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The front pages not good for ministers on the eve of what was designated Freedom day – politicalbett

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    edited July 2021
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Corbyn is already suspended. What difference has it made? There is a problem with the trots (who made the antisemitic attacks on Luciana Berger) but they are not the same as the Corbynistas. The problem Starmer has is that he has provided no reason for voting Labour and no reason for voting against a government led by a corrupt and incompetent liar. Corbyn is an irrelevance. The trouble is, for most voters, so is Keir Starmer.
    Again, here’s the problem. Identified in your post are competing tribes of Trots, Corbynistas and (impliedly) Starmerites. That’s before we get to the LDs, the Greens, SNP and PC. With fragmentation like that…
    While that fragmentation means Starmer has near zero chance of winning a Labour majority, coupled with the fact he does not have the appeal in the Northern Red Wall Andy Burnham does, it does not mean he cannot become PM.

    If the Tories lose their majority at the next general election it is perfectly possible Starmer could become PM propped up by the LDs (if they make significant gains in southern Tory Remain seats like Chesham), SNP, Greens and PC, SDLP and Alliance with the DUP abstaining unlike 2017 because of the Irish Sea border even if the Tories have still won most seats
    That would involve a lot of disparate tribes playing nicely with one another. Ain’t happening.
    If they all voted against the Tories would also make a Tory government, even a minority one, impossible too however
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 52,751
    edited July 2021
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Colour me shocked. PM and chancellor have been pinged (assume by contact with the health secretary). Guess what, they will be partaking of the trial that means they don’t have to isolate...
    I will be deleting the ap today. This is the last straw. Feckers

    I deleted it days ago as did my family and our WhatsApp group

    To be honest Boris and HMG deserve all the criticism they are receiving

    Their PR is worse than even Ratner
    If - as I expect - this turns into a PR disaster it also won’t look good for your favourite Sunak.

    Pile on Hunt to be next leader.
    You could be right, but right now any one of Rishi, Hunt, Raab, or Truss would be a huge improvement

    I would just say the one thing that may save then ironically is the good sense of the vast majority of the public who will not cast off all care tomorrow, but practice their own common sense

    Indeed my son and his partner, their parents and our family are going into self imposed lockdown from tomorrow, to do our best to keep covid away from having a serious consequence for their wedding on the 31st July

    I expect a slump in their poll ratings for Boris and HMG which would be entirely self inflicted
    Dear God, what a line up of absoute useless donkeys. If that is the best the Tories have even useless Starmer can have hope.
    Good morning Malc

    Lovely day here and I assume the same in Ayrshire

    To be honest it is far to nice a day to get 'ravelled up' over politics so a bit of gardening then to watch the open for me today
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    It is f*cking inevitable now. As we all no longer need to self-isolate when pinged. F*ck that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 260
    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Colour me shocked. PM and chancellor have been pinged (assume by contact with the health secretary). Guess what, they will be partaking of the trial that means they don’t have to isolate...
    I will be deleting the ap today. This is the last straw. Feckers

    I deleted it days ago as did my family and our WhatsApp group

    To be honest Boris and HMG deserve all the criticism they are receiving

    Their PR is worse than even Ratner
    If - as I expect - this turns into a PR disaster it also won’t look good for your favourite Sunak.

    Pile on Hunt to be next leader.
    You could be right, but right now any one of Rishi, Hunt, Raab, or Truss would be a huge improvement

    I would just say the one thing that may save then ironically is the good sense of the vast majority of the public who will not cast off all care tomorrow, but practice their own common sense

    Indeed my son and his partner, their parents and our family are going into self imposed lockdown from tomorrow, to do our best to keep covid away from having a serious consequence for their wedding on the 31st July

    I expect a slump in their poll ratings for Boris and HMG which would be entirely self inflicted
    Dear God, what a line up of absoute useless donkeys. If that is the best the Tories have even useless Starmer can have hope.
    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,144
    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    Well, even on the raw figures without allowing for any time lag at all, the hospitalisation rate is 1.4%. Allowing for a time lag probably about twice that. So even the people testing positive right now will produce well over 1000 hospitalisations a day.

    Just the same as his recent prediction of "50 or so" deaths a day, which was surpassed about a week after he made it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    Senior ministers think they are being clever. They are not.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 8,834

    Anyway. Con +2%

    Yes. The worse the Tories are the more fearful people become of making things worse by turfing them out.

    A massive loss of self confidence and respect masked by a fragile nationalism.

    It's why no-one is held to account for massive failure or corruption. We've stopped believing it can ever be better.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    edited July 2021
    I honestly think this will now spiral completely out of this government's control now.

    It is clear there is already mounting anger over the pingdemic.

    Today's news will just blow that completely out of the water.

    No one is going to listen to a bloody word they say now.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018

    DavidL said:


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    I cannot think of a more politically insane decision in my lifetime than the one Boris has just taken on self-isolation.

    The only thing that is insane about it is that it doesn't apply to everyone else too.
    If the govt impose insane rules on millions over the last month, they surely can't simply ignore the rules for themselves?

    This is not like it only impacted dozens so ministers were not aware.
    It immediately gives all the double vaccinated an excuse not to self-isolate if they do not want to / think it unnecessary.

    It might be a more effective way of doing so that an actual formal statement to that effect.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,519
    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    I would expect higher on both, especially daily cases but still manageable numbers.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660

    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    It is f*cking inevitable now. As we all no longer need to self-isolate when pinged. F*ck that.
    You still do. It is the special ones who don't.

    In Johnson's brand of social equality, it's like the pigs in Animal Farm, everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,502
    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,379

    Every parent in England is going to go f*cking mad when they hear the news.

    Millions will now delete the app.

    And given that the success of Step 4 depends a fair bit on lots of people acting as if we're still at Step 3 for a while, that's a problem.

    For right-of-centre politics to work, it needs to be anchored in something that forces you to think about others.

    That can be patrician noblesse oblige, a Grantham or Brixton upbringing, even European Christian Democracy. Strip those away and you can be left with pure selfishness. As we're seeing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Morning all. However bad it gets. However hamfisted and stupid he is. The PM Clown Apologists will still come on and insist He is resplendent in his new clothes and that we definitely can't all see his cock.

    Haters got to hate.

    (Not just you but it makes for a dull thread)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,357
    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    It's complete bollocks though. South Africa may have descended into a violent, corrupt basket-case but not because of CRT which aside from anything else is an American concept.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424

    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    It is f*cking inevitable now. As we all no longer need to self-isolate when pinged. F*ck that.
    You still do. It is the special ones who don't.

    In Johnson's brand of social equality, it's like the pigs in Animal Farm, everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.
    If this is levelling up, I don't want to me levelled.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,502

    Every parent in England is going to go f*cking mad when they hear the news.

    Millions will now delete the app.

    And given that the success of Step 4 depends a fair bit on lots of people acting as if we're still at Step 3 for a while, that's a problem.

    For right-of-centre politics to work, it needs to be anchored in something that forces you to think about others.

    That can be patrician noblesse oblige, a Grantham or Brixton upbringing, even European Christian Democracy. Strip those away and you can be left with pure selfishness. As we're seeing.
    Whereas for left-wing policies to work there needs to be a willingness to work together, to co-operate for the common good.
    The ability to do that was, allegedly, one of the means by which we superseded the Neanderthals, Denisovians etc., who were apparently less able to do so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    edited July 2021
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    I see Bolton now has 2 days of cases above their May 7-day average peak.

    The mathematically impossible has happened!

    Eh?

    Who claimed it was mathematically impossible for cases to be above May peaks?

    Delta is highly transmissable. Schools are (or were) operating normally. And children are unvaccinated.

    The question is what happens next, now that schools break up, the weather has improved and the Euros are behind us.
    That fact that Bolton peaked in May was used as extremely confident evidence that Delta had burned out fast.

    It had ripped through the remaining unvaccinated and that was it done. With increasing vaccination numbers there was no new people to infect and it was over. Delta had flared briefly and was gone with only faint echoes in the surrounding counties.

    Cases 100% deffo peaked at less than 10k.
    Are you really trying to compare individual days now with a weekly average in a different period ?

    Really ???
    How is Kirklees working out for you?

    Edit: thr implication is that the Bol on current 7 day average is going to rise pas the May "peak".
    Kirklees has significantly fewer cases now than it did last autumn:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=ltla&areaName=Kirklees

    Different places have different levels of cases and over different periods of time but its quite clear that nowhere goes exponential to infinity.
    Absolutely tremendous goalpost shifting.

    Just, Phenomenal.
    Look at the data and see the reality.

    You seem to be a bit bitter that things aren't bad enough.

    Strange. Very strange.
    You said "its bollox" that we'd get to 40,000 cases a day by July because of "the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees".

    I looked at the data (as you requested above) and saw the reality that new cases in Kirklees has gone vastly higher than when you said that and that Bolton and Bedfordshire's fall has stalled and in fact new cases have been increasing for the last month.

    And we are over 40,000 cases a day.

    Yet somehow you think your predictions were correct and you didn't pronounce too hastily given the data available?

    It's a view I suppose.
    I said it was bollox that cases would extrapolate to infinity and I was extremely sceptical that cases would exceed the peak in January as that didn't happen in Bolton or Blackburn.

    And infections are certainly not going to extrapolate to infinity and, so far, haven't reached the level of January.

    Though the pattern I pointed out of local cases not exceeding their previous peaks has been broken in parts of the North-East and Yorkshire. Why that has happened in July when it didn't happen in the North-West in June I don't know but I would speculate that the football led to more super-spreader events than the slow seepage in Lancashire and they will have a higher but narrower peak. On a more positive side London has been affected much less by Delta than it was in the winter wave, again for reasons we cannot be sure about.

    I do find it fascinating that you are so obsessed at trying, and failing, to prove that things are so much worse than some people thought they would be.

    Yet you spend no time being concerned about any predictions of enormous numbers of infections and collapsing health services.

    Perhaps you actually want higher cases and more deaths because winning a pointless argument on the internet is more important to you than the damage to people's lives which would result from it.
    You were specifically replying to a news story that had been posted saying cases would be 40k a day in July.

    Not some nonsense about extrapolating to infinity.

    I'm talking about basic factual matters.

    I am not trying to win some "Doomier than thou" competition. If you have payed any attention to my posts you would see that I am intensely relaxed about the situation and am socialising happily at the moment.

    But I am just positively delighted that once again we have total denial of reality and not a shred of contrition or self reflection on confident predictions being busted.

    The carry on as normal crew on here have been relentless

    No worse than flu in March 2020
    Already Over in April
    Herd Immunity Achieved in May
    False Positivises in August
    Casedemic in September
    No Second Wave in October
    Already peaked by mid October
    Over by Christmas in November
    and now
    Cases cannot rise any further in June

    And it's the same people again and again (and again).

    What we as a nation do next is a super interesting question that I'd lvoe to discuss but as I said to rcs yesterday it's hard to take seriously people who have shown zero ability to learn from their past mistakes.
    Even had we delayed Freedom Day until September when almost everyone would have been offered both jabs we would still have had lots of new cases in the weeks after as the vaccine does not eliminate your chance of catching Covid.

    The vaccine only near eliminates your chance of getting severely bad symptoms from Covid, being hospitalised and dying from it.

    We have to be realistic and accept we will always have Covid cases even with the vaccine
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 388

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660
    Charles said:

    Morning all. However bad it gets. However hamfisted and stupid he is. The PM Clown Apologists will still come on and insist He is resplendent in his new clothes and that we definitely can't all see his cock.

    Haters got to hate.

    (Not just you but it makes for a dull thread)
    No, Johnson appears to be making some very dangerous schoolboy errors....again.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533
    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I think 100,000 cases a day is almost inevitable” says Prof Neil Fergusson

    Predicts 1,000 hospitalisations a day coming too


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

    Well, even on the raw figures without allowing for any time lag at all, the hospitalisation rate is 1.4%. Allowing for a time lag probably about twice that. So even the people testing positive right now will produce well over 1000 hospitalisations a day.

    Just the same as his recent prediction of "50 or so" deaths a day, which was surpassed about a week after he made it.
    Huh?


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424

    140,000 expected at the superspreader event at Silverstone. HMG has lost the plot.

    And anyone who gets pinged afterwards wont need to self-isolate any more. Yipee!!!!
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 388

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
    For completeness, there are also plenty of people on this other forum who haven't heard of the pilot and are claiming it is one rule for us, another for them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    3m
    I was told there will be a meeting tomorrow to consider a "reasonable excuse" exemption for "some" critical workers prior to August 16. But that implies the vast majority of critical workers aren't currently covered by the scheme Boris and Rishi are using. So why aren't they?



    It just gets better. To cover their arses over this non isolating scandal they now are going to let a few nurses in on the scheme as well.

    F*cking twats.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    adrian mcmenamin
    @adrianmcmenamin
    My gut feeling is that this is going to make the Barnard Castle story look like a walk in the park
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,591

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,502
    edited July 2021

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
    Reference? Good, if that is the case, but I'm sure you'll forgive me for thinking that it's still a remarkable coincidence that so many cabinet ministers are included.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    I honestly think this will now spiral completely out of this government's control now.

    It is clear there is already mounting anger over the pingdemic.

    Today's news will just blow that completely out of the water.

    No one is going to listen to a bloody word they say now.

    Awkward observation 10,057 ...

    https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most

    Yes, it appears that it suppresses your own immune system for a short time and that could have explained some of the spike in deaths last winter. But it doesn't seem to explain this.

    The media censorship is unprecedented and chilling. Facebook yesterday blocked a debate on the COVID jabs between Prof David Livermore and Prof Peter McCullough at this event ...

    https://www.questioneverything.io/live/

    They transmitted direct as well so only people on Facebook noticed Big Brother, er sorry Mark Zuckerberg, pull the plug.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    From Guido - "Boris and Rishi pinged by test and trace, however are both participating in daily testing trial so will continue working in Downing Street"

    One rule for them, another for everyone else.

    and

    Colour me shocked. PM and chancellor have been pinged (assume by contact with the health secretary). Guess what, they will be partaking of the trial that means they don’t have to isolate...
    I will be deleting the ap today. This is the last straw. Feckers

    You have to ask just how dumb the clown and his advisers are. The pingdemic is causing absolute havoc. And here we have the PM not having to suffer like the plebs, doing a special "trial" of a "we are your betters know your place" process.
    I suspect the security services are uncomfortable about the WFH (obviously Johnson is different)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533

    Every parent in England is going to go f*cking mad when they hear the news.

    Millions will now delete the app.

    And given that the success of Step 4 depends a fair bit on lots of people acting as if we're still at Step 3 for a while, that's a problem.

    For right-of-centre politics to work, it needs to be anchored in something that forces you to think about others.

    That can be patrician noblesse oblige, a Grantham or Brixton upbringing, even European Christian Democracy. Strip those away and you can be left with pure selfishness. As we're seeing.
    Whereas for left-wing policies to work there needs to be a willingness to work together, to co-operate for the common good.
    The ability to do that was, allegedly, one of the means by which we superseded the Neanderthals, Denisovians etc., who were apparently less able to do so.
    Ironically the Tory Party appears to work better together internally than any of its opponents.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591
    Even the Torygraph's not impressed:

    A Marie Antoinette moment that shows it is one rule for us and another for this government.

    Coronavirus latest news: Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak pinged - but will not self-isolate https://telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-cases-lockdown-deaths-nhs-app/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw via @Telegraph


    https://twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1416673351762956297?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    I see Bolton now has 2 days of cases above their May 7-day average peak.

    The mathematically impossible has happened!

    Eh?

    Who claimed it was mathematically impossible for cases to be above May peaks?

    Delta is highly transmissable. Schools are (or were) operating normally. And children are unvaccinated.

    The question is what happens next, now that schools break up, the weather has improved and the Euros are behind us.
    That fact that Bolton peaked in May was used as extremely confident evidence that Delta had burned out fast.

    It had ripped through the remaining unvaccinated and that was it done. With increasing vaccination numbers there was no new people to infect and it was over. Delta had flared briefly and was gone with only faint echoes in the surrounding counties.

    Cases 100% deffo peaked at less than 10k.
    Are you really trying to compare individual days now with a weekly average in a different period ?

    Really ???
    How is Kirklees working out for you?

    Edit: thr implication is that the Bol on current 7 day average is going to rise pas the May "peak".
    Kirklees has significantly fewer cases now than it did last autumn:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=ltla&areaName=Kirklees

    Different places have different levels of cases and over different periods of time but its quite clear that nowhere goes exponential to infinity.
    Absolutely tremendous goalpost shifting.

    Just, Phenomenal.
    Look at the data and see the reality.

    You seem to be a bit bitter that things aren't bad enough.

    Strange. Very strange.
    You said "its bollox" that we'd get to 40,000 cases a day by July because of "the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees".

    I looked at the data (as you requested above) and saw the reality that new cases in Kirklees has gone vastly higher than when you said that and that Bolton and Bedfordshire's fall has stalled and in fact new cases have been increasing for the last month.

    And we are over 40,000 cases a day.

    Yet somehow you think your predictions were correct and you didn't pronounce too hastily given the data available?

    It's a view I suppose.
    I said it was bollox that cases would extrapolate to infinity and I was extremely sceptical that cases would exceed the peak in January as that didn't happen in Bolton or Blackburn.

    And infections are certainly not going to extrapolate to infinity and, so far, haven't reached the level of January.

    Though the pattern I pointed out of local cases not exceeding their previous peaks has been broken in parts of the North-East and Yorkshire. Why that has happened in July when it didn't happen in the North-West in June I don't know but I would speculate that the football led to more super-spreader events than the slow seepage in Lancashire and they will have a higher but narrower peak. On a more positive side London has been affected much less by Delta than it was in the winter wave, again for reasons we cannot be sure about.

    I do find it fascinating that you are so obsessed at trying, and failing, to prove that things are so much worse than some people thought they would be.

    Yet you spend no time being concerned about any predictions of enormous numbers of infections and collapsing health services.

    Perhaps you actually want higher cases and more deaths because winning a pointless argument on the internet is more important to you than the damage to people's lives which would result from it.
    You were specifically replying to a news story that had been posted saying cases would be 40k a day in July.

    Not some nonsense about extrapolating to infinity.

    I'm talking about basic factual matters.

    I am not trying to win some "Doomier than thou" competition. If you have payed any attention to my posts you would see that I am intensely relaxed about the situation and am socialising happily at the moment.

    But I am just positively delighted that once again we have total denial of reality and not a shred of contrition or self reflection on confident predictions being busted.

    The carry on as normal crew on here have been relentless

    No worse than flu in March 2020
    Already Over in April
    Herd Immunity Achieved in May
    False Positivises in August
    Casedemic in September
    No Second Wave in October
    Already peaked by mid October
    Over by Christmas in November
    and now
    Cases cannot rise any further in June

    And it's the same people again and again (and again).

    What we as a nation do next is a super interesting question that I'd lvoe to discuss but as I said to rcs yesterday it's hard to take seriously people who have shown zero ability to learn from their past mistakes.
    It’s not a British failing, it’s a human failing. No one wants to accept the terrible reality of a lethal pandemic, so almost everyone errs towards optimism

    You saw the same process in World War 1. ‘Over by Christmas’. ‘The last big push in 1915’. ‘The somme will begin the drive to Berlin’

    Imagine if you’d sat people down in August 1914 and said, ‘this war will last 4 years, it will kill tens of millions in futile trench warfare, it will topple empires and it will facilitate devastating plagues, and it will eventually lead to another, even worse world war with industrialized extermination of entire races’

    You wouldn’t have been invited back to the Andrew Marr show
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,591
    Charles said:

    Morning all. However bad it gets. However hamfisted and stupid he is. The PM Clown Apologists will still come on and insist He is resplendent in his new clothes and that we definitely can't all see his cock.

    Haters got to hate.

    (Not just you but it makes for a dull thread)
    And here you are!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
    Reference? Good, if that is the case, but I'm sure you'll forgive me sort thinking that it's still a remarkable coincidence that so many cabinet ministers are included.
    Do we seriously think any of the public is going to listen to any weaselly stories about how many are on this secret trial?

    No they are f*cking not. They will hear that Johnson has not isolated and that is the end of it.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660
    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    This is tacit advice from Johnson and Sunak to turn off the app.

    I take Government Covid advice seriously, so............ now deleted.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    There are 2 "pilot" schemes...

    Housing Sec Robert Jenrick says it's very important for people to self-isolate if they are contacted by Test and Trace.

    But the PM & Chancellor won't have to because they'll be taking part in a daily testing pilot #Phillips

    The PM & Chancellor are able to take part in this daily testing pilot because Downing Street is one of a variety of selected organisations included in the scheme & has an asymptomatic testing site. Eligibility for the pilot is assessed on a case by case basis.

    This trial is running in conjunction with the public scheme (👇) & is for workplaces with a testing site. The reference to people selected at "random" applies to the public study. Eligibility for the workplace study is assessed on a case by case basis.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1416665426419986437
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,619

    140,000 expected at the superspreader event at Silverstone. HMG has lost the plot.

    It’s largely outside and with a largely vaccinated public. As a nation we are pursuing a strategy where cases alone don’t matter, it’s just the impact on healthcare and death. It’s a calculated risk, with support from some, but not all, scientists. As silverstone themselves say, it only services by running events like this.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    "challenging" is the BBC word for "fucking, land on Pluto, impossible"
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    Mail website headline is now "Boris dodges pingdemic"

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    I see Bolton now has 2 days of cases above their May 7-day average peak.

    The mathematically impossible has happened!

    Eh?

    Who claimed it was mathematically impossible for cases to be above May peaks?

    Delta is highly transmissable. Schools are (or were) operating normally. And children are unvaccinated.

    The question is what happens next, now that schools break up, the weather has improved and the Euros are behind us.
    That fact that Bolton peaked in May was used as extremely confident evidence that Delta had burned out fast.

    It had ripped through the remaining unvaccinated and that was it done. With increasing vaccination numbers there was no new people to infect and it was over. Delta had flared briefly and was gone with only faint echoes in the surrounding counties.

    Cases 100% deffo peaked at less than 10k.
    Are you really trying to compare individual days now with a weekly average in a different period ?

    Really ???
    How is Kirklees working out for you?

    Edit: thr implication is that the Bol on current 7 day average is going to rise pas the May "peak".
    Kirklees has significantly fewer cases now than it did last autumn:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=ltla&areaName=Kirklees

    Different places have different levels of cases and over different periods of time but its quite clear that nowhere goes exponential to infinity.
    Absolutely tremendous goalpost shifting.

    Just, Phenomenal.
    Look at the data and see the reality.

    You seem to be a bit bitter that things aren't bad enough.

    Strange. Very strange.
    You said "its bollox" that we'd get to 40,000 cases a day by July because of "the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees".

    I looked at the data (as you requested above) and saw the reality that new cases in Kirklees has gone vastly higher than when you said that and that Bolton and Bedfordshire's fall has stalled and in fact new cases have been increasing for the last month.

    And we are over 40,000 cases a day.

    Yet somehow you think your predictions were correct and you didn't pronounce too hastily given the data available?

    It's a view I suppose.
    I said it was bollox that cases would extrapolate to infinity and I was extremely sceptical that cases would exceed the peak in January as that didn't happen in Bolton or Blackburn.

    And infections are certainly not going to extrapolate to infinity and, so far, haven't reached the level of January.

    Though the pattern I pointed out of local cases not exceeding their previous peaks has been broken in parts of the North-East and Yorkshire. Why that has happened in July when it didn't happen in the North-West in June I don't know but I would speculate that the football led to more super-spreader events than the slow seepage in Lancashire and they will have a higher but narrower peak. On a more positive side London has been affected much less by Delta than it was in the winter wave, again for reasons we cannot be sure about.

    I do find it fascinating that you are so obsessed at trying, and failing, to prove that things are so much worse than some people thought they would be.

    Yet you spend no time being concerned about any predictions of enormous numbers of infections and collapsing health services.

    Perhaps you actually want higher cases and more deaths because winning a pointless argument on the internet is more important to you than the damage to people's lives which would result from it.
    You were specifically replying to a news story that had been posted saying cases would be 40k a day in July.

    Not some nonsense about extrapolating to infinity.

    I'm talking about basic factual matters.

    I am not trying to win some "Doomier than thou" competition. If you have payed any attention to my posts you would see that I am intensely relaxed about the situation and am socialising happily at the moment.

    But I am just positively delighted that once again we have total denial of reality and not a shred of contrition or self reflection on confident predictions being busted.

    The carry on as normal crew on here have been relentless

    No worse than flu in March 2020
    Already Over in April
    Herd Immunity Achieved in May
    False Positivises in August
    Casedemic in September
    No Second Wave in October
    Already peaked by mid October
    Over by Christmas in November
    and now
    Cases cannot rise any further in June

    And it's the same people again and again (and again).

    What we as a nation do next is a super interesting question that I'd lvoe to discuss but as I said to rcs yesterday it's hard to take seriously people who have shown zero ability to learn from their past mistakes.
    It’s not a British failing, it’s a human failing. No one wants to accept the terrible reality of a lethal pandemic, so almost everyone errs towards optimism

    You saw the same process in World War 1. ‘Over by Christmas’. ‘The last big push in 1915’. ‘The somme will begin the drive to Berlin’

    Imagine if you’d sat people down in August 1914 and said, ‘this war will last 4 years, it will kill tens of millions in futile trench warfare, it will topple empires and it will facilitate devastating plagues, and it will eventually lead to another, even worse world war with industrialized extermination of entire races’

    You wouldn’t have been invited back to the Andrew Marr show
    So not all bad then?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,363
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738

    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    This is tacit advice from Johnson and Sunak to turn off the app.

    I take Government Covid advice seriously, so............ now deleted.
    Just end self isolation for the double vaccinated next week too
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    As someone somewhat sympathetic to the Labour cause, I only have to picture in my mind's eye the angry, ruddy face of the late Eric Heffer to remind me what irrational, incompetent, useless, nasty-party Labour looks like.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,363
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    This is tacit advice from Johnson and Sunak to turn off the app.

    I take Government Covid advice seriously, so............ now deleted.
    Just end self isolation for the double vaccinated next week too
    Just lob a can of petrol at the fire...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,850
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,056

    140,000 expected at the superspreader event at Silverstone. HMG has lost the plot.

    It’s largely outside and with a largely vaccinated public. As a nation we are pursuing a strategy where cases alone don’t matter, it’s just the impact on healthcare and death. It’s a calculated risk, with support from some, but not all, scientists. As silverstone themselves say, it only services by running events like this.
    It’s mostly outside, on a massive site, and as part of the research programme they are requesting negative tests or vaccination from all attendees.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    As someone somewhat sympathetic to the Labour cause, I only have to picture in my mind's eye the angry, ruddy face of the late Eric Heffer to remind me what irrational, incompetent, useless, nasty-party Labour looks like.
    Even Corbyn never managed to get as close to putting Labour in third place as Foot and Heffer did in 1983, Jenkins' SDP on 25% was just 2% behind Foot's Labour on 27%
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,502
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Remind me how easy it is to get to Reunion from anywhere else. It's like saying we couldn't have isolated St Kilda!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    And that fairly appalling piece by Revolver is trying to support that situation by insisting that white economic dominance is the price of a successful economy and policies that seek to change that are doomed to failure, all with a deeply undemocratic American slant. Ugh.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,363
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Why not? We had a different isolation policy from the Balearics to mainland Spain until a few days ago. Ditto Madeira and mainland Portugal.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    Don’t complicate things.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    Leon said:

    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood

    Console yourself with the memory of voting for it...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    This is tacit advice from Johnson and Sunak to turn off the app.

    I take Government Covid advice seriously, so............ now deleted.
    Just end self isolation for the double vaccinated next week too
    Just lob a can of petrol at the fire...
    If you are double vaccinated you have a significantly lower risk of spreading Covid and also a near zero risk of being hospitalised or dying from it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    If you flew directly yes, not if you went through mainland Spain

    No one flies direct from Reunion to London
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,591
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    From what I see / hear / read the infighting never stopped. Its a fantasy to assume that the do nothing option is no infighting.

    The preferred option of course was that both sides remember how to live with each other again. I just think its gone way beyond that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    edited July 2021

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    For a weekend slightly more open which was soon scrapped and they were all treated the same again but there will be plenty of movement between Reunion and mainland France and you have to go via France to get to Reunion and back
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,112

    Every parent in England is going to go f*cking mad when they hear the news.

    Millions will now delete the app.

    Good, hopefully everyone deletes it. Time to get back to normal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How bad is it? Not even LauraK can spin it with a straight face...

    There is a pilot scheme available that gives some people a chance to do this, but the message this might send to the public when thousands upon thousands of people are being asked to self isolate is erm, challenging https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57877373

    This is tacit advice from Johnson and Sunak to turn off the app.

    I take Government Covid advice seriously, so............ now deleted.
    Just end self isolation for the double vaccinated next week too
    Just lob a can of petrol at the fire...
    If you are double vaccinated you have a significantly lower risk of spreading Covid and also a near zero risk of being hospitalised or dying from it
    But other people aren't.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
    There are times @Leon when you come across as a bit of a drama queen. You know that, right?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    If you flew directly yes, not if you went through mainland Spain

    No one flies direct from Reunion to London
    Wonder how many Brits go holidaying on Reunion Island? All the rules say you aren’t allowed to evade quarantine by travelling via a “safe” airport. It wouldn’t be difficult to introduce a “Reunion” exception for France.

    The question anyway is whether anyone really thinks that the French exception was based on the idea that the Beta spike was 6000 miles away, as opposed to the Govt being clueless?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Why not? We had a different isolation policy from the Balearics to mainland Spain until a few days ago. Ditto Madeira and mainland Portugal.
    Of course, some people find the concept of devolution inherently invalid.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497
    Scott_xP said:

    Part of a pilot scheme for doing what the fuck I like. Going well so far.
    https://twitter.com/almurray/status/1416667935830159361

    “It will cover the few days before Parliament recess, so they don't have to risk going out when restrictions are lifted. Luckily we know when the next lockdown will be as their holiday ends 6th Sept.”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Why not? We had a different isolation policy from the Balearics to mainland Spain until a few days ago. Ditto Madeira and mainland Portugal.
    Of course, some people find the concept of devolution inherently invalid.
    Portugal does not even have devolution
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.

    #PMQs
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1410260085008265216/video/1
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,502

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    From what I see / hear / read the infighting never stopped. Its a fantasy to assume that the do nothing option is no infighting.

    The preferred option of course was that both sides remember how to live with each other again. I just think its gone way beyond that.
    The infighting in the Tory Party in 2019 was stopped by a fairly brutal round of expulsions from the Parliamentary Party.
    I don't think Johnson dares to expel May.

    But just possibly that's a 'yet'. Or maybe she will go to NATO or something else 'consoling'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    If you flew directly yes, not if you went through mainland Spain

    No one flies direct from Reunion to London
    Wonder how many Brits go holidaying on Reunion Island?

    Plenty of wealthy ones, often combined with the Seychelles or Mauritius
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
    There are times @Leon when you come across as a bit of a drama queen. You know that, right?
    Er, yeah

    However this one of the few occasions when drama-queening is surely justified. We are in the middle of a global plague, which seems to be peaking as power shifts from the democratic west to the autocratic east, as our societies are riven with racial conflict, and as potentially calamitous climate change really says Hello

    And the number of decent fish restaurants in London has halved. HALVED!!!
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 240
    The 40,000 person pilot scheme linked to above is not available to those in contact with someone infected by a variant of concern (read the small print). So, on the assumption that the Health Secretary has been infected by Delta that particular scheme is not available to the PM. It must be the workplace scheme for which, serendipitously, Downing Street was selected.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    My guess is that the PM and Chancellor will be self-isolating by the end of the day.
    https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1416687721016344579
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    140,000 expected at the superspreader event at Silverstone. HMG has lost the plot.

    It’s largely outside and with a largely vaccinated public. As a nation we are pursuing a strategy where cases alone don’t matter, it’s just the impact on healthcare and death. It’s a calculated risk, with support from some, but not all, scientists. As silverstone themselves say, it only services by running events like this.
    “It’s a calculated risk”

    Problem is The Clown can’t do sums.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,738
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
    There are times @Leon when you come across as a bit of a drama queen. You know that, right?
    Er, yeah

    However this one of the few occasions when drama-queening is surely justified. We are in the middle of a global plague, which seems to be peaking as power shifts from the democratic west to the autocratic east, as our societies are riven with racial conflict, and as potentially calamitous climate change really says Hello

    And the number of decent fish restaurants in London has halved. HALVED!!!
    Compared to World War 1, World War 2, the Thirty Years War, Spanish Flu or Black Death this is nothing in terms of devastation caused
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,341
    Scott_xP said:

    There are 2 "pilot" schemes...

    Housing Sec Robert Jenrick says it's very important for people to self-isolate if they are contacted by Test and Trace.

    But the PM & Chancellor won't have to because they'll be taking part in a daily testing pilot #Phillips

    The PM & Chancellor are able to take part in this daily testing pilot because Downing Street is one of a variety of selected organisations included in the scheme & has an asymptomatic testing site. Eligibility for the pilot is assessed on a case by case basis.

    This trial is running in conjunction with the public scheme (👇) & is for workplaces with a testing site. The reference to people selected at "random" applies to the public study. Eligibility for the workplace study is assessed on a case by case basis.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1416665426419986437

    Who does this assessment, I wonder? Lol, honestly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,363
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Why not? We had a different isolation policy from the Balearics to mainland Spain until a few days ago. Ditto Madeira and mainland Portugal.
    Of course, some people find the concept of devolution inherently invalid.
    Portugal does not even have devolution
    Madeira does have its own governor.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    Another day when the thoughts of Tissue Price would be welcome.

    It seems he wanted to be an MP for all the right reasons, but can he really be happy with BoZo screwing it up so badly, so consistently, so relentlessly?



    David Cameron knew some people found it hard to vote Conservative, and wanted to make it easier for them. Boris Johnson and Priti Patel are making it harder again. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/week-conservatives-took-england-football-21067271?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    As someone somewhat sympathetic to the Labour cause, I only have to picture in my mind's eye the angry, ruddy face of the late Eric Heffer to remind me what irrational, incompetent, useless, nasty-party Labour looks like.
    Even Corbyn never managed to get as close to putting Labour in third place as Foot and Heffer did in 1983, Jenkins' SDP on 25% was just 2% behind Foot's Labour on 27%
    Michael Foot was a decent, doddery old intellectual fool. Heffer's was the face of British-Soviet evil. Corbyn was just a less physically vomit-inducing version of Heffer.

    Perhaps the greatest shame was that the SDP ultimately failed and we retain elements within the Labour Party who are steeped in Union-Baron corruption and of red flags flying over Downing Street. See, it isn't just Johnson who loves a flag!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497
    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,258
    "Man gets ‘racial hatred’ police record - for whistling the Bob The Builder theme tune at his neighbour

    Officers in Bedfordshire recorded the incident as a non-crime hate incident
    Few other details about the ‘crime’ are known but it will remain on file for years
    Campaigners call for the ‘Orwellian’ police guidelines for hate to be scrapped"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9798849/Man-gets-racial-hatred-police-record-whistling-Bob-Builder-theme-tune.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 29,656

    Boris Johnson cancelled plans for a Churchillian launch of Freedom Day after No 10 became alarmed by the surge in the number of infections, The Mail on Sunday has learned.

    Officials had discussed marking the lifting of Covid restrictions with a rousing speech by the Prime Minister at an historic venue associated with the wartime leader – until scientific advisers took fright at the recent climb in cases.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9798757/Boris-Johnson-cancels-plans-Churchillian-Freedom-Day-launch.html

    Thank god for small mercies.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501

    Who does this assessment, I wonder? Lol, honestly.

    Apparently that question has been asked, but no answer thus far...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    Jennifer Williams
    @JenWilliamsMEN
    ·
    48m
    I’ve figured it out. The UK government is participating in a not-governing pilot, for which it was randomly selected out of 1 govts who applied.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    edited July 2021
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    And that fairly appalling piece by Revolver is trying to support that situation by insisting that white economic dominance is the price of a successful economy and policies that seek to change that are doomed to failure, all with a deeply undemocratic American slant. Ugh.
    It’s really not saying that. It’s saying that the black crony capitalism espoused by the ANC, and ideologically supported by early versions of CRT, is economically catastrophic. Ironically, as others on PB have noted, it has left racial inequality in SA just as bad as it ever was, but with added and bloody violence (57 murders A DAY), meaning those who can escape are escaping

    Today is Mandela day. The country that great man tried to birth is an abortion
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,660
    Andy_JS said:

    "Man gets ‘racial hatred’ police record - for whistling the Bob The Builder theme tune at his neighbour

    Officers in Bedfordshire recorded the incident as a non-crime hate incident
    Few other details about the ‘crime’ are known but it will remain on file for years
    Campaigners call for the ‘Orwellian’ police guidelines for hate to be scrapped"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9798849/Man-gets-racial-hatred-police-record-whistling-Bob-Builder-theme-tune.html

    Tune into GBNews now for the full story.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    Indeed. The real pilot program here is testing what they can get away with. https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1416687721016344579
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,124
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    This attitude is a recipe for the entire world getting nothing done because you can always make a reasonably convincing argument that someone else is worse, or the response would be more cost-effective if someone else did it, or that someone else bears more responsibility and *deserves* to pay more of the cost. On the Brazilian version of pb someone will be equally persuasively arguing that the developed countries are emitting more per head, have more money to deal with it, developed their own economies without regard to the environment and Brazil shouldn't have to worry about what they do with their forest until the British and the other developed countries clean up their act.

    The reality is that there are countries, and the ability to affect what people in other countries do is limited, so the only way to make progress is if everyone does what they can to reduce their own respective 1%.
This discussion has been closed.