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The widespread notion that LAB can automatically assume 2nd prefs of LDs is not supported by real li

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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This is why I hate VAR.

    That was more of a penalty than the one VAR awarded against Robertson in the Brighton match earlier on this season.

    Quite remarkable that VAR didn't even check it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    This is why I hate VAR.

    That was more of a penalty than the one VAR awarded against Robertson in the Brighton match earlier on this season.

    Quite remarkable that VAR didn't even check it.
    Heck it was more of a penalty than the one David Alaba conceded yesterday.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    Toms said:

    Understandably people seem to be focused on the covid hospitalization rate and the consequent "long covid" rate. Do many vaccinated people who suffer the virus also get long covid?

    I can't believe the rates would be very high at all, your body has "seen" the virus once you're vaccinated; the novel part is knocked out the equation which is what makes it so risky (I think !)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Can people not just die any more? Though passed away is better than just passed, which always invites supplementing with "wind."
  • This is why I hate VAR.

    That was more of a penalty than the one VAR awarded against Robertson in the Brighton match earlier on this season.

    Not PGMOL refs in this one though. I've seen Sterling do that so many times: nowhere to go, heads for the byline nowhere near goal, puts a little stutter in his step in the hope he can trip over a foot...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    This is why I hate VAR.

    That was more of a penalty than the one VAR awarded against Robertson in the Brighton match earlier on this season.

    Quite remarkable that VAR didn't even check it.
    Heck it was more of a penalty than the one David Alaba conceded yesterday.
    Very surprised that wasn't given
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Reuters:

    LONDON, June 18 (Reuters) - The European Union on Friday lost its bid to speed up deliveries of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccines, the first of its legal challenges against the drugmaker that rocked the bloc as it scrambled to shore up supplies.

    https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/astrazeneca-says-eu-loses-legal-bid-more-vaccine-supplies-by-end-june-2021-06-18/
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1405953435913031685

    Chaos in LOTO this evening, as Starmer’s Comms director Ben Nunn, and his deputy Paul Ovenden quit their roles
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    England don’t deserve to qualify with this performance
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Quality dive
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,478
    So angry with this performance. So lazy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    Can I self identify as welsh? This is awful

    Self identifying as Welsh is likely to lead you being sectioned,

    Why would anyone want to self identify as Welsh is beyond me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,505
    Absolutely nothing flash on the pitch, though.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Blimey, England are so slow..
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,240
    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692
    You'd think the weather would be perfect for both teams. 12 degrees and raining.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,267

    So angry with this performance. So lazy.

    Hopeless performance
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    I wonder whether the Euro final will be allowed in London on July 11, given current travel rules and the Delta variant?

    Current talking point on Euro Twitter.

    At least for some a squirrel for the Az judgement !
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,745
    First scrum in this game.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Fuck me.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,957
    We should have brought on Gazza and Sheringham. With McManaman, arguably man of the match in '96!
  • Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    More Johnson , surely: massively over-promised, under-delivered, and insisting everything is great while we're all watching the shambles unfold
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,821
    Booing at the end...

  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,903
    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    But honestly, when was the last time England played any better than this on ITV?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,478
    Foxy said:

    Booing at the end...

    They deserve to be booed
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,514
    Utter garbage from England. Like the bad old days 2018 just a flash in the pan. Rubbish
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,957
    Foxy said:

    Booing at the end...

    ...for a change!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,514

    Can I self identify as welsh? This is awful

    Self identifying as Welsh is likely to lead you being sectioned,

    Why would anyone want to self identify as Welsh is beyond me.
    Their team play with passion. No idea what our lot were doing. Trying to game the next round?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    geoffw said:

    First scrum in this game.

    Followed by a huge clearance to touch.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    edited June 2021
    Not a good performance. However major tournament winners never win all of the 7 games in a tournament. We need to be more on it on Tuesday.

    Decent effort by Scotland. Four points could be enough for them.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    That's a good result for both teams. England sure to qualify and Scotland need to beat Croatia to qualify.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230

    Utter garbage from England. Like the bad old days 2018 just a flash in the pan. Rubbish

    I agree. They were poor.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,745
    "That is a scoreline that will be celebrated the length and breadth of Scotland" - STV commentator.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,957
    Cookie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    But honestly, when was the last time England played any better than this on ITV?
    1996?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Bring back the birch.

    This England team deserve it.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    We should have brought on Gazza and Sheringham. With McManaman, arguably man of the match in '96!

    They couldn't have done any worse by calling Geoff Hurst out of retirement TBF.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    Standard Southgate England...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656
    The England football team matches the government for complacent lethargy.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    I guess the nice middle aged lady I see around town with two small English flags attached to her bicycle basket may have to take them off soon.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,913
    We'll take the point :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,615
    edited June 2021
    So my daughter persuaded me to watch at least some of the bladder kicking. God England are terrible. Where was the play making, where was the running off the ball. Players stood around in the middle of the pitch making no effort to threaten the defence and with their hands in the air asking for the ball. Why? What is the point of passing to someone who is stood there looking as threatening as the Eddystone Lighthouse?

    As a rule I do want England to do well in sporting competitions but by the end I was hoping the Scots would sneak a winner. They deserved it more.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Keeps the next group games interesting. For as poor as England were Scotland put a real shift in. Gilmour should start next game, huge talent.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    What an utter shit England performance
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,757
    Let me guess.. two hours of boredom, no goals, no idea of how to break down a defence.. same old same old..
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,718
    From a Scotland perspective sort of predictable...lose the first game, hang on for a nervy draw in the second to give you a shot of qualifying if you win the third. But every time it plays out this way we get a humping in the final game.

    Hey ho, on balance I'll still take it :-D
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,869
    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    He was present but not involved.
    image
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,821
    Credit to Scotland. They were the better team by some distance
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,031
    Well now...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478

    Can I self identify as welsh? This is awful

    Croeso i’r genedl, brawd!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656
    Andy_JS said:
    Given how the game looked that shows a massive England under-performance.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,699
    edited June 2021
    Good to see football is properly back.

    England playing walking football in a tournament, causing the fans to throw their telly out the window, Scotland celebrating a draw like they have one hand on the Jules Rimet Trophy....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    What a boring game.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,866
    Surprised we haven't seen Leon gloating about England's defeat, sorry, draw.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,684
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm trying to understand this football thing. Is it actually in the rules that every other pass needs to be back to the defenders in your own half?

    Not exactly, but just as government makes better sense if you think it is run by a cabal of its enemies, watching England on a bad day makes better sense if you think you get points for sending the ball over or round the net while falling over, and that the qualification for playing for Scotland is looking like a career criminal.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    Am I correct to think that this particular football game was slower than cricket?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,919

    Standard Southgate England...

    It's remarkable how a squad with so many players who have won stuff or been in major finals this season can be turned into something so dull and ineffective. I don't even buy the "they're all knackered" argument, because that surely applies to many other nations as well. I'd feel better if it had been a decent match and Scotland had nicked it with a late goal, England slogging on with no ideas is worse.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Standard Southgate England...

    I am surprised people think we normally play good football under him - the World Cup was just as turgid - Scraped past Tunisia, thrashed Paraguay, reserves lost to Belgium's reserves; Crap vs Colombia, efficient but boring vs Sweden, knocked out by Croatia, crap against Belgium
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    glw said:

    Standard Southgate England...

    It's remarkable how a squad with so many players who have won stuff or been in major finals this season can be turned into something so dull and ineffective. I don't even buy the "they're all knackered" argument, because that surely applies to many other nations as well. I'd feel better if it had been a decent match and Scotland had nicked it with a late goal, England slogging on with no ideas is worse.
    No its Southgate, he takes all these world class players that we see every week ripping it up in the EPL abd Champions League and drills a conservative negative safety first at all costs approach.

    It was the right approach in 2018, because we didn't really have the talent. Now loads of talent, but he sticks to the same slow slow slow slow approach.

    Watch France, Holland, Belgium, Italy, they all play with intensity.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Well anyway, time to forget about that miserable performance and look forward.

    What does Wales's route to the final look like?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    isam said:

    Standard Southgate England...

    I am surprised people think we normally play good football under him - the World Cup was just as turgid - Scraped past Tunisia, thrashed Paraguay, reserves lost to Belgium's reserves; Crap vs Colombia, efficient but boring vs Sweden, knocked out by Croatia, crap against Belgium
    The thing is the coach, Steve Holland....he is the famed Crewe youth coach who brought through all the anazing attacking talent from there and Crewe famed at the time for playing fantastic creative exciting football.

    But old waistcoat inner defender...no no never give that ball away, what we want to do is pass it around at walking pace for 75 mins.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    Well anyway, time to forget about that miserable performance and look forward.

    What does Wales's route to the final look like?

    Short. Very short.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,821
    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    Yes apart from Stones header, no real chance.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,883

    Can I self identify as welsh? This is awful

    Wearing my Cardiff uni hoodie all day tomorrow
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Anyway, thousands of Scotland fans will be pleased to go home tomorrow with a well-earned point and a huge spike in the delta variant.

    https://twitter.com/StigAbell/status/1405995233662361608?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    isam said:

    Standard Southgate England...

    I am surprised people think we normally play good football under him - the World Cup was just as turgid - Scraped past Tunisia, thrashed Paraguay, reserves lost to Belgium's reserves; Crap vs Colombia, efficient but boring vs Sweden, knocked out by Croatia, crap against Belgium
    You're only saying that because of the Knee.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    You can really tell that Kinabalu has plenty of experience spinning for lost causes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363

    What a boring game.

    Boring but yet tense because of what was at stake.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Chameleon said:

    Well anyway, time to forget about that miserable performance and look forward.

    What does Wales's route to the final look like?

    Short. Very short.
    Stranger things have happened. Look at Denmark. And Greece.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442

    Surprised we haven't seen Leon gloating about England's defeat, sorry, draw.

    Perhaps Leon is in Thetford suffering from a surfeit of Lampreys.


  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Standard Southgate England...

    I am surprised people think we normally play good football under him - the World Cup was just as turgid - Scraped past Tunisia, thrashed Paraguay, reserves lost to Belgium's reserves; Crap vs Colombia, efficient but boring vs Sweden, knocked out by Croatia, crap against Belgium
    You're only saying that because of the Knee.
    Ah you can read me like a book!!!

    (written in a language you don't understand)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,745
    Chameleon said:

    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    You can really tell that Kinabalu has plenty of experience spinning for lost causes.
    "Clean sheet a bonus." Pity about the lack of goals when goal difference doesn't decide third place.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    Not quite saying that. It's just that a rule of football is that where both sides are happy with a draw you usually get a draw. That's what happened here.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    Not quite saying that. It's just that a rule of football is that where both sides are happy with a draw you usually get a draw. That's what happened here.
    Scotland may well look on that as 2 points dropped.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/south-sudan-beats-scotland-4-1-201102083523

    From the days when the daily mash actually had a funny writer (though he always started better than he finished).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    These kind of games are easily forgotten if the team does ok on the whole

    1-1 vs ROI in Italia 90
    1-1 vs Switzerland in 1996

    The tournaments are still looked back at fondly. Apart from both Holland and Germany games in 90 & 96, I struggle to think of quality England performances at a tournament… and we only won one of those four!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    Too risky.....you know Jude Bellingham looks great, noooooo too risky ...Sancho oh no... Calvert-Lewin ohhhhh no no no.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,757
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    I didnt watch it but I wonder how many times a player actually beat a man when going forwards at pace. I would hazard a guess at zero.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    Well. If we are relying on not beating the Czechs then we certainly have played ourselves into suitable form.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    Too risky.....you know Jude Bellingham looks great, noooooo too risky ...Sancho oh no... Calvert-Lewin ohhhhh no no no.
    Sancho for Rice or Phillips with 20 to go would have made sense. Only need one holding midfielder really, and Mount can play deeper

    Ho hum - betting for a living means opposing England regularly. I have reached the stage where I’d rather win money and don’t feel at all conflicted about hoping England don’t score/win. Not quite there with the Arsenal, but getting close
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,596
    FFS. We were awful. Just scared to lose. Big occasion got to our young players. Credit to Scotland, they edged it (although we certainly should have had a pen).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271

    FFS. We were awful. Just scared to lose. Big occasion got to our young players. Credit to Scotland, they edged it (although we certainly should have had a pen).

    Performance worse than the current vaccine numbers ;-)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    isam said:

    These kind of games are easily forgotten if the team does ok on the whole

    1-1 vs ROI in Italia 90
    1-1 vs Switzerland in 1996

    The tournaments are still looked back at fondly. Apart from both Holland and Germany games in 90 & 96, I struggle to think of quality England performances at a tournament… and we only won one of those four!

    Exactly! We are not Brazil 70 or Holland 74 or France 84. We've only got a couple of great games in us and we have to use them with spot on timing. That plus the breaks = trophy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,968
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ClippP said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Maybe this Century will see a reversion back to Conservative/Liberal and Labour will decline... Nothing more than a 20th century fad that only won with four leaders (McDonald, Atlee, Wilson and Blair) in 100 years?

    It would be amusing if the Liberals in one form or another were to win an outright majority how long it would take them, like Trudeau, to suddenly understand the wonders of FPTP.
    Attachment of Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party of Canada hardly sudden, as Grits have been contesting elections - provincial as well as federal - on that basis since before 1867. And while they've endured several severe defeats under FPTP (just 34 of 308 seats in 2011 GE) for most of confederation the Liberals have been THE Party of Government in the Great White North.

    Of course the British Liberal Party had zero problem with FPTP in the age of Gladstone v Disraeli, and for decades thereafter. Wonder why?
    No need to wonder, Mr Irish. The 1910 Liberal government was on the point of changing the voting system to a proportional one - but then it was blow off course by other issues, like the Irish question, women's suffrage and the German invasion of Belgium.

    Nevertheless, when the Irish Republic was set up, it was with the same proportional voting system, which it enjoys to this day and which the rest of the country was so cruelly deprived of.
    Cruelly deprived of...if not having PR is cruelty then sign me up as a masochist. By all means though continue to campaign on it as its a purely technocratic thing that most people really don't care about. You won't get it past a referendum
    Except that in Ireland, when the party in power has tried to get rid of PR via a referendum, the people have always voted to keep their PR system. The Irish people are both well informed and experienced, and know that a proper PR system gives them power over the politicians.
    Except that in the UK, when the party in power has tried to get rid of FPTP via a referendum, the people have always voted to keep their FPTP system. The British people are both well informed and experienced, and know that a proper FPTP system gives them power over the politicians.
    Get rid of FPTP and introducing PR are two quite different things, Mr Thompson. Conservatives always do their best to confuse people - and in your case they seem to have succeeded.

    When we last had a referendum, it was to introduce the AV system -- not to support or otherwise FPTP. And AV has nothing at all to do with PR.

    In fact, at the time of the referendum, the line from the Conservative Party was "If you really want PR, vote now against AV, and we will introduce PR at a later date." Surely you remember that?
    No I don't remember that. I'd love you to quote anything official from the Conservative Party saying they'd introduce PR, because I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
    You know full well that the Conservative Party says whatever is needed in order to win an election. Our PB Tories keep telling us that. In official documents they say one thing, and in the media their candidates and MPs will say something quite different. I think they call this "messaging". The aim, in this case, was to persuade Lib Dem voters not to support AV. I felt very tempted. But, of course, you cannot trust the Tories.
    You had a specific quote regarding the Tory party messaging during the AV referendum. I don't recall that ever being said.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    edited June 2021
    1. My 3-0 to England prediction will hold up I believe as one of PB's best.

    2. Looking at the Eriksen tribute during the Denmark-Belgium match. Thousands of closely packed fans vs the odd fan here and there at Wembley.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,903
    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    We won't, because we're on ITV again on Tuesday.
    I'm slightly obsessed with the ITV thing. There's absolutely no conceivable reason why England can only put in half-decent performances on BBC. And yet the stats don't lie. All of our most satisfying performances are on BBC. All of our most disappointing ones on ITV. It's weird.
    Surely ITV must notice? There must be a real dissonance being Mark Pougatch, trying to ramp up optimism but having never presented a decent performance.

    What this all does show is that England are disappointing at least half the time. By those standards, it wasn't a terrible performance.

    Anyway - nailed on another glumfest on Tuesady. But four 0oints hould be enough to see us through to the next round where hopefully we'll be on the BBC before going out to ITV in the quarters.
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