The Romans could cite the Gauls or Etruscans. The Greeks had the Persians. Would France have the Angevins? Hmm.
The Greeks didn't have the Persians because they weren't a nation either before or after Marathon and because they were well defined nation states 100 years before the Persians came along anyway. Aeschylus fought at Marathon and Salamis. The Spartans defended Thermopylae. Neither Aeschylus' tragedies nor the Spartan epitaph are the product of states which have only just acquired an identity.
No, China doesn't do colonies. What it does is the mirror of European extraterritoriality in China in the century 1842-1943. Economic rather than political control.
The Tibetans will be pleased to hear that.
Surprised, but pleased.
Tibet doesn’t exist. There is one China, and that happens to contain the land that formerly constituted “Tibet”.
Oh come on Robert.
Anyone who knows Tibet and the Tibetans knows full well that it exists. It exists culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually and existentially.
Without going all Godwin it's like saying that when the Nazis invaded Poland, Poland ceased to exist.
A people with such an obvious identity are not wiped from existence just because an imperialist force, or a statistician sitting on his MacBook in America, tells them otherwise.
I was being ironic.
The problem is that China’s view is exactly as Robert ironically put it.
I forget the precise geographic feature (it’s part of a plateau I think) but they seem the Himalayas as the natural geographic boundary of China
China believes it has suffered centuries of oppression and exploitation by foreigners.
Just about every move it makes should be seen through that prism. There are no claims on non-Chinese territory as they see it.
It believes Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Spratlys etc are all part of China.
I am sickened by what Xi has done these past years but he is continuing the historical sweep wrt national pride.
An excellent post with which I totally agree. Indeed, I vociferously argue this point with various friends of mine who are Sinophobes.
The British were utterly appalling towards China in general and Hong Kong in particular. Our Opium Wars are an utter, utter, utter, disgrace.
Amongst other things we deliberately made opium addicts of millions of Chinese in order to fund our tea trade. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist. https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842
Disgusting.
So, yes, the Chinese are quite right about that.
The Communist Party in China has used the humiliation of China by the great powers to create a sense of Chinese identity that never previously existed in a country where local and family ties were always what mattered. What we and others did in China and to the Chinese was appalling and sustained, and every one of the one billion plus living in the PRC know it now. I have practical experience of this. I was in Shanghai one early November for a conference and in my suit. It had the poppy I bought in the UK attached to the lapel. I thought absolutely nothing of it. But I kept getting very hostile looks. Eventually, a Chinese delegate approached me and told me of the association with the Opium Wars. Then I understood!
I have a theory that almost every nation which had achieved a sense of national identity has done so through having an oppressor to throw off. Even England was only really forged as a unified concept through the generations which pushed back Danish rule.
I'd have thought the failure to push back Norman rule shortly thereafter was a much bigger factor.
The Norman Yoke.
The belief that we needed to rediscover our Saxon freedoms was a key thread in early English nationalism.
No, China doesn't do colonies. What it does is the mirror of European extraterritoriality in China in the century 1842-1943. Economic rather than political control.
The Tibetans will be pleased to hear that.
Surprised, but pleased.
Tibet doesn’t exist. There is one China, and that happens to contain the land that formerly constituted “Tibet”.
Oh come on Robert.
Anyone who knows Tibet and the Tibetans knows full well that it exists. It exists culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually and existentially.
Without going all Godwin it's like saying that when the Nazis invaded Poland, Poland ceased to exist.
A people with such an obvious identity are not wiped from existence just because an imperialist force, or a statistician sitting on his MacBook in America, tells them otherwise.
I was being ironic.
The problem is that China’s view is exactly as Robert ironically put it.
I forget the precise geographic feature (it’s part of a plateau I think) but they seem the Himalayas as the natural geographic boundary of China
China believes it has suffered centuries of oppression and exploitation by foreigners.
Just about every move it makes should be seen through that prism. There are no claims on non-Chinese territory as they see it.
It believes Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Spratlys etc are all part of China.
I am sickened by what Xi has done these past years but he is continuing the historical sweep wrt national pride.
An excellent post with which I totally agree. Indeed, I vociferously argue this point with various friends of mine who are Sinophobes.
The British were utterly appalling towards China in general and Hong Kong in particular. Our Opium Wars are an utter, utter, utter, disgrace.
Amongst other things we deliberately made opium addicts of millions of Chinese in order to fund our tea trade. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist. https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842
Disgusting.
So, yes, the Chinese are quite right about that.
The Communist Party in China has used the humiliation of China by the great powers to create a sense of Chinese identity that never previously existed in a country where local and family ties were always what mattered. What we and others did in China and to the Chinese was appalling and sustained, and every one of the one billion plus living in the PRC know it now. I have practical experience of this. I was in Shanghai one early November for a conference and in my suit. It had the poppy I bought in the UK attached to the lapel. I thought absolutely nothing of it. But I kept getting very hostile looks. Eventually, a Chinese delegate approached me and told me of the association with the Opium Wars. Then I understood!
“What WE did”.
Um, no. This was 200 years ago. WE didn’t do anything. You’re merely falling for the same propaganda you highlight.
It’s of enormous concern to me how even now after everything, this government can flippantly allow the sale of a semi conductor producer to China. When will they wake up? It’s embarrassing at this point.
The Boxer Rebellion did not happen 200 years ago and was very much part of the Chinese backlash against Great Power humiliation. I am perfectly capable of distinguishing between the actions of the UK in the past and the UK now, and have not fallen for any propaganda. I also understand that countries are viewed in the round - as a sum of their past and present, and how the two interact.
But it's all crap. France was treated pretty badly by Germany not very long ago but everyone would look poorly on France using that as an excuse to do terrible things, especially to those other than Germany.
The Chinese government using late 19th and early 20th century events as a justification for its own behaviour is absolute tosh and none of us should give it the slightest consideration. Recognition that China was treated appallingly doesn't impact that.
Understanding something is not excusing it.
No but once the “understanding” part is allowed to become front and centre of the debate it becomes easy for the regime to exploit it for their own ends. It’s the old “useful idiots” problem, even when the “idiots” aren’t actually idiots. The lines between “explanation” and “justification” can appear to become very blurred.
One can understand why internal opponents of a regime can become very frustrated when undermined by people from outside spending large amounts of time apparently parroting regime propaganda. And often going out of their way to point out how apparently popular the regimes are (if they get 97% support in “elections” they must have at least 70% support, right?). And yet when these “popular” regimes fall it’s amazing how rapidly this seems to become a complete mirage (even if subsequently something of a nostalgia for the certainty of “the good old days” often grows...)
No, China doesn't do colonies. What it does is the mirror of European extraterritoriality in China in the century 1842-1943. Economic rather than political control.
The Tibetans will be pleased to hear that.
Surprised, but pleased.
Tibet doesn’t exist. There is one China, and that happens to contain the land that formerly constituted “Tibet”.
Oh come on Robert.
Anyone who knows Tibet and the Tibetans knows full well that it exists. It exists culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually and existentially.
Without going all Godwin it's like saying that when the Nazis invaded Poland, Poland ceased to exist.
A people with such an obvious identity are not wiped from existence just because an imperialist force, or a statistician sitting on his MacBook in America, tells them otherwise.
I was being ironic.
The problem is that China’s view is exactly as Robert ironically put it.
I forget the precise geographic feature (it’s part of a plateau I think) but they seem the Himalayas as the natural geographic boundary of China
China believes it has suffered centuries of oppression and exploitation by foreigners.
Just about every move it makes should be seen through that prism. There are no claims on non-Chinese territory as they see it.
It believes Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Spratlys etc are all part of China.
I am sickened by what Xi has done these past years but he is continuing the historical sweep wrt national pride.
An excellent post with which I totally agree. Indeed, I vociferously argue this point with various friends of mine who are Sinophobes.
The British were utterly appalling towards China in general and Hong Kong in particular. Our Opium Wars are an utter, utter, utter, disgrace.
Amongst other things we deliberately made opium addicts of millions of Chinese in order to fund our tea trade. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist. https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842
Disgusting.
So, yes, the Chinese are quite right about that.
What we and others did in China and to the Chinese was appalling and sustained, and every one of the one billion plus living in the PRC know it now.
What about what China are doing to the Chinese, and particularly the non-ethnic Chinese, now?
Those Chinese not under the yoke of the CCP in Taiwan and Hong Kong, although sadly diminishing by the day, have no desire to go back.
I know. But to understand the PRC you have to understand the Communist party and how it has used the past to forge a sense of Chinese nationhood that never previously existed. Whether we like it or not, the actions of our forefathers have helped in that.
Is this true though?
The Chinese empire under various dynasties has existed as a strong union for centuries, millennia even.
There was a particular problem as one old dynasty dissolved in the early 19th century, followed by a protracted civil war and then it disintegrated into competing warlord fiefdoms - which was only really resolved once the CCP won the post WW2 civil war - but the roots of the Chinese nation and its identity go back a very very long time.
Mr. Royale, aye. The Qin Dynasty is often seen as founding China proper, and the succeeding Han Dynasty lasted four centuries and gave the Chinese (majority) their ethnic name.
No, China doesn't do colonies. What it does is the mirror of European extraterritoriality in China in the century 1842-1943. Economic rather than political control.
The Tibetans will be pleased to hear that.
Surprised, but pleased.
Tibet doesn’t exist. There is one China, and that happens to contain the land that formerly constituted “Tibet”.
Oh come on Robert.
Anyone who knows Tibet and the Tibetans knows full well that it exists. It exists culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually and existentially.
Without going all Godwin it's like saying that when the Nazis invaded Poland, Poland ceased to exist.
A people with such an obvious identity are not wiped from existence just because an imperialist force, or a statistician sitting on his MacBook in America, tells them otherwise.
I was being ironic.
The problem is that China’s view is exactly as Robert ironically put it.
I forget the precise geographic feature (it’s part of a plateau I think) but they seem the Himalayas as the natural geographic boundary of China
China believes it has suffered centuries of oppression and exploitation by foreigners.
Just about every move it makes should be seen through that prism. There are no claims on non-Chinese territory as they see it.
It believes Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Spratlys etc are all part of China.
I am sickened by what Xi has done these past years but he is continuing the historical sweep wrt national pride.
An excellent post with which I totally agree. Indeed, I vociferously argue this point with various friends of mine who are Sinophobes.
The British were utterly appalling towards China in general and Hong Kong in particular. Our Opium Wars are an utter, utter, utter, disgrace.
Amongst other things we deliberately made opium addicts of millions of Chinese in order to fund our tea trade. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist. https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842
Disgusting.
So, yes, the Chinese are quite right about that.
The Communist Party in China has used the humiliation of China by the great powers to create a sense of Chinese identity that never previously existed in a country where local and family ties were always what mattered. What we and others did in China and to the Chinese was appalling and sustained, and every one of the one billion plus living in the PRC know it now. I have practical experience of this. I was in Shanghai one early November for a conference and in my suit. It had the poppy I bought in the UK attached to the lapel. I thought absolutely nothing of it. But I kept getting very hostile looks. Eventually, a Chinese delegate approached me and told me of the association with the Opium Wars. Then I understood!
I have a theory that almost every nation which had achieved a sense of national identity has done so through having an oppressor to throw off. Even England was only really forged as a unified concept through the generations which pushed back Danish rule.
Yes, war is a defining feature of nationalism. In order to infuse a people with a sense of "the other" and to bind them to the nation, war serves a purpose.
Strictly speaking, nationalism simply means that you think the basic political construct of human society should be nation states - not multi-nationality empires, unions and autocracies etc. And that's exactly how the United *Nations* is constituted today. So there's nothing intrinsically objectionable about it.
Basically, fascism - and particularly Nazism - has tarnished the term because it was practising an extreme form of nationalism as you describe, whereas most simply want independence from the yoke of their oppressor as they would see it.
Its a good job half of Europe won't be heading to the likes of Spain, Portugal and Greece for their summer holidays....
Once Delta is seeded (as it is in Europe), then the extra mingling will likely have relatively little effect.
Simply: a Germany will be generating 10,000 cases a day from Delta irrespective in three or four weeks. That's 70,000/week. Even if 2,000 people came back from Spain every week with infections (and bear in mind that EU air travel is still down 80% from prepandemic levels), it'd be a pimple on growth.
Schools are the biggest delta for the spread of Delta - and both the EU and the US are lucky that they are shut for the summer holidays. The EU doubly-so, because it enables them to catch up in the vaccine stakes.
Nope. It’s absolutely insane. Makes absolutely no sense. They have a ban on us to stop us bringing and spreading Covid.But as soon as we switch to a policy everyone in UK must have COVID and be a spreader, this is the moment the EU open their arms to us? That makes no sense at all.
Based on the announcements from UK this week, EU should be further from opening to us, not closer.
The EU countries are giving up on travel bans because (1) many of them are desperate to have British tourists back and (2) they plan to follow more-or-less exactly the same path as us on Covid.
The restrictions cause massive harm and everybody is completely fed-up with them. These conditions aren't unique to the UK. See, for example, this report:
Germany should lift all remaining coronavirus-linked social and economic curbs as soon as everyone has been offered a vaccine, foreign minister Heiko Maas was quoted as saying this morning, suggesting that point should be reached next month.
Around 56.5% of people in Germany have received at least one dose and almost 39% are fully vaccinated, according to health ministry data.
“When everyone in Germany has received a vaccine offer, there is no longer a legal or political justification for any kind of restriction,” Maas told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung. That should occur sometime during August, he added.
Chancellor Angela Merkel has previously said she wants to offer everyone in Germany a vaccine by 21 September.
Caroline Copley reports for Reuters that in January Maas was the first German government minister to call for restrictions to be eased for vaccinated people and suggested they should be allowed to visit the cinema or eat in restaurants. Other ministers opposed special exemptions for the vaccinated.
There is a tremendous imperative to get rid of the rules and, as Chris Whitty has explained, the best time to do it is during the Summer, when the exit wave won't run smack into the flu season. And if various EU states are only a few weeks behind us with vaccinations - and are already heavily seeded with Delta in any event - then there's very little point in persisting with controls on inbound UK travellers. It is no wonder that they are starting to give up.
You are wrong on the basis you are thinking too binary. Restrictions on or all off. Too binary in this situation.
Comments
The belief that we needed to rediscover our Saxon freedoms was a key thread in early English nationalism.
Perhaps one needs to be over 40 to do cryptic crosswords.
Also, nation states are a more modern concept. Rome was a city state for a long time.
The fact the Greeks differentiated between foreigners from another Greek city (xenos) and one from another land (barbaros) is quite interesting.
One can understand why internal opponents of a regime can become very frustrated when undermined by people from outside spending large amounts of time apparently parroting regime propaganda. And often going out of their way to point out how apparently popular the regimes are (if they get 97% support in “elections” they must have at least 70% support, right?). And yet when these “popular” regimes fall it’s amazing how rapidly this seems to become a complete mirage (even if subsequently something of a nostalgia for the certainty of “the good old days” often grows...)
The Chinese empire under various dynasties has existed as a strong union for centuries, millennia even.
There was a particular problem as one old dynasty dissolved in the early 19th century, followed by a protracted civil war and then it disintegrated into competing warlord fiefdoms - which was only really resolved once the CCP won the post WW2 civil war - but the roots of the Chinese nation and its identity go back a very very long time.
Basically, fascism - and particularly Nazism - has tarnished the term because it was practising an extreme form of nationalism as you describe, whereas most simply want independence from the yoke of their oppressor as they would see it.