speaking pupils, plus bigger queues at the doctors for treatment.
    You do realise around half of nursing home residents are state funded ?
    I do. And I am sure you realise that most of the staff are not coming from non-U.K., EU countries?
    So, if you are poor, you may well still put you mum in a private nursing home.
    And you’re also apparently wrong about ‘most of the staff’:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/internationalmigrationandthehealthcareworkforce/2019-08-15
    Err, have you actually looked at what that data quoted - it said EU nationals were more likely to work in the private health sector than non-EU or U.K. staff.

    Not exactly backing your case that EU staff are holding up state nursing homes...
    Why do you imagine there is a clear distinction between state and private nursing homes ?
    A good deal of the clients of the private sector (which accounts for the vast majority of such homes in the UK) are council funded.
    Three things;

    1. On that data, 88pc of health staff are U.K. nationals. EU staff do not hold up the system;
    2. Of the 12pc, the data states 6pc are EU and 6pc non-EU staff.
    3. On your specific point, yes councils fund non-state homes but, given the very definitions, it is more likely that poorer older people are in state homes than private ones
    There are relatively few state owned / operated homes but there is an increasing distinction between the homes that are mainly private and those that are mainly LA
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    It’s a remarkable spectacle, full blown late stage Remoanerism in action. It is definitely a mental syndrome, as we have often discussed on here. It must be a syndrome because the symptoms and behaviourisms are so similar across a wide spectrum of people of different ages

    It is an entire social class that has always had its own way, fundamentally - until this sudden, brutal reverse. They can’t cope. For the first time in their lives, they are serious Losers
    Recognising how irrational people on my previous side of the debate had become was a big factor in me changing my position.

    I think there might be something in the theory that the people at the top and the bottom of society both have a common understanding that you can't run a society by laws alone, whereas the upper professional classes have an absolute faith in process and systems and rules, so withdrawing from what they see as a rules-based system (however much the reality belies that) just doesn't compute.
    There is one big caveat to that, namely when the rules and laws work in their favour.

    The EU was a big plus for upper professional classes who relied on cheap labour to do building jobs, clean their houses, waiter at their favourite restaurants and, of course, when it meant they could holiday in France or Portugal in their second homes without waiting with the plebs.

    If the rules were against their interests, they would be crying foul ad infinitum
    Did working class people never use a plumber or have building works, or buy beer from a Slovakian barmaid, nor have their mother looked after by Polish nursing home staff?
    Builders - unlikely, given the cost involved and / or they would do it themselves and / or use friends

    Beer - yes but so what? The beer companies would put up the price of beer regardless of the cost of Labour. The profit went to the beer companies not the consumer. Just look at how much beer in bars has risen?

    Nursing homes - again, if you are poor, you are not going to put your mother in a private nursing home. And a far greater proportion are from non-EU countries

    Counter point, Poorer people see far more fat to day impact when it comes to their kids at school having bigger classes and / or resources switched to non-English speaking pupils, plus bigger queues at the doctors for treatment.
    You do realise around half of nursing home residents are state funded ?
    I do. And I am sure you realise that most of the staff are not coming from non-U.K., EU countries?
    So, if you are poor, you may well still put you mum in a private nursing home.
    And you’re also apparently wrong about ‘most of the staff’:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/internationalmigrationandthehealthcareworkforce/2019-08-15
    Err, have you actually looked at what that data quoted - it said EU nationals were more likely to work in the private health sector than non-EU or U.K. staff.

    Not exactly backing your case that EU staff are holding up state nursing homes...
    Why do you imagine there is a clear distinction between state and private nursing homes ?
    A good deal of the clients of the private sector (which accounts for the vast majority of such homes in the UK) are council funded.
    Three things;

    1. On that data, 88pc of health staff are U.K. nationals. EU staff do not hold up the system;
    2. Of the 12pc, the data states 6pc are EU and 6pc non-EU staff.
    3. On your specific point, yes councils fund non-state homes but, given the very definitions, it is more likely that poorer older people are in state homes than private ones
    There are relatively few state owned / operated homes but there is an increasing distinction between the homes that are mainly private and those that are mainly LA
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894
    Leon said:

    This weather is dismal. A week of rain ahead. Pfff

    23C and sunny here…
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,444
    Andy_JS said:

    It's regrettable the whole Brexit saga ended up the way it did. Some sort of compromise between the two sides would have been preferable, and probably would have happened in the era before social media when everyone was more reasonable.

    Had the brakes been put on in 1993 or 2007, there would have been no Brexit. But governments in 1992 and 2007 ploughed on with no referendum precisely because they thought they would lose it. And thus, the rise of UKIP. Had any of the main partied attempted to reflect popular opinion even s little bit on the issue, we'd have ended up in a Europe we were broadly content with.
    The entire political class is responsible for Brexit through its failure at any point to compromise with the electorate until it was far too late
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
    No, I can’t reassure them. And you know why? Because as soon as I calmly say ‘we now elect and reject those who govern us and…’ they go mad. They start jumping up and down like you. They froth and rage about Boris and Dom and ‘drooling fuckwit racist Leavers’ - on and on and on. Like enraged toddlers. It really is deeply embarrassing - for them.

    The last time it happened - quite recently - a good friend (works in TV, Cambridge graduate) ended up purple-faced and frantically screaming about ‘the Nazi Tories’. I do not exaggerate.

    At this point his wife (also a Remoaner, but saner) put a calming hand on his shoulder and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and realised the entire pub was looking at him in horror. So he shut the fuck up and stayed quiet for the rest of the evening
    Their hatred is continually refueled by the failure of the disaster they so confidently predicted and so desperately wanted to happen.
    A failure covered by the invisibility cloak also known as Covid 19. Shortages of food and medicines-Covid, shortages of labour-Covid, shortages of carers and nurses- Covid and shortages of transport- Covid. Now I don't deny Covid has a big effect on these issues, but Brexit's response to all these problems is one of "not me squire".
    People claiming there are shortages of food sound deranged to anyone who goes to a supermarket.

    And I do love the shift from "there will be millions unemployed" to "there are shortages of labour" - it could come from the party orator in 1984.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    Laura Collet jumping now on bbc1
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    IshmaelZ said:

    Laura Collet jumping now on bbc1

    And just one penalty. Yay!
This discussion has been closed.