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  • HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    My bet is that the UK will still be here in 20 years and people will still be predicting its imminent dissolution

    GB may still be intact but the UK may no longer include NI. as opposed to the SNP, SF have a defined end state for NI without most of the messy bits. They may also be able to convince the UK government to keep contributing for an extended period.
    I am pretty sure NI will stay ‘British’ because of the threat of violence - from both sides

    I can foresee some form of dual sovereignty that fudges the issue, however. Ulster is nearly there already - they get the best of both worlds. EU and UK citizenship. Free Movement but also the UK market, access to London, British universities, etc
    That requires the current situation for NI actually working, or the EU & UK finding a way of making it work. There is evidence at the moment that it's not working and no evidence that the EU or UK are prepared to change their positions. unlike for Scotland there is a treaty which has been signed by the UK government which determines if and when a referendum (border poll) can happen and how often. SF will get their border poll, especially if they can show that the NI assembly will not work in it's current form.
    I completely disagree. Look at the ‘border in the Irish sea’ which potentially meant no British biscuits in Belfast Tesco’s. That got the loyalist paramilitaries murmuring about violence and suddenly everyone had 2nd thoughts

    A border poll would be that times a thousand. Especially if it looked like unification might win. Guaranteed return to the Troubles. No one wants that, not even Sinn Fein

    It will be fudged for the foreseeable future
    There clearly needs to be change in the constitutional status of NI as the assembly isn't working. No-one is prepared to reopen the GFA to resolve the issues. SF will continue to push for the border poll and it might win. the current situation in regards to the EU isn't full EU membership and, as much as people won't admit it in the government, neither is it full membership of the UK. that won't work long term and NI will eventually have to choose one or the other.
    Or else PM Starmer gets in and aligns GB back closer to the single market and customs union, effectively removing the Irish Sea border anyway and largely restoring the GB and Ireland single market as was the case pre Brexit
    The EU are not going to want to significantly renegotiate any time soon. and Labour would lose a GE in England with an explicit position to do so.
    Labour would lose a GE in England in 2024 certainly but not necessarily in the UK, it is perfectly possible the Tories win another majority in England next time but Starmer gets in thanks to Welsh Labour MPs and SNP support.

    As long as Starmer then accepted more single market and customs union regulation the EU would agree a closer alignment again, even if not full SM membership as before absent FOM
    Indeed, a cycle of five yearly reviews is built into the TCA process;

    https://davidallengreen.com/2020/12/this-agreement-is-not-the-end-of-brexit-it-is-a-five-year-political-truce/

    And whilst it would be a brave, even mad, politician who suggested even full SM/CU alignment in the 2025 renegotiation, a platform of "it's not going very well, is it? Here are some harmless ways to sand off the rough edges" could well be hard to oppose. EEA-by-another-name at the 2030 review, on the other hand...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,650

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Holy shit. That's a massive fucking bullshit decision.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,114
    DougSeal said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    My bet is that the UK will still be here in 20 years and people will still be predicting its imminent dissolution

    GB may still be intact but the UK may no longer include NI. as opposed to the SNP, SF have a defined end state for NI without most of the messy bits. They may also be able to convince the UK government to keep contributing for an extended period.
    I am pretty sure NI will stay ‘British’ because of the threat of violence - from both sides

    I can foresee some form of dual sovereignty that fudges the issue, however. Ulster is nearly there already - they get the best of both worlds. EU and UK citizenship. Free Movement but also the UK market, access to London, British universities, etc
    That requires the current situation for NI actually working, or the EU & UK finding a way of making it work. There is evidence at the moment that it's not working and no evidence that the EU or UK are prepared to change their positions. unlike for Scotland there is a treaty which has been signed by the UK government which determines if and when a referendum (border poll) can happen and how often. SF will get their border poll, especially if they can show that the NI assembly will not work in it's current form.
    I completely disagree. Look at the ‘border in the Irish sea’ which potentially meant no British biscuits in Belfast Tesco’s. That got the loyalist paramilitaries murmuring about violence and suddenly everyone had 2nd thoughts

    A border poll would be that times a thousand. Especially if it looked like unification might win. Guaranteed return to the Troubles. No one wants that, not even Sinn Fein

    It will be fudged for the foreseeable future
    There clearly needs to be change in the constitutional status of NI as the assembly isn't working. No-one is prepared to reopen the GFA to resolve the issues. SF will continue to push for the border poll and it might win. the current situation in regards to the EU isn't full EU membership and, as much as people won't admit it in the government, neither is it full membership of the UK. that won't work long term and NI will eventually have to choose one or the other.
    Or else PM Starmer gets in and aligns GB back closer to the single market and customs union, effectively removing the Irish Sea border anyway and largely restoring the GB and Ireland single market as was the case pre Brexit
    The EU are not going to want to significantly renegotiate any time soon. and Labour would lose a GE in England with an explicit position to do so.
    Labour would lose a GE in England in 2024 certainly but not necessarily in the UK, it is perfectly possible the Tories win another majority in England next time but Starmer gets in thanks to Welsh Labour MPs and SNP support.

    As long as Starmer then accepted more single market and customs union regulation the EU would agree a closer alignment again, even if not full SM membership as before absent FOM
    The EU wouldn't do it, and would say so when it was floated. The most they'd offer is EFTA which most leavers wouldn't vote for.
    I’m not sure that’s right. They moan about the Swiss arrangement but that survives. I see something similar for England in the future.
    But the Swiss don't go for a significant renegotiation just 10 years after the last one when they pulled out of the institutions which involved significant negotiations. The Swiss have slowly joined certain things but it's not the kind of renegotiation that the UK'd be after
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Well, if the reason is as stated, that’s very unfortunate for Vettel but I suppose rules are rules (unless you drive a Ferrari or a Mercedes, of course).

    Hopefully it is not an abject and craven excuse for punishing him in a sneaky way for the t-shirt saga.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    IshmaelZ said:

    isam said:

    Stocky said:

    @MarqueeMark just read your post this morning.

    Even I, who doesn't rate Johnson as PM, agree that the anti-Johnson criticism on here is incessant and often pathological - but please don't leave the site.

    Seconded.. Stuart Dixon started off in filthy mode this morning. I pointed out to him that he wouldn't like it if La Sturgeon was so castigated.
    Why is Starmer is c*** acceptable yet Johnson is c*** is unacceptable?

    What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?
    Do people say how disgusted they are at the thought of Sir Keir’s wife sleeping with him? I can’t remember it.
    I have never said that.

    My beef with Johnson is, that in my opinion, he chose what was best for himself, rather than what he thought was best for the country.

    Additionally I wouldn't run my personal life in the way he runs his, and I don't think he is a good role model, but that is entirely his own business.
    You might not have others have.
    The case against Johnson is that he conspired with Gove and Cummings to procure Brexit when none of them wanted or believed in it, and all of them thought it would advance them personally. The key is not whether you think Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, it's what they thought about it. That is about as evil as it gets, short of Fred West or falling foul of the Godwin principle, and compared to that I thing satirical comment on his goings on with that pound shop Clara Petacci woman are pretty small beer.
    Be my guest, but expect to be called out on it. Tony Blair was worse than Johnson. Millions died because of him .
    Blair was fundamentally silly, slightly mad and more than slightly starstruck when dealing with PsOTUS. Millions didn't die because of him, though, that's nonsense. Things would have unfolded exactly as they did whether we went in with the US or not. All he did was buy the country a lot of guilt by association.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,147
    edited August 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Well, if the reason is as stated, that’s very unfortunate for Vettel but I suppose rules are rules (unless you drive a Ferrari or a Mercedes, of course).

    Hopefully it is not an abject and craven excuse for punishing him in a sneaky way for the t-shirt saga.
    IIRC Hamilton and others have been punished for similar transgressions.

    Edit - In Hamilton's situation he qualified first but was sent to the back of the grid.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/18047760
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I wasn't watching, but the way this is reported makes it sound lovely, but was it out of sportsmanship? I mean, had they gone to a jump-off presumably one of them would have missed out on the gold, so avoiding that took away the risk for either. So even if they were being entirely noble, they happened to benefit.

    An incredible Olympic high jump final ended with both Qatar's Mutaz Essa Barshim and Italy's Gianmarco Tamberi taking gold medals...

    The athletes were offered an opportunity to take part in a jump-off.

    But in a moment of sportsmanship, they agreed to share the title, sparking huge celebrations
    .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/58048827

    They'd been at it for two hours and could not be split. My guess is they were both knackered in the Tokyo heat so any result would not have reflected their merit.

    Take an example everyone (of a certain age) remembers, the Dennis Taylor/Steve Davis snooker final. Classic. 18 million viewers staying up past midnight. But when you watch the ending on Youtube, both players are out on their feet, missing gimmes and even having trouble walking.

    Split the gold? I'd rather they came back tomorrow but that wasn't an option so why not?
    I agree why not - but it still doesn't seem like it was out of sportsmanship when it conveniently means neither risks losing out for being .1% less fit or some such. Same logic would suggest you call a world cup win after 90 minutes since they are tired at the end so it wouldn't reflect true merit.

    I don't think that cynical thought will have been in their minds, but the fact is both benefit from the move, so I think it is valid to note that their sportsmanlike conduct is convenient for them, whether they intended it or not.
    I was surprised it was offered but not surprised the offer was accepted. They both get gold. It's a total win win. That's rare in life. It's usually just a soundbite not a literal truth.
    I wonder if in the morning one will regret it when they look at the Wikipedia entry?
    Maybe but I wouldn't. They're not sharing the gold. It's one each.
    Yes and no. It's basically half each. Bad decision I think.
    That's because you're a liberal individualist and I'm a communitarian. Communitarians like shared golds.
    The decision devalues the gold. If either athlete truly thinks they have gold they are deluded. But, of course, they don't really think that - not really. So it is ultimately unfair on the athletes.

    It is also unfair verses other events. The long jump, for example, will have a gold, silver and bronze. The high jump gold, gold and bronze.

    Perhaps they should have awarded two silver pluses?

    The above train of thought is rooted in liberalism, I guess, but it is mainly rooted in logic.
    What I mean is I personally would have accepted the offer in their case. But I agree that the offer itself wasn't a good idea. It's out of line with the norm and there's a good reason for the norm. Gold Silver Bronze.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited August 2021
    Cheating Vettel DQed from GP.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,382

    SKY have completely removed this story from their website - but it's still on Yahoo:

    The decrease in the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases released by the government each day "looks a bit fishy", according to a leading symptoms researcher whose study has shown infections are on the rise.

    Professor Tim Spector, who co-founded the ZOE COVID Symptom Study app, said a "sudden drop" in people testing positive for the virus in the government's data is "very suspicious".


    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-uks-daily-coronavirus-073200716.html

    Here's Eric the panicker's tweet about it:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1420822158092218371?s=20

    if you are interested here is the youtube vidio of Prof Tim Spector talking about it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p7ok5aIX6s

    his/ZOE tracking has been really useful up to now. It is made public very quick, he has a big number of uses entering data in to their apps, for his team to prosses, and his data is that cases have basically flattened out not fallen.

    However, and its a big however, as he notes, his data is bases of a self selecting cohort, of people who have downloaded the app, and has very few people who have not had the vaccine. if the decline was mostly in the unvaccinated, (possibly because so many of them have now already had the viruses), then his date would not show it.

    there will be 2 more indicators to look for:

    1) The ONS weekly survey.
    2) hospital addmitions.

    However both of theses are lagging indicators, there for it will still be another week or so before we really know what's happening.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,650
    spudgfsh said:

    DougSeal said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    My bet is that the UK will still be here in 20 years and people will still be predicting its imminent dissolution

    GB may still be intact but the UK may no longer include NI. as opposed to the SNP, SF have a defined end state for NI without most of the messy bits. They may also be able to convince the UK government to keep contributing for an extended period.
    I am pretty sure NI will stay ‘British’ because of the threat of violence - from both sides

    I can foresee some form of dual sovereignty that fudges the issue, however. Ulster is nearly there already - they get the best of both worlds. EU and UK citizenship. Free Movement but also the UK market, access to London, British universities, etc
    That requires the current situation for NI actually working, or the EU & UK finding a way of making it work. There is evidence at the moment that it's not working and no evidence that the EU or UK are prepared to change their positions. unlike for Scotland there is a treaty which has been signed by the UK government which determines if and when a referendum (border poll) can happen and how often. SF will get their border poll, especially if they can show that the NI assembly will not work in it's current form.
    I completely disagree. Look at the ‘border in the Irish sea’ which potentially meant no British biscuits in Belfast Tesco’s. That got the loyalist paramilitaries murmuring about violence and suddenly everyone had 2nd thoughts

    A border poll would be that times a thousand. Especially if it looked like unification might win. Guaranteed return to the Troubles. No one wants that, not even Sinn Fein

    It will be fudged for the foreseeable future
    There clearly needs to be change in the constitutional status of NI as the assembly isn't working. No-one is prepared to reopen the GFA to resolve the issues. SF will continue to push for the border poll and it might win. the current situation in regards to the EU isn't full EU membership and, as much as people won't admit it in the government, neither is it full membership of the UK. that won't work long term and NI will eventually have to choose one or the other.
    Or else PM Starmer gets in and aligns GB back closer to the single market and customs union, effectively removing the Irish Sea border anyway and largely restoring the GB and Ireland single market as was the case pre Brexit
    The EU are not going to want to significantly renegotiate any time soon. and Labour would lose a GE in England with an explicit position to do so.
    Labour would lose a GE in England in 2024 certainly but not necessarily in the UK, it is perfectly possible the Tories win another majority in England next time but Starmer gets in thanks to Welsh Labour MPs and SNP support.

    As long as Starmer then accepted more single market and customs union regulation the EU would agree a closer alignment again, even if not full SM membership as before absent FOM
    The EU wouldn't do it, and would say so when it was floated. The most they'd offer is EFTA which most leavers wouldn't vote for.
    I’m not sure that’s right. They moan about the Swiss arrangement but that survives. I see something similar for England in the future.
    But the Swiss don't go for a significant renegotiation just 10 years after the last one when they pulled out of the institutions which involved significant negotiations. The Swiss have slowly joined certain things but it's not the kind of renegotiation that the UK'd be after
    The TCA has got a review every five years built into it. The EU thought it would be a good way of keeping the UK in line but it looks like it will go the other way with the UK asking for dilution of the deal to accommodate regulatory divergence without incurring tariffs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    My bet is that the UK will still be here in 20 years and people will still be predicting its imminent dissolution

    GB may still be intact but the UK may no longer include NI. as opposed to the SNP, SF have a defined end state for NI without most of the messy bits. They may also be able to convince the UK government to keep contributing for an extended period.
    I am pretty sure NI will stay ‘British’ because of the threat of violence - from both sides

    I can foresee some form of dual sovereignty that fudges the issue, however. Ulster is nearly there already - they get the best of both worlds. EU and UK citizenship. Free Movement but also the UK market, access to London, British universities, etc
    That requires the current situation for NI actually working, or the EU & UK finding a way of making it work. There is evidence at the moment that it's not working and no evidence that the EU or UK are prepared to change their positions. unlike for Scotland there is a treaty which has been signed by the UK government which determines if and when a referendum (border poll) can happen and how often. SF will get their border poll, especially if they can show that the NI assembly will not work in it's current form.
    I completely disagree. Look at the ‘border in the Irish sea’ which potentially meant no British biscuits in Belfast Tesco’s. That got the loyalist paramilitaries murmuring about violence and suddenly everyone had 2nd thoughts

    A border poll would be that times a thousand. Especially if it looked like unification might win. Guaranteed return to the Troubles. No one wants that, not even Sinn Fein

    It will be fudged for the foreseeable future
    There clearly needs to be change in the constitutional status of NI as the assembly isn't working. No-one is prepared to reopen the GFA to resolve the issues. SF will continue to push for the border poll and it might win. the current situation in regards to the EU isn't full EU membership and, as much as people won't admit it in the government, neither is it full membership of the UK. that won't work long term and NI will eventually have to choose one or the other.
    Or else PM Starmer gets in and aligns GB back closer to the single market and customs union, effectively removing the Irish Sea border anyway and largely restoring the GB and Ireland single market as was the case pre Brexit
    The EU are not going to want to significantly renegotiate any time soon. and Labour would lose a GE in England with an explicit position to do so.
    Labour would lose a GE in England in 2024 certainly but not necessarily in the UK, it is perfectly possible the Tories win another majority in England next time but Starmer gets in thanks to Welsh Labour MPs and SNP support.

    As long as Starmer then accepted more single market and customs union regulation the EU would agree a closer alignment again, even if not full SM membership as before absent FOM
    The EU wouldn't do it, and would say so when it was floated. The most they'd offer is EFTA which most leavers wouldn't vote for.
    Starmer would certainly rejoin the CU with all the EU regulations that flowed from that straight away, he may not rejoin the full SM however due to FOM going down badly in the RedWall but he would at least have the SM regulations May had as part of her deal.

    Starmer would not care what most Leavers thought as even if he became PM it would be mainly due to Remainers, the majority of Leavers would still have voted for Boris
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right

  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:



    “I haven’t spoken to anyone particularly about it but I think it is lingering,” he said. “I remember the effects when I had it. The training has been different since then and the levels of fatigue you get are different and it’s a real challenge. So [I am] just continuing to try and train and prepare the best way I can. Who knows what it is today? Maybe it’s hydration but I’ve definitely not had that experience. I had something similar in Silverstone but this is way worse.”

    Hamilton also gave his wholehearted support to Sebastian Vettel who was issued with a reprimand by the FIA for not removing his rainbow-coloured T-shirt with the words “Same Love” on it, in support of the LGBTQ+ community in Hungary who are being targeted by repressive laws.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/aug/01/lewis-hamilton-fears-he-has-long-covid-after-hungarian-gp-exhaustion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Poor guy.

    On the politics side, I think the attempt by sporting associations to suppress competitors' wish to express opinions is getting oppressive. I get that some people may not like some slogans and gestures, and maybe it'll affect their support and they'll hope someone else wins. But taking part in a sport shouldn't be like joining the civil service, never to express an opinion again. Vettel has a view? Fine, get over it. And I'd say the same if he had the opposite view.
    No, you wouldn’t

    If a driver had a t-shirt saying ‘imprison gays’ or ‘expel illegal immigrants’ or ‘vote BNP’ or ‘hang cop killers’ you’d denounce him, despite these opinions being perfectly legal, and, in some cases, quite common
    That's wholly different.

    Vettel's message is wholly positive, yours (quoted) are generally negative. A more appropriate comparison would be, say, a pro-Trump T-Shirt. I suspect exactly the same reprimand would have been issued, and there would be plenty condemning the reprimand.
    QED. You see them as ‘negative’ because you disagree with them. You only approve of political statements you approve. Lefties are so fricking stupid it’s BORING
    Three of your examples incite physical harm to various groups.

    Vettel’s slogan didn’t.

    There is a difference there.
    Jail is not physical harm. It’s judicial punishment - and the law in many countries, especially Islamic. Expelling illegal immigrants is, likewise, not a physical threat, just a promise of firm borders. And so forth.
    You think those two don’t involve elements of physical harm?

    Well, it’s a view.

    Maybe you should put it on a T-shirt...
    I’m pretty sure ‘expel illegal immigrants’ is simply a pithy way of expressing British law, as it stands, right now

    It’s quite telling that PB lefties nonetheless think this is a violent, threatening statement which cannot be allowed on a t-shirt, whereas all the nice fluffy lefty opinions they agree with are, by pure coincidence, totally acceptable
    I take it you don't agree with Vettel's support for LGBTQ+ rights in Hungary?
    I totally agree with gay rights as they stand in the UK, and I think Orban is a deeply sinister character in many ways

    My point was much more about political statements within sport. If you allow those you agree with, you must allow sentiments you dislike. As we see on here, many can’t cope with that
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    Leon said:

    The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right

    BoZo didn't, didn't and doesn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,521

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,136
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right
    It's clear from all of Boris Johnson's earlier writing that he was a cultural Europhile but an institutional Eurosceptic. The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    edited August 2021
    MaxPB said:

    spudgfsh said:

    DougSeal said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Leon said:

    My bet is that the UK will still be here in 20 years and people will still be predicting its imminent dissolution

    GB may still be intact but the UK may no longer include NI. as opposed to the SNP, SF have a defined end state for NI without most of the messy bits. They may also be able to convince the UK government to keep contributing for an extended period.
    I am pretty sure NI will stay ‘British’ because of the threat of violence - from both sides

    I can foresee some form of dual sovereignty that fudges the issue, however. Ulster is nearly there already - they get the best of both worlds. EU and UK citizenship. Free Movement but also the UK market, access to London, British universities, etc
    That requires the current situation for NI actually working, or the EU & UK finding a way of making it work. There is evidence at the moment that it's not working and no evidence that the EU or UK are prepared to change their positions. unlike for Scotland there is a treaty which has been signed by the UK government which determines if and when a referendum (border poll) can happen and how often. SF will get their border poll, especially if they can show that the NI assembly will not work in it's current form.
    I completely disagree. Look at the ‘border in the Irish sea’ which potentially meant no British biscuits in Belfast Tesco’s. That got the loyalist paramilitaries murmuring about violence and suddenly everyone had 2nd thoughts

    A border poll would be that times a thousand. Especially if it looked like unification might win. Guaranteed return to the Troubles. No one wants that, not even Sinn Fein

    It will be fudged for the foreseeable future
    There clearly needs to be change in the constitutional status of NI as the assembly isn't working. No-one is prepared to reopen the GFA to resolve the issues. SF will continue to push for the border poll and it might win. the current situation in regards to the EU isn't full EU membership and, as much as people won't admit it in the government, neither is it full membership of the UK. that won't work long term and NI will eventually have to choose one or the other.
    Or else PM Starmer gets in and aligns GB back closer to the single market and customs union, effectively removing the Irish Sea border anyway and largely restoring the GB and Ireland single market as was the case pre Brexit
    The EU are not going to want to significantly renegotiate any time soon. and Labour would lose a GE in England with an explicit position to do so.
    Labour would lose a GE in England in 2024 certainly but not necessarily in the UK, it is perfectly possible the Tories win another majority in England next time but Starmer gets in thanks to Welsh Labour MPs and SNP support.

    As long as Starmer then accepted more single market and customs union regulation the EU would agree a closer alignment again, even if not full SM membership as before absent FOM
    The EU wouldn't do it, and would say so when it was floated. The most they'd offer is EFTA which most leavers wouldn't vote for.
    I’m not sure that’s right. They moan about the Swiss arrangement but that survives. I see something similar for England in the future.
    But the Swiss don't go for a significant renegotiation just 10 years after the last one when they pulled out of the institutions which involved significant negotiations. The Swiss have slowly joined certain things but it's not the kind of renegotiation that the UK'd be after
    The TCA has got a review every five years built into it. The EU thought it would be a good way of keeping the UK in line but it looks like it will go the other way with the UK asking for dilution of the deal to accommodate regulatory divergence without incurring tariffs.
    It will only lead to further divergence if the Tories are re elected in 2024, if Starmer gets in it will be closer alignment again that results.

    The final destination of Brexit is far from confirmed yet, the 2019 general election result confirmed that Brexit would happen, the next general election result will confirm what it ultimately looks like
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right
    It's clear from all of Boris Johnson's earlier writing that he was a cultural Europhile but an institutional Eurosceptic. The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.
    I know. You’re exactly right. It’s obvious. Can you try and persuade Scott? It would be better for his mental health if he accepted this truth….
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:



    “I haven’t spoken to anyone particularly about it but I think it is lingering,” he said. “I remember the effects when I had it. The training has been different since then and the levels of fatigue you get are different and it’s a real challenge. So [I am] just continuing to try and train and prepare the best way I can. Who knows what it is today? Maybe it’s hydration but I’ve definitely not had that experience. I had something similar in Silverstone but this is way worse.”

    Hamilton also gave his wholehearted support to Sebastian Vettel who was issued with a reprimand by the FIA for not removing his rainbow-coloured T-shirt with the words “Same Love” on it, in support of the LGBTQ+ community in Hungary who are being targeted by repressive laws.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/aug/01/lewis-hamilton-fears-he-has-long-covid-after-hungarian-gp-exhaustion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Poor guy.

    On the politics side, I think the attempt by sporting associations to suppress competitors' wish to express opinions is getting oppressive. I get that some people may not like some slogans and gestures, and maybe it'll affect their support and they'll hope someone else wins. But taking part in a sport shouldn't be like joining the civil service, never to express an opinion again. Vettel has a view? Fine, get over it. And I'd say the same if he had the opposite view.
    No, you wouldn’t

    If a driver had a t-shirt saying ‘imprison gays’ or ‘expel illegal immigrants’ or ‘vote BNP’ or ‘hang cop killers’ you’d denounce him, despite these opinions being perfectly legal, and, in some cases, quite common
    That's wholly different.

    Vettel's message is wholly positive, yours (quoted) are generally negative. A more appropriate comparison would be, say, a pro-Trump T-Shirt. I suspect exactly the same reprimand would have been issued, and there would be plenty condemning the reprimand.
    QED. You see them as ‘negative’ because you disagree with them. You only approve of political statements you approve. Lefties are so fricking stupid it’s BORING
    Three of your examples incite physical harm to various groups.

    Vettel’s slogan didn’t.

    There is a difference there.
    Jail is not physical harm. It’s judicial punishment - and the law in many countries, especially Islamic. Expelling illegal immigrants is, likewise, not a physical threat, just a promise of firm borders. And so forth.
    You think those two don’t involve elements of physical harm?

    Well, it’s a view.

    Maybe you should put it on a T-shirt...
    I’m pretty sure ‘expel illegal immigrants’ is simply a pithy way of expressing British law, as it stands, right now

    It’s quite telling that PB lefties nonetheless think this is a violent, threatening statement which cannot be allowed on a t-shirt, whereas all the nice fluffy lefty opinions they agree with are, by pure coincidence, totally acceptable
    I take it you don't agree with Vettel's support for LGBTQ+ rights in Hungary?
    I totally agree with gay rights as they stand in the UK, and I think Orban is a deeply sinister character in many ways

    My point was much more about political statements within sport. If you allow those you agree with, you must allow sentiments you dislike. As we see on here, many can’t cope with that
    Have you not begun to notice that every time you make a point on this sort of topic you position yourself on the wrong side of history?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
  • kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    Not in 2007. Hamilton was very unlucky that season.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    ‘Brexit appears to be preventing the UK from benefiting fully from the global upswing in trade.’ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/31/its-not-covid-thats-damaging-british-trade-its-brexit
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
    Don't forget Red Bull have four drivers out there.

    Three of them who aren't Verstappen might take it turns to wipe out Hamilton.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044
    Scott_xP said:

    ‘Brexit appears to be preventing the UK from benefiting fully from the global upswing in trade.’ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/31/its-not-covid-thats-damaging-british-trade-its-brexit

    The Guardian...LOL
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right
    It's clear from all of Boris Johnson's earlier writing that he was a cultural Europhile but an institutional Eurosceptic. The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.
    Hips don't lie. Just watch that Johnson Gove presser on 24 June and tell me they were inwardly rejoicing about the vote.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right

    I believe you have accurately summed up the position and I agree that @Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets and life has far too much to enjoy, than to be bound in self inflicted misery
  • Scott_xP said:

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
    Do you have any regrets about cheerleading Cameron's lies ?

    Perhaps he might have bothered with an actual renegotiation with the EU if his fanbois hadn't ra-ra-raed bollox such as 'halved the bill'.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just watch that Johnson Gove presser on 24 June and tell me they were inwardly rejoicing about the vote.

    Some people don't want to admit they were duped...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,700

    Scottish independence vote will happen if public wants it, says Michael Gove

    …Westminster has repeatedly rejected requests from the Scottish government for the necessary powers to hold another vote but the Cabinet Office minister said if the public desire a second referendum, “one would occur”.

    … Gove told the Sunday Mail: “The principle that the people of Scotland, in the right circumstances, can ask that question again is there. I just don’t think that it is right, and the public don’t think it is right, to ask that question at the moment. If it is the case that there is clearly a settled will in favour of a referendum, then one will occur.”

    It is unclear what would convince the UK government that another vote is the “settled will” of Scots but it could mean positive election results for independence parties or continuous polling in favour for a certain period of time.

    … Gove also rejected the chance of a third tilt at the leadership of the Conservatives, after failing in 2016 and 2019. “Historically, people who have run to be prime minister in the Tory party and don’t make it don’t subsequently make it,” he said. “I’ve had two goes and got bronze both times. I don’t think I’ll get the gold medal and I have to recognise that. I think Boris will be prime minister for a good while yet and there is a crop of younger people coming up who would be much better equipped than me.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/01/scottish-independence-vote-will-happen-if-public-wants-it-says-michael-gove

    I don’t think this is complex; all the SNP needs to do is to win the 326 seats necessary to pass the legislation to allow it to call a referendum in Scotland.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:



    “I haven’t spoken to anyone particularly about it but I think it is lingering,” he said. “I remember the effects when I had it. The training has been different since then and the levels of fatigue you get are different and it’s a real challenge. So [I am] just continuing to try and train and prepare the best way I can. Who knows what it is today? Maybe it’s hydration but I’ve definitely not had that experience. I had something similar in Silverstone but this is way worse.”

    Hamilton also gave his wholehearted support to Sebastian Vettel who was issued with a reprimand by the FIA for not removing his rainbow-coloured T-shirt with the words “Same Love” on it, in support of the LGBTQ+ community in Hungary who are being targeted by repressive laws.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/aug/01/lewis-hamilton-fears-he-has-long-covid-after-hungarian-gp-exhaustion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Poor guy.

    On the politics side, I think the attempt by sporting associations to suppress competitors' wish to express opinions is getting oppressive. I get that some people may not like some slogans and gestures, and maybe it'll affect their support and they'll hope someone else wins. But taking part in a sport shouldn't be like joining the civil service, never to express an opinion again. Vettel has a view? Fine, get over it. And I'd say the same if he had the opposite view.
    No, you wouldn’t

    If a driver had a t-shirt saying ‘imprison gays’ or ‘expel illegal immigrants’ or ‘vote BNP’ or ‘hang cop killers’ you’d denounce him, despite these opinions being perfectly legal, and, in some cases, quite common
    That's wholly different.

    Vettel's message is wholly positive, yours (quoted) are generally negative. A more appropriate comparison would be, say, a pro-Trump T-Shirt. I suspect exactly the same reprimand would have been issued, and there would be plenty condemning the reprimand.
    QED. You see them as ‘negative’ because you disagree with them. You only approve of political statements you approve. Lefties are so fricking stupid it’s BORING
    Three of your examples incite physical harm to various groups.

    Vettel’s slogan didn’t.

    There is a difference there.
    Jail is not physical harm. It’s judicial punishment - and the law in many countries, especially Islamic. Expelling illegal immigrants is, likewise, not a physical threat, just a promise of firm borders. And so forth.
    You think those two don’t involve elements of physical harm?

    Well, it’s a view.

    Maybe you should put it on a T-shirt...
    I’m pretty sure ‘expel illegal immigrants’ is simply a pithy way of expressing British law, as it stands, right now

    It’s quite telling that PB lefties nonetheless think this is a violent, threatening statement which cannot be allowed on a t-shirt, whereas all the nice fluffy lefty opinions they agree with are, by pure coincidence, totally acceptable
    I take it you don't agree with Vettel's support for LGBTQ+ rights in Hungary?
    I totally agree with gay rights as they stand in the UK, and I think Orban is a deeply sinister character in many ways

    My point was much more about political statements within sport. If you allow those you agree with, you must allow sentiments you dislike. As we see on here, many can’t cope with that
    Have you not begun to notice that every time you make a point on this sort of topic you position yourself on the wrong side of history?
    No, because I don’t
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579
    Leon said:

    Leon said:



    “I haven’t spoken to anyone particularly about it but I think it is lingering,” he said. “I remember the effects when I had it. The training has been different since then and the levels of fatigue you get are different and it’s a real challenge. So [I am] just continuing to try and train and prepare the best way I can. Who knows what it is today? Maybe it’s hydration but I’ve definitely not had that experience. I had something similar in Silverstone but this is way worse.”

    Hamilton also gave his wholehearted support to Sebastian Vettel who was issued with a reprimand by the FIA for not removing his rainbow-coloured T-shirt with the words “Same Love” on it, in support of the LGBTQ+ community in Hungary who are being targeted by repressive laws.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/aug/01/lewis-hamilton-fears-he-has-long-covid-after-hungarian-gp-exhaustion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Poor guy.

    On the politics side, I think the attempt by sporting associations to suppress competitors' wish to express opinions is getting oppressive. I get that some people may not like some slogans and gestures, and maybe it'll affect their support and they'll hope someone else wins. But taking part in a sport shouldn't be like joining the civil service, never to express an opinion again. Vettel has a view? Fine, get over it. And I'd say the same if he had the opposite view.
    No, you wouldn’t

    If a driver had a t-shirt saying ‘imprison gays’ or ‘expel illegal immigrants’ or ‘vote BNP’ or ‘hang cop killers’ you’d denounce him, despite these opinions being perfectly legal, and, in some cases, quite common
    That's wholly different.

    Vettel's message is wholly positive, yours (quoted) are generally negative. A more appropriate comparison would be, say, a pro-Trump T-Shirt. I suspect exactly the same reprimand would have been issued, and there would be plenty condemning the reprimand.
    QED. You see them as ‘negative’ because you disagree with them. You only approve of political statements you approve. Lefties are so fricking stupid it’s BORING
    How do you know I disagree with all of those examples? You don't.

    My point stands, and I gave you a legitimate example from the other side of the fence.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited August 2021
    Oh god we are back to rerunning the same PB thread from 2017-2019....again....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right

    I believe you have accurately summed up the position and I agree that @Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets and life has far too much to enjoy, than to be bound in self inflicted misery
    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,464
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
    I didn't vote for Brexit but as it turns out I support the democratic vote and have moved on, along with many more, leaving a few like yourself who will never be reconciled to the fact that you lost an argument that should and could have have been won
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209

    Oh god we are back to rerunning the same PB thread from 2017-2019....again....

    I just need a photo of that bus to get things really going.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,576
    Bozo. More Monsieur Hulot than Winston Churchill.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    RobD said:

    I just need a photo of that bus to get things really going.

    ...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361

    Scott_xP said:

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
    Do you have any regrets about cheerleading Cameron's lies ?

    Perhaps he might have bothered with an actual renegotiation with the EU if his fanbois hadn't ra-ra-raed bollox such as 'halved the bill'.
    Trying hard to imagine @Scott_xP as a Cameron fanboy.

    Nope, sorry, it's just not happening.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,576
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right

    I believe you have accurately summed up the position and I agree that @Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets and life has far too much to enjoy, than to be bound in self inflicted misery
    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!
    Not Brussels again!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited August 2021
    Constantly having to travel to Brussels for work....must have really pissed somebody off to get that bum assignment.
  • Oh god we are back to rerunning the same PB thread from 2017-2019....again....

    Yes 52%
    No 48%

    :lol:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    I just need a photo of that bus to get things really going.

    ...
    I bet RNLI have received far more government support than the yacht ever will.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    Oh god we are back to rerunning the same PB thread from 2017-2019....again....

    Yes 52%
    No 48%

    :lol:
    Netting off the drooling fuckwit vote you probably end up with Yes 45, no 55 or thereabouts.
  • RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,210
    Sorry to see MM's self-imposed exile from PB. The comments that triggered it are indeed unworthy. A kind of Gresham's law applies, unfortunately.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    IshmaelZ said:

    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.

    Shot: we did elect the people who passed EU laws

    Chaser: we didn’t elect “Lord Willoughby de Broke”

    (tweet from 2017)
    https://twitter.com/brexitcentral/status/834078787901988866
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,464
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    It is, before it was seamless, now colleagues have reported they've had to wait hours.

    It isn't Covid-19 either.
  • Don't pack away those masks just yet...


    "As expected, we found that a fast rate of vaccination decreases the probability of emergence of a resistant strain. Counterintuitively, when a relaxation of non-pharmaceutical interventions happened at a time when most individuals of the population have already been vaccinated the probability of emergence of a resistant strain was greatly increased. Consequently, we show that a period of transmission reduction close to the end of the vaccination campaign can substantially reduce the probability of resistant strain establishment. Our results suggest that policymakers and individuals should consider maintaining non-pharmaceutical interventions and transmission-reducing behaviours throughout the entire vaccination period."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95025-3

    Hmm. On a skim-read I found that paper rather dubious. The conclusion about masks only applies to closed populations, so far as I can see, since it hinges on new strains dying out. If there is a reservoir for new strains to bide their time -- whether that's a human reservoir in countries where COVID is not well-controlled, or a non-human reservoir -- then this argument seems to fail.

    --AS
  • Scott_xP said:

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
    Do you have any regrets about cheerleading Cameron's lies ?

    Perhaps he might have bothered with an actual renegotiation with the EU if his fanbois hadn't ra-ra-raed bollox such as 'halved the bill'.
    Trying hard to imagine @Scott_xP as a Cameron fanboy.

    Nope, sorry, it's just not happening.
    Believe it or not he was.

    Scott's cheerleading of Cameron led to some vivid exchanges in the era of tim.

    Now all he has is an overwhelming bitterness against both Westminster and Holyrood
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.
    No it wasn’t. It was honoured. I am exceptionally proud of the Britons who, despite so much loathsome bullying from the Remoaner elite, doggedly kept on keeping on, and voted in Boris, who finally Got It Done.

    As I’ve said below, you can dislike Brexit for multiple reasons. But a vote was called, and a vote was cast, and the vote was Leave, and it was the largest vote in British history. It had to be accepted, and it was. Eventually

    The discrediting of democracy would have been a 2nd referendum without honouring the first, or actually Revoking the referendum, as the Lib Dems argued, insanely. Indeed that would have gone beyond ‘discrediting’ democracy, it would have destroyed it
  • Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited August 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    It is, before it was seamless, now colleagues have reported they've had to wait hours.

    It isn't Covid-19 either.
    Given this has come into force during covid, i think it is impossible to disentangle that. Ever changing regulations and restrictions, staff off suffering Covid etc etc etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596
    MaxPB said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Holy shit. That's a massive fucking bullshit decision.
    Same regulation cost Hamilton a pole in 2012 - he started at the back of the grid.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.
    Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be fair
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    It is, before it was seamless, now colleagues have reported they've had to wait hours.

    It isn't Covid-19 either.
    Given this has come into force during covid, i think it is impossible to disentangle that.
    It is, people have pointed out the EU/EEA lines seems to operate much easier because they don't have to show the requirements that we Brits now have to do.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054
    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit.

    Nope

    BoZo wrote a column about how bad Brexit would be, and Cummings only went along with it because he hates the people who were against it.
    You can believe what you like, but you’re factually wrong. Until and unless you accept this, you will be ranting at the clouds for the rest of your life, which is not a happy fate

    There are zillions of reasons to detest Brexit, from the Leaver lies (yes they lied) to the loss of Free Movement

    However, a forlorn belief that prominent Leavers were Machiavellian frauds who abjured their own cause is infantile nonsense. The main Leavers absolutely wanted Brexit, they honestly avowed it, they still think it’s right
    It's clear from all of Boris Johnson's earlier writing that he was a cultural Europhile but an institutional Eurosceptic. The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.
    Off topic (and for the poster who off-topiced my earlier post- this is also off- topic, so fill your boots).

    Johnson wrote the institutional Eurosceptic handbook via his outrageous dispatched from Brussels.

    The two letters to himself tell me he weighed up what was optimal for Johnson. That is an opinion, rightly or wrongly, that will stay with me until the day I fall off the perch.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.
    Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be fair
    Si monumentum requiris, circumspice.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 638
    edited August 2021

    The market at work:

    Aldi has increased its wages for lorry drivers amid a chronic shortage of drivers across the industry.

    The supermarket chain confirmed the rise following similar incentives by grocers to attract HGV drivers.

    The lack of drivers has caused disruption and delays in various supply chains, which has led to product shortages in some industries.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58047483

    Yes but that's only good if there's more lorry drivers coming into the system. If there isn't the problem still remains.
    I assume that some will be deferring retirement or doing extra shifts because of the bonus cash incentives currently on offer.

    The government could fix this quite quickly by streamlining the practical tests (eg pay examiners to do piles of overtime) and dumping the stupid CPC requirements (quite a lot of people around with HGV tickets and medicals but no CPC who currently can't drive commercially).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
    Don't forget Red Bull have four drivers out there.

    Three of them who aren't Verstappen might take it turns to wipe out Hamilton.
    Thing is, it's pretty obvious when it's deliberate.
    Doubt any if them want to risk their entire career - and I don't think even Horner is daft enough to suggest such a thing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited August 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    It is, before it was seamless, now colleagues have reported they've had to wait hours.

    It isn't Covid-19 either.
    Given this has come into force during covid, i think it is impossible to disentangle that.
    It is, people have pointed out the EU/EEA lines seems to operate much easier because they don't have to show the requirements that we Brits now have to do.
    Yes and no. Obviously if you don't have as many requirements, but also you have no idea what overall staffing levels are like due to covid and all the extra extra non brexit, but covid, requirements.

    Its been seen at UK airports for those reasons, grinding to a halt when flying from certain places due to staffing issues and all the extra things required due to covid regs.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054
    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
    My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
  • Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
    Don't forget Red Bull have four drivers out there.

    Three of them who aren't Verstappen might take it turns to wipe out Hamilton.
    Thing is, it's pretty obvious when it's deliberate.
    Doubt any if them want to risk their entire career - and I don't think even Horner is daft enough to suggest such a thing.
    It never harmed Michael Schumacher.
  • Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
  • IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
    My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
    Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044
    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
    People like @Ishmael_Z can. You see only their votes count, not those with whom they disagree. It’s only a democracy if people vote the way with which he agrees
  • Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
    Right.

    Anyhoo just seen my own optic nerves.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
    My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
    Then I think I was confused by your original comment where you excluded the "drooling fuckwit vote" to end up with a Remain victory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,521
    edited August 2021

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    Not in 2007. Hamilton was very unlucky that season.
    That was a looong time ago. He's earned plenty of luck over his career, but even so, some of the recent results have been fortuitous given what might have happened.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
    No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195

    it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue

    It would appear from your postings you are obsessed with me
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    54m
    Monday’s FINANCIAL TIMES: “Signs of ‘housing fever’ surface as global property prices surge” #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    Fuck knows how these people would have coped with World War 2 if that is their idea of a “ducking nightmare”
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    Steve Baker latest Conservative to call for more money for Universal Credit system in @guardian, weeks before £20 a week uplift due to end.

    A growing number of Tories uneasy about the change, including MPs from north of England. Govt not budging though.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/01/johnson-faces-rebellion-over-intolerable-hunger-and-poverty-in-home-counties
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
    Don't forget Red Bull have four drivers out there.

    Three of them who aren't Verstappen might take it turns to wipe out Hamilton.
    Thing is, it's pretty obvious when it's deliberate.
    Doubt any if them want to risk their entire career - and I don't think even Horner is daft enough to suggest such a thing.
    It never harmed Michael Schumacher.
    Pat Symonds and Piquet junior weren't quite so Teflon.
  • Scott_xP said:

    it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue

    It would appear from your postings you are obsessed with me
    Maybe just that I voted remain and have accepted the vote and moved on
  • Scott_xP said:

    Steve Baker latest Conservative to call for more money for Universal Credit system in @guardian, weeks before £20 a week uplift due to end.

    A growing number of Tories uneasy about the change, including MPs from north of England. Govt not budging though.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/01/johnson-faces-rebellion-over-intolerable-hunger-and-poverty-in-home-counties

    My prediction is coming true.

    The government is going to become very unpopular the moment they remove the £20 per week uplift but keep the triple lock.

    Note: It isn't just doleys who get UC.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
    Yes, you’re not being insulting at all. You’re just describing Scott as he now appears on this site. Sullen, angry, embittered and sometimes quite irrational, and almost every comment references Brexit.

    I find it quite melancholy, as I can remember a lighter, wittier Scott. This is why I occasionally try to nudge him towards a calmer perspective. It doesn’t seem to be working.

    I have Remoaner friends who are similarly bitter: they can start shouting, embarrassingly, in pubs, if the chat turns to Brexit. We’ve all learned to avoid the topic
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,521
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    I regret my vote. But I don't scorn it, nor see what purpose there is from deriding people for their vote, rather than merely deriding the vote itself. People can reasonably make a wrong choice, but acting like no sane or rational person could have made that choice is unlikely to cause people to have an epiphany.

    If anything, it will entrench the divide, though you and Boris seem like partners there, working in tandem.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 543

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    I'm actually curious, aren't short-term business trips covered by the 180-day visa-free travel?
    They are but.

    At Belgian border control, you may need to use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing. Your passport may be stamped on entry and exit. You may also need to:

    show a return or onward ticket

    show you have enough money for your stay


    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/belgium/entry-requirements
    That's a "fucking nightmare"?
    It is, before it was seamless, now colleagues have reported they've had to wait hours.

    It isn't Covid-19 either.
    Given this has come into force during covid, i think it is impossible to disentangle that.
    It is, people have pointed out the EU/EEA lines seems to operate much easier because they don't have to show the requirements that we Brits now have to do.
    "may be required to show". May.

    I have travelled to many destinations in europe (from the UK) with a non-EU passport holder for the last ten years. Maybe twenty times. In all that time, he has been asked to show an onward travel ticket exactly once, at Berlin. Never has he been asked to show funds. Every other time, it has simply been a matter of scanning the passport, and stamping it. Perhaps a question about why he is there - simple answer "Tourism".

    That is not to say that the brexit lines aren't longer, of course. I haven't had the pleasure of post-brexit travel yet.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Vettel disqualified.

    Hamilton up to second.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1421926010342236160

    Hamilton does get the luck at key moments - the talk of him being out of the championship a few weeks ago was obvious nonsense, but I think he's got in in the bag now, all is going his way even when he has something go wrong!
    I wonder if Sergio Perez will start having mysterious problems with his brakes whenever Hamilton is near him.
    Don't forget Red Bull have four drivers out there.

    Three of them who aren't Verstappen might take it turns to wipe out Hamilton.
    Thing is, it's pretty obvious when it's deliberate.
    Doubt any if them want to risk their entire career - and I don't think even Horner is daft enough to suggest such a thing.
    It never harmed Michael Schumacher.
    Pat Symonds and Piquet junior weren't quite so Teflon.
    True.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,366
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
    No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
    Lol. Are you honestly claiming that @Scott_xP is NOT obsessed with Brexit?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,054

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    An interesting succession of comments, @IshmaelZ. I thought everyone's vote was equal in a democracy.

    Yes. That is what is wrong with democracy, which is why this country isn't one. It's a constitutional monarchy with a very limited democratic element to it (a choice of oligarchies once every 5 years).

    I've a feeling I have had to make this point before.
    But in the current structure everyone's vote in a referendum is equal. You can't just lop off a whole section of the populace and say remain would have won.
    My point exactly. That is why you should not have referendums.
    Even with regard to, say, the Good Friday Agreement?
    Interesting point. I suppose the answer is you can have the referendum provision in the GFA if it's a precondition of getting the GFA at all (rather than, a cynical electoral manoeuvre to see off UKIP) and because it is geneuinely about identity and sovereignty, not about technical issues relating to membership of a trading bloc. A border referendum is still dangerous though, it's highly vulnerable to nhs bus equivalent claims.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    Leon said:

    We’ve all learned to avoid the topic

    Surely you can reassure them with tales of how brilliant Brexit is?

    All the great success?

    The fantastic new opportunities?

    But no, you sit in embarrassed silence...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP is heading for a lifetime of personal regrets

    I didn't vote for it.

    I have no such regrets.

    Unlike some...
    Neither did I but I have no regrets democracy won
    Democracy was permanently discredited, actually.
    No it wasn’t. It was honoured. I am exceptionally proud of the Britons who, despite so much loathsome bullying from the Remoaner elite, doggedly kept on keeping on, and voted in Boris, who finally Got It Done.

    As I’ve said below, you can dislike Brexit for multiple reasons. But a vote was called, and a vote was cast, and the vote was Leave, and it was the largest vote in British history. It had to be accepted, and it was. Eventually

    The discrediting of democracy would have been a 2nd referendum without honouring the first, or actually Revoking the referendum, as the Lib Dems argued, insanely. Indeed that would have gone beyond ‘discrediting’ democracy, it would have destroyed it
    You've come out fists swinging this evening.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    isam said:

    Stocky said:

    @MarqueeMark just read your post this morning.

    Even I, who doesn't rate Johnson as PM, agree that the anti-Johnson criticism on here is incessant and often pathological - but please don't leave the site.

    Seconded.. Stuart Dixon started off in filthy mode this morning. I pointed out to him that he wouldn't like it if La Sturgeon was so castigated.
    Why is Starmer is c*** acceptable yet Johnson is c*** is unacceptable?

    What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?
    Do people say how disgusted they are at the thought of Sir Keir’s wife sleeping with him? I can’t remember it.
    I have never said that.

    My beef with Johnson is, that in my opinion, he chose what was best for himself, rather than what he thought was best for the country.

    Additionally I wouldn't run my personal life in the way he runs his, and I don't think he is a good role model, but that is entirely his own business.
    You might not have others have.
    The case against Johnson is that he conspired with Gove and Cummings to procure Brexit when none of them wanted or believed in it, and all of them thought it would advance them personally. The key is not whether you think Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, it's what they thought about it. That is about as evil as it gets, short of Fred West or falling foul of the Godwin principle, and compared to that I thing satirical comment on his goings on with that pound shop Clara Petacci woman are pretty small beer.
    I am 100% sure that Boris and Cummings both believed - and believe - in Brexit. I personally have evidence of this. That they also believed it would advance their careers is probably true, but by the by. With Gove I am slightly less sure
    Cummings sees Brexit as a rock in the pond.
    Johnson used Brexit to gain power for himself.
    Gove believes in Brexit.
    That's my sense of this trio.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361

    Scott_xP said:

    The idea that he didn't back Brexit in 2016 out of conviction, albeit with some trepidation, is absurd.

    The idea that BoZo has any conviction other than "how will this advance my career" is absurd.

    I know some folk on here are trying to salve their conscience at having voted for this fraudster and the bankrupt project that is Brexit, but I have no such regrets
    Do you have any regrets about cheerleading Cameron's lies ?

    Perhaps he might have bothered with an actual renegotiation with the EU if his fanbois hadn't ra-ra-raed bollox such as 'halved the bill'.
    Trying hard to imagine @Scott_xP as a Cameron fanboy.

    Nope, sorry, it's just not happening.
    Believe it or not he was.

    Scott's cheerleading of Cameron led to some vivid exchanges in the era of tim.

    Now all he has is an overwhelming bitterness against both Westminster and Holyrood
    I stand corrected.

    An 'overwhelming bitterness against both Westminster and Holyrood' seems like a defensible position, all things considered.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 18,903
    geoffw said:

    Sorry to see MM's self-imposed exile from PB. The comments that triggered it are indeed unworthy. A kind of Gresham's law applies, unfortunately.

    MM?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Or he could move to Paris or Brussels and then he would never need to have left the EU!

    I have to travel to Brussels for work.

    Pre-Brexit it was simple.

    Now it's a fucking nightmare.

    Brexit, making life more expensive and complicated for everyone, just so BoZo could be World King.

    If I had voted for that I would be ashamed to admit it on a public forum...
    Trying to shame 17,400,000 voters demonstrates that you actually lost an argument that was winnable and you have been traumatised by it and accordingly post every day anything or everything you can find that consoles you but is not changing one opinion, certainly I cannot identify any poster on here whose mind has been changed by your incessant obsessive behaviour, which seems to just add to your trauma
    Obsessive behaviour?

    I thought you called out people who used mental health conditions as insults.
    It is not an insult as it is clear from his postings that he is obsessed with the issue
    No it isn't, and if it were, it wouldn't be clear to a non-psychiatrist like (presumably) you. You can't have it both ways.
    Why not?

    Having it both ways is the essence of Johnsonism, and of the political pickle we are in.

    If The People vote to have it both ways, how dare anyone stop them?

    (This isn't just about 2016-19... it's also about, for example, the way that the people who backed Thatcher's cutting of the pension-earnings link back in the 1980s are now appalled at the smallness of the pensions they are retiring onto. For example.)
This discussion has been closed.