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What happened in Batley and Spen at the May 2019 Euro elections – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited June 2021 in General
imageWhat happened in Batley and Spen at the May 2019 Euro elections – politicalbetting.com

The big news on the eve of the by-election is that LAB figures are saying they only have a 5-10% chance of holding the seat. This looks like a classic case of expectation management to deflect some of the negatives of a possible loss. This “revelation” might also be part of an effort to get out the vote tomorrow.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    edited June 2021
    I love it when PB thread writers use the word modest/modesty in thread headers.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,909
    Regarding today's numbers, what do people think the chances are of hospitalisations starting to actually fall fairly soon? The growth rate has dropped like a stone in recent weeks...
  • Options
    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Given the current Covid situation I have been trying to compare now against previous waves and have put together the below chart.



    It plots 7-day rolling Cases, Admissions and Deaths on a Base-2 log scale. It is intended to make all 3 measures comparable more easily.

    What is clear is that the rate of increase of admissions is significantly less than it was in the last wave (angle of grey lines). Also when we reached 16K daily cases in the last wave, there were twice as many hospitalisations and deaths were over 4 times bigger (vertical black lines are comparisons).

    Hospitalisations are also looking like they may be slowing their rate of increase and deaths remain very low. Another week's worth of data should hopefully show conclusively where we are. At the moment though I think it looks very positive that the link between cases->admissions->deaths has been substantially reduced. Cases in my view is no longer the key metric.

    Should we stop reporting cases? If we just showed the number of hospitalisations and deaths each day then I think people would be much more relaxed. However, it is still very useful data and I support open access to this sort of data.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,174

    Regarding today's numbers, what do people think the chances are of hospitalisations starting to actually fall fairly soon? The growth rate has dropped like a stone in recent weeks...

    Not sure they will drop just yet with cases up to 26,000 today and potential for further increases shortly...
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    FPT.
    For @noneoftheabove re ages at which children should get a say in whether they have the vaccine or not.
    Here is a basic guide to Gillick Competence, which has been established in law since the 80's.

    https://www.themedicportal.com/blog/gillick-competence-and-fraser-guidelines/

    There really is no hard and fast threshold. But a professional would need to evidence that they have asked suitable questions and evaluated the responses carefully and critically.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987
    edited June 2021
    ..
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,177
    I expect Labour to lose. I hope they do not lose to George Galloway.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    Regarding today's numbers, what do people think the chances are of hospitalisations starting to actually fall fairly soon? The growth rate has dropped like a stone in recent weeks...

    I make the current R on hospital admissions to be 1.06. As you say it has been dropping quite sharply and may go below 1 soon.

    Cases, on the other hand, at 26K today are growing with an R of 1.7 i.e. doubling every 9 days.

    There seems to be a complete disconnect between cases and admissions to hospital.

    I reckon that this disease is now going to rip through the population causing relatively few hospitalisations and deaths and burn itself out in short order. Over by September.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    FPT
    Pulpstar said:

    26,068 cases...Boris is going to shit his pants come the decision on Freedom day when cases are 50k.

    Dingwall would rather we didn't mention case numbers or something.
    The last date we have rolling 7 day figures for cases by date reportted is June 27th when the average was 19,296 compared to 11,354 on June 20th.

    Since June 27th the figures reported are 20,479 and 26,068 so numbers are still rising quickly. For reference last Wednesday the figure was 14,065.

    So I can see why some people may want the figures to no longer be so regularly published as the trend for cases really doesn't look good at the moment.

    Thankfully hospital and death figures look a lot healthy....
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,398
    FPT
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is this strange idea that asking the young to make sacrifices for the old in time of crisis is somehow unusual.

    Ladies and gentlemen, can I bring to your attention conscription? That is, forcing the young to take time out from education and life, to get trained as a soldier and to go into battle for theit country, so an external menace can be defeated.

    It seems to me that CV19 is not a million miles different to a war. A pathogen has come to disrupt our lived and potentially to kill and to injure, and to affect our way of life.

    A small number of people (might) bear a slightly higher risk from vaccination than they would do from the disease. But in return everyone benefits from stamping out the disease completely.

    We all agree conscription is necessary under certain circumstances, why should it not be the same with vaccination?

    The comparison is even closer. Being a guinea pig was a recognised role for conscientious objectors to conscription, of course. And I don't mean the Mengele kind of guinea pig.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16510534/
    Crikey! Scientists back then had all the fun :hushed: That's both apalling and very interesting in the things that were learned. Fascinating that the author was involved as a scientist and that one (at least) of the 'volunteers' went into science afterwards. I also like the desert-dry reference to the Declaration of Helsinki preventing similar studies in future - I can't work out whether the author sees that as a bad or a good thing.

    These seem direct links to the full paper:
    https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/35/3/556/735661
    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyl020

  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    I expect Labour to lose. I hope they do not lose to George Galloway.

    Ladbrokes have now got Labour beating GG at 1/8.
    I got on at 4/15 (boosted). I expect to win my £100 bet. Hat tip to NP.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    FPT
    DecrepiterJohnL said:
    » show previous quotes
    Now there's a case that would have @DavidL off his death bed and back into court. Your Honour, the prosecution contends it is an official secret that Boris is "unfit" to be Prime Minister and that Matt Hancock is "fucking hopeless".

    I said:
    Unfortunately I have not been offered the gig. It does seem to me that Cummings has taken pictures of lots of things that should at least be confidential and quite possibly a good deal more secret than that. It really is inconceivable that someone in such a position will not have a confidential information provision in his contract. This really shouldn't be that difficult in law. The court of public opinion is, of course, another matter.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    FPT:
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar the absolute clusterfuck that is the Dem NYC Mayor Primary

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1410242552985497600

    New York is the pits when it comes to running elections. Because it's so heavily Democrat noone cares come Presidential time.
    Most of the NYC Board of Elections are Democratic placeholders. I doubt that helps much. NYS has historically been rather conservative with its election law and procedures. Pre-COVID we didn't even have no-excuse absentee ballots or early voting. We have both now, but maybe those innovations should have been allowed to bed in for a few cycles before trying RCV.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    "extremely boring optics question but why no NHS badge, much beloved by Hancock, for Sajid Javid?"
    https://twitter.com/Direthoughts/status/1410193385747619849?s=20

    It’s not about badges, but delivering for the NHS.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1410261046309359621?s=20
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,865
    DavidL said:

    Unfortunately I have not been offered the gig. It does seem to me that Cummings has taken pictures of lots of things that should at least be confidential and quite possibly a good deal more secret than that. It really is inconceivable that someone in such a position will not have a confidential information provision in his contract. This really shouldn't be that difficult in law. The court of public opinion is, of course, another matter.


    But officials are worried about a backlash:

    "We could bring the force of the state down to bear on him, but where could that lead? There is a strong body of thought that he would like to be in court and could reveal a load more damaging stuff under oath"


    https://www.ft.com/content/cbf42278-1a75-4acf-b5a7-788511754428
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Depends - are they not primarily 'ripping through' the unvaccinated who are making zero effort re precautions?. In Spain the current spike in cases is almost entirely due to 'end of school/university course events' in the Balearics. I'm sure it is more infectious but irresponsible behaviour may well be a contributing factor here.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,130
    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Not really when you consider who it is ripping through - largely kids still in school and the socially active 18-25 year olds, who for the most part are unvaccinated or at best recently jabbed. We are no longer in lockdown so a lot of mixing is going on.
    Not a terrible thing to tbh - every case in the young is another that will have some immunity going forward.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    While Delta is becoming more of a concern here in the US, it's notable that in excess of 99% of recent cases and deaths in the US have been among non-vaccinated people. Everyone 12 and above can get the vaccine here.

    Los Angeles County in California has just asked people to resume wearing masks indoors, vaccinated or not, but for now, it more or less feels over in places like NYS where we have a very high vaccination percentage.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,291
    I'm sorry but there is the reek of political death around Sir Keir. Even the normally equanimous Rafael Behr at the Guardian was putting the boot in.

    The dots are not easily joined, except as a sequence of Labour excuses, which is not the traditional prelude to general election triumph. MPs and activists report deep malaise. The party brand is broken, they say. Voters are either unable to say what Labour stands for or are persuaded it stands for people not like them. [...] Starmer is not the cause of those problems, but there is a vagueness about him that doesn’t help. The dominance of pandemic news explains why the opposition leader has not been heard, but not why he has so little to say. There have been speeches that no one hears, but those of us who do seek them out for clues about Labour’s direction are not better informed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/29/labour-keir-starmer-party-unity

    I do not stir.
    The frost makes a flower,
    The dew makes a star,
    The dead bell,
    The dead bell.

    Somebody's done for.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,909

    Regarding today's numbers, what do people think the chances are of hospitalisations starting to actually fall fairly soon? The growth rate has dropped like a stone in recent weeks...

    Not sure they will drop just yet with cases up to 26,000 today and potential for further increases shortly...
    We’ll see - the drop in growth rate is rather sharp. It’s possible that we might actually see a (temporary?) drop in hospitalisations in the next few days.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,504
    If we are having at least 25k people coming down with this disease daily and probably closer to 50k already assuming lots of people not being picked up, then that in itself must be adding quite rapidly to herd immunity in the unvaxxed population. Not as quickly yet as vaccinations themselves, but 50k per day is 350k per week. If cases continue to rise at the current pace then we could conceivably be adding up to a million cases per day by mid July.

    A million cases per day just doesn't seem mathematically possible given the level of existing vaccine coverage, the ever increasing immunity levels from 1st and 2nd vaccinations 2 or 3 weeks ago, and the known efficacy of those vaccines. Quite simply the current epidemic has to slow down or go into reverse soon or otherwise what we thought we knew about vaccine-induced immunity is wrong.

    I think there is much more social mixing now than a month ago. Anecdotally I think most of us have a sensed a shift as most people feel safer and more confident having been double-jabbed themselves. Social distancing is breaking down terminally and there is a football championship on. I do wonder quite how much more opening up there is to do on the 19th July. It's basically clubs and weddings. So a small increment in super-spreading events but probably among those who are already partying and catching the thing.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    edited June 2021
    This is the only issue on the horizon.

    The supply from Pfizer and Moderna is now the main limiting factor in the coronavirus vaccine programme, analysts say, preventing a reduction in the eight-week interval between doses as the race against the Delta variant continues.

    The government was advised last month under-40s should be offered an alternative to the Oxford-AstraZeneca jab because of a small risk of blood clots, given the low prevalence of the virus and the availability of other shots.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/not-enough-pfizer-and-moderna-doses-to-vaccinate-against-covid-faster-rp8jpf0fs
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,918
    Selebian said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is this strange idea that asking the young to make sacrifices for the old in time of crisis is somehow unusual.

    Ladies and gentlemen, can I bring to your attention conscription? That is, forcing the young to take time out from education and life, to get trained as a soldier and to go into battle for theit country, so an external menace can be defeated.

    It seems to me that CV19 is not a million miles different to a war. A pathogen has come to disrupt our lived and potentially to kill and to injure, and to affect our way of life.

    A small number of people (might) bear a slightly higher risk from vaccination than they would do from the disease. But in return everyone benefits from stamping out the disease completely.

    We all agree conscription is necessary under certain circumstances, why should it not be the same with vaccination?

    The comparison is even closer. Being a guinea pig was a recognised role for conscientious objectors to conscription, of course. And I don't mean the Mengele kind of guinea pig.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16510534/
    Crikey! Scientists back then had all the fun :hushed: That's both apalling and very interesting in the things that were learned. Fascinating that the author was involved as a scientist and that one (at least) of the 'volunteers' went into science afterwards. I also like the desert-dry reference to the Declaration of Helsinki preventing similar studies in future - I can't work out whether the author sees that as a bad or a good thing.

    These seem direct links to the full paper:
    https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/35/3/556/735661
    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyl020

    I was fortunate enough to have a brilliant surgeon for my youthful health problems. He was at the end of a long and successful career, but I was surprised to discover that, in the 1950s, he had done experiments on volunteer servicemen. The tests were to examine heat effects and would, to modern eyes, not be allowed. He was fairly frank about it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Agreed. Given more than half our country is double vaxxed, when it is supposed to be much more difficult, if not impossible, to catch the virus it is just astonishing the rate at which it is managing to spread.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    TimS said:

    If we are having at least 25k people coming down with this disease daily and probably closer to 50k already assuming lots of people not being picked up, then that in itself must be adding quite rapidly to herd immunity in the unvaxxed population. Not as quickly yet as vaccinations themselves, but 50k per day is 350k per week. If cases continue to rise at the current pace then we could conceivably be adding up to a million cases per day by mid July.

    A million cases per day just doesn't seem mathematically possible given the level of existing vaccine coverage, the ever increasing immunity levels from 1st and 2nd vaccinations 2 or 3 weeks ago, and the known efficacy of those vaccines. Quite simply the current epidemic has to slow down or go into reverse soon or otherwise what we thought we knew about vaccine-induced immunity is wrong.

    I think there is much more social mixing now than a month ago. Anecdotally I think most of us have a sensed a shift as most people feel safer and more confident having been double-jabbed themselves. Social distancing is breaking down terminally and there is a football championship on. I do wonder quite how much more opening up there is to do on the 19th July. It's basically clubs and weddings. So a small increment in super-spreading events but probably among those who are already partying and catching the thing.

    Given the level of testing done now and also having a look at the Zoe App numbers (who have consistently shown significantly higher estimates than the official case numbers so far), I don't think its as large as 50k a day.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,779

    I'm sorry but there is the reek of political death around Sir Keir. Even the normally equanimous Rafael Behr at the Guardian was putting the boot in.

    The dots are not easily joined, except as a sequence of Labour excuses, which is not the traditional prelude to general election triumph. MPs and activists report deep malaise. The party brand is broken, they say. Voters are either unable to say what Labour stands for or are persuaded it stands for people not like them. [...] Starmer is not the cause of those problems, but there is a vagueness about him that doesn’t help. The dominance of pandemic news explains why the opposition leader has not been heard, but not why he has so little to say. There have been speeches that no one hears, but those of us who do seek them out for clues about Labour’s direction are not better informed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/29/labour-keir-starmer-party-unity

    I do not stir.
    The frost makes a flower,
    The dew makes a star,
    The dead bell,
    The dead bell.

    Somebody's done for.

    But whom do they turn to? The only decent people have been branded "Blairites" (Cooper, Benn et al), so who? Angela Rayner? She is so lightweight she makes Bozo look like a serious international statesman. Our political system is doomed. Doomed I tell you!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    This is the only issue on the horizon.

    The supply from Pfizer and Moderna is now the main limiting factor in the coronavirus vaccine programme, analysts say, preventing a reduction in the eight-week interval between doses as the race against the Delta variant continues.

    The government was advised last month under-40s should be offered an alternative to the Oxford-AstraZeneca jab because of a small risk of blood clots, given the low prevalence of the virus and the availability of other shots.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/not-enough-pfizer-and-moderna-doses-to-vaccinate-against-covid-faster-rp8jpf0fs

    Some of us on here were saying this.....poor Sid in the warehouse, he is now having to resort to dumping AZN in the freezers in his local Iceland as he has run out of room at the warehouse, his home, his neighbours homes...
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,504

    TimS said:

    If we are having at least 25k people coming down with this disease daily and probably closer to 50k already assuming lots of people not being picked up, then that in itself must be adding quite rapidly to herd immunity in the unvaxxed population. Not as quickly yet as vaccinations themselves, but 50k per day is 350k per week. If cases continue to rise at the current pace then we could conceivably be adding up to a million cases per day by mid July.

    A million cases per day just doesn't seem mathematically possible given the level of existing vaccine coverage, the ever increasing immunity levels from 1st and 2nd vaccinations 2 or 3 weeks ago, and the known efficacy of those vaccines. Quite simply the current epidemic has to slow down or go into reverse soon or otherwise what we thought we knew about vaccine-induced immunity is wrong.

    I think there is much more social mixing now than a month ago. Anecdotally I think most of us have a sensed a shift as most people feel safer and more confident having been double-jabbed themselves. Social distancing is breaking down terminally and there is a football championship on. I do wonder quite how much more opening up there is to do on the 19th July. It's basically clubs and weddings. So a small increment in super-spreading events but probably among those who are already partying and catching the thing.

    Given the level of testing done now and also having a look at the Zoe App numbers (who have consistently shown significantly higher estimates than the official case numbers so far), I don't think its as large as 50k.
    Zoe only monitors symptomatic infection. Its number is now around the same as the reported positivity. Unless asymptomatic infections are suddenly much less common than they were before, then either the real rate is closer to twice the symptomatic rate or Zoe's algorithm has gone wrong.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,802
    LAST WEEK'S FORRCAST:

    OK, next few weeks forecasts on COVID:

    Current weekly rough figures 22/6:
    Cases, 70k +35%
    Hospitals: 1.5k +35%
    Death: 100 +45%

    Factors next week:
    - Base week will have been slightly cooler
    - Increasing rates are widespread throughout much of non-peninsular England and the central belt, suggesting close to the inflection point (i.e. areas near and beyond peak balancing new areas starting their Delta wave)
    - Acceleration of localised university outbreaks, pushing some cities higher
    By 29/6:
    Cases: +40%, 110k per week
    Hospitals +20% 1.8k
    Deaths, +20%, 120

    HOW I DID:
    Low on cases, but slightly over on Hospitalisations and deaths. Scotland is a major part of the difference.

    CHANGE TO PREDICTION:


    Factors in early July:
    - Beyond the inflection in England and Scotland, cases slowing and a lot of localities topping out at 100-150 cases per 100k, plus more places dropping
    - Some football driven outbreaks (* football travel is a bigger factor than I allowed)
    - University at inflection and terms just starting to come to an end
    - Base week (now) cooler
    By 6/7
    Cases +20%, 130k (NOW +30%, 170k)
    Hospitals, +20%, 2.2k (OK, I'LL STICK WITH THE REST - predict slightly higher increases from lower current base)
    Deaths. +5%, 125

    Factors in mid July:
    - Over the community and university peaks
    - Some football outbreaks (NOT GOING TO ADJUST YET)
    - Base week OK weather wise
    By 13/7:
    Cases: level or slightly down 125k (160k)
    Hospitals, level or slightly up, 2.2k (STICK)
    Deaths, +10%, 140
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Unfortunately I have not been offered the gig. It does seem to me that Cummings has taken pictures of lots of things that should at least be confidential and quite possibly a good deal more secret than that. It really is inconceivable that someone in such a position will not have a confidential information provision in his contract. This really shouldn't be that difficult in law. The court of public opinion is, of course, another matter.


    But officials are worried about a backlash:

    "We could bring the force of the state down to bear on him, but where could that lead? There is a strong body of thought that he would like to be in court and could reveal a load more damaging stuff under oath"


    https://www.ft.com/content/cbf42278-1a75-4acf-b5a7-788511754428
    But an injunction will stop him simply distributing more material every time he feels like making trouble. I would go for it.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848
    edited June 2021
    felix said:

    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Depends - are they not primarily 'ripping through' the unvaccinated who are making zero effort re precautions?. In Spain the current spike in cases is almost entirely due to 'end of school/university course events' in the Balearics. I'm sure it is more infectious but irresponsible behaviour may well be a contributing factor here.
    Haven’t a couple of people on here, been going on about the Balearics for weeks now?

    Well, cases there just doubled in ten days. Another couple of weeks of the same, and they’ll be up to the same rate as the UK.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/covid-vaccine-passport-nhs-app-eu-travel-rome-italy/

    Because what else was going to happen,when you put all the unvaccinated youth of the whole of Europe, on a few small islands with 10,000 capacity nightclubs?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,470
    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Would it be correct to say that if the original variant had spread through the population without being impeded, this variant would probably never have arisen?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    Yes, fully agreed,

    And I will say my sound bight again while we are at it, we should fully open up. and now not wait till the 19th July
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    tlg86 said:

    PM in response to SKS's question

    "What would you say to Ollies family, who i spoke to this morning, a family who lost a son on Friday and who wasnt allowed access to say goodbye under the rules and who were furious with Hancocks rule breaking compared to their sticking to the rules"


    Unbelievable response from PM said it was "a Westminster bubble story"


    FFS what a cloth eared twat

    Sorry, but it’s Starmer who is in the wrong. If he opposed the rule that doesn’t allow any visits to hospitals, then he should say so and ask the PM about it in its own right.

    But I suspect Starmer does support that rule. So instead he uses the distress and heartbreak of that family to score a political point.
    Sounds like a good PMQ question then.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,174

    Regarding today's numbers, what do people think the chances are of hospitalisations starting to actually fall fairly soon? The growth rate has dropped like a stone in recent weeks...

    Not sure they will drop just yet with cases up to 26,000 today and potential for further increases shortly...
    We’ll see - the drop in growth rate is rather sharp. It’s possible that we might actually see a (temporary?) drop in hospitalisations in the next few days.
    Let's hope so!

    As you know I have taken a cautious tone on COVID on here but I think - unless hospitalisations and deaths go up significantly - that Boris will go ahead with 19 July 'Terminus Day'.

    The emphasis will be more on taking personal responsibility taking into account one's risk and vaccination status.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Would it be correct to say that if the original variant had spread through the population without being impeded, this variant would probably never have arisen?
    The more hosts there are, the more chances of mutation. So I think it's unlikely that there would have been fewer variants.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378

    Selebian said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is this strange idea that asking the young to make sacrifices for the old in time of crisis is somehow unusual.

    Ladies and gentlemen, can I bring to your attention conscription? That is, forcing the young to take time out from education and life, to get trained as a soldier and to go into battle for theit country, so an external menace can be defeated.

    It seems to me that CV19 is not a million miles different to a war. A pathogen has come to disrupt our lived and potentially to kill and to injure, and to affect our way of life.

    A small number of people (might) bear a slightly higher risk from vaccination than they would do from the disease. But in return everyone benefits from stamping out the disease completely.

    We all agree conscription is necessary under certain circumstances, why should it not be the same with vaccination?

    The comparison is even closer. Being a guinea pig was a recognised role for conscientious objectors to conscription, of course. And I don't mean the Mengele kind of guinea pig.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16510534/
    Crikey! Scientists back then had all the fun :hushed: That's both apalling and very interesting in the things that were learned. Fascinating that the author was involved as a scientist and that one (at least) of the 'volunteers' went into science afterwards. I also like the desert-dry reference to the Declaration of Helsinki preventing similar studies in future - I can't work out whether the author sees that as a bad or a good thing.

    These seem direct links to the full paper:
    https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/35/3/556/735661
    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyl020

    I was fortunate enough to have a brilliant surgeon for my youthful health problems. He was at the end of a long and successful career, but I was surprised to discover that, in the 1950s, he had done experiments on volunteer servicemen. The tests were to examine heat effects and would, to modern eyes, not be allowed. He was fairly frank about it.
    Not to mention the experiment on human subjects with chemical weapons, at Porton Down, which went on into the '70s, I think.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,504
    I'm still flummoxed by the slow rate of growth in large parts of the US where the vax rate is low, particularly given they have pretty much been back to normal for weeks and Delta is definitely there and well seeded. Perhaps it's just a very lagged version of what we're seeing here. Slow, slow, slow then suddenly through the roof.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853
    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853
    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Depends - are they not primarily 'ripping through' the unvaccinated who are making zero effort re precautions?. In Spain the current spike in cases is almost entirely due to 'end of school/university course events' in the Balearics. I'm sure it is more infectious but irresponsible behaviour may well be a contributing factor here.
    Haven’t a couple of people on here, been going on about the Balearics for weeks now?

    Well, cases there just doubled in ten days. Another couple of weeks of the same, and they’ll be up to the same rate as the UK.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/covid-vaccine-passport-nhs-app-eu-travel-rome-italy/

    Because what else was going to happen,when you put all the unvaccinated youth of the whole of Europe, on a few small islands with 10,000 capacity nightclubs?
    There are strict rules about the nightclubs to be fair - a bigger problem with the young are the 'botellones' or street raves!
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,524
    edited June 2021
    I think it would be a huge error to stop reporting case numbers, given they are so high. I fully accept that the link between cases/hospitalisations/deaths is either broken or very very weak. But case numbers provide a salutary reminder to the public that there's a nasty disease circulating, and high/rising numbers have some impact on modifying behaviour (without laws or guidance) to reduce that risk. If case numbers disappeared, I suspect folk would think it's all over now. Additionally, for simple transparency reasons they should be published. And publishing case numbers may encourage some to get vaccinated.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    TimS said:

    I'm still flummoxed by the slow rate of growth in large parts of the US where the vax rate is low, particularly given they have pretty much been back to normal for weeks and Delta is definitely there and well seeded. Perhaps it's just a very lagged version of what we're seeing here. Slow, slow, slow then suddenly through the roof.

    Trying to predict what Covid will do is an impossible task
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2021

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    He's won 13 trophies since Everton last won a trophy.

    Including 2 La Ligas, 2 UEFA Cup/Europa League, 1 FA Cup, and of course the trophy with the big ears.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Is there much evidence that the Delta variant is more infectious or are they deducing it because people catch it quicker through doing things which would basically make you catch anything quicker!???
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    AlistairM said:

    Given the current Covid situation I have been trying to compare now against previous waves and have put together the below chart.



    It plots 7-day rolling Cases, Admissions and Deaths on a Base-2 log scale. It is intended to make all 3 measures comparable more easily.

    .

    Thanks for sharing that graph. It provides a great visualisation.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    I'm sorry but there is the reek of political death around Sir Keir. Even the normally equanimous Rafael Behr at the Guardian was putting the boot in.

    The dots are not easily joined, except as a sequence of Labour excuses, which is not the traditional prelude to general election triumph. MPs and activists report deep malaise. The party brand is broken, they say. Voters are either unable to say what Labour stands for or are persuaded it stands for people not like them. [...] Starmer is not the cause of those problems, but there is a vagueness about him that doesn’t help. The dominance of pandemic news explains why the opposition leader has not been heard, but not why he has so little to say. There have been speeches that no one hears, but those of us who do seek them out for clues about Labour’s direction are not better informed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/29/labour-keir-starmer-party-unity

    I do not stir.
    The frost makes a flower,
    The dew makes a star,
    The dead bell,
    The dead bell.

    Somebody's done for.

    But whom do they turn to? The only decent people have been branded "Blairites" (Cooper, Benn et al), so who? Angela Rayner? She is so lightweight she makes Bozo look like a serious international statesman. Our political system is doomed. Doomed I tell you!
    I dot know, but perhaps some/many of the Corbynites have left the party in discussed, and Cooper will have her day.

    At the danger of helping Labour in to power, I think a Blairite, competent Moderate, which is how I perceive Cooper, if she could become leader of Labour would be a real threat to the conservatives.

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Mate, that's a euphemism for your premature ejaculation.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581

    I expect Labour to lose. I hope they do not lose to George Galloway.

    I hope we do not lose because of Galloway. If we do lose, I want the Tories to win by more votes than GG receives.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Would it be correct to say that if the original variant had spread through the population without being impeded, this variant would probably never have arisen?
    Not sure how much impeding there was going on in India
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Well if its doing that in vaccinated Britain, the goodness knows what it is doing in unvaxxed American states like Texas and Florida.

    Especially in their big, crowded cities! must be armageddon.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    felix said:

    Is there much evidence that the Delta variant is more infectious or are they deducing it because people catch it quicker through doing things which would basically make you catch anything quicker!???

    I don't think it has been tested in a laboraty setting,

    But, I think the assertion 'Delta is more contagious than other variants' is being made because in places that have both and are doing sequencing, as time goes on they are finding more delta and less of the others.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    He's won 13 trophies since Everton last won a trophy.

    Including 2 La Ligas, 2 UEFA Cup/Europa League, 1 FA Cup, and of course the trophy with the big ears.
    He won Gary Lineker?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853

    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
    She didn't give a citation. But she IS very clever, top of her profession, not a fool that reads the Express

    She's the sort that does tons of reading. I'm minded to believe that she has, at least, read that somewhere reputable; doesn't make it true, of course

    But we can all see how frigging infectious Delta can be. It's almost as if it this virus was engineered to have maximum virulence, in a lab
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,247
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Unfortunately I have not been offered the gig. It does seem to me that Cummings has taken pictures of lots of things that should at least be confidential and quite possibly a good deal more secret than that. It really is inconceivable that someone in such a position will not have a confidential information provision in his contract. This really shouldn't be that difficult in law. The court of public opinion is, of course, another matter.


    But officials are worried about a backlash:

    "We could bring the force of the state down to bear on him, but where could that lead? There is a strong body of thought that he would like to be in court and could reveal a load more damaging stuff under oath"


    https://www.ft.com/content/cbf42278-1a75-4acf-b5a7-788511754428
    But an injunction will stop him simply distributing more material every time he feels like making trouble. I would go for it.
    Dominic Cummings' most recent claim was that he tricked Boris into getting rid of the Saj. There was no accompanying official document, email or Whatsapp message. That's the trouble: it is what Cummings knows; not what he can prove. Finding the smoking gun memo can be left to a Select Committee if anyone cares.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,504
    Would be very interesting to see how this epidemic actually compares (in case numbers and growth terms) with what happens with other diseases. I've no handle on how widely and rapidly other infections grow.

    For example, every year (or few months) you'll hear talk about the fact there is a particularly nasty cold going round, or there will be talk of everyone coming down with the winter vomiting virus. We never test extensively for these, and half the time they don't even make it to the doctor's, particularly colds. What would the infection curves look like if PHE were issuing daily updates and dozens of twitter statisticians were doing charts of them. Do we, for example, have times of the year where something like flu is growing at 20k+ cases per day? Perhaps we do, and the death numbers in some winters coupled with the known CFR of flu suggest maybe the rates massively outstrip this, but I've no idea.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    There are indeed. There are an approximately equal group (From my EFC FB groups), who are, like me, relatively sanguine.
    We've got a top manager. Spurs haven't.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    TOPPING said:

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
    I've got a way around that.

    Record yourself with the six hotties and that's porn, and legal under Covid-19 regulations.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    I expect Labour to lose. I hope they do not lose to George Galloway.

    I hope we do not lose because of Galloway. If we do lose, I want the Tories to win by more votes than GG receives.
    That is bizarre. Surely that would be even worse for your party? I'm convinced you're moving ever closer to that red to blue switch. :smiley:
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    He's won 13 trophies since Everton last won a trophy.

    Including 2 La Ligas, 2 UEFA Cup/Europa League, 1 FA Cup, and of course the trophy with the big ears.
    He won Gary Lineker?
    Or the POW!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Brought by plague-ridden journos or plague-ridden security?

    Or was it Covid Boris?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161


    Colin Angus
    @VictimOfMaths
    Recent analysis from AP found that 99.2% of COVID deaths in the US in May were in those not fully vaccinated.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
    She didn't give a citation. But she IS very clever, top of her profession, not a fool that reads the Express

    She's the sort that does tons of reading. I'm minded to believe that she has, at least, read that somewhere reputable; doesn't make it true, of course

    But we can all see how frigging infectious Delta can be. It's almost as if it this virus was engineered to have maximum virulence, in a lab
    Well it's always been sort of true, if somebody come right up to you and coughs / sneezes right in your face as you breath in.

    But, especially outdoors, most scientists have said a fleeting pass it is very difficult to inhale enough of the virus. R0 although significantly higher than original or kent variant, it is still nowhere near the sort of levels of something like Measles or Chickenpox.

    If it really was expose for 5-10s, all those footballers who teammates got it, Spain, Scotland, Croatia, etc, the whole squad will have got it, as they definitely spend more than 10s with each other.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    This Delta variant really is virulently infectious isn't it?
    Will rip through unvaccinated countries. It is ripping through here, too.
    Those case rights are astonishing given our level of vaccine protection.

    Agreed. Given more than half our country is double vaxxed, when it is supposed to be much more difficult, if not impossible, to catch the virus it is just astonishing the rate at which it is managing to spread.
    If we wanted low case numbers we should have done the rollout backwards ;)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    felix said:

    Is there much evidence that the Delta variant is more infectious or are they deducing it because people catch it quicker through doing things which would basically make you catch anything quicker!???

    Both
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    TOPPING said:

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
    I've got a way around that.

    Record yourself with the six hotties and that's porn, and legal under Covid-19 regulations.
    As we discovered last week, while you couldn't invite your girlfriend back to your place you could invite someone willing to offer you a "girlfriend experience" provided you paid her.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,398
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
    She didn't give a citation. But she IS very clever, top of her profession, not a fool that reads the Express

    She's the sort that does tons of reading. I'm minded to believe that she has, at least, read that somewhere reputable; doesn't make it true, of course

    But we can all see how frigging infectious Delta can be. It's almost as if it this virus was engineered to have maximum virulence, in a lab
    Wait, I thought it was the original version that got leaked from a lab? If so, the lab version was a bit naff really, wasn't it, compared to Delta? So much for enhancement of function.

    Or did the original version and Delta both come from the lab? That really would be careless (lose a virus once, shame on... shame on you, lose a virus... - you can't lose a virus again!)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848
    .
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    There are indeed. There are an approximately equal group (From my EFC FB groups), who are, like me, relatively sanguine.
    We've got a top manager. Spurs haven't.
    Is the right attitude.

    Rafa’s a great manager, with a pile of winners’ medals in his collection. The Toffeemen could have done an awful lot worse.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Unfortunately I have not been offered the gig. It does seem to me that Cummings has taken pictures of lots of things that should at least be confidential and quite possibly a good deal more secret than that. It really is inconceivable that someone in such a position will not have a confidential information provision in his contract. This really shouldn't be that difficult in law. The court of public opinion is, of course, another matter.


    But officials are worried about a backlash:

    "We could bring the force of the state down to bear on him, but where could that lead? There is a strong body of thought that he would like to be in court and could reveal a load more damaging stuff under oath"


    https://www.ft.com/content/cbf42278-1a75-4acf-b5a7-788511754428
    But an injunction will stop him simply distributing more material every time he feels like making trouble. I would go for it.
    Dominic Cummings' most recent claim was that he tricked Boris into getting rid of the Saj. There was no accompanying official document, email or Whatsapp message. That's the trouble: it is what Cummings knows; not what he can prove. Finding the smoking gun memo can be left to a Select Committee if anyone cares.
    Cummings can merrily add something to every minor misdemeanour Boris has done when the time is right.

    It's a drip drip drip tactic that Cummings knows will work.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249

    TOPPING said:

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
    I've got a way around that.

    Record yourself with the six hotties and that's porn, and legal under Covid-19 regulations.
    Just please tell me you're not living with your parents...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853

    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Well if its doing that in vaccinated Britain, the goodness knows what it is doing in unvaxxed American states like Texas and Florida.

    Especially in their big, crowded cities! must be armageddon.
    Yes, Delta must surely show up soon, in their stats
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    Sandpit said:

    .

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    There are indeed. There are an approximately equal group (From my EFC FB groups), who are, like me, relatively sanguine.
    We've got a top manager. Spurs haven't.
    Is the right attitude.

    Rafa’s a great manager, with a pile of winners’ medals in his collection. The Toffeemen could have done an awful lot worse.
    Yep - the Toffeemen who seem to be complaining are those who take exception to a single comment said years ago.

    Mind you taking a minor slight and using it for decades is a common Liverpudlian flaw.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
    I've got a way around that.

    Record yourself with the six hotties and that's porn, and legal under Covid-19 regulations.
    Just please tell me you're not living with your parents...
    I am.

    But I also have a place in Manchester just for me.
  • Options
    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Same here in my Yorkshire Dales village. Delta has hit every generation of one family (who do not cohabit). Double jabbed grandfather and partner bother seriously ill, jabbed son and partner both badly, infected grandchildren have closed the nursery and reception year at school. Son and partner both in the pub last Friday before getting positive results on Saturday morning, so the community is now waiting to see what happens next. Meanwhile, the pub was rammed again last night for the football game.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,298
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    There are indeed. There are an approximately equal group (From my EFC FB groups), who are, like me, relatively sanguine.
    We've got a top manager. Spurs haven't.
    I like Nuno.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'll say it again.

    The vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisations & death.

    In short if you don't accept a vaccine when you're offered one then you're an idiot and can't complain about lockdowns or death.

    We can expect Delta to rip through those many utterly reckless US states that have opened up without the protection of vaccination (what must their SAGE committees be thinking!).

    Ditto any completely irresponsible European states that have done the same thing.

    Either that, or someone is going to have some explaining to do.

    Talking of broken links, America has broken the one between freedom and being a pin cushion.

    Time will tell if they were right, or you were.
    I've been consistently right through this pandemic, unlike you.

    I remember when you were saying we'd never open up.

    I write this from the bar of the Malmaison hotel in Manchester.
    Yes but try taking six hotties back home with you for further discussions.
    I've got a way around that.

    Record yourself with the six hotties and that's porn, and legal under Covid-19 regulations.
    As we discovered last week, while you couldn't invite your girlfriend back to your place you could invite someone willing to offer you a "girlfriend experience" provided you paid her.
    Anyone here want to try that with their girlfriend, and see the response they get? :D
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    TimS said:

    Would be very interesting to see how this epidemic actually compares (in case numbers and growth terms) with what happens with other diseases. I've no handle on how widely and rapidly other infections grow.

    For example, every year (or few months) you'll hear talk about the fact there is a particularly nasty cold going round, or there will be talk of everyone coming down with the winter vomiting virus. We never test extensively for these, and half the time they don't even make it to the doctor's, particularly colds. What would the infection curves look like if PHE were issuing daily updates and dozens of twitter statisticians were doing charts of them. Do we, for example, have times of the year where something like flu is growing at 20k+ cases per day? Perhaps we do, and the death numbers in some winters coupled with the known CFR of flu suggest maybe the rates massively outstrip this, but I've no idea.

    Marr did say his Covid was 'particularly nasty' then added 'like a summer cold' which told me everything I needed to know about the virus post double vax
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    People are talking as if COVID vaccines claimed to be 100% effective against catching it....
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853
    edited June 2021
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
    She didn't give a citation. But she IS very clever, top of her profession, not a fool that reads the Express

    She's the sort that does tons of reading. I'm minded to believe that she has, at least, read that somewhere reputable; doesn't make it true, of course

    But we can all see how frigging infectious Delta can be. It's almost as if it this virus was engineered to have maximum virulence, in a lab
    Wait, I thought it was the original version that got leaked from a lab? If so, the lab version was a bit naff really, wasn't it, compared to Delta? So much for enhancement of function.

    Or did the original version and Delta both come from the lab? That really would be careless (lose a virus once, shame on... shame on you, lose a virus... - you can't lose a virus again!)
    Or a virus engineered to be super adaptable? And quick to evolve?

    Serious question. I am not a virologist, is this even possible?

    Incidentally, I defy anyone to watch this and come out thinking Fauci is this saintly figure with no questions to answer. He is deep in the dirt

    https://twitter.com/MarkMeadows/status/1409991235163545600?s=20
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Well if its doing that in vaccinated Britain, the goodness knows what it is doing in unvaxxed American states like Texas and Florida.

    Especially in their big, crowded cities! must be armageddon.
    we can see whats going on in US states, from the NYT tracker:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

    rising in 15 states flat in one and fulling in the others.

    Its rising in some heavily vaccinated states like, California and Connecticut and fulling fast in some Low vaccinated states, like north Dakota, and west Virginia. but generally the more vaccinated the more likely you are to be rising less. would be interesting to see on a scatergraph.

    I suspect its a complex formula, incoding how vaccinated the state is, how urban/rural, how bad its been hit in the past, and Luck, as in when did Delta arrive in the state.

    Over time the Luck element may decrees in relevance as all state get at least a few Delta visitors.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848
    Pulpstar said:

    TimS said:

    Would be very interesting to see how this epidemic actually compares (in case numbers and growth terms) with what happens with other diseases. I've no handle on how widely and rapidly other infections grow.

    For example, every year (or few months) you'll hear talk about the fact there is a particularly nasty cold going round, or there will be talk of everyone coming down with the winter vomiting virus. We never test extensively for these, and half the time they don't even make it to the doctor's, particularly colds. What would the infection curves look like if PHE were issuing daily updates and dozens of twitter statisticians were doing charts of them. Do we, for example, have times of the year where something like flu is growing at 20k+ cases per day? Perhaps we do, and the death numbers in some winters coupled with the known CFR of flu suggest maybe the rates massively outstrip this, but I've no idea.

    Marr did say his Covid was 'particularly nasty' then added 'like a summer cold' which told me everything I needed to know about the virus post double vax
    Marr’s been quite sick a few times over the years, he’d have been in the “almost certain to end up on a ventilator” group - in the days before vaccines.

    Vaccines are working!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    TimS said:

    Would be very interesting to see how this epidemic actually compares (in case numbers and growth terms) with what happens with other diseases. I've no handle on how widely and rapidly other infections grow.

    For example, every year (or few months) you'll hear talk about the fact there is a particularly nasty cold going round, or there will be talk of everyone coming down with the winter vomiting virus. We never test extensively for these, and half the time they don't even make it to the doctor's, particularly colds. What would the infection curves look like if PHE were issuing daily updates and dozens of twitter statisticians were doing charts of them. Do we, for example, have times of the year where something like flu is growing at 20k+ cases per day? Perhaps we do, and the death numbers in some winters coupled with the known CFR of flu suggest maybe the rates massively outstrip this, but I've no idea.

    Marr did say his Covid was 'particularly nasty' then added 'like a summer cold' which told me everything I needed to know about the virus post double vax
    I think it was fairly irresponsible from Marr. It clearly wasn't THAT bad, as he was only off work for the required isolation period. Anybody who has had a full blast from COVID or even something like pneumonia, you aren't back in at work in a few days with no outward signs of being ill.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    edited June 2021
    How many of the cases we're picking up are asymptomatic?

    image
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    People are talking as if COVID vaccines claimed to be 100% effective against catching it....

    They did claim to make fully vaccinated couples becoming seriously ill very, very, very unlikely....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    People are talking as if COVID vaccines claimed to be 100% effective against catching it....

    They did claim to make fully vaccinated couples becoming seriously ill very, very, very unlikely....
    50 deaths in over 50s in 5 months...0 deaths in under 50s in 5 months. 98-99% against hospitalization.

    The yearly flu jab is piss poor in comparison at stopping you becoming seriously ill.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    My cheerful friend in Cornwall adds this:

    "Delta can transmit in 5-10 seconds"

    Evidence....
    She didn't give a citation. But she IS very clever, top of her profession, not a fool that reads the Express

    She's the sort that does tons of reading. I'm minded to believe that she has, at least, read that somewhere reputable; doesn't make it true, of course

    But we can all see how frigging infectious Delta can be. It's almost as if it this virus was engineered to have maximum virulence, in a lab
    Wait, I thought it was the original version that got leaked from a lab? If so, the lab version was a bit naff really, wasn't it, compared to Delta? So much for enhancement of function.

    Or did the original version and Delta both come from the lab? That really would be careless (lose a virus once, shame on... shame on you, lose a virus... - you can't lose a virus again!)
    At the risk of going around in more @Leon circles...

    The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory
    https://newrepublic.com/article/162689/bats-covid-19-lab-leak-theory
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,853
    Gadfly said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Same here in my Yorkshire Dales village. Delta has hit every generation of one family (who do not cohabit). Double jabbed grandfather and partner bother seriously ill, jabbed son and partner both badly, infected grandchildren have closed the nursery and reception year at school. Son and partner both in the pub last Friday before getting positive results on Saturday morning, so the community is now waiting to see what happens next. Meanwhile, the pub was rammed again last night for the football game.
    Crikey, that's ominous. We must remember that these are all outliers, and the vaccines work, but still

    How ill is "seriously ill"?

    My friend in Cornwall says her double jabbed Deltoid pals were in bed for ten days, but not bad enough for hospital. Then the risk of Long Covid.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    edited June 2021
    Gadfly said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Same here in my Yorkshire Dales village. Delta has hit every generation of one family (who do not cohabit). Double jabbed grandfather and partner bother seriously ill, jabbed son and partner both badly, infected grandchildren have closed the nursery and reception year at school. Son and partner both in the pub last Friday before getting positive results on Saturday morning, so the community is now waiting to see what happens next. Meanwhile, the pub was rammed again last night for the football game.
    If double jabbed are getting seriously ill in growing/large numbers wouldn't ZOE have picked this up by now as they are driven by people with symptoms?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    eek said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    26,068 cases...Boris is going to shit his pants come the decision on Freedom day when cases are 50k.

    Dingwall would rather we didn't mention case numbers or something.
    The last date we have rolling 7 day figures for cases by date reportted is June 27th when the average was 19,296 compared to 11,354 on June 20th.

    Since June 27th the figures reported are 20,479 and 26,068 so numbers are still rising quickly. For reference last Wednesday the figure was 14,065.

    So I can see why some people may want the figures to no longer be so regularly published as the trend for cases really doesn't look good at the moment.

    Thankfully hospital and death figures look a lot healthy....
    Yes, low but in Scotland in hospital they have doubled in June from 100 to 200+with low numbers in ICU and low deaths.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    Sandpit said:

    .

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    I love Rafa so much, never stopped loving him when he managed Chelsea so managing Everton is fine by me.

    https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2181395/benitez-appointed-everton-manager

    There’s a lot of Everton fans online today, who don’t seem to be too happy at the prospect of having a manager who won the European Cup.
    There are indeed. There are an approximately equal group (From my EFC FB groups), who are, like me, relatively sanguine.
    We've got a top manager. Spurs haven't.
    Is the right attitude.

    Rafa’s a great manager, with a pile of winners’ medals in his collection. The Toffeemen could have done an awful lot worse.
    Trouble is. Here is what EFC managers since 2002 are now doing.

    Moyes. Leading WHU into Europe.
    Martinez. Leading Belgium to the Euro QF.
    Koeman. FC Barcelona.
    Allardyce. Dole.
    Silva. Dole.
    Ancelloti. Real Madrid.

    None of these has had any consistent success or got us to CL.
    I fear our problems aren't lack of a decent manager or two.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata from Cornwall

    A close friend of mine (cancer survivor, l;ate 50s) lives in Mousehole. Cornwall

    She reports a huge spike in cases in Cornish hotspots - post G7 - up to 900 per 100,000

    She also reports two double jabbed villagers are really ill with Delta, and half the pubs and restaurants are shut again, because so many staff are ill/isolating. Not good

    Well if its doing that in vaccinated Britain, the goodness knows what it is doing in unvaxxed American states like Texas and Florida.

    Especially in their big, crowded cities! must be armageddon.
    Yes, Delta must surely show up soon, in their stats
    It has,

    +7% incres WoW in the USA according to wouldmeater:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table
This discussion has been closed.