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The more educated voters are the less likely they’ll be satisfied with BoJo – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2021
    BBC News - Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

    But Caster Semenya can't at her chosen event....

    I know why (according to the rules laid down), bit I imagine this is going to cause a lot of noise.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,351

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Gnudders said:

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    You are basically arguing that the current Conservative government at Westminster is illegitimate, as it only got 42% of the vote.
    I'm not. The Green-supported minority SNP government in Scotland is legitimate, and it's legitimate for it to request a section 30 order. If a majority in the election had voted for candidates who promised separation, or even just a referendum rerun, then the Tory government would be trampling on the wishes of the people of Scotland if it denied the request. But if my auntie were my uncle...

    Staying in the Union or becoming independent should only be decided by referendum. That makes it legitimate for the British government to consider expressions of support for the competing options that have been forthcoming from the population in real votes, and to do so on the basis of full OPOV, the principle that would be used in a referendum regardless of not being used at Holyrood. Six elections can be looked at. Their results were all pro-Union.
    How were they pro-Union?

    2015 for example:
    Nationalists: 56 of 59 seats, 51.3% of the vote.
    Unionists 3 of 59 seats, 48.3% of the vote.

    Where is the pro-Union vote there? 🤔
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,280

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    If there is a new GE it is looking like a weak minority conservative coalition government, propped up by the anti-immigration Sweden Democrats:

    Latest poll:

    The “January” parties (social democrats, greens plus the two liberal parties): 41.5%

    The two conservative parties: 27.5%

    Sweden Democrats: 20.2%

    Left Party (formerly Communists): 9.6%
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Delta variant begins to spread, threatening EU’s Covid progress



    https://twitter.com/valentinapop/status/1406863259446255616?s=20

    That and trivial proportions of sequencing.....

    The curves are basically identical, everywhere. As you’d expect. Delta is so much more virulent, it dominates very quickly. It will be the same worldwide
    It this necessarily as bad as it seems? Delta is taking a much higher share of new infections but wouldn't much of these these likely to have been new infections anyway, i.e. under a previous iteration of the virus?
    It’s bad because Delta is more transmissible = more people in hospital, quicker. There is also some debated evidence that it is nastier once you get it, and that it partly evades the vaccines - certainly after just one dose

    The answer is to double jab the world ASAP
    If it "escapes" double vaccination, you basically get a cold so far as I can tell.
    Now there still seems some slight increased risk for the very old and unhealthy - but you can't structure society around the very infirm and refuseniks
    Ahem.

    image

    Contrary to what some say, Foxy & friends don't admit people to hospital for LOLs.
    That chart doesn't contradict me
    The point is, sadly, that the vaccinations haven't reduced COVID to the status of it's cousins - the cold. I wish it had.
    I think it does for *most* people. Should we have restrictions on liberty post 19th July ?
    It obviously won't overwhelm the NHS, your odds are dramatically improved post vaccination, the refusers have decided their amazing immune system is all that's needed and interventions in a classic SEIR only flatten the curve which will already be sufficiently flattened by vax.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Gnudders said:

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    You are basically arguing that the current Conservative government at Westminster is illegitimate, as it only got 42% of the vote.
    I'm not. The Green-supported minority SNP government in Scotland is legitimate, and it's legitimate for it to request a section 30 order. If a majority in the election had voted for candidates who promised separation, or even just a referendum rerun, then the Tory government would be trampling on the wishes of the people of Scotland if it denied the request. But if my auntie were my uncle...

    Staying in the Union or becoming independent should only be decided by referendum. That makes it legitimate for the British government to consider expressions of support for the competing options that have been forthcoming from the population in real votes, and to do so on the basis of full OPOV, the principle that would be used in a referendum regardless of not being used at Holyrood or Westminster. Six elections can be looked at. Their results were all pro-Union.
    Nope. Two were pro-independence, including the most recent one just last month.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,718

    In the office today. I’m literally the only person here. 🤦‍♂️

    Our offices (I'm an interesting accountant) is very quiet.
    In my department, the senior manager, in his 60s, comes in every day. Though I suspect there may be 'home' reasons for that (clear off out the house and avoid the wife). Though he also doesn't like technology much and prefers to be there in person.

    But outside of him, attendence is poor. The other managers (myself included) do one day a week.
    The more junior staff never seem to attend. There are some people I've not seen in 16 months outside of a screen, and we've a couple of new staff members I've never met in person.

    Don't know what's going to happen post 19th July..... very strange.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    BBC News - Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

    But Caster Semenya can't at her chosen event....

    I know why (according to the rules laid down), bit I imagine this is going to cause a lot of noise.

    The female category should be for those born female and currently female.
    If Semenya is deemed female, and has not changed sex she should be allowed to compete; if she isn't, she shouldn't.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,245
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Infrastructure support is critical. Far too many housing developments are steamrollered through with no additional infrastructure. Councils often don't have the cash to build new roads or there is simply nowhere to put them.

    Developments go through where it is noted that there is insufficient access but the developers win anyway, yet when a road scheme is then tried to be added the planning process is far more stringent and often doesn't get approved.
    We have recently had 68 new houses in our village. The school was full, the lanes haven't been widened (they are Devon Banks, so have to be protected), there are generally two cars at each of these new houses, putting more pressure on the pot-holed roads - and this is a small development compared to what they are doing above Dartmouth.
    And this is why we get NIMBYism - new developments especially under the NPPF are a direct threat to the fabric of many communities as they aren't designed to be sympathetic to the local environment.

    How many new houses are being built with a single parking space? A driveway and a garage is not "two parking spaces" unless the car in the garage can be transported through the one blocking it on the drive. How many have a drive barely wide enough for a modern car?

    You end up with developments where from day 1 they are littered with cars, the roads nearby were already full and as you say there is no local school places which forces parents to drive their kids across town.

    When you have a largely unregulated developers charter thanks for your sizeable donation to the Conservative Party this is what you get. If the Tories don't wake up and listen to concerns they will struggle against a LD operation targeting planning directly.
    The term should be NIABY not NIMBY. Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

    We in our village got accused of Nimbyism when we resisted being dragged into the boundary of the nearest large town by the insertion of new developments in the space between. The integrity of the nation's most beautiful and historic areas must be defended against these building company vandals. That applies all across the country, not just the village in which you live. NIABY. Looking after nature and aesthetics are all that matter in the end.

    I don't think the CP realise what they are proposing. They have drunk the need-more-houses-on-greenbelt coolaid. I would expect this of the LP but not the CP. The LibDems could re-launch themselves off the back of this one issue alone.
    So where should people live then?
    Use the brown field site areas and disused parts of the town centres, rather than having mile upon mile of charity shops. This would mean filling places in primary schools and health centres already there rather than saying you'll build a school but never do.
    There aren't sufficient brownfield sites in the country. The countries population has increased by a sixth in a generation, where do you think all this mythical brownfield comes from? 🤦‍♂️

    You can't increase the population by a sixth without realistically increasing the land available by a sixth too.
    I can’t speak for other cities. But most of London is swathed in very poor quality two or three storey Victorian or Georgian terraced housing. Single brick but with shallow foundations and cement mortar. Which makes it prone to subsidence and damp, and expensive to heat. Most of it has been subject to very poor conversion, with no sound proofing, to slice and dice it into ever smaller units.

    If you want brownfield, it’s bloody everywhere. The state should compulsory purchase whole streets and rebuild it all a couple of stories higher and to modern standards, with an eye on curing infrastructure pinch points in the mix.
    You want to knock down London’s Georgian and Victorian housing? A wealth of period architecture which most cities would kill for? Good luck with that
    I do! Not all of it but a lot of it. Particularly in much of south london, where the geology exacerbates the subsidence risk. Most of it is ordinary at best. All these crap conversions to 400-500ft square feet flats in terraces. Ugh. Or reconversion to family homes that even in the divier bits of south London are well into the £1-2m range. Ugh.

    Knock a bug chunk of it down, rebuild it a little taller and with proper sound heat and sound insulation. Better bigger flats for youngsters, and a larger and cheaper housing stock for families.

  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    The England of my imagination is PG Wodehouse, Life of Brian and quiet, good-natured decency.

    However, I am aware of the England of Oswald Mosley, Bomber Harris and Boer concentration camps.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,553

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    The England of my imagination is PG Wodehouse, Life of Brian and quiet, good-natured decency.

    However, I am aware of the England of Oswald Mosley, Bomber Harris and Boer concentration camps.
    Britain, surely?
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    Further to my previous reply, please note that most of the period 1707-2016 was characterised by English self-restraint. They were so self-assured about their domination of the Union that they rarely needed to prove it. Brexit changed that: England showed that she lacks that natural assurance and she now feels the need to throw her weight about.

    Bullying does more harm to the bully than to the bullied.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,351

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    The England of my imagination is PG Wodehouse, Life of Brian and quiet, good-natured decency.

    However, I am aware of the England of Oswald Mosley, Bomber Harris and Boer concentration camps.
    Scotland - and frankly NI - now show off England's approach in the 21st Century. Scotland very clearly has voted - again - for parties seeking independence. The @Gnudders of this world saying "no they haven't" need to understand what such blind denial looks like to the rest of the world.

    As with the NI catastrophe our friends and partners are looking at us wondering what on earth we are doing. If the intention of England is to be seen factually as untrustworthy people who lie to themselves and don't uphold the agreements they sign then keep going like this.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Infrastructure support is critical. Far too many housing developments are steamrollered through with no additional infrastructure. Councils often don't have the cash to build new roads or there is simply nowhere to put them.

    Developments go through where it is noted that there is insufficient access but the developers win anyway, yet when a road scheme is then tried to be added the planning process is far more stringent and often doesn't get approved.
    We have recently had 68 new houses in our village. The school was full, the lanes haven't been widened (they are Devon Banks, so have to be protected), there are generally two cars at each of these new houses, putting more pressure on the pot-holed roads - and this is a small development compared to what they are doing above Dartmouth.
    And this is why we get NIMBYism - new developments especially under the NPPF are a direct threat to the fabric of many communities as they aren't designed to be sympathetic to the local environment.

    How many new houses are being built with a single parking space? A driveway and a garage is not "two parking spaces" unless the car in the garage can be transported through the one blocking it on the drive. How many have a drive barely wide enough for a modern car?

    You end up with developments where from day 1 they are littered with cars, the roads nearby were already full and as you say there is no local school places which forces parents to drive their kids across town.

    When you have a largely unregulated developers charter thanks for your sizeable donation to the Conservative Party this is what you get. If the Tories don't wake up and listen to concerns they will struggle against a LD operation targeting planning directly.
    The term should be NIABY not NIMBY. Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

    We in our village got accused of Nimbyism when we resisted being dragged into the boundary of the nearest large town by the insertion of new developments in the space between. The integrity of the nation's most beautiful and historic areas must be defended against these building company vandals. That applies all across the country, not just the village in which you live. NIABY. Looking after nature and aesthetics are all that matter in the end.

    I don't think the CP realise what they are proposing. They have drunk the need-more-houses-on-greenbelt coolaid. I would expect this of the LP but not the CP. The LibDems could re-launch themselves off the back of this one issue alone.
    So where should people live then?
    Use the brown field site areas and disused parts of the town centres, rather than having mile upon mile of charity shops. This would mean filling places in primary schools and health centres already there rather than saying you'll build a school but never do.
    This has to be a part of the solution. The problem is that developers don't like building those sorts of homes as less profitable - and many then clad them in E-Z-Burn cladding. So many town centres are dying due to the lack of £ to sustain retail businesses.

    Property owners seem happy to leave premises shuttered long term and hold them as book assets rather than actually have the shop open as a shop. So do a compulsory purchase, bulldoze the dross and repopulate towns.
    In a small town in N Essex there is a big empty shop..... was, I think, three units, which appears unsaleable or unlet-able. Been on the market about 5 years now, and is a blight on what could be the main shopping street. Further up the street is what used to be a small clothing factory, now inactive and empty.
    Both are steadily deteriorating and indeed the owners of one have been forced to put wire along the gutters to stop slates falling off the roof.
    Compulsory purchase, or indeed simply requisition, would be a damn good thing.
    If you tax property properly - ie owners are at least paying a proportion of the land value, regardless of what they put on it - the owners will generally sell a place like this if they can't find a use for it. If they ignore the tax demands, it turns into compulsory purchase, because the town (or whoever they owe the taxes to) can seize the property in lieu of the unpaid taxes.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    The England of my imagination is PG Wodehouse, Life of Brian and quiet, good-natured decency.

    However, I am aware of the England of Oswald Mosley, Bomber Harris and Boer concentration camps.
    Britain, surely?
    More Palestine and South Africa.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142

    Delta variant begins to spread, threatening EU’s Covid progress



    https://twitter.com/valentinapop/status/1406863259446255616?s=20

    That and trivial proportions of sequencing.....

    Its a good job half of Europe won't be off on their summer holidays to places like Portugal.....oh wait....
    And likely the half with the lowest vaccination rate.

    Still we'll get to see Delta versus various levels of vaccination across Europe which will be interesting scientifically.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,088

    Gnudders said:

    Coming Soon!


    Scotland has voted five times since the indyref. A reminder of the results:
    (2014 - Indyref - Unionist majority)
    2015 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2016 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority
    2017 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2019 - British GE, result in Scotland: Unionist majority
    2021 - Scottish GE: Unionist majority

    Remind me where Donald "Election Winner" Trump's mother was from?

    SNP "true belief" is right up Norman Vincent Peale's street. You lost, lost, lost, lost, lost, lost - six times in seven years.

    In 2021 there was both a majority of votes cast for Independence parties and majority of MSPs elected on that platform. On what planet was this a "Unionist Majority"?
    The type of nonsense currently being peddled by the increasingly desperate Unionists is a sign that they have chosen the Castilian path: authoritarianism and repression. Very un-English. It’s just not cricket.
    You don't think "authoritarianism and repression" is very English? Its been the playbook for a millenia!
    The England of my imagination is PG Wodehouse, Life of Brian and quiet, good-natured decency.

    However, I am aware of the England of Oswald Mosley, Bomber Harris and Boer concentration camps.
    Britain, surely?
    NO
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Infrastructure support is critical. Far too many housing developments are steamrollered through with no additional infrastructure. Councils often don't have the cash to build new roads or there is simply nowhere to put them.

    Developments go through where it is noted that there is insufficient access but the developers win anyway, yet when a road scheme is then tried to be added the planning process is far more stringent and often doesn't get approved.
    We have recently had 68 new houses in our village. The school was full, the lanes haven't been widened (they are Devon Banks, so have to be protected), there are generally two cars at each of these new houses, putting more pressure on the pot-holed roads - and this is a small development compared to what they are doing above Dartmouth.
    And this is why we get NIMBYism - new developments especially under the NPPF are a direct threat to the fabric of many communities as they aren't designed to be sympathetic to the local environment.

    How many new houses are being built with a single parking space? A driveway and a garage is not "two parking spaces" unless the car in the garage can be transported through the one blocking it on the drive. How many have a drive barely wide enough for a modern car?

    You end up with developments where from day 1 they are littered with cars, the roads nearby were already full and as you say there is no local school places which forces parents to drive their kids across town.

    When you have a largely unregulated developers charter thanks for your sizeable donation to the Conservative Party this is what you get. If the Tories don't wake up and listen to concerns they will struggle against a LD operation targeting planning directly.
    The term should be NIABY not NIMBY. Not In Anyone's Back Yard.

    We in our village got accused of Nimbyism when we resisted being dragged into the boundary of the nearest large town by the insertion of new developments in the space between. The integrity of the nation's most beautiful and historic areas must be defended against these building company vandals. That applies all across the country, not just the village in which you live. NIABY. Looking after nature and aesthetics are all that matter in the end.

    I don't think the CP realise what they are proposing. They have drunk the need-more-houses-on-greenbelt coolaid. I would expect this of the LP but not the CP. The LibDems could re-launch themselves off the back of this one issue alone.
    So where should people live then?
    Use the brown field site areas and disused parts of the town centres, rather than having mile upon mile of charity shops. This would mean filling places in primary schools and health centres already there rather than saying you'll build a school but never do.
    This has to be a part of the solution. The problem is that developers don't like building those sorts of homes as less profitable - and many then clad them in E-Z-Burn cladding. So many town centres are dying due to the lack of £ to sustain retail businesses.

    Property owners seem happy to leave premises shuttered long term and hold them as book assets rather than actually have the shop open as a shop. So do a compulsory purchase, bulldoze the dross and repopulate towns.
    In a small town in N Essex there is a big empty shop..... was, I think, three units, which appears unsaleable or unlet-able. Been on the market about 5 years now, and is a blight on what could be the main shopping street. Further up the street is what used to be a small clothing factory, now inactive and empty.
    Both are steadily deteriorating and indeed the owners of one have been forced to put wire along the gutters to stop slates falling off the roof.
    Compulsory purchase, or indeed simply requisition, would be a damn good thing.
    If you tax property properly - ie owners are at least paying a proportion of the land value, regardless of what they put on it - the owners will generally sell a place like this if they can't find a use for it. If they ignore the tax demands, it turns into compulsory purchase, because the town (or whoever they owe the taxes to) can seize the property in lieu of the unpaid taxes.
    Quite agree; Land Value Tax was one of the reasons I started to support the Liberals (pre LD's) years ago.
    There's another property in the same town where the tenant and owner seem to be at loggerheads over what can happen to it, so nothing does. Why he meant pays rent on it is beyond my understanding, unless, of course, it's some complicated loss-making drain on his taxes.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,550

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    This shows the length of time required for regeneration. It takes a good 30 years for it to be effective.
    It certainly takes a while, but maybe not 30 years

    My drive home yesterday took me right through the new King’s Cross. The Google HQ (to be), St Martin’s, Coal Drop Yards

    It was absolutely rammed. Terrifically heartening. The northern King’s X regeneration is only 15 years old. It is also superbly done - and blessed with great transport from the start, of course
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited June 2021
    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    I went through a rigmarole to go to Ascot last week. I now need to do a(nother) PCR test having done a lateral flow and PCR one already..

    Was it worth it? I suppose so. But yes a fucking palaver.

    I am pondering how many people a) reported their LFT accurately and b) how many people will bother doing their second PCR test
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,553
    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    Mandating smartphones for sports fans is the photo-ID for voting problem in a different guise. Fine for those who've got it, a real obstacle to participation for those who have not.
  • Options
    theProletheProle Posts: 950
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Delta variant begins to spread, threatening EU’s Covid progress



    https://twitter.com/valentinapop/status/1406863259446255616?s=20

    That and trivial proportions of sequencing.....

    The curves are basically identical, everywhere. As you’d expect. Delta is so much more virulent, it dominates very quickly. It will be the same worldwide
    It this necessarily as bad as it seems? Delta is taking a much higher share of new infections but wouldn't much of these these likely to have been new infections anyway, i.e. under a previous iteration of the virus?
    It’s bad because Delta is more transmissible = more people in hospital, quicker. There is also some debated evidence that it is nastier once you get it, and that it partly evades the vaccines - certainly after just one dose

    The answer is to double jab the world ASAP
    If it "escapes" double vaccination, you basically get a cold so far as I can tell.
    Now there still seems some slight increased risk for the very old and unhealthy - but you can't structure society around the very infirm and refuseniks
    Ahem.

    image

    Contrary to what some say, Foxy & friends don't admit people to hospital for LOLs.
    That chart doesn't contradict me
    The point is, sadly, that the vaccinations haven't reduced COVID to the status of it's cousins - the cold. I wish it had.
    I think it does for *most* people. Should we have restrictions on liberty post 19th July ?
    It obviously won't overwhelm the NHS, your odds are dramatically improved post vaccination, the refusers have decided their amazing immune system is all that's needed and interventions in a classic SEIR only flatten the curve which will already be sufficiently flattened by vax.
    Obvious question about that chart - is the source data "People admitted to hospital because they are suffering from Covid" or "People who are admitted to hospital for anything who test positive for Covid"?

    This is quite an important distinction in the current scenario, where there are quite a lot of single dose vaxed people who are reasonably likely to get mild cases Indian variant covid. If that's going on in the population at large at an increasing rate (which it seems to be), one would expect an uptick in "went to A&E with a broken ankle, tested positive" type cases, but that doesn't really matter very much to anyone.

    On the other hand, if these are people who are actually going to hospital because they are ill with Covid, that's rather more of an issue.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,088

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,323
    Nigelb said:

    An article for @TOPPING

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93166
    ...There's also the fact that if a vaccine does have a side effect, it will likely show up in the first 6 to 8 weeks of use, Offit said.

    "Of all the vaccines we use, in infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, none of them have any long-term effects," Schaffner said. "No vaccine has shown side effects 2 to 5 years later. That doesn't exist because there's no biological reason for it."

    Schaffner said the argument could also be made that "we know vastly more about mRNA vaccines than we do about Novavax. Novavax is new whereas we've given the mRNA vaccines to 170 million people in the U.S. alone. We may know more about the safety there than we do about Novavax."

    Wen said it's still important to emphasize the good safety record of the vaccines while still taking patient preference into account.

    "I have no concerns about the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines," Wen told MedPage Today. "That said, there are individuals who may have these concerns, and if another vaccine is what it takes to get them vaccinated, I think we should do everything we can to dispel misinformation while increasing options."...

    ...Schaffner added that primary care physicians, who often have existing close relationships with their patients, have a big role to play in addressing remaining hesitancy.

    "We have to respect why they feel that way and try to find out what is causing it," he said. "We never disrespect the person who is hesitant. We never dismiss them or belittle them. When they realize we will take their concerns seriously, they'll tell us what their issue is. Then we'll say, that's pretty common, I've heard that before, and their anxiety is eased."...

    Wait a minute - didn't it take many years of using BCG (against TB) for anyone to notice that it had a long-term protective side effect against some other infections? It's surely plausible that vaccines have other long term side effects that we haven't noticed yet.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,176

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368
  • Options
    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    I have a smartphone and know how to use it, but I'm conscious that many people of my generation do not and do not want to. I therefore refuse to sign up to any service or make any purchase that requires you to have one. Call it generational solidarity.
    My banking is done online. This doesn't stop my bank from endlessly bullying me to download their app, which they tell me is more secure though they don't tell me for whom.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,735

    When “ringfenced” becomes “earmarked”

    I've just read the SNP statement on the missing £666,953

    In summary, it says that they spend any ringfenced money on what they like, but keep a tab running of how much is due.

    There is no cash to back-up that tab - it relies on future income.

    Isn't that what a Ponzi Scheme is?


    https://twitter.com/RankinPeter/status/1406537724534874114?s=20

    Who regulates political parties in Scotland?

    Half interested, and half I would genuinely like to know.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    An article for @TOPPING

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93166
    ...There's also the fact that if a vaccine does have a side effect, it will likely show up in the first 6 to 8 weeks of use, Offit said.

    "Of all the vaccines we use, in infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, none of them have any long-term effects," Schaffner said. "No vaccine has shown side effects 2 to 5 years later. That doesn't exist because there's no biological reason for it."

    Schaffner said the argument could also be made that "we know vastly more about mRNA vaccines than we do about Novavax. Novavax is new whereas we've given the mRNA vaccines to 170 million people in the U.S. alone. We may know more about the safety there than we do about Novavax."

    Wen said it's still important to emphasize the good safety record of the vaccines while still taking patient preference into account.

    "I have no concerns about the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines," Wen told MedPage Today. "That said, there are individuals who may have these concerns, and if another vaccine is what it takes to get them vaccinated, I think we should do everything we can to dispel misinformation while increasing options."...

    ...Schaffner added that primary care physicians, who often have existing close relationships with their patients, have a big role to play in addressing remaining hesitancy.

    "We have to respect why they feel that way and try to find out what is causing it," he said. "We never disrespect the person who is hesitant. We never dismiss them or belittle them. When they realize we will take their concerns seriously, they'll tell us what their issue is. Then we'll say, that's pretty common, I've heard that before, and their anxiety is eased."...

    Wait a minute - didn't it take many years of using BCG (against TB) for anyone to notice that it had a long-term protective side effect against some other infections? It's surely plausible that vaccines have other long term side effects that we haven't noticed yet.
    Careful. That kind of talk gets you cancelled round these parts.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,280

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    I’m not in favour of Blut und Boden politics, but I assume those who think Scottish birth should be the qualification for getting a vote therefore think English born immigrants to Scotland should not be able to vote. Since by many calculations their votes swung it for No last time out, this may be sub optimal from a Unionist pov.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,245

    In the office today. I’m literally the only person here. 🤦‍♂️

    Our offices (I'm an interesting accountant) is very quiet.
    In my department, the senior manager, in his 60s, comes in every day. Though I suspect there may be 'home' reasons for that (clear off out the house and avoid the wife). Though he also doesn't like technology much and prefers to be there in person.

    But outside of him, attendence is poor. The other managers (myself included) do one day a week.
    The more junior staff never seem to attend. There are some people I've not seen in 16 months outside of a screen, and we've a couple of new staff members I've never met in person.

    Don't know what's going to happen post 19th July..... very strange.
    I have become gradually convinced that the polling in favour of delaying step 4 is noise, with the signal being that people don’t want to become commuter slaves again.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.
  • Options
    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    Of course, if they gave the English a vote Scotland would be independent straight away.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,177
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    Agreed, though I'm on the other side of the fence. There should be no monkeying with the rules, only residents on the electoral roll. Nor can I see anything else would be workable.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142



    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    I’m not in favour of Blut und Boden politics, but I assume those who think Scottish birth should be the qualification for getting a vote therefore think English born immigrants to Scotland should not be able to vote. Since by many calculations their votes swung it for No last time out, this may be sub optimal from a Unionist pov.
    I'm not for or against anything.

    I'm merely making the observation that people want the rules to favour themselves.

    You're a supporter of Scottish independence.

    If you thought that extending the franchise to Scots in other countries would help Scottish independence you'd support that.

    I wouldn't criticize you for that but can me stop all this holier than thou line.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,847

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,718

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    How would you define a UK Scot?
    Birth certificate has a location in Scotland?

    Okay, what if they lived there 6 months then family moved to England and they've never been back for 60 years?
    Would someone from Northern Ireland who took a Republic passport, lived in Germany all his life (under FoM) but recently moved to Scotland get the vote?

    Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... the headaches.....
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,351

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    1. How do they define "UK Scots"? How many generations will you be allowed to go back to be sufficiently scotch enough for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel?
    2. There are a LOT of people up here who are not "UK Scots". Let me guess, no vote if you live here but aren't Scottish?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    1. How do they define "UK Scots"? How many generations will you be allowed to go back to be sufficiently scotch enough for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel?
    2. There are a LOT of people up here who are not "UK Scots". Let me guess, no vote if you live here but aren't Scottish?
    I hear self-identification is all the rage nowadays.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    This shows the length of time required for regeneration. It takes a good 30 years for it to be effective.
    It certainly takes a while, but maybe not 30 years

    My drive home yesterday took me right through the new King’s Cross. The Google HQ (to be), St Martin’s, Coal Drop Yards

    It was absolutely rammed. Terrifically heartening. The northern King’s X regeneration is only 15 years old. It is also superbly done - and blessed with great transport from the start, of course
    A major part of the Kings Cross redevelopment was removing the more problematic locals.

    I called it ethnic cleansing....
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,280



    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    I’m not in favour of Blut und Boden politics, but I assume those who think Scottish birth should be the qualification for getting a vote therefore think English born immigrants to Scotland should not be able to vote. Since by many calculations their votes swung it for No last time out, this may be sub optimal from a Unionist pov.
    I'm not for or against anything.

    I'm merely making the observation that people want the rules to favour themselves.

    You're a supporter of Scottish independence.

    If you thought that extending the franchise to Scots in other countries would help Scottish independence you'd support that.

    I wouldn't criticize you for that but can me stop all this holier than thou line.
    'can me stop all this holier than thou line'

    I wish you would.

  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    You really don't understand England do you.

    There are some English people who think of Scots as equals or brothers, there are some English who think Scotland is a nuisance and want it to go away and there are some English who don't care either way.

    But nobody thinks of Scotland as a colony.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    This shows the length of time required for regeneration. It takes a good 30 years for it to be effective.
    It certainly takes a while, but maybe not 30 years

    My drive home yesterday took me right through the new King’s Cross. The Google HQ (to be), St Martin’s, Coal Drop Yards

    It was absolutely rammed. Terrifically heartening. The northern King’s X regeneration is only 15 years old. It is also superbly done - and blessed with great transport from the start, of course
    Just to chip in:
    1) How can you fail to get your bearings in Docklands? It's a grid. If you're facing north and turn left, you're facing west. And so on.
    This is not a point in favour of or against grid systems or more organic layouts, nor, really, about the favourabilty of otherwise of being able to get your bearings. Several members of my family have absolutely no sense of direction whatsoever. I love them very much, but am baffled by their lack of ability to get from a to b intuitively.

    2) Everything Leon observes about London I could also echo about Manchester. It feels buzzing, cheerful, optimistic. And the development! The growth! Salford Quays now also looks like downtown Chicago. Many planners hate it because it is sterile; I like it because it is clean and pleasant and not covered in either litter or graffiti (possibly because much of the space is in private hands). It's a little odd however how the quays end so abruptly and transition into suburban-industrial - not what you expect on the edge of a city centre environment. Give it another twenty years or so though... Similarly, Ancoats, New Islington, Spinningfields, St. Georges, New Bailey, Middlewood Locks, Angel Gardens - all neighbourhoods which were desolate post-industrial emptiness 5, 10, 15 years ago are now absolutely thriving and part of the city centre. You can see the same process about to happen in Strangeways, Miles Platting, Collyhurst and Ardwick. The effective size of Manchester/Salford City Centre is now four times what it was in the eighties.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    It's cold and wet. And the cricket is on. What else do you want?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,176
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,245
    There were a couple of pertinent comment in today’s FT by a reader. Namely that the housing boom of the late 90s to 2008 featured more houses being built than working age adults entering the population.

    And secondly that without other reform, a boom in house building will do little but provide additional collateral to feed the asset price bubble.

    I wish Philip (and the uk government) would think a bit more carefully about all this before they rush to build over the green belt.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,401

    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368

    That's a disaster. He was superb against England.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    Fenman said:

    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    I have a smartphone and know how to use it, but I'm conscious that many people of my generation do not and do not want to. I therefore refuse to sign up to any service or make any purchase that requires you to have one. Call it generational solidarity.
    My banking is done online. This doesn't stop my bank from endlessly bullying me to download their app, which they tell me is more secure though they don't tell me for whom.
    I've got one, but I never use it. Bank using my own PC, with my security.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    moonshine said:

    There were a couple of pertinent comment in today’s FT by a reader. Namely that the housing boom of the late 90s to 2008 featured more houses being built than working age adults entering the population.

    Housing demand was always going to increase faster than the population because of the decline in the average size of households and longer life expectancy.

  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    England might be OK with it if it is reciprocal, but with the bigoted xenophobia of many Scottish nationalists, it may not be.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    Purfleet in Essex is being done up - apparently they’re trying to make it a centre for film studios/creatives etc. 25 mins to London on the train, next to the A13. Riverside flats £230k, why couldn’t it be the next big thing?

    http://ourpurfleet.com/

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/77462805
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,245
    Fishing said:

    moonshine said:

    There were a couple of pertinent comment in today’s FT by a reader. Namely that the housing boom of the late 90s to 2008 featured more houses being built than working age adults entering the population.

    Housing demand was always going to increase faster than the population because of the decline in the average size of households and longer life expectancy.

    Sure. But I think the point is that the massive inflation in house prices has not been principally driven by demographic or supply effects.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    edited June 2021

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    It's cold and wet. And the cricket is on. What else do you want?
    World Test Final rained off again. Wasn't a good idea to hold it in England, and if it had to be, why not Lords, instead of Southampton? Or even The Oval?
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,847

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    The situation is different though, the irish are not british citizens and can only vote here while resident here. Being a british citizen still would however give you the overseas voting rights such as Sandpit and others like him have. If the whole republic were getting votes at all our elections I am sure that would soon be stopped
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    isam said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    Purfleet in Essex is being done up - apparently they’re trying to make it a centre for film studios/creatives etc. 25 mins to London on the train, next to the A13. Riverside flats £230k, why couldn’t it be the next big thing?

    http://ourpurfleet.com/

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/77462805
    When I worked around there it was one of the areas where only loan sharks would give credit. Banks, HP companies would touch the residents.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,176
    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    England might be OK with it if it is reciprocal, but with the bigoted xenophobia of many Scottish nationalists, it may not be.
    Yes, life in Scotland is so terrible for English people that my English parents have spent almost their entire adult life there and couldn't imagine living down here anymore.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,847
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    The situation is different though, the irish are not british citizens and can only vote here while resident here. Being a british citizen still would however give you the overseas voting rights such as Sandpit and others like him have. If the whole republic were getting votes at all our elections I am sure that would soon be stopped
    And I would say I wouldnt have a problem with scots resident in the RuK voting in our elections. However run this counterfactual....2014 the scots vote yes. 2017 Corbyn wins on the back of non resident dual scots/brit nationals exercising the overseas vote option....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2021

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited June 2021
    The trends we have seen in the UK since Brexit and in Hartlepool and Chesham and Amersham are the same trends we now see across the western world.

    Whereas in the 1970s parties of the centre right won both the highest earning voters and the highest educated voters, now parties of the centre left and liberal left win the highest educated voters and graduates, though centre right parties still do well amongst the most affluent

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/29/educated-voters-leftward-shift-is-surprisingly-old-and-international
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021
    moonshine said:

    There were a couple of pertinent comment in today’s FT by a reader. Namely that the housing boom of the late 90s to 2008 featured more houses being built than working age adults entering the population.

    And secondly that without other reform, a boom in house building will do little but provide additional collateral to feed the asset price bubble.

    I wish Philip (and the uk government) would think a bit more carefully about all this before they rush to build over the green belt.

    What a weird and fallacious metric to choose.

    As far as I know that claim is only true if you're netting off retirees leaving the working age population - but retirees are still alive, not dead yet, and still living in their home - and the quantity of retirees living in their own home still has increased dramatically over the past generation as people live longer. So why would you not be counting them?

    If we evicted everyone from their home at 65 then yes we'd have plenty of homes for people who are working. Is that your proposal?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    And SKY had the perfect opportunity to get rid....
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    Why just Scots in rUK? What about the ones in rWorld? Like… oh, I don’t know… Sweden for example? :smiley:
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited June 2021

    Coming Soon!


    Sturgeon can say what she wants, the UK government has made clear it will refuse an indyref2 for a generation and Union matters are reserved to Westminster under the Scotland Act 1998.

    Given Sturgeon has ruled out declaring UDI (which is why Salmond and ultra hard Nats loathe her), as long as the Tories continue to have a majority at Westminster there will thus be no indyref2 and no change to the Union with Scotland
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,176
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    The situation is different though, the irish are not british citizens and can only vote here while resident here. Being a british citizen still would however give you the overseas voting rights such as Sandpit and others like him have. If the whole republic were getting votes at all our elections I am sure that would soon be stopped
    Yes but as I explained my claim to a retained British citizenship is not based on being Scottish, but on long-term residence in rUK, parentage and (if it has any bearing) marriage. Certainly on the basis of parentage I would qualify, just as my kids who were born abroad qualify for British citizenship based on parentage. I am not advocating for the entire population of Scotland to retain British citizenship. I don't know what happened when (some of) the Irish became independent. I assume most of them lost their claim to British citizenship.
    FWIW I don't agree with overseas voting rights anyway. I never exercised mine.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    edited June 2021

    isam said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    Purfleet in Essex is being done up - apparently they’re trying to make it a centre for film studios/creatives etc. 25 mins to London on the train, next to the A13. Riverside flats £230k, why couldn’t it be the next big thing?

    http://ourpurfleet.com/

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/77462805
    When I worked around there it was one of the areas where only loan sharks would give credit. Banks, HP companies would touch the residents.
    Yes it’s not very nice at the moment, but is in a great location and lots of potential. Some cute cottages, right on the Thames, great transport links, countryside nearby too

    I cycle there when I do my Thames path ride, and have a bite to eat in the RSPB overlooking Rainham Marshes
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    It's cold and wet. And the cricket is on. What else do you want?
    World Test Final rained off again. Wasn't a good idea to hold it in England, and if it had to be, why not Lords, instead of Southampton? Or even The Oval?
    Cricket isn't actually a sport, but a traditional rain dance ceremony.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    DavidL said:

    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368

    That's a disaster. He was superb against England.
    Nope. Brexit is a disaster. HS2 is a disaster. Boris is a disaster.

    One football player out of a squad of 26 being unavailable for a soccer match is not a disaster.

    The whole team were superb against England.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    It's cold and wet. And the cricket is on. What else do you want?
    World Test Final rained off again. Wasn't a good idea to hold it in England, and if it had to be, why not Lords, instead of Southampton? Or even The Oval?
    Hotel facilities, I believe. Actually, I think holding it here was a good idea given the conditions are conducive to producing a result and don't necessarily favour one side or the other.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2021
    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Are you suggesting I am wrong over my long held opinion that foreign travel should have been far more limited since the start of the pandemic? And those that travelled without good reason have been importing COVID and new variants into the UK, which has caused a lot of problems?

    I would argue we would have been free a long time ago if the government had take a far more aggressive "curtain twitcher" approach to unnecessary foreign travel.

    And actually the 1 in 200 figure quoted in the Times isn't a "just", its actually quite high. Far higher than really you want, especially if you are going to let millions travel in and out.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    There's a bit of circularity at play here, though, no? Who sets the details for a referendum? The Scottish parliament. Who votes for the Scottish parliament? The Scots. Who decides who constitutes 'the Scots' for the purposes of that vote? The Scottish parliament. And so on.

    I'm not saying there's an easy way out of this, just pointing out the circularity.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    Can you still get tickets to The Open golf? I'd love to go.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    edited June 2021
    A needless social media post could cost Scotland. Hope not

    ‘ EXCLUSIVE: Scotland star Andy Robertson swiftly DELETES video of him playing ping-pong with Covid-positive Billy Gilmour and John McGinn last night... as Scots deny ANY close contacts in the squad’

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1406917543059726337?s=21
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    Funny how they keep telling us we’re not allowed a referendum, while simultaneously micro-managing the details.
    I wouldn't assume that Scots living in rUK are massively pro-Union anyway. I'm not, and my sense from talking to others is that for a lot of people the calculations changed after 2016. Speaking personally, I see mostly upside for me from Scottish independence. I get a Scottish/EU passport. I get to stick it to the Tories. And I'm not personally liable for the fiscal costs of an independent Scotland, so if it doesn't work out well I'm not on the hook. This all sounds pretty selfish and irresponsible, of course - which is why I wouldn't give the vote on this to Scots in rUK. But if they do give me the vote, I'd definitely use it!
    I wonder what the polling says on this, I don't remember seeing any.
    You are of course assuming you would get to keep both the british nationality and have scots as a dual. While dual nationality is a thing I suggest that the fact it would give the entirety of a now foreign nations population to vote in our elections might change that calculation somewhat.
    My working assumption is that there would be a common travel area and Scottish citizens would be allowed to vote in England as the Irish are. The UK is traditionally fine with dual citizenship anyway - my wife has dual nationality based on her parents' country of origin and two of my children have dual nationality based on their place of birth. And I think I would qualify for British nationality based on residency, marriage and parentage (my parents are English) as well as Scottish nationality based on birth.
    England might be OK with it if it is reciprocal, but with the bigoted xenophobia of many Scottish nationalists, it may not be.
    … said the bigoted xenophobe.

    (See how it works?)
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,550
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    This shows the length of time required for regeneration. It takes a good 30 years for it to be effective.
    It certainly takes a while, but maybe not 30 years

    My drive home yesterday took me right through the new King’s Cross. The Google HQ (to be), St Martin’s, Coal Drop Yards

    It was absolutely rammed. Terrifically heartening. The northern King’s X regeneration is only 15 years old. It is also superbly done - and blessed with great transport from the start, of course
    Just to chip in:
    1) How can you fail to get your bearings in Docklands? It's a grid. If you're facing north and turn left, you're facing west. And so on.
    This is not a point in favour of or against grid systems or more organic layouts, nor, really, about the favourabilty of otherwise of being able to get your bearings. Several members of my family have absolutely no sense of direction whatsoever. I love them very much, but am baffled by their lack of ability to get from a to b intuitively.

    2) Everything Leon observes about London I could also echo about Manchester. It feels buzzing, cheerful, optimistic. And the development! The growth! Salford Quays now also looks like downtown Chicago. Many planners hate it because it is sterile; I like it because it is clean and pleasant and not covered in either litter or graffiti (possibly because much of the space is in private hands). It's a little odd however how the quays end so abruptly and transition into suburban-industrial - not what you expect on the edge of a city centre environment. Give it another twenty years or so though... Similarly, Ancoats, New Islington, Spinningfields, St. Georges, New Bailey, Middlewood Locks, Angel Gardens - all neighbourhoods which were desolate post-industrial emptiness 5, 10, 15 years ago are now absolutely thriving and part of the city centre. You can see the same process about to happen in Strangeways, Miles Platting, Collyhurst and Ardwick. The effective size of Manchester/Salford City Centre is now four times what it was in the eighties.
    Yes, the death of the city was announced prematurely. They will adapt. Big ones like London and Manc will get younger

    Seeing King’s Cross jammed with people on-a-not-especially-nice Sunday was quite a shock. It was busier than it ever was pre-covid.

    But of course it has the perfect mix. Media companies, soon-to-be Google, dozens of new restaurants and bars, new hotels, galleries, museums, tons of new residential, colleges like St Martin’s, the new St Pancras, the canal walk to Camden, UCL and Bloomsbury to the south…

    And all of it in excellent new or repurposed architecture

    Basically if you were going to design a thriving new urban centre from scratch it would look like King’s Cross. Sadly not everywhere has the transport and architectural assets of Kings X, but it’s still a good template.

    It’s quite a mind-change for any older Londoner to hold up King’s X as an exemplar that should be envied and copied - but that’s the case.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    Stocky said:

    tlg86 said:

    So I'm going to The Open next month, and these are the hoops that one has jump through to go:

    https://www.theopen.com/covid-19

    Two friends of mine have decided not to bother with the hassle - one asked "are we going to have to do this to watch Arsenal?"

    The bit that I particularly object to is:

    All individuals will be required to have their own ticket on their own smartphone (excluding under 16s), and ticket purchasers will be able to transfer tickets onto their guests within the app.

    I appreciate that the vast majority of people do own one, but neither of my parents do and I think it's wrong that companies can discriminate on this basis.

    Can you still get tickets to The Open golf? I'd love to go.
    No, the government agreed to let them have 32,000 a day and essentially that's the number of tickets held over from last year (i.e. those of us that didn't ask for a refund). That said, people can ask for a refund if they don't want to do all of the stuff. Whether they might reconsider putting tickets on sale if there are a lot of requests for refunds, I don't know. My guess, is probably not.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    isam said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of planning, or the lack of it, look at this very recent photo of Docklands in London. It looks like a spruced-up version of classic Chicago, or like a western Hong Kong - minus the Chinese tanks. It looks amazing

    I can remember when this was all total dereliction, in the early 80s. Then Thatcher proposed ‘some redevelopment’, letting capitalism do its thing. Everyone chortled in derision. And here we are

    The development of Docklands also required significant infrastructure investment, including the DLR and Jubilee line extension, to make it work. And now Crossrail - because the existing infrastructure is now creaking at the seams (certainly pre-pandemic, almost certainly afterwards, too). Similarly there is huge potential for housing and other development (for over 100k people IIRC) down the Old Kent Road, but it's only feasible if the infrastructure is put in place (Bakerloo line extension).
    I should also add that Docklands is a horrible soulless place, but clearly some people like living there (or at least owning property there) so each to their own.
    Lefties have been decrying Docklands since Thatcher laid the first brick. And you’re still at it. Yawn

    A larger point about London. Yesterday, driving back into the city after a week away, I got the first sense of optimism about the capital, after 18 months of gloom

    It wasn’t the weather. It was cool and grey. It was something else in the air.

    I wonder if the city is getting physically younger. A lot of middle aged and older people have decamped to the shires.
    Apologies for boring you by expressing my opinion. Have you ever worked at Canary Wharf? I have. It is a depressing, soulless place. What I found was that I could never get my bearings. Now admittedly I have no sense of direction. But I think the problem with the Wharf is that everywhere basically looks the same. And the tall buildings block out the light, so the subconscious signals from the direction of the sunlight aren't there either.
    These observations are not political in nature - I think the redevelopment of docklands has overall been a good thing, although transport infrastructure has always lagged and the displacement and exclusion of the local population has been pretty bad too. So please don't try to open a new front in the culture war on this - that really would be yawn-inducing.
    When Docklands was a big flat nothing and Thatcher proposed the Docklands Development Corp, lefties mocked

    When she laid the first brick, at Canary Wharf, lefties chortled, satirically

    When they finished the first phase - 1 Canada Square - lefties yelled ‘there’s no infrastructure, it’s pointless’

    When the Tories installed infrastructure - the DLR, Limehouse Cut - lefties sneered and said ‘the road is too expensive’

    When the government extended the Jubilee Line, the left sniffed and said ‘it’s just finance, no one will live there’

    Now, when developers build shops, restaurants, bars, museums, hotels, and thousands of apartments, the left says ‘oh it’s so soulless, and I can’t find my way around because it’s all new and I’m a feckin idiot’

    And so the dance continues
    Purfleet in Essex is being done up - apparently they’re trying to make it a centre for film studios/creatives etc. 25 mins to London on the train, next to the A13. Riverside flats £230k, why couldn’t it be the next big thing?

    http://ourpurfleet.com/

    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/77462805
    When I worked around there it was one of the areas where only loan sharks would give credit. Banks, HP companies would touch the residents.
    Yes it’s not very nice at the moment, but is in a great location and lots of potential. Some cute cottages, right on the Thames, great transport links, countryside nearby too

    I cycle there when I do my Thames path ride, and have a bite to eat in the RSPB overlooking Rainham Marshes
    Yes, surprising to come across those cottages, isn't it! Have all the explosives been cleared from the Marshes now; when I was very young it was a firing range. Although I have been to the RSPB site.
    Seem to remember the pub's not too bad, either.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited June 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    I meant across the country to draw a wider conclusion, anybody can pick on specific seat. And you need to break it down more than median age. The change in university attendance across age bands has been so dramatic that it needs careful analysis.

    Did you know that bald men are more likely to vote Tory than their hairier counterparts? Clearly going bald drives people to the right in politics.
    ...


    What aircraft is used in that illustration? I've always wondered...
    Having looked at images of the Bristol Beaufighter, I don't think it is. The Beaufighter had a much stubbier nose which the propellers protruded in front of.

    And of course, it's not the Mosquito, because that has a rounded cockpit and no gun turret.
    Avro Anson, or derivative thereof?
    Thought it was an Anson.

    The Ventura actually looks more likely now my internet's let me get to Page 2.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    Cookie said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    There's a bit of circularity at play here, though, no? Who sets the details for a referendum? The Scottish parliament. Who votes for the Scottish parliament? The Scots. Who decides who constitutes 'the Scots' for the purposes of that vote? The Scottish parliament. And so on.

    I'm not saying there's an easy way out of this, just pointing out the circularity.
    Actually it is the UK government which will decide whether to allow an indyref2 or not, for now it won't and it is the UK government who also has to agree who can vote in it if it ever allows a second independence referendum
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    There's a bit of circularity at play here, though, no? Who sets the details for a referendum? The Scottish parliament. Who votes for the Scottish parliament? The Scots. Who decides who constitutes 'the Scots' for the purposes of that vote? The Scottish parliament. And so on.

    I'm not saying there's an easy way out of this, just pointing out the circularity.
    Actually it is the UK government which will decide whether to allow an indyref2 or not, for now it won't and it is the UK government who also has to agree who can vote in it if it ever allows a second independence referendum
    Well yes - I was pointing out the circularity with Malcolm's argument.

    Though there is still a degree of circularity with any argument about who gets to say who votes.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    isam said:

    A needless social media post could cost Scotland. Hope not

    ‘ EXCLUSIVE: Scotland star Andy Robertson swiftly DELETES video of him playing ping-pong with Covid-positive Billy Gilmour and John McGinn last night... as Scots deny ANY close contacts in the squad’

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1406917543059726337?s=21

    Presumably players are only getting banned for a positive test rather than anything else? Otherwise they'd all be self-isolating given they shared a changing room at Wembley on Friday.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Cookie said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Coming Soon!


    lol. When will Sturgeon’s fans hear the reedy music of feartiness?
    If only there was a way for a brave Unionist pm to call the fearties’ bluff and put the issue to bed.
    https://static.dw.com/image/19065588_401.jpg

    I see the brave lads are back to one of their favourite thumb-on-the-scales exercises


    As opposed to the SNP wanting their thumb on the scale ?
    Just in case you are as thick as you make out, it is for Scotland to decide who votes in a Scotland referendum. I know you clowns think we are just a colony but reality will bite at some point.
    There's a bit of circularity at play here, though, no? Who sets the details for a referendum? The Scottish parliament. Who votes for the Scottish parliament? The Scots. Who decides who constitutes 'the Scots' for the purposes of that vote? The Scottish parliament. And so on.

    I'm not saying there's an easy way out of this, just pointing out the circularity.
    Totally meaningless, as it could be applied to any legislature on the planet:

    Who sets the details for a referendum? The Swedish parliament. Who votes for the Swedish parliament? The Swedes. Who decides who constitutes 'the Swedes' for the purposes of that vote? The Swedish parliament. And so on.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited June 2021

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Are you suggesting I am wrong over my long held opinion that foreign travel should have been far more limited since the start of the pandemic? And those that travelled without good reason have been importing COVID and new variants into the UK, which has caused a lot of problems?

    I would argue we would have been free a long time ago if the government had take a far more aggressive "curtain twitcher" approach to unnecessary foreign travel.

    And actually the 1 in 200 figure quoted in the Times isn't a "just", its actually quite high. Far higher than really you want, especially if you are going to let millions travel in and out.
    People want to go on holiday. It is part of their normal. Not yours that's fine I get it but for many if not most people it is normal and something that provides them with much needed relief from their daily grind without Covid and moreso with Covid.

    It is the responsibility of journalists imo to put over the concerns of the people who pay their salaries.

    She has been doing this.

    It is immaterial what the "answer" is to the holiday question it is important that it is asked. And time and again just in case ministers think it's something they don't need to be aware of.
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    DavidL said:

    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368

    That's a disaster. He was superb against England.
    Nope. Brexit is a disaster. HS2 is a disaster. Boris is a disaster.

    One football player out of a squad of 26 being unavailable for a soccer match is not a disaster.

    The whole team were superb against England.
    Is this one of those posts where you deliberately write the opposite for effect?

    if so, chapeau.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    DavidL said:

    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368

    That's a disaster. He was superb against England.
    Nope. Brexit is a disaster. HS2 is a disaster. Boris is a disaster.

    One football player out of a squad of 26 being unavailable for a soccer match is not a disaster.

    The whole team were superb against England.
    No, a superb team would have got a win. Against a very poor England.

    They both survived - and provided a shite spectacle for the fans. Not much more to be said.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2021
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Are you suggesting I am wrong over my long held opinion that foreign travel should have been far more limited since the start of the pandemic? And those that travelled without good reason have been importing COVID and new variants into the UK, which has caused a lot of problems?

    I would argue we would have been free a long time ago if the government had take a far more aggressive "curtain twitcher" approach to unnecessary foreign travel.

    And actually the 1 in 200 figure quoted in the Times isn't a "just", its actually quite high. Far higher than really you want, especially if you are going to let millions travel in and out.
    People want to go on holiday. It is part of their normal. Not yours that's fine I get it but for many if not most people it is normal and something that provides them with much needed relief from their daily grind without Covid and moreso with Covid.

    It is the responsibility of journalists imo to put over the concerns of the people who pay their salaries.

    She has been doing this.

    It is immaterial what the "answer" is to the holiday question it is important that it is asked. And time and again just in case ministers think it's something they don't need to be aware of.
    No its totally irresponsible from Burley. She is forming the question as if there really isn't any benefit to getting properly vaccinated, all because in her opinion foreign travel should be allowed once you have had them.

    When Kwasi said its important to protect you, your family and the community, she actually said that isn't enough benefit.

    That's quite different from asking a government minister when they think a return to more foreign travel might be allowed. What conditions need to be met etc. I think that is a valid question. The real answer is not this summer.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    edited June 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    I meant across the country to draw a wider conclusion, anybody can pick on specific seat. And you need to break it down more than median age. The change in university attendance across age bands has been so dramatic that it needs careful analysis.

    Did you know that bald men are more likely to vote Tory than their hairier counterparts? Clearly going bald drives people to the right in politics.
    ...


    What aircraft is used in that illustration? I've always wondered...
    Having looked at images of the Bristol Beaufighter, I don't think it is. The Beaufighter had a much stubbier nose which the propellers protruded in front of.

    And of course, it's not the Mosquito, because that has a rounded cockpit and no gun turret.
    Avro Anson, or derivative thereof?
    Thought it was an Anson.

    The Ventura actually looks more likely now my internet's let me get to Page 2.
    Pretty sure that is what it is - further, the diagram was probably cribbed from this diagram

    image

    EDIT - worth reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ramrod_16
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited June 2021

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
    Again that's not the point.

    It is her job to keep the govt thinking about these things and to reflect many of her viewers' concerns.

    She is doing that.

    What do you think the policy on holidays now should be?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    isam said:

    A needless social media post could cost Scotland. Hope not

    ‘ EXCLUSIVE: Scotland star Andy Robertson swiftly DELETES video of him playing ping-pong with Covid-positive Billy Gilmour and John McGinn last night... as Scots deny ANY close contacts in the squad’

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1406917543059726337?s=21

    This is typical Scotland actually - we can develop a myth about Scotland being about to heroically qualify for the second round in the first time this century when due to a stroke of bad luck half the squad become unavailable.

    Whereas in England we generally develop a myth about how we would have gone through if we weren't either a) crap at penalties, or b) crap. Or c) facing some cheating Argentine.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,280

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    I meant across the country to draw a wider conclusion, anybody can pick on specific seat. And you need to break it down more than median age. The change in university attendance across age bands has been so dramatic that it needs careful analysis.

    Did you know that bald men are more likely to vote Tory than their hairier counterparts? Clearly going bald drives people to the right in politics.
    ...


    What aircraft is used in that illustration? I've always wondered...
    Having looked at images of the Bristol Beaufighter, I don't think it is. The Beaufighter had a much stubbier nose which the propellers protruded in front of.

    And of course, it's not the Mosquito, because that has a rounded cockpit and no gun turret.
    Avro Anson, or derivative thereof?
    Thought it was an Anson.

    The Ventura actually looks more likely now my internet's let me get to Page 2.
    It was determined last night (mainly by @viewcode I believe) that it was a Lockheed Ventura. My guess of its predecessor, the Hudson, wasn't bad.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2021
    Tom Stoltman has become the first Scot to win the World's Strongest Man title.

    Put that one down as a win for Team GB.....throws hand grenade and runs away.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,280

    DavidL said:

    BBC News - Billy Gilmour: Scotland midfielder tests positive for Covid-19
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57551368

    That's a disaster. He was superb against England.
    Nope. Brexit is a disaster. HS2 is a disaster. Boris is a disaster.

    One football player out of a squad of 26 being unavailable for a soccer match is not a disaster.

    The whole team were superb against England.
    No, a superb team would have got a win. Against a very poor England.

    They both survived - and provided a shite spectacle for the fans. Not much more to be said.
    Unionism, we'll both be be shite together, in a nutshell.

    I fact I can see a slogan coming out of it..
This discussion has been closed.