Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The front pages not good for ministers on the eve of what was designated Freedom day – politicalbett

12467

Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554

    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
    HYUFD Bingo!!!!

    I claim my Henry VIII quarter groat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 99,047
    edited July 2021

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Superb trolling by @rcs1000 upthread.

    Hard to rate administrations, but weirdly Boris’s does feel like Brown’s or Major’s in terms of wheels falling off.

    Weird because the polls don’t show this.

    I keep banging on about this but it’s because we who oppose them hate each other as much (or almost as much) as the Tories. Which is why Starmer’s major battle this week will be within his own party. Again.
    Look at the first of Starmer's here to Hear sessions in Blackpool. Corbyn and the hard left brought up as why people don't vote Labour any more.

    He needs to kill off the lunatics. Expel them. Have the anti-semites and the revolutionary marxists expelled. Its not like they are going to take voters with them. The problem for Labour is that serkeir is frit. Had the chance to get this done by shitcanning Corbyn and blew it.
    Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether you are right (you may well be) your post nevertheless demonstrates the problem I’m identifying.
    Absolutely - and isn't it time to end the fight? The loony left actively want to remain in self-righteous opposition. They are repulsive to normal voters and bring Labour into disrepute.

    The solution is nuke them. A one-off mass expulsion of the hard left who splinter off into a myriad of factions. Labour go back to talking to the mass of centre ground voters, don't look crazy any more, start to gain support.
    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.
    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    Let’s end the infighting once and for all with a last round of infighting
    As someone somewhat sympathetic to the Labour cause, I only have to picture in my mind's eye the angry, ruddy face of the late Eric Heffer to remind me what irrational, incompetent, useless, nasty-party Labour looks like.
    Even Corbyn never managed to get as close to putting Labour in third place as Foot and Heffer did in 1983, Jenkins' SDP on 25% was just 2% behind Foot's Labour on 27%
    Michael Foot was a decent, doddery old intellectual fool. Heffer's was the face of British-Soviet evil. Corbyn was just a less physically vomit-inducing version of Heffer.

    Perhaps the greatest shame was that the SDP ultimately failed and we retain elements within the Labour Party who are steeped in Union-Baron corruption and of red flags flying over Downing Street. See, it isn't just Johnson who loves a flag!
    It is true that most western nations now have their main non conservative opposition as either a liberal Party eg in Canada or En Marche in France or a social democratic party as in Germany or Scandinavia or a combination of the 2 as in the US or Italy.

    The UK is a rarity along with Australia, New Zealand and Spain as having a Socialist or Labour Party as the main party of the centre left.

    The SDP would have been closer to the western norm than the Labour Party is, though the SDP still lives on in the LDs of course
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    I’ve been randomly selected for the I don’t care anymore scheme https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1416688741821919232/photo/1
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,398

    I honestly think this will now spiral completely out of this government's control now.

    It is clear there is already mounting anger over the pingdemic.

    Today's news will just blow that completely out of the water.

    No one is going to listen to a bloody word they say now.

    Some people won't listen if they try to bring the rules back, others will because they are forced to (e.g. business owners,) and yet more will because they are scared witless. But in what proportions? Lord alone knows.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    The 40,000 person pilot scheme linked to above is not available to those in contact with someone infected by a variant of concern (read the small print). So, on the assumption that the Health Secretary has been infected by Delta that particular scheme is not available to the PM. It must be the workplace scheme for which, serendipitously, Downing Street was selected.

    I don't think delta is a variant in the UK now, it's the dominant strain. It's still a completely ridiculous decision.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    pigeon said:

    Some people won't listen if they try to bring the rules back, others will because they are forced to (e.g. business owners,) and yet more will because they are scared witless. But in what proportions? Lord alone knows.

    Iceland boss 👇 https://twitter.com/icelandrichard/status/1416669156586528769
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 99,047

    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
    Actually it is for the UK government to decide under the Scotland Act 1998 and Nicola has meekly but correctly accepted she cannot hold a legal indyref2 without UK government approval or declare UDI
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 50,694
    Scott_xP said:

    It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.

    #PMQs
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1410260085008265216/video/1

    That's it!! Every message from now on, Starmer. Every spokesperson. Every tweet. Every leaflet. Every TV pool clip. Say virtually nothing else this summer. Scrap the precious summer grid with worthy opposition policy announcements on after school clubs.

    Hammer it until it bleeds as the Ragin' Cajun might have said.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
    I feel like early 70s felt a bit like this.
    Vietnam; National Front; Oil Crises etc.

    But I wasn’t there so I don’t know.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,357
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    Was it like this at the end of the Roman Empire?

    That era was roiled by plagues, as well

    The scale of dysfunction, decay and dissent feels unprecedented

    I dunno. I wasn’t really aware of the 60s, maybe that felt as feverish as this. But the 60s were also a period of hope. People were rebelling to make the world better, however naively

    Almost everywhere life seems to be getting worse. I mean, they’ve closed the fucking Atlantic bar at Sheekeys

    I see the Tiber foaming with much blood
    There are times @Leon when you come across as a bit of a drama queen. You know that, right?
    Er, yeah

    However this one of the few occasions when drama-queening is surely justified. We are in the middle of a global plague, which seems to be peaking as power shifts from the democratic west to the autocratic east, as our societies are riven with racial conflict, and as potentially calamitous climate change really says Hello

    And the number of decent fish restaurants in London has halved. HALVED!!!
    In the 1960s we had the Cuban missile crisis, with us a few blinks away from nuclear apocalypse, and the Cultural Revolution sweeping Asia. Bloody chaos in the Congo. Civil Rights activists shot in America and Enoch foreseeing rivers of blood here. To suggest the Sixties were a time of optimism is slightly stretching it.

    Indeed listen to this happy tune from those times:

    https://youtu.be/qfZVu0alU0I

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 22,418
    Leon said:


    It’s not a British failing, it’s a human failing. No one wants to accept the terrible reality of a lethal pandemic, so almost everyone errs towards optimism

    You saw the same process in World War 1. ‘Over by Christmas’. ‘The last big push in 1915’. ‘The somme will begin the drive to Berlin’

    Imagine if you’d sat people down in August 1914 and said, ‘this war will last 4 years, it will kill tens of millions in futile trench warfare, it will topple empires and it will facilitate devastating plagues, and it will eventually lead to another, even worse world war with industrialized extermination of entire races’

    You wouldn’t have been invited back to the Andrew Marr show

    I thinks it's more to do with being bad at thinking about and dealing with uncertainty.

    The thing that has got my back up and makes me appear so tetchy on the subject is how absolutely God damn certain people have been about the future trajectory.

    "Cases will definitely peak within 2 weeks"
    "Scotland in hospital number will certainly not got over 250"
    Etc

    The getting angry at the wide error bars on various models is also a symptom of this.

    Failing to accept uncertainty constrains your thinking.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,969
    Scott_xP said:

    There are 2 "pilot" schemes...

    Housing Sec Robert Jenrick says it's very important for people to self-isolate if they are contacted by Test and Trace.

    But the PM & Chancellor won't have to because they'll be taking part in a daily testing pilot #Phillips

    The PM & Chancellor are able to take part in this daily testing pilot because Downing Street is one of a variety of selected organisations included in the scheme & has an asymptomatic testing site. Eligibility for the pilot is assessed on a case by case basis.

    This trial is running in conjunction with the public scheme (👇) & is for workplaces with a testing site. The reference to people selected at "random" applies to the public study. Eligibility for the workplace study is assessed on a case by case basis.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1416665426419986437

    Any narrative starting with "Housing Sec. Robert Jenrick" immediately emits the foul stench of utter bullsh*t!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Interested to see how quickly Sunak u-turns and attempts to do so first…. https://twitter.com/davidgauke/status/1416687721016344579
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
    Actually it is for the UK government to decide under the Scotland Act 1998 and Nicola has meekly but correctly accepted she cannot hold a legal indyref2 without UK government approval or declare UDI
    Bingo!

    Another quarter groat for me. Thank you.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Scott_xP said:

    pigeon said:

    Some people won't listen if they try to bring the rules back, others will because they are forced to (e.g. business owners,) and yet more will because they are scared witless. But in what proportions? Lord alone knows.

    Iceland boss 👇 https://twitter.com/icelandrichard/status/1416669156586528769
    Boris has lost Iceland.
    Cod wars next, then.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,854
    edited July 2021
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Is the Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, who does not understand that this bit of France is not the part across the Channel, any relation to the former Brexit Secretary, Dominic Raab, who had not realised the importance of the Dover-Calais route? And does either of them own a sodding map?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 50,694
    As people on twittering are pointing out: it is not even hard for the PM to work from home!!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111

    Any narrative starting with "Housing Sec. Robert Jenrick" immediately emits the foul stench of utter bullsh*t!

    Jenrick tells T&G that "the evidence is that more than ever are downloading the app and more than 20 million people do have it on their phones, more people are making use of it every day..."

    ... hmmm k.

    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1416689647510507522
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,118



    Corbyn has been a Labour Party member for ever. All through the Blair years, he sat on the backbenches happily dividing his time between his allotment and attending demos on every left-wing cause. The PLP has always had people like him - not a problem, just as the Tory PLP has some 'eccentrics' that they tolerate.

    What Starmer is focusing on is groups who are 'entryists' for want of a better name. People who, unlike Corbyn, have no Labour Party history, but were more likely to have been involved in the SWP or other Trotskyite groups in the past, and have tried to hijack the Labour Party, particularly in some CLPs.

    Starmer is getting it right. He needs to purge the entryists, not the Labour left.

    We're talking about the same people. A core of the hard left stayed aboard after the Kinnock purges, and when they took over the party in 2015 opened the door wide open to the lunatics. The problem now is how you separate the two. How do you remove the anti-semites and not Corbyn? How do you remove the revolutionary marxists and not MPs like John McDonnell who spend all their time associating with them?
    No, Northern Al is right. There is a world of difference between permanently angry ultras and the traditional left. And I don't really care about these four groups, only one of which I've even heard of. Nonetheless, we need to move on to a positive agenda; we cannot define ourselves purely by what we are not.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203

    Scott_xP said:

    It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.

    #PMQs
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1410260085008265216/video/1

    That's it!! Every message from now on, Starmer. Every spokesperson. Every tweet. Every leaflet. Every TV pool clip. Say virtually nothing else this summer. Scrap the precious summer grid with worthy opposition policy announcements on after school clubs.

    Hammer it until it bleeds as the Ragin' Cajun might have said.
    It’s not like they even needed to wait for this latest example.

    But, yes. Totes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    ‘I won’t be swimming myself, I’m part of a pilot scheme to stay uneaten’ https://twitter.com/davelee1968/status/1416681872189497344/photo/1


  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,271
    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
    PR for a start. Maybe a Council of the Nations or indeed of the Isles (plus or minus the non-Nirish bit of Ireland).

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,357

    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.

    Today is a fantastic feast of "Defend the Indefensible"!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    This is Barnard Castle on steroids - the PM must self-isolate or he risks destroying test and trace.
    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1416690691862892545
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    As people on twittering are pointing out: it is not even hard for the PM to work from home!!

    Yeah this is the odd part, it's not exactly a massive deal for them. Neither of them absolutely have to be in their workplaces.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Eeek literally one rule for those on "research schemes" and another for everyone else 😬 https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1416688326602600449
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,248

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country
    Is the Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, who does not understand that this bit of France is not the part across the Channel, any relation to the former Brexit Secretary, Dominic Raab, who had not realised the importance of the Dover-Calais route? And does either of them own a sodding map?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
    To be fair, all the evidence is that it was our brilliant SAGE scientists clamouring for France to be put on the red list at enormous economic, political and diplomatic cost who were failing in basic geography. But then this isn’t their area of expertise after all...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554
    Foxy said:

    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.

    Today is a fantastic feast of "Defend the Indefensible"!
    It is, isn't it? Like a whole convention of American charismatic preachers* caught with their trousers down in the seedier parts of LA.

    But all the time the virus is going on and the poor medical services have to deal with it.

    *In fairness, other denominations are available.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,681
    Johnson is behaving exactly as you would expect Johnson to behave. It is entirely unsurprising. He has always had total contempt for everyone but himself. Sunak, though, was supposed to be different, wasn't he?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
    PR for a start. Maybe a Council of the Nations or indeed of the Isles (plus or minus the non-Nirish bit of Ireland).

    How would said Council work?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    BoZo has also lost Oakeshitt

    In 20 years of political reporting, I’ve rarely seen such contemptuous behaviour by a prime minister. Let’s #SendThemAMessage https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1416691884257329157/video/1
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,912
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    I see Bolton now has 2 days of cases above their May 7-day average peak.

    The mathematically impossible has happened!

    Eh?

    Who claimed it was mathematically impossible for cases to be above May peaks?

    Delta is highly transmissable. Schools are (or were) operating normally. And children are unvaccinated.

    The question is what happens next, now that schools break up, the weather has improved and the Euros are behind us.
    That fact that Bolton peaked in May was used as extremely confident evidence that Delta had burned out fast.

    It had ripped through the remaining unvaccinated and that was it done. With increasing vaccination numbers there was no new people to infect and it was over. Delta had flared briefly and was gone with only faint echoes in the surrounding counties.

    Cases 100% deffo peaked at less than 10k.
    Are you really trying to compare individual days now with a weekly average in a different period ?

    Really ???
    How is Kirklees working out for you?

    Edit: thr implication is that the Bol on current 7 day average is going to rise pas the May "peak".
    Kirklees has significantly fewer cases now than it did last autumn:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=ltla&areaName=Kirklees

    Different places have different levels of cases and over different periods of time but its quite clear that nowhere goes exponential to infinity.
    Absolutely tremendous goalpost shifting.

    Just, Phenomenal.
    Look at the data and see the reality.

    You seem to be a bit bitter that things aren't bad enough.

    Strange. Very strange.
    You said "its bollox" that we'd get to 40,000 cases a day by July because of "the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees".

    I looked at the data (as you requested above) and saw the reality that new cases in Kirklees has gone vastly higher than when you said that and that Bolton and Bedfordshire's fall has stalled and in fact new cases have been increasing for the last month.

    And we are over 40,000 cases a day.

    Yet somehow you think your predictions were correct and you didn't pronounce too hastily given the data available?

    It's a view I suppose.
    I said it was bollox that cases would extrapolate to infinity and I was extremely sceptical that cases would exceed the peak in January as that didn't happen in Bolton or Blackburn.

    And infections are certainly not going to extrapolate to infinity and, so far, haven't reached the level of January.

    Though the pattern I pointed out of local cases not exceeding their previous peaks has been broken in parts of the North-East and Yorkshire. Why that has happened in July when it didn't happen in the North-West in June I don't know but I would speculate that the football led to more super-spreader events than the slow seepage in Lancashire and they will have a higher but narrower peak. On a more positive side London has been affected much less by Delta than it was in the winter wave, again for reasons we cannot be sure about.

    I do find it fascinating that you are so obsessed at trying, and failing, to prove that things are so much worse than some people thought they would be.

    Yet you spend no time being concerned about any predictions of enormous numbers of infections and collapsing health services.

    Perhaps you actually want higher cases and more deaths because winning a pointless argument on the internet is more important to you than the damage to people's lives which would result from it.
    You were specifically replying to a news story that had been posted saying cases would be 40k a day in July.

    Not some nonsense about extrapolating to infinity.

    I'm talking about basic factual matters.

    I am not trying to win some "Doomier than thou" competition. If you have payed any attention to my posts you would see that I am intensely relaxed about the situation and am socialising happily at the moment.

    But I am just positively delighted that once again we have total denial of reality and not a shred of contrition or self reflection on confident predictions being busted.

    The carry on as normal crew on here have been relentless

    No worse than flu in March 2020
    Already Over in April
    Herd Immunity Achieved in May
    False Positivises in August
    Casedemic in September
    No Second Wave in October
    Already peaked by mid October
    Over by Christmas in November
    and now
    Cases cannot rise any further in June

    And it's the same people again and again (and again).

    What we as a nation do next is a super interesting question that I'd lvoe to discuss but as I said to rcs yesterday it's hard to take seriously people who have shown zero ability to learn from their past mistakes.
    Yet yesterday you were under the impression that Kirklees and Bolton were disaster zones.

    Whereas the reality, which could be discovered by looking at some data, is both have lower levels of infection than the surrounding areas. A pattern which is emphasised even more by looking at the MSOAs where Delta was first seeded.

    Thus proving, as I have always stated, that cases do not extrapolate to infinity and that a steady seepage of Delta through the country during this summer was preferable to a more intense hit during the autumn.

    Now what has happened in some parts of the country, the North-East and earlier Scotland, has not been the slow seepage of infection but a harder hit very likely caused by the football. This was certainly not ideal but at least better that it happened now than in the autumn and in Scotland infections are already in sharp decline. Hopefully that fall will be imitated by those areas in England which have had a similar but later sharp rise.

    Consequently the national spread of Delta has been accelerated, not ideal but hopefully will lead towards herd immunity quicker. Now I will freely admit that has happened faster than I would have expected but I do not remember anyone predicting such an effect from the football - it certainly caught the Scottish government by surprise for example.

    On the other hand infections in London have risen far slower than everyone feared they might.

    So the reality is a confused and changing picture but one in which some things are confirmed - infections do not extrapolate to infinity and that super spreader events lead to an acceleration of infections.

    I'll leave you to continue your one sided pernickety complaining of people who point out useful data such as none of the early Delta infected towns reaching their level of infections of the winter or who expose the fallacies of doomster predictions based on extrapolations to infinity.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    To clear this up (I hope) the PM and chancellor have been exempted from isolation as a result of a different pilot scheme from the “general” pilot I cited below. Details of it are in a press release sent by Downing St today. A few employers are involved, including… https://twitter.com/peston/status/1416660660168151041

    Downing St. You can read about it in the attachment. The point is that it does institutionalise an exception to quarantine for ministers, without explaining why they should have this privilege, when millions - including the leader of the opposition, eg - do not. https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1416678058518618113/photo/1
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Not only can Boris work from home*, he doesn’t actually work much anyway.

    *Chequers, ie, a massive stately home in the Chilterns.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    A couple of years ago my dad was somewhere in South Africa, can’t remember exactly where.

    He and his wife were at a resort that was virtually empty, for a couple of days they had the pool area to themselves. Then a black South African couple turned up, but kept their distance; my dad noticed that they didn’t get in the pool when my he and his missus were in it, things like that.

    My dad, being my dad, went over and said hello and got chatting to them. It turns out they (the black couple) assumed my dad and his wife were South African and were relieved, and became very friendly, when they learned they’re Brits.

    Apparently many white South Africans, even now, will not swim in the pool if there are black people in there. If they’re in the pool and a black person gets in, they will get out immediately. They won’t speak to black people, mix or associate with them socially.

    We know from the long hangover from slavery and segregation in America how enduring racism is.

    What I ponder is how these hangovers affect the psyche of the community that has been discriminated against. The descendants of Holocaust survivors can be impacted and traumatised by the experience of their forebears. Why should it be any different for blacks in the US or SA? And how does this manifest itself today?

    Plus, much like the Soviet Union kept a lid on the Balkans and long-standing ethnic and territorial disputes in Eastern Europe, the white regimes in South Africa probably damped down divisions in the black population amongst tribal lines, or other divides. They’ll have had 20-odd years to come to the boil now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
    PR for a start. Maybe a Council of the Nations or indeed of the Isles (plus or minus the non-Nirish bit of Ireland).

    How would said Council work?
    The one that's been discussed, giving the various nations more rights against simple English dominance, for instance on major changes such as Brexit. Not really however in the mood to discuss it further I'm afriad partly it's a sunny day (though also cloudy here), partly I have to go and finish a job, partly becausde I don't believe it would happen. The killer app is, overwhelmingly, PR I think.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,623

    Scott_xP said:

    It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.

    #PMQs
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1410260085008265216/video/1

    That's it!! Every message from now on, Starmer. Every spokesperson. Every tweet. Every leaflet. Every TV pool clip. Say virtually nothing else this summer. Scrap the precious summer grid with worthy opposition policy announcements on after school clubs.

    Hammer it until it bleeds as the Ragin' Cajun might have said.
    It’s not like they even needed to wait for this latest example.

    But, yes. Totes.
    Will it work though? We all know a Labour government would have exactly the same attitude.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    My wife, who is apolitical, is hopping.

    I am reminded of her response to L’affaire Hancock

    Me: Health Sec has been caught playing away.
    Her: So?
    Me: With an aide.
    Her: So?
    Me: Breaking the Corona rules.
    Her: BURN HIM.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    BoZo is safe...

    Don't think people understand how bad this is going to get for Boris. This isn't just another screw up. It's Poll-Tax/Black Wednesday territory.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1416693569025413120
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Boris Johnson should be setting an example.

    Instead, he gives himself and his Chancellor preferential treatment. It’s a slap in the face to everyone who has made sacrifices to self isolate.

    It can't be one rule for the Conservatives and another for everyone else.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1416693671068643328
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893
    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203

    Scott_xP said:

    It's one rule for them and another for everyone else.

    #PMQs
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1410260085008265216/video/1

    That's it!! Every message from now on, Starmer. Every spokesperson. Every tweet. Every leaflet. Every TV pool clip. Say virtually nothing else this summer. Scrap the precious summer grid with worthy opposition policy announcements on after school clubs.

    Hammer it until it bleeds as the Ragin' Cajun might have said.
    It’s not like they even needed to wait for this latest example.

    But, yes. Totes.
    Will it work though? We all know a Labour government would have exactly the same attitude.
    Who’s we? I don’t know this at all.
    And I’ve never voted for them, don’t call me a Labour partisan.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
    PR for a start. Maybe a Council of the Nations or indeed of the Isles (plus or minus the non-Nirish bit of Ireland).

    How would said Council work?
    The one that's been discussed, giving the various nations more rights against simple English dominance, for instance on major changes such as Brexit. Not really however in the mood to discuss it further I'm afriad partly it's a sunny day (though also cloudy here), partly I have to go and finish a job, partly becausde I don't believe it would happen. The killer app is, overwhelmingly, PR I think.
    Thanks. Am curious.
    But yes, it is far too sunny for such.

    I am already in the back garden, listening to Curtis Mayfield, and chortling at PB...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Whilst the test and trace pilot is fairly restrictive, allowing only essential government business, I recognise that even the sense that the rules aren’t the same for everyone is wrong.

    To that end I’ll be self isolating as normal and not taking part in the pilot.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,197
    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo is safe...

    Don't think people understand how bad this is going to get for Boris. This isn't just another screw up. It's Poll-Tax/Black Wednesday territory.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1416693569025413120

    Massive overreaction I think
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    Two observations:
    1. Clown no longer cares what people think - his previously instinctive knack for knowing what the gut feel of ordinary voters is has long departed. Of course people should self-isolate, don't they know how perilous the situation is? As they should do by listening to him and his ministers who have urged caution and restraint without deviation or hesitancy for weeks now
    2. The PB Clown apologists will literally defend anything. Anything at all. They are in power, they intend to stay in power, the opinions of the plebs is irrelevant.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    Whilst the test and trace pilot is fairly restrictive, allowing only essential government business, I recognise that even the sense that the rules aren’t the same for everyone is wrong.

    To that end I’ll be self isolating as normal and not taking part in the pilot.


    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857?s=20
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554
    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 215
    MaxPB said:

    The 40,000 person pilot scheme linked to above is not available to those in contact with someone infected by a variant of concern (read the small print). So, on the assumption that the Health Secretary has been infected by Delta that particular scheme is not available to the PM. It must be the workplace scheme for which, serendipitously, Downing Street was selected.

    I don't think delta is a variant in the UK now, it's the dominant strain. It's still a completely ridiculous decision.
    As of two days ago, it very much is still scheduled as a VOC:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-variants-genomically-confirmed-case-numbers/variants-distribution-of-case-data-16-july-2021
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,197

    Whilst the test and trace pilot is fairly restrictive, allowing only essential government business, I recognise that even the sense that the rules aren’t the same for everyone is wrong.

    To that end I’ll be self isolating as normal and not taking part in the pilot.


    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857?s=20

    Job done. Con +2%
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498

    My wife, who is apolitical, is hopping.

    I am reminded of her response to L’affaire Hancock

    Me: Health Sec has been caught playing away.
    Her: So?
    Me: With an aide.
    Her: So?
    Me: Breaking the Corona rules.
    Her: BURN HIM.

    And yet no opprobrium for Mr Gove for doing the same. Oh yeah, superinjunction...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Hunt, Raab or Truss would all have less electoral appeal than Boris, even if they may have more competence, Hunt and Truss in particular would go down badly in the Red Wall as ex Remainers who are more pro lower spending than Boris. They would be a gift to Starmer.

    Rishi would also have slightly less appeal in the Red Wall than Boris but more than they do and might be able to make up for it with gains in the Remain areas of the Home Counties and posher areas of London which are where Boris is weakest, however overall he would not add anything either

    I think the question you need to consider is this:

    Once the Conservatives are out of office (which will happen sooner or later), what is the way back? It's the question the Republicans are asking (or should be asking if they weren't so besotted by Trump).

    Presumably Johnson goes as soon as power is lost and, depending on the scale of the defeat, the survivors will, as in 1997, scrap for what's left.

    That isn't the issue - whither conservatism after Johnson? I'd argue the Cameron brand was very different from the Major brand but that took nearly a decade and two more defeats.

    Again, that isn't the issue either - the problem will be the victors (whether Labour alone or in concert with other parties) will be united on just one thing (pace Orwell, none of us wants the Tories back) will, and I'm ashamed to admit this but I fear it will happen, seek to make it as difficult as possible for the Conservatives to win power on their own once again.
    PR for a start. Maybe a Council of the Nations or indeed of the Isles (plus or minus the non-Nirish bit of Ireland).

    How would said Council work?
    The one that's been discussed, giving the various nations more rights against simple English dominance, for instance on major changes such as Brexit. Not really however in the mood to discuss it further I'm afriad partly it's a sunny day (though also cloudy here), partly I have to go and finish a job, partly becausde I don't believe it would happen. The killer app is, overwhelmingly, PR I think.
    Thanks. Am curious.
    But yes, it is far too sunny for such.

    I am already in the back garden, listening to Curtis Mayfield, and chortling at PB...
    Not too sunny, here happily ... the Copuncil of the Nations/Isles was just a bit of an afterthought and in fairness not specifically intended aty any one party, more the elective dictatorship issue. Have a nice time!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 7,892

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    Though South Africa is also riven by tribal conflict between the pro Zuma Zulus and pro Ramaphosa Xhosas within the ANC across most of the country apart from Western Cape which is the only South African province not controlled by the ANC
    Ominous signs of state failure around the world. Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, South Africa, Myanmar. Meanwhile, climate change suddenly feels very real, and predictions the world will collapse quite soon seem to be coming true


    ‘If you were wondering, society will collapse in 2040.

    VICE: MIT Predicted in 1972 That Society Will Collapse This Century. New Research Shows We're on Schedule.
    vice.com/en/article/z3x…’

    https://twitter.com/power2control/status/1415336773673181188?s=21

    Hyperbole aside, this is easily the most dangerous, menacing moment for humanity in my lifetime. The worst since 1945, the worst in peacetime for many thousands of years?
    It is a complete failure to see the big picture that troubles me. We obsessively self flagellate ourselves about how quickly we can convert to electric vehicles here and what we can do to reduce our 1% of carbon emissions and yet stand by as the lungs of the planet in the Amazon switch from being a carbon sink to a carbon producer. The money we spend trying to reduce our miniscule contribution could do so much more good elsewhere but so many environmentalists are really obsessed with bullying and control and their moral superiority here that the argument is not even made.

    Until we bring some proper science to this and focus on what actually matters and what actually works rather than do goodery we will sink ever deeper into the mire.
    This attitude is a recipe for the entire world getting nothing done because you can always make a reasonably convincing argument that someone else is worse, or the response would be more cost-effective if someone else did it, or that someone else bears more responsibility and *deserves* to pay more of the cost. On the Brazilian version of pb someone will be equally persuasively arguing that the developed countries are emitting more per head, have more money to deal with it, developed their own economies without regard to the environment and Brazil shouldn't have to worry about what they do with their forest until the British and the other developed countries clean up their act.

    The reality is that there are countries, and the ability to affect what people in other countries do is limited, so the only way to make progress is if everyone does what they can to reduce their own respective 1%.
    The other thing is that, while there might be an optimal order in which to do things, ultimately we have to do everything, so doing things in the right order isn't that important.

    We're not going to be in a situation where we've replaced all our electricity from gas with wind turbines and can then decide that was enough and we don't need to worry about internal combustion engines or gas central heating. It all needs to be dealt with.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    MaxPB said:

    The 40,000 person pilot scheme linked to above is not available to those in contact with someone infected by a variant of concern (read the small print). So, on the assumption that the Health Secretary has been infected by Delta that particular scheme is not available to the PM. It must be the workplace scheme for which, serendipitously, Downing Street was selected.

    I don't think delta is a variant in the UK now, it's the dominant strain. It's still a completely ridiculous decision.
    As of two days ago, it very much is still scheduled as a VOC:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-variants-genomically-confirmed-case-numbers/variants-distribution-of-case-data-16-july-2021
    I mean in practical terms.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,912

    Johnson is behaving exactly as you would expect Johnson to behave. It is entirely unsurprising. He has always had total contempt for everyone but himself. Sunak, though, was supposed to be different, wasn't he?

    Clearly a mistake on the moral and political side by Sunak.

    That said perhaps he's as bored and annoyed by the futility of many of the regulations as everyone is at my workplace and similarly ignoring them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,088
    Off to Plymouth Hoe to join the crowds watching the sailGP racing. App deleted.

    60th birthday yesterday. Dom P 2010, Macon Uzigny 2019, sentient lobster. Yum.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Fresh off his four hour Sunday morning media round defending the incomprehensible right up to the moment of U turn , Robert Jenrick is presumably quite the picture right now
    https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/1416695033160470537
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    hahahahahaha - a world-beating 2 hours and 37 minutes between these two beautifully contradictory statements https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1416694929460453376/photo/1
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    A rapid u-turn. What will keep the story going is Clown insisting that there was no pilot scheme and at no point was he trying to dodge his own rules.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    What if this U-turn undermines the the integrity of the very important scientific research programme that the prime minister and chancellor were taking part in.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416695195584827393
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,250

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    Yes, and the Greek islands last year
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,153
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    Bozo to hold firm or flip flop?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    So Boris Johnson will now be spending "Freedom Day" self isolating. This is, I suspect, not quite the optics he was looking for.
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1416695520635072516
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    While the commentariate and the opposition will quite rightly make hay with this U-turn, voters in general tend to be more forgiving of politicians who swiftly admit mistakes and reverse course. The bigger question is who took this spectacularly tone deaf decision in the first place.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    Bozo to hold firm or flip flop?
    Simultaneous announcement from both.
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 379

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
    Reference? Good, if that is the case, but I'm sure you'll forgive me for thinking that it's still a remarkable coincidence that so many cabinet ministers are included.
    Mumsnet. Mixed in with loads of people who haven't heard of it and a number suggesting that, given that it is apparently a 50% chance whether you get on the pilot, it is remarkable that both Johnson and Javid are on it. Of course, if we assume normal rules were applied, there is still a 25% chance that both would have got on. It may be, of course, that they want more publicity for the pilot so that, when it becomes available to all (which is, presumably, the plan), it counters those who will say it is taking an unnecessary risk.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,969
    Scott_xP said:

    Whilst the test and trace pilot is fairly restrictive, allowing only essential government business, I recognise that even the sense that the rules aren’t the same for everyone is wrong.

    To that end I’ll be self isolating as normal and not taking part in the pilot.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857

    Prime Minister in waiting? Don't like him, but quite frankly the sooner the better.

    Sunak gets it, Johnson doesn't.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,153
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    Bozo to hold firm or flip flop?
    Simultaneous announcement from both.
    They got there in the end. What a waste of political capital this morning was.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    I wonder when Boris realised Rishi was going to u turn, and vice versa.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554
    IshmaelZ said:

    Off to Plymouth Hoe to join the crowds watching the sailGP racing. App deleted.

    60th birthday yesterday. Dom P 2010, Macon Uzigny 2019, sentient lobster. Yum.

    Many happy returns (though I hope the lobster was no longer sentient at the relevant time, rathe redolent of You Only Live Twice).
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    “ Whilst the test and trace pilot is fairly restrictive, allowing only essential government business, I recognise that even the sense that the rules aren’t the same for everyone is wrong.

    To that end I’ll be self isolating as normal and not taking part in the pilot. “.

    I don’t know what to make of that. Surely it’s breaking ranks as you say? It has to be the statement for all of them, or the pilot for all of them?

    I am trying to put myself in the position of one of his colleagues who has already said the the pilot scheme is good enough, I think I wouldn’t be happy with Rishi telling the world the pilot scheme is a cop out whilst I have told the world I am doing the pilot.
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 215
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The 40,000 person pilot scheme linked to above is not available to those in contact with someone infected by a variant of concern (read the small print). So, on the assumption that the Health Secretary has been infected by Delta that particular scheme is not available to the PM. It must be the workplace scheme for which, serendipitously, Downing Street was selected.

    I don't think delta is a variant in the UK now, it's the dominant strain. It's still a completely ridiculous decision.
    As of two days ago, it very much is still scheduled as a VOC:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-variants-genomically-confirmed-case-numbers/variants-distribution-of-case-data-16-july-2021
    I mean in practical terms.
    Agreed. Begs the question whether there should be a category for variants now established.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,554

    alex_ said:

    ‘A quarantine dodge by Boris Johnson after meeting COVID-positive Sajid Javid would unleash a massive 'do as I say, not as I do' row‘

    The timing could hardly be worse. A little more than 24 hours before what he used to call Freedom Day, Boris Johnson is under pressure to self-isolate.

    [Mr Javid] has had two jabs, both Oxford AstraZeneca.

    While the PM will no doubt be angry and frustrated at being "pinged", there are worse places to self-isolate than the 16th-century grace-and-favour mansion in the beautiful rolling countryside of the Chiltern Hills.

    "If Boris doesn't isolate and uses this 'pilot scheme', I will be encouraging my constituents to do the same," one unnamed Tory MP was quoted as saying. "There cannot be one rule for us and one for everyone else."

    “Unnamed Tory MP. Ho ho. Next PM market:

    Rishi Sunak 14/5
    Michael Gove 10/1
    Jeremy Hunt 12/1
    Dominic Raab 20/1

    Spot the sneak.
    Seems to me that the "pilot" scheme is likely to be a lot better and more effective scheme than the current situation. So if everyone starts doing it instead then IMO that would be a good thing...
    Good morning everybody.

    How does one get on the 'pilot scheme'? As far as I can see it only applies to senior ministers.
    The pilot has been running since 9th May when it had a target of covering 40,000 people. Anyone contacted by NHS Test and Trace is offered the chance to join the pilot. They are eligible to take part if they don't have symptoms, are 18 or over, live in England, are not in full time education and are not under quarantine rules. You can read about it at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-launch-40000-person-daily-contact-testing-study. So no, this isn't something special for senior ministers and they are not being treated differently from the rest of us.
    I believe you, of course, but it's 'odd' that three (at least) senior ministers appear to have been included in the pilot, but no-one here appears to have been.
    On another, much larger and non-political, forum I am seeing plenty of people saying that they have been offered it or know people who were.
    Reference? Good, if that is the case, but I'm sure you'll forgive me for thinking that it's still a remarkable coincidence that so many cabinet ministers are included.
    Mumsnet. Mixed in with loads of people who haven't heard of it and a number suggesting that, given that it is apparently a 50% chance whether you get on the pilot, it is remarkable that both Johnson and Javid are on it. Of course, if we assume normal rules were applied, there is still a 25% chance that both would have got on. It may be, of course, that they want more publicity for the pilot so that, when it becomes available to all (which is, presumably, the plan), it counters those who will say it is taking an unnecessary risk.
    Of course, having people booked on it and then suddenly jumping ship will mess up the sampling - especially as those will be overhelmingly male and middle aged.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    Two observations:
    1. Clown no longer cares what people think - his previously instinctive knack for knowing what the gut feel of ordinary voters is has long departed. Of course people should self-isolate, don't they know how perilous the situation is? As they should do by listening to him and his ministers who have urged caution and restraint without deviation or hesitancy for weeks now
    2. The PB Clown apologists will literally defend anything. Anything at all. They are in power, they intend to stay in power, the opinions of the plebs is irrelevant.

    Almost the same quality timing as my Hancock won't resign post. Still doesn't beat that though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,049
    Scott_xP said:

    What if this U-turn undermines the the integrity of the very important scientific research programme that the prime minister and chancellor were taking part in.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416695195584827393

    It’s a gloriously sunny day and you’re spending it spamming crap From twitter onto the site.

    😂👍😂😂😂

    I’m drilling holes into a brick to hang a washing line and that’s more interesting than your contributions
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    Oh...

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    edited July 2021
    What a glorious u-turn.
    Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive.

    In days to come we, grey-locked, will remember this morning and count ourselves lucky to have witnessed Boris (and Rishi) with his pants well and truly around his ankles.

    Except Charles and DavidL, who were keen to help the pant-flapping.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Off to Plymouth Hoe to join the crowds watching the sailGP racing. App deleted.

    60th birthday yesterday. Dom P 2010, Macon Uzigny 2019, sentient lobster. Yum.

    I wonder if the lobster enjoyed it as much as you?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 7,892

    Johnson is behaving exactly as you would expect Johnson to behave. It is entirely unsurprising. He has always had total contempt for everyone but himself. Sunak, though, was supposed to be different, wasn't he?

    People are affected by their peers and the organisational culture that they are part of. Also, to not take part in the pilot would be interpreted as being criticism of the PM, and disloyalty. Sunak does still need to keep in with the boss.

    Or it could just be that the husband of a billionaire has a few entitlement issues.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    While the commentariate and the opposition will quite rightly make hay with this U-turn, voters in general tend to be more forgiving of politicians who swiftly admit mistakes and reverse course. The bigger question is who took this spectacularly tone deaf decision in the first place.

    Probably Gove. Would have damaged the PM and the favourite to become PM after Boris.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    Q is really how No 10 and 11 didn’t see this before making their decision

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1416696418895548417?s=20
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,111
    Taz said:

    It’s a gloriously sunny day and you’re spending it spamming crap From twitter onto the site.

    😂👍😂😂😂

    I’m drilling holes into a brick to hang a washing line and that’s more interesting than your contributions

    And yet you took time out from your busy day to comment.

    Sometimes I wonder if my efforts are wasted, but then comments like yours convince me to keep going.

    Thanks.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,088
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Off to Plymouth Hoe to join the crowds watching the sailGP racing. App deleted.

    60th birthday yesterday. Dom P 2010, Macon Uzigny 2019, sentient lobster. Yum.

    Many happy returns (though I hope the lobster was no longer sentient at the relevant time, rathe redolent of You Only Live Twice).
    They thought it was non sentient.

    It is now.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    There is no u-turn
    The PM announced openly that he would gladly self-isolate
    The pilot scheme suggested is a fiction put out by lockdown forever remoaners

    Didn’t Gove use it?

    Seems like Sunak has taken control and dragged the others into a more sensible position. 🙂
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,599
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Only someone who doesn't live here could claim this Government are doing well.

    It's an absolute shambles right now.

    And crowing about our vaccine success over Europe (Fishing) is rapidly coming undone. European countries are starting to fare far better on case rates, morbidity and vaccinations. The UK's decision not to vaccinated under-18's is unbelievably stupid. A disastrous mistake.

    In my lifetime the only other Government that competes with this one on shambles is Callaghan's during the Winter of Discontent. Not even Major's 1992-7 farce comes close, nor the Remainer Parliament of 2017-19.

    That's how bad things are.

    Why are they still 10% ahead in most polls?
    I would turn the question round. Given this government has had a single success - the vaccination rollout - and literally everything else they have touched has fallen apart at the seams, but they still get rewarded in the polls, why would they actually want to be honest, competent and decent?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,912

    As people on twittering are pointing out: it is not even hard for the PM to work from home!!

    Its exposed the ridiculousness of the entire thing:

    1) Boris has previously been infected and is fully vaccinated

    2) He's surrounded by people who will themselves be fully vaccinated

    3) Over half the country doesn't even have the app

    4) Many who do and are pinged will either ignore it or use it as an excuse to get a week off work while not actually self-isolating

    5) The strategy is herd immunity not elimination in any case
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,203
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What if this U-turn undermines the the integrity of the very important scientific research programme that the prime minister and chancellor were taking part in.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416695195584827393

    It’s a gloriously sunny day and you’re spending it spamming crap From twitter onto the site.

    😂👍😂😂😂

    I’m drilling holes into a brick to hang a washing line and that’s more interesting than your contributions
    I actually laughed out loud at the tweet Scott posted there.

    To be fair, Scott’s tweets are objectively more interesting than your DIY efforts.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,503
    edited July 2021
    That ‘BJ being a self-interested, lying, sociopathic, useless shit is baked in with voters’ theory is certainly being tested to destruction.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    MaxPB said:

    While the commentariate and the opposition will quite rightly make hay with this U-turn, voters in general tend to be more forgiving of politicians who swiftly admit mistakes and reverse course. The bigger question is who took this spectacularly tone deaf decision in the first place.

    Probably Gove. Would have damaged the PM and the favourite to become PM after Boris.
    I guess the Cabinet Office may well be in charge of this sort of thing.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,905
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    And that fairly appalling piece by Revolver is trying to support that situation by insisting that white economic dominance is the price of a successful economy and policies that seek to change that are doomed to failure, all with a deeply undemocratic American slant. Ugh.
    Yes, you must watch for that. The brainworm wriggling in the heads of people who make great play of how shit things are in SA is often, "Blacks just can't run things. They're wild and clueless. They need a strong guiding hand. Can't say that, of course, not these days, you'd be cancelled, but it's true."

    It's not necessarily this going on, I should stress, but be in no doubt that it very often is. See also attitudes to the Palestinians (vs the Israelis). Similar sentiments and (by and large) the same people holding them.

    The colonial mindset. Still there. Still very much there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 7,892
    Executing a u-turn more quickly, rather than waiting a couple of days to do so, does indicate an ability to learn from past mistakes, and is more than I had come to expect from this government.

    They've managed to execute this u-turn quickly enough that most people won't have noticed.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,250
    Amy Zebra
    @skepticalzebra
    “I think the mark of being truly liberal is if you started this pandemic disliking Cummings, and every single thing he's done since then has made you dislike him even more.

    There is no redemption arc here. Car crash of a man.”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 17,038
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    First move in the next Tory leadership contest, maybe...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,248
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Your point being?
    You cannot just require quarantine from Reunion, you have to require it for all of France as they are all the same country

    Didn't we treat the Balearics differently to mainland Spain?

    Yes, and the Greek islands last year
    Anyway, even if there was some sort of argument (put by @Leon) that there is a distinction between direct flights and otherwise, it's all back to front. The exemption for Greek Islands/Balearics etc was based on the idea that they were relatively small and it was justified operating a separate policy if possible from the mainland where the problem was. The idea that you set the policy for the mainland based on a minute proportion of French territory 6,000 miles away is clearly ridiculous. What you do is just say the policy of avoiding quarantine doesn't apply to anyone who has visited an overseas territory. (which inevitably is somewhat self policing, just as people avoiding the French quarantine by going via eg. Spain is).

    But i'm quite sure anyway that any justification being employed now is based on trying to cover up for the original screw up in not realising French data included their overseas territories.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,912

    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say this is quite possibly the most stupid decision I've seen this government make. That's some going as well given what we've experienced for the last 18 months.

    I do wonder whether Rishi will break cover and voluntarily isolate. A slick post on social media with Rishi branding rather than government branding too.

    RS Is - just announced on Twatter.

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1416693412674297857
    Bozo to hold firm or flip flop?
    Simultaneous announcement from both.
    They got there in the end. What a waste of political capital this morning was.
    A better strategy would have been to say nothing initially, see which way the wind was blowing and then announce "of course we are self-isolating, that was so obvious we didn't see the need to say so".
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What if this U-turn undermines the the integrity of the very important scientific research programme that the prime minister and chancellor were taking part in.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416695195584827393

    It’s a gloriously sunny day and you’re spending it spamming crap From twitter onto the site.

    😂👍😂😂😂

    I’m drilling holes into a brick to hang a washing line and that’s more interesting than your contributions
    I actually laughed out loud at the tweet Scott posted there.

    To be fair, Scott’s tweets are objectively more interesting than your DIY efforts.
    His whole life is finding anything on twitter that might be vaguely anti Boris or Brexit. It's a sad existence.
This discussion has been closed.