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The front pages not good for ministers on the eve of what was designated Freedom day – politicalbett

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,424
    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,359
    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    I’ve met some extraordinarily capable and sympathetic people that went to Eton. It’s a mystery why we seem to repeatedly get subjected to the dross of their alumni running our lives.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,258

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    Looking forward to the next set of opinion polls.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    Looking forward to the next set of opinion polls.
    Not gonna change, going to be months for anything to come up, I stand by parity by the end of the year though
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,956
    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Greatest ever Etonian?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,596

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Alternatively, the voters won't notice that Labour has thrown out a few hundred hardcore loons, and the party's entrenched image problems will continue to persist.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 14,443

    DavidL said:

    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.

    I am not defending him. I think the rules which he is dodging should not apply to anyone who has been double vaxxed for more than 3 weeks. The fact that he has contrived this absurd excuse so he can continue running the country just shows how silly these rules are. Boris is a risk in all kinds of ways. Infecting people with Covid is not one of them.
    Now the thing is, I agree with you on the practicality of the measures themselves.

    But I immediately saw Boris’s “can’t isolate, won’t isolate” as offensive cakeism, whereas you ran with “what a wonderful govt, at least 7/10”.

    Your compass is almost as bent as Boris’s.
    Tbf I’m happy to accept that DavidL has a moral compass though I may disagree with its cardinal points a lot of the time. Two letters BJ hasn’t got one hence his tin ear in scenarios like this.
    Yes; I meant political compass, rather than moral.
    I have no doubt that DavidL is as scrupulous as Boris is not!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    By focusing so much on the noise we are missing the fact that this is, despite the stupidity and chaos, a more than averagely successful government.

    It really isn't though.

    Successful at winning votes, maybe.

    Feeding it's citizens? Not really.

    Keeping them safe? Nope.

    Educating them? Ha Ha Ha.

    Maintaining the integrity of the Nation? Hell no.
    Our economy is in a remarkably good place and creating jobs at a prodigious rate. That is driving up wages and the standard of living for those on lower incomes in particular. We have the highest vaccine rate of any medium or large country in the world and have ensured future supplies of any boosters etc. There are clear signs of some rebalancing of growth to the regions which is welcome and long overdue. We have remained committed to some much overdue infrastructure spending. We have found new opportunities in foreign trade. I am just back from Tesco's. We are not short of food. Can't even get it all in my fridge.

    Of course some things could be better. But if it really is the economy stupid then the next election is going to be another walk in the park for Boris.
  • pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
    Actually it is for the UK government to decide under the Scotland Act 1998 and Nicola has meekly but correctly accepted she cannot hold a legal indyref2 without UK government approval or declare UDI
    Source?
    I never know whether or not it is worth challenging HYUFD.

    The question that strikes me is this is a political betting website. Yet his persistent creation and repetition of myths even after being challenged - for instance, that only the SNP ('nats') counts when it comes to assessing independence and his persistent refusal to include the Greens - must be distorting the generally accepted understanding.

    In those circumstances the only safe and rational gambling is HYUFD bingo.
    You are talking about a man who invented an “English American Voting Bloc” and insisted that ships could round the Cape (which one?) to avoid the Strait of Hormuz. He just has an unusually rigid way of thinking.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,596
    moonshine said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    I’ve met some extraordinarily capable and sympathetic people that went to Eton. It’s a mystery why we seem to repeatedly get subjected to the dross of their alumni running our lives.
    Because politics doesn't reward capable and sympathetic people?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.

    I haven’t come out in his defence. Politically this is like taking a shotgun and blowing off both feet.

    I stand by my observation that the security services may be concerned by cabinet ministers working from home. (Boris being different as - one assumes - the flat at Downing Street is fairly secure). I don’t know whether the chancellor lives on site but I suspect not.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson has U-turned on self-isolating. Makes Jenrick look silly, who'd just defended the pilot scheme.

    In fairness, making Jenrick look silly is hardly difficult.
    It's why people like Jenrick weren't forced to resign. He's now so pathetically beholden to the PM that he can be asked to suffer any indignity and he will do it.

    The uselessness of the Cabinet is a benefit to Johnson, not a hindrance.
    A benefit to Johnson, but not to the electorate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    moonshine said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    I’ve met some extraordinarily capable and sympathetic people that went to Eton. It’s a mystery why we seem to repeatedly get subjected to the dross of their alumni running our lives.
    Me too.

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Greatest ever Etonian?
    Perhaps. Certainly one of my favourite political writers, up there with Cobbett for instance. But I'll let Stuart reveal the name.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,359

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Well the hard left party would have backed Brexit. And so would whatever new party of the right sprang up. And coalition politics would have meant we ended up with a referendum far sooner than was allowed under FPTP, no matter who was in government. But apart from that, yeah.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,052

    Henry Mance
    @henrymance
    ·
    2h
    why didn’t Matt Hancock just say he was on a pilot scheme?

    That would never have flown.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    edited July 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Henry Mance
    @henrymance
    ·
    2h
    why didn’t Matt Hancock just say he was on a pilot scheme?

    That would never have flown.
    [deleted - too unfortunate]
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,148

    Gadfly said:

    Double vaccinated Gadfly Jnr has been monitoring his progress using LFD tests...



    Do we take that he was actually positive for covid or that it was really a false positive as it turned negative so quickly?
    Tested positive Friday 9th. Confirmed by PCR. Poorly Monday & Tuesday, back to normal Wednesday.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    By focusing so much on the noise we are missing the fact that this is, despite the stupidity and chaos, a more than averagely successful government.

    It really isn't though.

    Successful at winning votes, maybe.

    Feeding it's citizens? Not really.

    Keeping them safe? Nope.

    Educating them? Ha Ha Ha.

    Maintaining the integrity of the Nation? Hell no.
    Our economy is in a remarkably good place and creating jobs at a prodigious rate. That is driving up wages and the standard of living for those on lower incomes in particular. We have the highest vaccine rate of any medium or large country in the world and have ensured future supplies of any boosters etc. There are clear signs of some rebalancing of growth to the regions which is welcome and long overdue. We have remained committed to some much overdue infrastructure spending. We have found new opportunities in foreign trade. I am just back from Tesco's. We are not short of food. Can't even get it all in my fridge.

    Of course some things could be better. But if it really is the economy stupid then the next election is going to be another walk in the park for Boris.
    Real world versus twatter world.

    Though I'm a lot less sanguine about the economy than you are.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Are there any travel restrictions between Reunion and the French mainland? If not then there is a clear, if theoretical, risk of spread
    Somewhat missing the point(s), which are firstly that all these arguments sound like retrospective justification for a decision made on the basis of a misunderstanding of the data, and secondly that there is a theoretical chance of spread from any number of places where there are currently not restrictions. Until there is any evidence at all of abnormal levels of beta variance presence in mainland France the justification for singling it out is pretty weak.

    And I think that France does have rules on their overseas territories anyway.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    ydoethur said:

    Henry Mance
    @henrymance
    ·
    2h
    why didn’t Matt Hancock just say he was on a pilot scheme?

    That would never have flown.
    I don't know, it looked a pretty Kamikaze effort to me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 8,834

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    At GE2015 the Conservatives and UKIP received a combined 49.4% of the vote across the UK. Throw in the pro-Brexit DUP and you get to 50.1% of the vote, just about.

    I'm a big supporter of PR, and maybe it would have changed the nature of British political debate so there would be fewer votes for nationalists of various flavours, but it's a damaging myth on the Left that FPTP is the only thing that stands between them and vanquishing the Right for ever. The arguments have to be won, and for a long time they haven't.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,552
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    franklyn said:

    Whenever I see a post by Malcolmg, I somehow always think of PG Wodehouse's memorable quote “It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.”

    Malc's quite optimistic really. He believes that there is a possibility of things being better, in an independent Scotland not run by the blessed Nicola!
    He also realises there will never be an independent Scotland with the blessed Nicola
    That’s for the Scottish people to decide, not a Tory councillor in southern Englandshire.
    Actually it is for the UK government to decide under the Scotland Act 1998 and Nicola has meekly but correctly accepted she cannot hold a legal indyref2 without UK government approval or declare UDI
    Source?
    I never know whether or not it is worth challenging HYUFD.

    The question that strikes me is this is a political betting website. Yet his persistent creation and repetition of myths even after being challenged - for instance, that only the SNP ('nats') counts when it comes to assessing independence and his persistent refusal to include the Greens - must be distorting the generally accepted understanding.

    In those circumstances the only safe and rational gambling is HYUFD bingo.
    You are talking about a man who invented an “English American Voting Bloc” and insisted that ships could round the Cape (which one?) to avoid the Strait of Hormuz. He just has an unusually rigid way of thinking.
    Broth. Don't forget broth.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    By focusing so much on the noise we are missing the fact that this is, despite the stupidity and chaos, a more than averagely successful government.

    It really isn't though.

    Successful at winning votes, maybe.

    Feeding it's citizens? Not really.

    Keeping them safe? Nope.

    Educating them? Ha Ha Ha.

    Maintaining the integrity of the Nation? Hell no.
    Our economy is in a remarkably good place and creating jobs at a prodigious rate. That is driving up wages and the standard of living for those on lower incomes in particular. We have the highest vaccine rate of any medium or large country in the world and have ensured future supplies of any boosters etc. There are clear signs of some rebalancing of growth to the regions which is welcome and long overdue. We have remained committed to some much overdue infrastructure spending. We have found new opportunities in foreign trade. I am just back from Tesco's. We are not short of food. Can't even get it all in my fridge.

    Of course some things could be better. But if it really is the economy stupid then the next election is going to be another walk in the park for Boris.
    Real world versus twatter world.

    Though I'm a lot less sanguine about the economy than you are.
    I think that the next 4-5 years look quite good. After that the bills will start to come due, not just here but all over the world.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,596

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Assumes rather that the LDs have sufficient leverage to insist upon reform.

    Forgive my cynicism, but I doubt that Labour will back PR on principle - because it has two consequences for them:

    1. The likelihood that they'll never be able to form a majority Government again, but even more critically
    2. The likelihood that they'll split

    The LDs wouldn't have the power in a Hung Parliament to demand PR. They've chosen to cast themselves as a centre-left rather than a centre-right party and thus, especially after the previous experience, they can't get back into bed with the Tories. They can make Labour's life difficult but, because of the inability to switch sides, and also because they can hardly promote electoral reform if they're not willing to work with other parties at all, they're unlikely to bring Labour down - and all involved will know it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,555
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Oh...

    Why does Scotland need a Northern Ireland spokesman?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 8,834
    Charles said:

    Oh...

    Why does Scotland need a Northern Ireland spokesman?
    History and longed-for future history.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    That was 1850s. The French did a lot better. Though the RN did rather better or at least less spectacularly awfully in the Baltic, IIRC.

    There was also the first invasion of Afghanistan ... but that was 1839-42.

    I wondered if Orwell made a slip and meant 75 years after Waterloo but that doesn't sound right either ... and there were other inglorious later incidents such as Isandhlwana, Admiral Tryon's grasp of elementary geometry, and much of the Great War, including Coronel and the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue to keep the brown jobs company. Still, the timijng is odd - 'a century' would be nice and round and do just as well.



  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    Ehh? Sorry, must be dense, but that's a new one to me.
  • pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,258
    edited July 2021

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,555

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
    Apologies. Briefly confused him with Gladstone. Comment in haste...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    One of the interesting things about this affair is that again, PB is prescient.

    There was speculation on here last night that Boris would try to dodge isolation....and lo and behold...

    Seems he dodged long enough to make a dash to Chequers.
    That’s my guess too
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,258
    edited July 2021

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    You've never seen such utter hatred for the Tories as in GE2019, yet the Tories won an 80 seat majority with their highest share of the vote since 1979...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497
    moonshine said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Well the hard left party would have backed Brexit. And so would whatever new party of the right sprang up. And coalition politics would have meant we ended up with a referendum far sooner than was allowed under FPTP, no matter who was in government. But apart from that, yeah.
    Hard left parties often moan about the EU (eg Sweden’s Left Party), but when push comes to shove they always back down. Euro hate is a monopoly of the right.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,294
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Were that the other way, Mons. Macaron would be saying: "That's how they set up their country, they only have themselves to blame. And by the way we may cut the electricity supply."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    edited July 2021

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
    We did discuss the wild deserts of West Lothian recently, in view of the covid-isolation of Embra from the Weegie Lands and how [edit] some folk believed that that undoubtedly explained the (usually!) lower incidence of the pox north of the border. But I don't recall that Tam Dalyell was ever a wanderer in the mould of Thesiger, or scaled the Alps of burnt oil shale with Hillary and Tensing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,059
    edited July 2021

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    Crickey if they weren't such hatred that 80 seat majority would have been how big?

    And easy to forget Tories still on 42-43% in the polls and average ~10% lead....and Labour regularly low 30s which is basically base.

    I find it bemusing, but there you go.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,294
    moonshine said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    I’ve met some extraordinarily capable and sympathetic people that went to Eton. It’s a mystery why we seem to repeatedly get subjected to the dross of their alumni running our lives.
    Oxford University :smile:
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,032
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    You've never seen such utter hatred for the Tories as in GE2019, yet the Tories won an 80 seat majority with their highest share of the vote since 1979...
    In a lot of those seats the Lib Dem vote increase was very large, somewhat mirroring 2017 for the Tories in Labour heartlands. We're now starting to see flips as in Amersham.

    I thought I acknowledged that in my post, there was utter hatred for the Tories, no doubt about that. But Labour was hated more.

    I would be stunned if Guildford, Winchester, Newbury don't all turn next time
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,596
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    The great imponderable in a future General Election: how large a variation from UNS might we see in Lib Dem areas of strength?

    That much said, before we jump the gun and talk about the yellows making significant gains, one would wish to see a more significant and sustained revival of Lib Dem fortunes in the opinion polls, perhaps accompanied by further progress in local elections as we get closer to the next GE. There's a clear signal visible post-Chesham & Amersham, which is a start, but it's hardly a strong one.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,151
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    1854 is the Crimean War, which would an interesting starting point, given its status as a not hugely satisfying victory for Britain
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
    Apologies. Briefly confused him with Gladstone. Comment in haste...
    Any excuse for a bit of ribaldry!

    Gladstone's a good spot, though. (I did check whether you meant him but he wasn't an explorer was he?)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
    They discovered, often the hard way, the merits of the combination of modern rifles and trenches backed up with good artillery.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,258
    pigeon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    The great imponderable in a future General Election: how large a variation from UNS might we see in Lib Dem areas of strength?

    That much said, before we jump the gun and talk about the yellows making significant gains, one would wish to see a more significant and sustained revival of Lib Dem fortunes in the opinion polls, perhaps accompanied by further progress in local elections as we get closer to the next GE. There's a clear signal visible post-Chesham & Amersham, which is a start, but it's hardly a strong one.
    But a 15% swing only adds another 19 seats.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,174
    Unreal.

    The government has rejection a petition against mandatory voter ID, by implying everyone has identification

    Now get this. The govt has just rejected another petition calling for ID for social media, saying ‘3.5 million people do not have a valid photo ID’

    https://mobile.twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1416690797605527554
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,561
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    Don't forget the First Indian War of Independence Great Indian Mutiny!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    Eton didn’t have playing fields at the time Arthur Wellesley was there
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,956
    edited July 2021
    Who could possibly think that the standard of Etonians is going downhill?




  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,555

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
    They discovered, often the hard way, the merits of the combination of modern rifles and trenches backed up with good artillery.
    Anybody who observed any of the American Civil war on the eastern theatre really should not have had to learn that at all. It was the first truly modern war using industrial might to crush the battlefield under sheer weight of arms. The fact that it took 50 years from there to the first deployment of tanks is as good an example of the inherent conservatism of military thinking as I think you can find.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,746
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    You've never seen such utter hatred for the Tories as in GE2019, yet the Tories won an 80 seat majority with their highest share of the vote since 1979...
    Some of us are old enough to remember that the hatred for Thatcher's Tories in the 1980s was more visceral for a significant proportion of the population than any hatred for Boris's Tories. Miners' strikes, inner-city riots, poll tax riots, 3 million unemployed..... The current Tories get off quite lightly by comparison, with very little public disorder.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,501
    I’m sorry but this U-turn is nowhere near enough.

    As we go into tomorrow, much more grip, clarity and leadership is needed if we are to manage the risks.

    Ministers should start NOW and make a clear statement that masks will continue to be mandatory on all public transport.

    https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1416706863954120710


    TfL: “The Government has indicated that we could be part of a trial whereby daily tests would replace the need for self-isolation. We are still waiting for formal notification from them that we are part of this trial”

    Govt had said TfL was covered

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1416721879851618309
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,746

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
    Gosh - what on earth had he been eating?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,059
    edited July 2021

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    You've never seen such utter hatred for the Tories as in GE2019, yet the Tories won an 80 seat majority with their highest share of the vote since 1979...
    Some of us are old enough to remember that the hatred for Thatcher's Tories in the 1980s was more visceral for a significant proportion of the population than any hatred for Boris's Tories. Miners' strikes, inner-city riots, poll tax riots, 3 million unemployed..... The current Tories get off quite lightly by comparison, with very little public disorder.
    And yet they kept winning GEs....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    Charles said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    Eton didn’t have playing fields at the time Arthur Wellesley was there
    They just went down to the riverside in pairs, no?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Blair?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
    They discovered, often the hard way, the merits of the combination of modern rifles and trenches backed up with good artillery.
    Anybody who observed any of the American Civil war on the eastern theatre really should not have had to learn that at all. It was the first truly modern war using industrial might to crush the battlefield under sheer weight of arms. The fact that it took 50 years from there to the first deployment of tanks is as good an example of the inherent conservatism of military thinking as I think you can find.
    TBF they needed decent internal combustion engines. Bullets and boilers don't go toghether. But that would only draw your time lag to what, 20-30 years?

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,746

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Well as a former inhabitant of the Hampshire/Surrey heartlands, I would like to think this analysis was correct. I have never seen so much utter hatred for the Tories as I saw in GE19, I can only think it was Corbyn that meant many did not cross over as they would have done otherwise. I can only think it is worse now.
    You've never seen such utter hatred for the Tories as in GE2019, yet the Tories won an 80 seat majority with their highest share of the vote since 1979...
    Some of us are old enough to remember that the hatred for Thatcher's Tories in the 1980s was more visceral for a significant proportion of the population than any hatred for Boris's Tories. Miners' strikes, inner-city riots, poll tax riots, 3 million unemployed..... The current Tories get off quite lightly by comparison, with very little public disorder.
    And yet they kept winning GEs....
    Well, that was my point really. Doesn't mean the hatred wasn't there though - it was very real.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,533

    moonshine said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Well the hard left party would have backed Brexit. And so would whatever new party of the right sprang up. And coalition politics would have meant we ended up with a referendum far sooner than was allowed under FPTP, no matter who was in government. But apart from that, yeah.
    Hard left parties often moan about the EU (eg Sweden’s Left Party), but when push comes to shove they always back down. Euro hate is a monopoly of the right.
    That depends on the direction of travel in Europe. In the 70s and early 80s the Tories were significantly more pro EEC than either the SNP or Labour. Then the position flipped when Delors emphasised the social dimension of Europe that was to become a key to the self identification of the European Union, and thus guaranteeing left wing support in the U.K. and elsewhere. If that goes then the position may reverse again. There is no guarantee the political direction of the EU will remain as it - if there were such a guarantee it wouldn’t be democratic.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    alex_ said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:
    Yes but technically Reunion where the Beta variant is rampant is still part of France as a French overseas department, it is not an independent country
    Are there any travel restrictions between Reunion and the French mainland? If not then there is a clear, if theoretical, risk of spread
    Somewhat missing the point(s), which are firstly that all these arguments sound like retrospective justification for a decision made on the basis of a misunderstanding of the data, and secondly that there is a theoretical chance of spread from any number of places where there are currently not restrictions. Until there is any evidence at all of abnormal levels of beta variance presence in mainland France the justification for singling it out is pretty weak.

    And I think that France does have rules on their overseas territories anyway.
    I suspect it’s a cockup based on misunderstanding the data TBH
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    Wonder how long it will be before the Govt is criticised for wasting money on vaccines that didn’t deliver...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/ventilator-challenge-to-equip-nhs-for-covid-lost-143m-of-public-money
  • https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1416721879851618309

    They can't help but lie. It is despicable.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,596

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
    I suppose that it's theoretically possible, although a major disruption of the Tory grip on the South would require an earthquake approaching the strength of that which wrecked Scottish Labour in 2015. There are only about twenty Tory-held seats in Southern England available for the LDs to attack where they'd need to overturn majorities of less than ten thousand votes. The party doesn't look nearly strong enough to cause that scale of upset at the moment.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,357

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
    They discovered, often the hard way, the merits of the combination of modern rifles and trenches backed up with good artillery.
    Let us admit it fairly, as a business people should,
    We have had no end of a lesson: it will do us no end of good.

    The Lesson, by Rudyard Kipling (1901)
    https://www.npg.org.uk/whatson/display/2014/no-end-of-a-lesson-the-boer-war-1899-1902
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
    I think he was muddling up Gladstone’s Midlothian campaign with Dayell’s West Lothian Question. Both OEs…
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,686
    alex_ said:

    Wonder how long it will be before the Govt is criticised for wasting money on vaccines that didn’t deliver...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/ventilator-challenge-to-equip-nhs-for-covid-lost-143m-of-public-money

    Well, that's a pathetic story. It is hindsightism of the worst kind.

    Sometimes the government (or any government) cannot win. If they had not done the challenge and ventilators turned out to be scarce, the same idiots would be screeching that the government were incompetently killing people. They make too many, and it's a waste of money.

    It's almost as if they expect the exact number required to have been judged in advance, and that amount ordered.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    Eton didn’t have playing fields at the time Arthur Wellesley was there
    They just went down to the riverside in pairs, no?
    Only if they couldn’t find cox in town
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    If any white person critiquing South African governance is a colonialist oppressor, does that mean only black people are allowed an opinion? How black do they have to be? Perhaps we could put a pencil in their hair, and test it for curliness

    And this must surely apply to white people who praise, say, Nelson Mandela? Isn’t that just patronising colonialism from the other angle?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    In the quest for intrepid Old Etonians I hope no-one will overlook the statesman/explorer who discovered the Midlothian Question.
    West Lothian surely?
    We did discuss the wild deserts of West Lothian recently, in view of the covid-isolation of Embra from the Weegie Lands and how [edit] some folk believed that that undoubtedly explained the (usually!) lower incidence of the pox north of the border. But I don't recall that Tam Dalyell was ever a wanderer in the mould of Thesiger, or scaled the Alps of burnt oil shale with Hillary and Tensing.
    That explorer bit got me too. I don’t think any of the Dalyells were explorers.
  • Leon said:

    If any white person critiquing South African governance is a colonialist oppressor, does that mean only black people are allowed an opinion? How black do they have to be? Perhaps we could put a pencil in their hair, and test it for curliness

    And this must surely apply to white people who praise, say, Nelson Mandela? Isn’t that just patronising colonialism from the other angle?

    That's bait
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,497

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
    Gosh - what on earth had he been eating?
    The meal was poor. Much to our surprise. Usually great little Italian. I think he had the lamb.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,359
    Leon said:

    If any white person critiquing South African governance is a colonialist oppressor, does that mean only black people are allowed an opinion? How black do they have to be? Perhaps we could put a pencil in their hair, and test it for curliness

    And this must surely apply to white people who praise, say, Nelson Mandela? Isn’t that just patronising colonialism from the other angle?

    A mixed race friend of mine who has vivid memories of “traitors to the state” hanging from the lamp posts in her township in the 80s, said under Apartheid she was deemed too dark. But under black economic empowerment she is deemed too light.

    The new South Africa’s biggest mistake by far was continuing to define its society around race. Understandable perhaps but entirely counter productive.

    We are going down the same path here. I hadn’t even noticed that all of England’s penalty missers were black until all the social media drama kicked off.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 23,977
    edited July 2021
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    Eton didn’t have playing fields at the time Arthur Wellesley was there
    They just went down to the riverside in pairs, no?
    Only if they couldn’t find cox in town
    Seriously, though, I was interested to find how much of this public [in the English sense] school sports ethos with the organized games and caps and so on was a mid-C19 construct. IIRC at Shrewsbury in the 1820s Darwin minor went beetle hunting and was all the better for it. No compulsory footie or cricket.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    On the standing of the government I would give them at least a 7. The UK jobs miracle is back in business, the forecasts for growth are strong, vaccines, there are a lot of positives which are reflected in their polling which is immensely strong for a mid term government. We haven't seen the like since the heyday of Tony Blair.

    What I think is different from those times is the manic shrieking of social media and a press absolutely obsessed with clicks competing with itself for the latest gotcha or scream of vituperation. The vast majority of the population simply ignore this noise but it distorts perceptions of how things are going and indeed forecast to go over the next few years.

    Some of the noise is justified of course: Jenrick should not be in office, I don't think Patel should be either, Williamson is a complete clot, it is astonishing (to me) that Cressida Dick is still in office and there is even discussion about a second term. I don't like their attempts to restrain JR or their changes in the laws re immigration but the hysteria against these errors is hyperbolic in the extreme.

    So I would say that they have got the big calls right, they are the usual muddle on the smaller stuff but the noise being generated is extreme and distorting and that they deserve at least a 7. I await the usual brickbats from some of our more excitable contributors.

    I note that RPI inflation has already reached 3.9%.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 29,656
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    And that fairly appalling piece by Revolver is trying to support that situation by insisting that white economic dominance is the price of a successful economy and policies that seek to change that are doomed to failure, all with a deeply undemocratic American slant. Ugh.
    Yes, you must watch for that. The brainworm wriggling in the heads of people who make great play of how shit things are in SA is often, "Blacks just can't run things. They're wild and clueless. They need a strong guiding hand. Can't say that, of course, not these days, you'd be cancelled, but it's true."

    It's not necessarily this going on, I should stress, but be in no doubt that it very often is. See also attitudes to the Palestinians (vs the Israelis). Similar sentiments and (by and large) the same people holding them.

    The colonial mindset. Still there. Still very much there.
    The problem is this: if South Africa had been a great success since 1994, it would have been because black people had done things right. If it isn't a success, it's the fault of white people and their legacy.
    Trite formulation dripping with White Fragility. Correction as below:

    If you have managed to overcome the legacy of white supremacist colonialism, great and well done. If you haven't, not so great and not so well done. But does your failure (thus far) demonstrate the legacy is not real and powerful and toxic? No it doesn't. Of course it doesn't. Quite the opposite.

    So what you say is a problem isn't a problem. The problem (here) is that you think it's a problem. And that's your problem. Yours and all who "think" like you.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,686
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    From one of the greatest Englishmen ever, too. (Had to look it up as I wasn't sure.)
    Chesterton?
    No, though he had a way with words too.
    Orwell. Not entirely clear what particular 75 years he was talking about but it probably has a general application!
    I wondered too.

    1865-1940ish, or at least The Lion and the Unicorn which was published in 1941 (assuming that bit not recycled from earlier).
    Our only major war in the 75 years after Waterloo was the Crimea and it is hard to think of a better example of stunning military incompetence by our ruling classes than that, at least until WW1.
    The Boer War had far more military incompetence than WW1, partly because some lessons were learned.
    Its not a period I have ever studied but my general impression was that we got caught with our pants down at the start but then won with ruthless tactics that included inventing the modern concentration camp. Morally reprehensible but not particularly incompetent. Isn't that where Kitchener made his reputation?
    They discovered, often the hard way, the merits of the combination of modern rifles and trenches backed up with good artillery.
    Anybody who observed any of the American Civil war on the eastern theatre really should not have had to learn that at all. It was the first truly modern war using industrial might to crush the battlefield under sheer weight of arms. The fact that it took 50 years from there to the first deployment of tanks is as good an example of the inherent conservatism of military thinking as I think you can find.
    To be fair, wasn't the issue with tanks the means of propulsion? Because of their weight they need powerful engines, and those were simply not available much before WW1. I think the first tank prototypes were initially based on caterpillar tractors - which themselves were only introduced in the very early 1900s. Even then, the first military tanks were very underpowered and nasty to work in. I don't think they could have been made ten years earlier, yet alone 50.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
    Of course he didn't talk arithmetic, the data doesn't back his rumblings up.

    That's not to say the Conservatives don't have potential problems.

    But just as northern England covers a multitude of different areas and different demographics so does southern England.

    And while the Conservatives might have problems in areas filled with posh remainers, nimbyism and unaffordable housing its a different story in other parts.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    I cannot think of a more politically insane decision in my lifetime than the one Boris has just taken on self-isolation.

    Whoever in the Labour party thought it would be nice to nominate Corbyn when they thought he had no chance and would be a disaster?
    No - the fact that Corbyn ended up having any chance at all is due entirely to the crass stupidity of the Acting Leader - Harriet Harman.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    To be fair to Boris and Rishi they ARE in a pilot program. We all are. It’s called ‘Britain’
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,434

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    Who is advising the Government, their judgment is just dreadful, when will the public give up, it is depressing they are still ahead!

    They're still ahead because they are pitted in an ugly contest against Labour. It doesn't matter how bad one lot are if a sufficient number of voters are afraid that the alternative would be even worse.
    Keir needs to carry on expelling the nutters, then people will see this is a different party
    Blair should have gone for PR when he could, in the early days. By now there’d be three strong and significant parties of the left in England:

    1. Labour, a solidly centre-left, social democratic party in the Nordic fashion
    2. A hard left party, built by former Labourites dissatisfied with centrist Labour
    3. The Greens

    Between them, and with help from the Lib Dems, England could have kept the right wing nutters in check. Brexit wouldn’t have had a look in.
    Hi Stuart, hope you're well.

    This is why I hope the Lib Dems are in a position of power come the next GE, Labour must not be allowed to get away with not implementing PR again
    Yes thank you Mr Battery!

    I’m sitting in my wet swimming shorts on beautifully smooth, warm, pink granite after my dives into the cooling Kattegat off the rocks, and jumps from the 7m diving platform. Summer Bohuslän at its very best.

    I got some inside info during a pleasant meal out last week. Delightful chap living in SW England, but frequently in London and Home Counties on business. He’s convinced the Tory bastions in the south are crumbling and the Lib Dems are going to thrash Johnson in his heartlands. I took it with a pinch of salt, but my dinner companion was very convincing on a wide range of topics, and his anecdata seemed plausible.
    Only problem is this: a 10% swing from Con to LD would net the LDs just 26 Tory seats.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
    He didn’t talk arithmetic, but the rumblings my dining companion was sensing were seismic.
    Of course he didn't talk arithmetic, the data doesn't back his rumblings up.

    That's not to say the Conservatives don't have potential problems.

    But just as northern England covers a multitude of different areas and different demographics so does southern England.

    And while the Conservatives might have problems in areas filled with posh remainers, nimbyism and unaffordable housing its a different story in other parts.
    The Conservative southern base are going through something similar to remainers after the EU referendum. A sudden loss of influence, and difficulty in coming to terms with the fact that they no longer automatically get their own way over everything, as they had become used to over a long period of time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 40,952
    Leon said:

    To be fair to Boris and Rishi they ARE in a pilot program. We all are. It’s called ‘Britain’

    Problem is who’s running it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,052
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Identify that quote

    "Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there. One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class."

    Eton didn’t have playing fields at the time Arthur Wellesley was there
    They just went down to the riverside in pairs, no?
    Only if they couldn’t find cox in town
    One of the great Colemanballs was on the Boat Race:

    ‘And it’s lovely to see the Cambridge skipper’s wife is now kissing the Oxford team’s cox. A display of sportsmanship that should inspire us all.’
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,465
    edited July 2021
    pigeon said:


    I suppose that it's theoretically possible, although a major disruption of the Tory grip on the South would require an earthquake approaching the strength of that which wrecked Scottish Labour in 2015. There are only about twenty Tory-held seats in Southern England available for the LDs to attack where they'd need to overturn majorities of less than ten thousand votes. The party doesn't look nearly strong enough to cause that scale of upset at the moment.

    Let's take a case study - Woking. Last time, the Conservatives got 49% of the vote, the LDs 30% and Labour 16% with the Greens 3% and UKIP 1% (roughly).

    Conservative majority a notch under 10,000 despite a swing of 9.3% to the LDs.

    The LDs have never won Woking - in 1997, the Conservative vote fell below 40% (an Independent Conservative polled nearly 8%). Since then, the best LD performance was 38% in 2010 but the Conservative still polled 50% and the majority was just shy of 7,000.

    The LDs have never polled above 40% in the constituency - Labour polled 24% in 2017 and lost a third of that last time. Their lowest poll was 8% in 2010.

    At the County Council elections in May, the Conservatives won 41% of the vote, the LDs 30%, Labour 11.6% and Independents 10%. The Conservatives won 4 seats, the LDs 2 and the Independents 1.

    It looks a tall order for the LDs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,473
    edited July 2021
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    If any white person critiquing South African governance is a colonialist oppressor, does that mean only black people are allowed an opinion? How black do they have to be? Perhaps we could put a pencil in their hair, and test it for curliness

    And this must surely apply to white people who praise, say, Nelson Mandela? Isn’t that just patronising colonialism from the other angle?

    A mixed race friend of mine who has vivid memories of “traitors to the state” hanging from the lamp posts in her township in the 80s, said under Apartheid she was deemed too dark. But under black economic empowerment she is deemed too light.

    The new South Africa’s biggest mistake by far was continuing to define its society around race. Understandable perhaps but entirely counter productive.

    We are going down the same path here. I hadn’t even noticed that all of England’s penalty missers were black until all the social media drama kicked off.
    Quite. Which is why I mentioned Critical Race Theory. Post apartheid South Africa is a real time laboratory showing how CRT works in action. Answer: it doesn’t

    Worse than that, it guarantees disaster because the Theory can never be wrong - that’s heresy - so if it’s not working it just means you need to apply the Theory more, and harder.

    The parallels with Marxism are striking. In the end Marxism was applied so firmly - in Cambodia - that country ended up killing a third of its own population in scenes of genocidal cruelty
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,052
    justin124 said:


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    1h
    I cannot think of a more politically insane decision in my lifetime than the one Boris has just taken on self-isolation.

    Whoever in the Labour party thought it would be nice to nominate Corbyn when they thought he had no chance and would be a disaster?
    No - the fact that Corbyn ended up having any chance at all is due entirely to the crass stupidity of the Acting Leader - Harriet Harman.
    If he hadn’t been nominated, he couldn’t have won no matter how ineptly Harman was leading the opposition.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,018
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    An absolutely brutal analysis. How an early prototype of Critical Race Theory has destroyed South Africa

    https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

    This is why CRT is do dangerous

    There was a pretty radical racial policy in operation there until the early 90s as I recall. Funny how this article doesn’t mention its legacy as a potential cause.
    It’s 27 years since apartheid. The article mentions it plenty. 27 years is enough time to make life better. Life in SAis getting worse
    Having been to RSA a number of times, though last time was about a decade ago, it is remarkable how little the end of Apartheid made to the peoples of the country. The whites still live in elegant suburbs and the blacks in shanty towns. There are small numbers of black middle class, but for many the end of Apartheid meant little change to their lives.
    And that fairly appalling piece by Revolver is trying to support that situation by insisting that white economic dominance is the price of a successful economy and policies that seek to change that are doomed to failure, all with a deeply undemocratic American slant. Ugh.
    Yes, you must watch for that. The brainworm wriggling in the heads of people who make great play of how shit things are in SA is often, "Blacks just can't run things. They're wild and clueless. They need a strong guiding hand. Can't say that, of course, not these days, you'd be cancelled, but it's true."

    It's not necessarily this going on, I should stress, but be in no doubt that it very often is. See also attitudes to the Palestinians (vs the Israelis). Similar sentiments and (by and large) the same people holding them.

    The colonial mindset. Still there. Still very much there.
    The problem is this: if South Africa had been a great success since 1994, it would have been because black people had done things right. If it isn't a success, it's the fault of white people and their legacy.
    Trite formulation dripping with White Fragility. Correction as below:

    If you have managed to overcome the legacy of white supremacist colonialism, great and well done. If you haven't, not so great and not so well done. But does your failure (thus far) demonstrate the legacy is not real and powerful and toxic? No it doesn't. Of course it doesn't. Quite the opposite.

    So what you say is a problem isn't a problem. The problem (here) is that you think it's a problem. And that's your problem. Yours and all who "think" like you.
    The answer might be they had a bad legacy but still governed badly.

    Perhaps the most disappointing thing is that they had 30+ years of evidence from the rest of Africa of what might or might not work.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,059
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    If any white person critiquing South African governance is a colonialist oppressor, does that mean only black people are allowed an opinion? How black do they have to be? Perhaps we could put a pencil in their hair, and test it for curliness

    And this must surely apply to white people who praise, say, Nelson Mandela? Isn’t that just patronising colonialism from the other angle?

    Anybody using English, is using the language of the colonalist oppessor.....and therefore must now be relegated...The bard...its the bin for you.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9798379/English-operated-language-coloniser-students-told.html
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,885
    Good old Javid. I knew he'd come good.

    Shutting johnson away for 10 days surely makes him a shoo-in for TOTY
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,363
    Charles said:

    Wonderful, just wonderful to see @DavidL and @Charles come out in defence of Boris the ping-dodger.

    Brings a tear to the eye.

    I haven’t come out in his defence. Politically this is like taking a shotgun and blowing off both feet.

    I stand by my observation that the security services may be concerned by cabinet ministers working from home. (Boris being different as - one assumes - the flat at Downing Street is fairly secure). I don’t know whether the chancellor lives on site but I suspect not.
    Our senior diplomats have been working from home, so presumably the security issues are not that great.
This discussion has been closed.