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The widespread notion that LAB can automatically assume 2nd prefs of LDs is not supported by real li

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  • glwglw Posts: 9,919

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    Too risky.....you know Jude Bellingham looks great, noooooo too risky ...Sancho oh no... Calvert-Lewin ohhhhh no no no.
    Germans are laughing at us not playing Sancho.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    glw said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    Too risky.....you know Jude Bellingham looks great, noooooo too risky ...Sancho oh no... Calvert-Lewin ohhhhh no no no.
    Germans are laughing at us not playing Sancho.
    Too risky, he might lose the ball or something.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    Not quite saying that. It's just that a rule of football is that where both sides are happy with a draw you usually get a draw. That's what happened here.
    Scotland may well look on that as 2 points dropped.
    Maybe they should - based on how they played - but they aren't. They look happy. Still very much in this tournament when they feared it was about to end and leave them with a dead rubber.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,903

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    I didnt watch it but I wonder how many times a player actually beat a man when going forwards at pace. I would hazard a guess at zero.
    Phil Foden looked pretty good going forwards.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    Cookie said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    I didnt watch it but I wonder how many times a player actually beat a man when going forwards at pace. I would hazard a guess at zero.
    Phil Foden looked pretty good going forwards.
    Reminded me of Arsene taking off Iwobi every time he looked threatening down the left.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harry Kane is never fully fit. Good job we picked a load of different strikers rather than 27 defenders....

    We picked another out and out number 9.
    He stayed on the bench.
    We did, but a very similar type of player. We don't have any "fox in the box" for instance. But we have so many right and left backs, we could have a full team of them.
    Only making 2 subs is strange though, when 5 are at your disposal.
    I didnt watch it but I wonder how many times a player actually beat a man when going forwards at pace. I would hazard a guess at zero.
    Phil Foden looked pretty good going forwards.
    Yeah, but old waistcoat it is far too risky to have Foden and Grealish on at the same time, where as most other countries would have both on in from the start.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    Rising infection rate means Britons in their 30s are now more at risk from Covid than blood clots from AstraZeneca's jab, analysis shows amid fears Pfizer shortage could scupper Freedom Day plans

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9701335/Britons-30s-risk-Covid-clots-AstraZenecas-jab-analysis-shows.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    Both national athems were tonight booed by opposing fans at the England vs Scotland Euro 2020 clash. Fans then greeted both teams' decisions to take the knee together in a show of solidarity against racial injustice with a mixture of cheers and boos.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    geoffw said:

    Chameleon said:

    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    You can really tell that Kinabalu has plenty of experience spinning for lost causes.
    "Clean sheet a bonus." Pity about the lack of goals when goal difference doesn't decide third place.
    We're going to finish 1st or 2nd in the group. Hopefully Scotland will get 3rd and also go through.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,950
    That match wasn’t very edifying.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,596

    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
    Absolutely agreed. Kane was rubbish again and deserved to be hooked. Problem was nobody else was much better. Scotland the better team, painting London blue tonight and thinking they can qualify. Not good.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Rising infection rate means Britons in their 30s are now more at risk from Covid than blood clots from AstraZeneca's jab, analysis shows amid fears Pfizer shortage could scupper Freedom Day plans

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9701335/Britons-30s-risk-Covid-clots-AstraZenecas-jab-analysis-shows.html

    But Britons in their 30s have been able to get Pfizer for a month now already.

    Even at today's elevated Covid rates Britons in their 20s are still at more risk from clots than from Covid - and Pfizer is already available for all of them anyway and anyone 18 or 19 too.

    Just go get Pfizer. And if 30+ should have got it weeks ago.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Only watched a small bit of the match so obviously can't give the holistic view but I thought Sterling terrorised the Scottish defence.

    Should have had a penalty and if he had got any support Scotland were in trouble.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    Chameleon said:

    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't believe we're settling for a draw against bloody Scotland at Wembley.
    Absolute Keir Starmer stuff.

    May be they want to be second in the group?
    Yes we don't want to win the group. We want 2nd. A draw vs CZ in the final group game is the next move.
    That's a good line.

    WE LET THEM DRAW !!!
    You can really tell that Kinabalu has plenty of experience spinning for lost causes.
    No way is this a lost cause. That wasn't a must win match, it was a mustn't lose. And we didn't. It's job done and we go on.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,745
    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,596
    Alistair said:

    Only watched a small bit of the match so obviously can't give the holistic view but I thought Sterling terrorised the Scottish defence.

    Should have had a penalty and if he had got any support Scotland were in trouble.

    Really? I’m not at all charitable to Scotland at football. But I would say you just about edged it. Why didn’t you watch it?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,614
    IanB2 said:

    That match wasn’t very edifying.

    The second round matches have, so far, not been as good as the first round of matches.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,614
    Alistair said:

    Only watched a small bit of the match so obviously can't give the holistic view but I thought Sterling terrorised the Scottish defence.

    Should have had a penalty and if he had got any support Scotland were in trouble.

    Sterling looked a lot better in the match against Croatia than tonight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271

    Alistair said:

    Only watched a small bit of the match so obviously can't give the holistic view but I thought Sterling terrorised the Scottish defence.

    Should have had a penalty and if he had got any support Scotland were in trouble.

    Sterling looked a lot better in the match against Croatia than tonight.
    He looked like in the sort of form that meant he was dropped from Man City team.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692
    Newsnight: Daisy Cooper defends the LDs being in favour of HS2 nationally and against it in Chesham & Amersham.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    geoffw said:

    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/

    Shhhh! Don’t tell Leon or his head will actually explode.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    “ Among all voters, Mr Johnson is seen as charismatic by 60 per cent, with Sir Keir only 23. Restricted to 2019 Labour voters, 51 per cent say Mr Johnson has charisma – but only 27 per cent attribute this quality to his rival.”

    Excellent repeated use of ‘Sir Keir’ 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    Andy_JS said:

    Newsnight: Daisy Cooper defends the LDs being in favour of HS2 nationally and against it in Chesham & Amersham.

    Politician tonight defends politicians for being hypocrites.

    And in tonight’s second news story, the Pope declares he is a Catholic.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,062
    Good result for the union tonight. And I’m with Kinabalu and Isam on this, there’s always at least one disappointing game in the group stages so it might as well be one where there’s some political benefit to be had.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
    Absolutely agreed. Kane was rubbish again and deserved to be hooked. Problem was nobody else was much better. Scotland the better team, painting London blue tonight and thinking they can qualify. Not good.
    Pickford was good.
    Which comment says it all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    isam said:

    “ Among all voters, Mr Johnson is seen as charismatic by 60 per cent, with Sir Keir only 23. Restricted to 2019 Labour voters, 51 per cent say Mr Johnson has charisma – but only 27 per cent attribute this quality to his rival.”

    Excellent repeated use of ‘Sir Keir’ 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
    Just wait until he does he reality show....that will boost his ratings.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021

    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
    Absolutely agreed. Kane was rubbish again and deserved to be hooked. Problem was nobody else was much better. Scotland the better team, painting London blue tonight and thinking they can qualify. Not good.
    When you need a goal, I don’t think you take off one of the best no9s of all time, however poorly he has been playing.

    Graham Taylor did it to Lineker in 92. Says it all
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,994
    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    That attitude almost deserves the freakish combination of results that puts England third in the group.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    Andy_JS said:

    Newsnight: Daisy Cooper defends the LDs being in favour of HS2 nationally and against it in Chesham & Amersham.

    Replacement bus from Milton Keynes?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,694
    edited June 2021
    Alistair said:

    Only watched a small bit of the match so obviously can't give the holistic view but I thought Sterling terrorised the Scottish defence.

    Should have had a penalty and if he had got any support Scotland were in trouble.

    Sterling ran around a lot but provided no end product. He should have been subbed instead of Foden.

    Still, England did pretty well considering they went for 75 minutes with only 10 fit players. Perhaps Kane really wants to stay at Spurs but it is his agent that wants a cut of a transfer fee?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    Aren’t England practically in the next round already anyway? Guaranteed third in the group and 4/6 3rds go through don’t they? Group A v unlikely to do it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,748
    geoffw said:

    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/

    Not only that, the rumours say he defected with significant evidence that the virus which ‘leaked’ from the lab was altered by gain-of-function research to be more virulent, as part of China’s bioweaponry research

    Hence the Biden admin’s sudden switch behind ‘lab leak’ a few weeks back
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,478
    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/

    Not only that, the rumours say he defected with significant evidence that the virus which ‘leaked’ from the lab was altered by gain-of-function research to be more virulent, as part of China’s bioweaponry research

    Hence the Biden admin’s sudden switch behind ‘lab leak’ a few weeks back
    I told you so :smile:

    Good night :sleepy:
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9702297/Sir-Keir-Starmer-faces-humiliation-calls-quit-poll-shows-Labour-crushed-election.html

    Sir Keir Starmer could soon face renewed calls to resign after a poll showed that he is heading for another humiliating defeat in Labour’s former northern stronghold.

    According to a survey for the Daily Mail, the Conservatives are six points ahead of Labour in Batley and Spen in Yorkshire, where a by-election takes place on July 1.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,885

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    TIMES: PM warned homes plan turning off Tory voters #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1406004802551795713


    Jenrick is history...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756
    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    I don't know but it's very disappointing.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    edited June 2021

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756
    isam said:

    Aren’t England practically in the next round already anyway? Guaranteed third in the group and 4/6 3rds go through don’t they? Group A v unlikely to do it

    England are virtually guaranteed 2nd at least. To drop to 3rd they would have to loose to the Czechs and see Scotland beat Coratia, and one of these results would have to be by 2 or more clear goals.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    Andy_JS said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    I don't know but it's very disappointing.
    Demand
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,957
    TimS said:

    Good result for the union tonight. And I’m with Kinabalu and Isam on this, there’s always at least one disappointing game in the group stages so it might as well be one where there’s some political benefit to be had.

    What union? England and Scotland play separately :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756
    edited June 2021
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    I don't know but it's very disappointing.
    Demand
    Evidence?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Floater said:
    Can someone explain something to me?

    Why would eg a trans girl [a biological born boy] want to be a girl, if there's no such thing as girls anymore and they can't be called a girl since you can't say girl for anyone? It doesn't make any sense.

    My wife put it well to me this week - we are both 100% in favour of gay rights, transgender rights etc - but the issue is that when gay marriage was debated the retort was "well just because gays can get married doesn't mean you have to marry someone of the same sex". It didn't affect straight people which made their objections petty and easy to dismiss. My wife and I got married about the same week that Parliament legalised gay marriage, and gays being able to have joy like us was a pure unmitigated good thing. But people saying that my wife isn't a woman, can't be called a woman, can't breastfeed etc, etc, etc that takes away from her and every other woman on the planet.

    Gay marriage didn't entail telling straight people they can't get married.
    Trans rights should not entail telling women they're not women.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,061

    isam said:

    Aren’t England practically in the next round already anyway? Guaranteed third in the group and 4/6 3rds go through don’t they? Group A v unlikely to do it

    England are virtually guaranteed 2nd at least. To drop to 3rd they would have to loose to the Czechs and see Scotland beat Coratia, and one of these results would have to be by 2 or more clear goals.
    That seems perfectly feasible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    The UK has finished its vaccine rollout, the EU hasn't.

    All over 18s are eligible to be vaccinated, so anyone who isn't vaccinated yet its because they didn't register immediately and we're trying to chase up stragglers. The EU is still expanding eligibility.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,363
    isam said:

    Aren’t England practically in the next round already anyway? Guaranteed third in the group and 4/6 3rds go through don’t they? Group A v unlikely to do it

    Yep. We're through. We are just 2 matches from a semi at Wembley and if we win that we're in the final, also at Wembley. And all those games are against just one opponent. They're 2 horse races. That's how close we are to glory. It seems a long way off but it really isn't. People are being far too negative imo.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,699
    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/

    Not only that, the rumours say he defected with significant evidence that the virus which ‘leaked’ from the lab was altered by gain-of-function research to be more virulent, as part of China’s bioweaponry research

    Hence the Biden admin’s sudden switch behind ‘lab leak’ a few weeks back
    Interesting to see how Biden plays China, armed with that intelligence.

    If China had a vaccine that wasn't shite, they could be held responsible for jabbing the planet against Covid at its sole cost, ad infinitum. But they'd use the shite one....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    I don't know but it's very disappointing.
    Demand
    Evidence?
    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756

    Floater said:
    Can someone explain something to me?

    Why would eg a trans girl [a biological born boy] want to be a girl, if there's no such thing as girls anymore and they can't be called a girl since you can't say girl for anyone? It doesn't make any sense.

    My wife put it well to me this week - we are both 100% in favour of gay rights, transgender rights etc - but the issue is that when gay marriage was debated the retort was "well just because gays can get married doesn't mean you have to marry someone of the same sex". It didn't affect straight people which made their objections petty and easy to dismiss. My wife and I got married about the same week that Parliament legalised gay marriage, and gays being able to have joy like us was a pure unmitigated good thing. But people saying that my wife isn't a woman, can't be called a woman, can't breastfeed etc, etc, etc that takes away from her and every other woman on the planet.

    Gay marriage didn't entail telling straight people they can't get married.
    Trans rights should not entail telling women they're not women.
    I can't read the Telegraph article (£££) but the snippet I can see seems to be suggesting Stonewall want to teachers to use gender neutral terms such as learners rather than girls or boys. In the context of education where historic biases exist (e.g boys directed to science; girls to arts) I can seen some sense in that.

    Some of the more extreme pronouncements from progressive groups are, shall we say, a bit outside the Overton window and designed to shock and/or play to the true believers. Best to ignore those - everyone else will.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,614
    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    This is the same attitude that will condemn Labour to repeated election defeats. England have no store of extravagant performances that they can deploy at will, as you might pull out your credit card. Good performances are crafted through hard work and practice. There's no sense in saying that by playing average tonight we saved up a better performance for later - we simply don't look as good a team as we did against Croatia. That makes a good performance later less likely, not more.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756

    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    This is the same attitude that will condemn Labour to repeated election defeats. England have no store of extravagant performances that they can deploy at will, as you might pull out your credit card. Good performances are crafted through hard work and practice. There's no sense in saying that by playing average tonight we saved up a better performance for later - we simply don't look as good a team as we did against Croatia. That makes a good performance later less likely, not more.
    Nah, every team puts in the occasional average/poor performance. Look at Euro 96 for example, or 1966 for that matter.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    Is 47-41 worse than expected for Labour in Batley & Spen? Given the betting odds I don’t think it’s that bad, but I could be completely wrong on that
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    Evening all :)

    A very busy day topped off by a reasonable evening with friends in London. However, the chanting of English and Scottish fans was a discordant theme.

    Perhaps most amusing were the four Scottish football fans who started trampling a St George flag at London Bridge station - doing so in front of half a dozen Police smacked of audacity if not suicidal insanity and needless to say said Police officers soon called time on this curious vignette of street theatre.

    I've long suspected with football fans the camaraderie and community were far more important than the sport - was it a vintage goalless draw or 90 minutes of life no one will be getting back?

    Perhaps it goes much deeper - after all, how much different a Scottish fan coming south to London than a Lib Dem activist heading to Amersham?

    "To dream the impossible dream" as the song has it - well, chasing the dream perhaps and while the Scots may feel they have half a dream, the Lib Dems have the whole dream after last night's resounding triumph in C&A.

    An excellent local campaign aided by the rejuvenated by-election "machine" did the job in style - a style worthy of its place in the annals of great LD triumphs.

    Does it "change" politics? It's almost exactly two years since the ComRes poll paved the way for Boris Johnson to win the Conservative Party leadership battle, become Prime Minister and unite the pro-Brexit forces against a divided and both strategically and tactically inept opposition. In that period, it's been almost unremittingly good news for the Conservatives - they took a commanding lead in the polls, won a huge victory at a GE and have maintained a substantial advantage over their main opponents.

    Perhaps, to quote WSC, it's not the beginning of the end but it is perhaps the end of the beginning.

    One thing it does is revive LD spirits, Sir Ed Davey has his "trophy" and the mood in the Party will be buoyant but let's not kid ourselves - at best the Party has ever been competitive in 120 seats at most. C&A isn't any more a breakthrough then Christchurch or Romsey but it shows the Party can achieve successful transient ambushes and the aim for the next election will be to build on seats and vote shares and get back to that 15-20% and 25-50 seats band which ensures some relevance and perhaps more in a close-fought contest.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,614

    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    This is the same attitude that will condemn Labour to repeated election defeats. England have no store of extravagant performances that they can deploy at will, as you might pull out your credit card. Good performances are crafted through hard work and practice. There's no sense in saying that by playing average tonight we saved up a better performance for later - we simply don't look as good a team as we did against Croatia. That makes a good performance later less likely, not more.
    Nah, every team puts in the occasional average/poor performance. Look at Euro 96 for example, or 1966 for that matter.
    I reckon that the team that wins the thing will have put in fewer average performances than most of the others.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756
    edited June 2021

    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Rumours swirl that China’s top spycatcher has defected to the US
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/rumours-swirl-chinas-top-spycatcher-has-defected-us/

    Not only that, the rumours say he defected with significant evidence that the virus which ‘leaked’ from the lab was altered by gain-of-function research to be more virulent, as part of China’s bioweaponry research

    Hence the Biden admin’s sudden switch behind ‘lab leak’ a few weeks back
    Interesting to see how Biden plays China, armed with that intelligence.

    If China had a vaccine that wasn't shite, they could be held responsible for jabbing the planet against Covid at its sole cost, ad infinitum. But they'd use the shite one....
    Let's be honest 'Made in China' is a synonym for 'shite'.

    I've lost track fo the number of times I've 'found a bargain' on eBay or Amazon only to find out I've purchased a heap of badly designed, shoddily made, worthless junk. I must wean myself off the 'bargain' addiction.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    isam said:

    Is 47-41 worse than expected for Labour in Batley & Spen? Given the betting odds I don’t think it’s that bad, but I could be completely wrong on that

    Must say that was what I thought. 47-41 with Galloway on 6 means it is far from over.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756

    kinabalu said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Happy with that. Scotland was a possible banana skin, with the unique emotion of the game, and we haven't slipped up. The draw is fine. Clean sheet a bonus. Bound to progress to the knockout now and plenty still in the tank. It's looking on.

    Pull the other one.

    It was a terrible performance.
    But fine in the context of the tournament. You don't want extravagant performances in the group games. Only one thing matters - getting through. We've done that and are looking at a very winnable last 16 match so long as we avoid beating the Czechs. Then it's quarter final and that's lift off. That is when it gets real and it's either coming home or it isn't. I'm feeling positive. More so than if we'd done something flashy tonight.
    This is the same attitude that will condemn Labour to repeated election defeats. England have no store of extravagant performances that they can deploy at will, as you might pull out your credit card. Good performances are crafted through hard work and practice. There's no sense in saying that by playing average tonight we saved up a better performance for later - we simply don't look as good a team as we did against Croatia. That makes a good performance later less likely, not more.
    Nah, every team puts in the occasional average/poor performance. Look at Euro 96 for example, or 1966 for that matter.
    I reckon that the team that wins the thing will have put in fewer average performances than most of the others.
    Portugal drew all three of their group games in Euro 2016. Remind me how that turned out?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    Is 47-41 worse than expected for Labour in Batley & Spen? Given the betting odds I don’t think it’s that bad, but I could be completely wrong on that

    Must say that was what I thought. 47-41 with Galloway on 6 means it is far from over.
    Had £50 at 3/1 on the back of it
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    This “legal right to work from home” stuff is getting bonkers. Yes no doubt some people prefer to work from home. Some people prefer to work in the office. Or a mixture. But the idea that this is something that should be legislated for is absurd. How on earth are courts supposed to decide whether a business/organisation is more or less effective depending on where workers spend most of their wirking hours?

    Unltimately this is not a health and safety or other “exploitative employers” issue.

    It is one that is best determined locally, as part of employment contracts on a case by case basis, and not one should require any state mandated involvement.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    This whole Chinese defection story seems to be sourced to Red State, are there any proper sources out there suggesting it's actually true?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    No problem with the first of these. But my anecdotal experience of this (in a public sector organisation!) is that people working unusual hours and responding to emails at any and all times has been happening as a result of no pressure from senior management at all. It is simply because people have nothing else to do when they wake up in the middle of the night, and choose to do a bit of work to ease their burden.

    As I said above, the latter is just bonkers!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    alex_ said:

    This “legal right to work from home” stuff is getting bonkers. Yes no doubt some people prefer to work from home. Some people prefer to work in the office. Or a mixture. But the idea that this is something that should be legislated for is absurd. How on earth are courts supposed to decide whether a business/organisation is more or less effective depending on where workers spend most of their wirking hours?

    Unltimately this is not a health and safety or other “exploitative employers” issue.

    It is one that is best determined locally, as part of employment contracts on a case by case basis, and not one should require any state mandated involvement.

    However. It was an almost unnoticed at the time part of the Conservative 2019 manifesto.
    And disabled groups have long pushed for it as an accessibility issue.
    So it is here like it or not.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021
    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    alex_ said:

    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    No problem with the first of these. But my anecdotal experience of this (in a public sector organisation!) is that people working unusual hours and responding to emails at any and all times has been happening as a result of no pressure from senior management at all. It is simply because people have nothing else to do when they wake up in the middle of the night, and choose to do a bit of work to ease their burden.

    As I said above, the latter is just bonkers!
    Oi....I'm working right now....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    Starmer lost his director of comms and deputy director of comms today.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    dixiedean said:

    alex_ said:

    This “legal right to work from home” stuff is getting bonkers. Yes no doubt some people prefer to work from home. Some people prefer to work in the office. Or a mixture. But the idea that this is something that should be legislated for is absurd. How on earth are courts supposed to decide whether a business/organisation is more or less effective depending on where workers spend most of their wirking hours?

    Unltimately this is not a health and safety or other “exploitative employers” issue.

    It is one that is best determined locally, as part of employment contracts on a case by case basis, and not one should require any state mandated involvement.

    However. It was an almost unnoticed at the time part of the Conservative 2019 manifesto.
    And disabled groups have long pushed for it as an accessibility issue.
    So it is here like it or not.
    That it was part of the Conservative manifesto hardly is a point in its favour. And - i accept fully - that in the case of improving access for disabled people etc to enter the workforce it is well something that may be worth exploring. But, generally, accommodating disabled individuals is a potential "burden" (not intended perjoritavely) for any organisation. But it does not follow that rights extended to improve the rights of the clearly disadvantaged should apply to all if it potentially reduces the overall effectiveness of an organisation on a material level.

    (and which is also why, ultimately justifiably, small organisations often have exemptions from some "equal opportunity/treatment" rules - because it is reasonable to accept that the moral and ethical ideals can not be enforced in circumstances where doing so will make a business/organisation fundamentally financially unviable)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    Starmer lost his director of comms and deputy director of comms today.

    You mean he had them?
    Losing them cannot be other than a positive for all the effect they've had.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,614

    alex_ said:

    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    No problem with the first of these. But my anecdotal experience of this (in a public sector organisation!) is that people working unusual hours and responding to emails at any and all times has been happening as a result of no pressure from senior management at all. It is simply because people have nothing else to do when they wake up in the middle of the night, and choose to do a bit of work to ease their burden.

    As I said above, the latter is just bonkers!
    Oi....I'm working right now....
    I am also working right now. I am directing drilling operations on a southern North Sea gas field. All from my study in rural Lincolnshire. It is a 24/7 operation.

    But I also often work late at night because I prefer it. I haven't slept more than about 4 or 5 hours a night in 30 years so I find that I can work at night when the family is in bed and it gives me more time for doing stuff with them during the day. Pretty much ideal for me.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    isam said:

    Standard Southgate England...

    I am surprised people think we normally play good football under him - the World Cup was just as turgid - Scraped past Tunisia, thrashed Paraguay, reserves lost to Belgium's reserves; Crap vs Colombia, efficient but boring vs Sweden, knocked out by Croatia, crap against Belgium
    The thing is the coach, Steve Holland....he is the famed Crewe youth coach who brought through all the anazing attacking talent from there and Crewe famed at the time for playing fantastic creative exciting football.

    But old waistcoat inner defender...no no never give that ball away, what we want to do is pass it around at walking pace for 75 mins.
    I think the idea is that the players on the other team actually fall asleep, and you can sneak one in at the death.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271

    alex_ said:

    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    No problem with the first of these. But my anecdotal experience of this (in a public sector organisation!) is that people working unusual hours and responding to emails at any and all times has been happening as a result of no pressure from senior management at all. It is simply because people have nothing else to do when they wake up in the middle of the night, and choose to do a bit of work to ease their burden.

    As I said above, the latter is just bonkers!
    Oi....I'm working right now....
    I am also working right now. I am directing drilling operations on a southern North Sea gas field. All from my study in rural Lincolnshire. It is a 24/7 operation.

    But I also often work late at night because I prefer it. I haven't slept more than about 4 or 5 hours a night in 30 years so I find that I can work at night when the family is in bed and it gives me more time for doing stuff with them during the day. Pretty much ideal for me.
    Ditto...other than directing drilling....i usually don't go to bed until about 4am and up before 9am. Now is perfect to get things done.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
    When same or next day appointments are available, absolutely.

    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . . 🤷‍♂️

    You're tilting at windmills. If 46,000 over 30s in Bromley or 111,000 in Newham haven't been vaccinated its by choice not supply of doses.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    Is 47-41 worse than expected for Labour in Batley & Spen? Given the betting odds I don’t think it’s that bad, but I could be completely wrong on that

    Must say that was what I thought. 47-41 with Galloway on 6 means it is far from over.
    Had £50 at 3/1 on the back of it
    That seems around value to me. C+A, whilst fully accepting is an utterly different seat, showed that the Tory vote can be very soft. GOTV will be vital, and they didn't have it on Thursday.
    Maybe B+S is better. And maybe Labour don't have it either. But that Galloway vote is definitely squeezable. Knowledge of a poll can and does change voting intentions.
    As does the C+A result. In that the PM no longer appears a nailed on winner.
    I reckon it will be close. Tory win for my life. But I'd be damn sure I'd written my will.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
    When same or next day appointments are available, absolutely.

    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . . 🤷‍♂️

    You're tilting at windmills. If 46,000 over 30s in Bromley or 111,000 in Newham haven't been vaccinated its by choice not supply of doses.
    "Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . ."

    Except its not, we can't do more than new 200k doses a day, due to supply constraints.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    The UK has finished its vaccine rollout, the EU hasn't.

    All over 18s are eligible to be vaccinated, so anyone who isn't vaccinated yet its because they didn't register immediately and we're trying to chase up stragglers. The EU is still expanding eligibility.
    There are also big differences between EU countries. Some have gone with "zero inventory, first jab priority" strategies, while others have chosen to keep second dose inventory and to follow manufacturer guidelines.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692
    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    Yeah I've been saying this for ages. I think they've already brought it in in Germany.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
    When same or next day appointments are available, absolutely.

    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . . 🤷‍♂️

    You're tilting at windmills. If 46,000 over 30s in Bromley or 111,000 in Newham haven't been vaccinated its by choice not supply of doses.
    "Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . ."

    Except its not, we can't do more than new 200k doses a day, due to supply constraints.
    Are we getting more than 200k applicants per day? It was newsworthy the other day when there were a million applicants in a day for the first time since rollout began and that was when five years were unlocked at once for the final time. Since then, and before then for a while, its been a couple of years of eligibility at a time.

    Everyone who has tried booking an appointment or checking availability on the website here, from across the country, has found ample availability. There seems to be no evidence at all of unmet demand or long waiting lists.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alex_ said:

    stodge said:

    This looks like one of the key policy areas for the middle period of this Parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57529702

    No problem with the first of these. But my anecdotal experience of this (in a public sector organisation!) is that people working unusual hours and responding to emails at any and all times has been happening as a result of no pressure from senior management at all. It is simply because people have nothing else to do when they wake up in the middle of the night, and choose to do a bit of work to ease their burden.

    As I said above, the latter is just bonkers!
    Agreed.

    I find myself most productive in the evening, once the kids go to bed I can sit down without any distractions and in a couple of hours smash out a lot of work. In the day time I end up often here getting into conversations, or other distractions, while in the evening I can just work unencumbered.

    Some people assume 9-5 is normal but I've almost always worked evenings since I was 17. At first temp jobs, at school and university, then my career required shift work - and now I'm just used to it. I'm a night owl, so its what I prefer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
    When same or next day appointments are available, absolutely.

    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . . 🤷‍♂️

    You're tilting at windmills. If 46,000 over 30s in Bromley or 111,000 in Newham haven't been vaccinated its by choice not supply of doses.
    "Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . ."

    Except its not, we can't do more than new 200k doses a day, due to supply constraints.
    Are we getting more than 200k applicants per day? It was newsworthy the other day when there were a million applicants in a day for the first time since rollout began and that was when five years were unlocked at once for the final time. Since then, and before then for a while, its been a couple of years of eligibility at a time.

    Everyone who has tried booking an appointment or checking availability on the website here, from across the country, has found ample availability. There seems to be no evidence at all of unmet demand or long waiting lists.
    There has been plenty of stories of drop in clinic running out of doses. Last Sat, one in Sheffield had to start turning people away mid morning, because all 700 doses they had for the day were gone, with a big queue still outside.

    We had similar stories at places like Twickers 2 weeks before. Long queues, unable to jab everybody, out of supply.

    And as I keep saying, we have waited a month too long. We could have been doing 18 year olds a month ago if we had started to use AZN again. But we couldn't, we couldn't even do more than 100k-150k first doses a day.

    Its all a bit of a mute point now, because we have missed the windows. We could have been doing 100ks of extra jabs. Even 150k extra a day for a week, a month ago, thats an extra million people. That million that signed up in a day, we could have done weeks before.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,596
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
    Absolutely agreed. Kane was rubbish again and deserved to be hooked. Problem was nobody else was much better. Scotland the better team, painting London blue tonight and thinking they can qualify. Not good.
    When you need a goal, I don’t think you take off one of the best no9s of all time, however poorly he has been playing.

    Graham Taylor did it to Lineker in 92. Says it all
    I do see what you are saying but Kane had been a complete bystander for 160 minutes by that stage. I think it was a fair hook. But I’d still start him vs Czechia.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    Not to mention Canada. We look like the 1500m runner who went too early. The finish line ain't coming to us quickly.
    We've gone through the finish line already. Every single adult in the country is eligible for the vaccine.

    Canada have done a fraction of the doses we have per capita. They've done more first doses as they're doing children and we're not, but they've not done the seconds yet.
    So being eligible now equals being vaccinated?
    When same or next day appointments are available, absolutely.

    stodge said:


    Absolutely every single adult in the country is eligible.

    Yet for a myriad of reasons, 111,000 adults over the age of 30 have yet to be vaccinated at all in Newham - compared with 46,000 in the same age range in Bromley.

    We are seeing a concerted attempt to provide mass vaccinations for Londoners this weekend at various football stadiums:

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/18/all-the-the-covid-vaccination-events-at-football-stadiums-this-weekend-14793429/

    My thought is why wasn't this being done a month ago? Complacency seems to have given way, after panic, to a logistical effort to get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible.
    Its classic PHE...the government set a target, they are meeting it, job done in their mind. We saw the same with testing.

    However a) with vaccinations you get never do enough / fast enough, b) the situation the original plan was based on low case numbers, Kent variant....so one dose of most people was basically herd immunity.

    We have seen this throughout the vaccination roll out, they got to 500k a day and then the pace slackened off, they closed centres at weekends etc. Yes some of it was supply, but it has all drifted. A sense of we are meeting the timetable so thats ok.

    If i was the government, over a month ago I would have asked JCVI for new model on if AZN was good idea and if so, just blitzed it. Anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . . 🤷‍♂️

    You're tilting at windmills. If 46,000 over 30s in Bromley or 111,000 in Newham haven't been vaccinated its by choice not supply of doses.
    "Except anybody, anywhere, anytime is available with Pfizer so . . ."

    Except its not, we can't do more than new 200k doses a day, due to supply constraints.
    Are we getting more than 200k applicants per day? It was newsworthy the other day when there were a million applicants in a day for the first time since rollout began and that was when five years were unlocked at once for the final time. Since then, and before then for a while, its been a couple of years of eligibility at a time.

    Everyone who has tried booking an appointment or checking availability on the website here, from across the country, has found ample availability. There seems to be no evidence at all of unmet demand or long waiting lists.
    There has been plenty of stories of drop in clinic running out of doses. Last Sat, one in Sheffield had to start turning people away mid morning, because all 700 doses they had for the day were gone, with a big queue still outside.

    We had similar stories at places like Twickers 2 weeks before. Long queues, unable to jab everybody.
    Minor anecdotes weeks apart and that's for people who didn't have appointments, presumably prior to appointments being officially available so first-come, first-served beat the unlocking of appointments which has now occurred.

    The general picture nationwide is that of available doses and increasingly begging people to come in to get their jabs. Absolutely everyone is eligible and I've not recently seen a single person say they've tried to book their jab but there's no appointments available for them - have you?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A very busy day topped off by a reasonable evening with friends in London. However, the chanting of English and Scottish fans was a discordant theme.

    Perhaps most amusing were the four Scottish football fans who started trampling a St George flag at London Bridge station - doing so in front of half a dozen Police smacked of audacity if not suicidal insanity and needless to say said Police officers soon called time on this curious vignette of street theatre.

    I've long suspected with football fans the camaraderie and community were far more important than the sport - was it a vintage goalless draw or 90 minutes of life no one will be getting back?

    Perhaps it goes much deeper - after all, how much different a Scottish fan coming south to London than a Lib Dem activist heading to Amersham?

    "To dream the impossible dream" as the song has it - well, chasing the dream perhaps and while the Scots may feel they have half a dream, the Lib Dems have the whole dream after last night's resounding triumph in C&A.

    An excellent local campaign aided by the rejuvenated by-election "machine" did the job in style - a style worthy of its place in the annals of great LD triumphs.

    Does it "change" politics? It's almost exactly two years since the ComRes poll paved the way for Boris Johnson to win the Conservative Party leadership battle, become Prime Minister and unite the pro-Brexit forces against a divided and both strategically and tactically inept opposition. In that period, it's been almost unremittingly good news for the Conservatives - they took a commanding lead in the polls, won a huge victory at a GE and have maintained a substantial advantage over their main opponents.

    Perhaps, to quote WSC, it's not the beginning of the end but it is perhaps the end of the beginning.

    One thing it does is revive LD spirits, Sir Ed Davey has his "trophy" and the mood in the Party will be buoyant but let's not kid ourselves - at best the Party has ever been competitive in 120 seats at most. C&A isn't any more a breakthrough then Christchurch or Romsey but it shows the Party can achieve successful transient ambushes and the aim for the next election will be to build on seats and vote shares and get back to that 15-20% and 25-50 seats band which ensures some relevance and perhaps more in a close-fought contest.

    I think the LDs will struggle to get to the 25-50 seat band, but 18-22 looks achievable.

    Now 2024 is going to be a slightly odd year because of the boundary changes, but it's not unreasonable for the LDs to expect one gain in Scotland, a couple in London, and a perhaps three or four market towns in the South East. Against that, they'll probably lose C&A, and Westmoreland looks difficult on the boundary changes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Harry Kane playing himself into being a one club man, but I can’t believe Southgate subbed him. That was a bad, bad move. Overthinking

    He was awful, didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. If subbing him serves as a kick up the arse for the next match that he needs to put the effort in then even better.
    Absolutely agreed. Kane was rubbish again and deserved to be hooked. Problem was nobody else was much better. Scotland the better team, painting London blue tonight and thinking they can qualify. Not good.
    When you need a goal, I don’t think you take off one of the best no9s of all time, however poorly he has been playing.

    Graham Taylor did it to Lineker in 92. Says it all
    I do see what you are saying but Kane had been a complete bystander for 160 minutes by that stage. I think it was a fair hook. But I’d still start him vs Czechia.
    I wouldn't. He might score the winner and we'd get an ignominious last 16 exit v Germany!
    Besides which. He clearly isn't 100%. And we are through. Time for DCL.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    TIMES: PM warned homes plan turning off Tory voters #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1406004802551795713


    Jenrick is history...

    They already knew changing planning rules in the way they were thinking would be unpopular. Frankly I'm surprised it's gotten this far, though with a big majority its the kind of thing they should be able to have the stones to do.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    And as I keep saying, we have waited a month too long. We could have been doing 18 year olds a month ago if we had started to use AZN again. But we couldn't, we couldn't even do more than 100k-150k first doses a day.

    Its all a bit of a mute point now, because we have missed the windows. We could have been doing 100ks of extra jabs. Even 150k extra a day for a week, a month ago, thats an extra million people. That million that signed up in a day, we could have done weeks before.

    And as I've been saying the JCVI have said that million were at more risk from the clots than they were from Covid. Even from that link you gave earlier, that cohort is still at more risk from clots than from Covid. This is your own link that you shared, not a paper I'd read, but I assume you trust it - look at the 20-29 image.

    image

    Our vaccine rollout has public trust because of the independence, trustworthiness and integrity of the JCVI - and you wish to throw that away by over-ruling them for what purpose exactly? 18+ are currently able to get Pfizer, which is safer for them, quicker acting and will allow a 3-4 week gap for second dose rather than needing a longer gap for the second dose too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    They have more people to jab.

    I don't think anyone ever doubted the EU nations could jab at high rates, it was the slow start that was the issue for them, not that they could not go fast eventually.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    algarkirk said:

    There are two decent reasons for thinking that overall as of today LDs have more in common with Labour than the Tories.

    One is the coalition experience which tested the theory that LDs are just moderate Tories to destruction. They got demolished for going in with them instead.

    Secondly there are very few constituencies where LD and Labour fight it out for first place. In almost every case it is either Labour or LD up against a Tory. If they were genuine adversaries there would be lots of seats where Lab and LD would be fighting it out for first place, especially in those places where Tories are naturally weak. Just as there are lots of seats where Con and Lab do so, and Con and LD do so.

    "Secondly there are very few constituencies where LD and Labour fight it out for first place"

    Not a great LD selling point. Interesting though.

    The LDs really should have great unassailable heartlands in the midlands etc. They just have outliers and leafy deodorists.
    The LDs used to have four stronghold areas:

    1. The Celtic fringe - Orkney & Shetland, Cornwall, etc
    2. South West London
    3. The market towns of South East England
    4. Scottish seats where they were the perceived challengers to the Conservatives

    Re 1, while Orkney & Shetland remains, the LDs have been hammered in the Southwest - probably at least partly due to their Europhilia. I don't see a quick way back for them there.

    2. South West London remains a strong area, and one where they have the opportunity to make further gains in the future. It wouldn't be a surprise if they won both Carshalton and Wimbledon in 2024.

    3. The LibDems used to have a swathe of seats - Lewes, Eastleigh, Eastbourne, Winchester, etc. They have been almost eliminated. But C&A, plus successes in the locals should give them optimism here.

    4. Well, it's not anti-Tory tactical voting any more, it's anti-SNP. The LDs could gain - at most - two more seats in Scotland. And realistically, one is more likely.

    Put those together, and you can see... ohh... the opportunity for the LDs to get back to about 20 seats. But getting much beyond there requires them to start nationally polling a lot higher than current levels.
    Wimbledon was actually Labour-held 1997 - 2005 , so no reason for the party to soft peddle there particularly as a strong performance in 2017 does suggest the seat is winnable for the party under the right circumstances. Even Sutton Carshalton was viewed as a Tory- Labour marginal until the 1980s - and now that the LDs have lost the seat much of the tactical Labour vote could revert to Labour.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    TIMES: PM warned homes plan turning off Tory voters #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1406004802551795713


    Jenrick is history...

    They already knew changing planning rules in the way they were thinking would be unpopular. Frankly I'm surprised it's gotten this far, though with a big majority its the kind of thing they should be able to have the stones to do.
    Its the kind of thing that is the difference between a good PM and a great one. Having the cojones to enact reforms you know are the right thing to do, even if they're unpopular, because they'll work long term.

    Thatcher had her Willie, does Boris have his?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,271
    edited June 2021

    And as I keep saying, we have waited a month too long. We could have been doing 18 year olds a month ago if we had started to use AZN again. But we couldn't, we couldn't even do more than 100k-150k first doses a day.

    Its all a bit of a mute point now, because we have missed the windows. We could have been doing 100ks of extra jabs. Even 150k extra a day for a week, a month ago, thats an extra million people. That million that signed up in a day, we could have done weeks before.

    And as I've been saying the JCVI have said that million were at more risk from the clots than they were from Covid. Even from that link you gave earlier, that cohort is still at more risk from clots than from Covid. This is your own link that you shared, not a paper I'd read, but I assume you trust it - look at the 20-29 image.

    image

    Our vaccine rollout has public trust because of the independence, trustworthiness and integrity of the JCVI - and you wish to throw that away by over-ruling them for what purpose exactly? 18+ are currently able to get Pfizer, which is safer for them, quicker acting and will allow a 3-4 week gap for second dose rather than needing a longer gap for the second dose too.
    Risk of ICU for COVID != stopping the spread.....vaccinations aren't really about the individual (outside of obviously the oldies). For everybody else it is really about the community and stopping spread. Hence why those that say well I'm not at risk, so I don't need to get jabbed are idiots.

    That is what happened in Bolton, they got in there and jabbed a load of people and it looks like it locally had an impact.

    And I never said overrule the JCVI, have they remodelled their risk assessment since the Indian variant? I haven't heard that they have. Their previous risk assessment was based upon low case numbers of a less troublesome variant. We knew a month ago that the Indian variant was far worse than the Kent variant.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    France, Germany, Italy all continuing to vaccinate at higher rates than the UK in recent weeks.

    When I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago I was told it was all down to the Bank Holiday effect.

    What's the reason now?

    They have more people to jab.

    I don't think anyone ever doubted the EU nations could jab at high rates, it was the slow start that was the issue for them, not that they could not go fast eventually.
    Its worth noting that Canada and the EU are gaining from the fact that their neighbours, the USA and UK are slowing down.

    The USA running out of demand and slowing down has almost exactly mirrored Canada's increase in doses in recent weeks. Now that the Americans aren't using the doses, the Canadians can. Same here. The AZN manufactory isn't needing to send its doses to the UK as we've finished with it, so they can go to Europe now.

    That's a good thing, and needs to be replicated worldwide. In a few months time Canada and Europe will catch up with the USA and UK, the doses need to go to third world or other countries then.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    It's one o'clock in the morning.....

    Officers in Leicester Sq are engaging with the crowd and actively encouraging them to disperse.

    https://twitter.com/MetPoliceEvents/status/1406035225021497346?s=20
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    And as I keep saying, we have waited a month too long. We could have been doing 18 year olds a month ago if we had started to use AZN again. But we couldn't, we couldn't even do more than 100k-150k first doses a day.

    Its all a bit of a mute point now, because we have missed the windows. We could have been doing 100ks of extra jabs. Even 150k extra a day for a week, a month ago, thats an extra million people. That million that signed up in a day, we could have done weeks before.

    And as I've been saying the JCVI have said that million were at more risk from the clots than they were from Covid. Even from that link you gave earlier, that cohort is still at more risk from clots than from Covid. This is your own link that you shared, not a paper I'd read, but I assume you trust it - look at the 20-29 image.

    image

    Our vaccine rollout has public trust because of the independence, trustworthiness and integrity of the JCVI - and you wish to throw that away by over-ruling them for what purpose exactly? 18+ are currently able to get Pfizer, which is safer for them, quicker acting and will allow a 3-4 week gap for second dose rather than needing a longer gap for the second dose too.
    Risk of ICU for COVID != stopping the spread.....vaccinations aren't really about the individual (outside of obviously the oldies). For everybody else it is really about the community and stopping spread. Hence why those that say well I'm not at risk, so I don't need to get jabbed are idiots.

    That is what happened in Bolton, they got in there and jabbed a load of people and it looks like it locally had an impact.

    And I never said overrule the JCVI, have they remodelled their risk assessment since the Indian variant? I haven't heard that they have. Their previous risk assessment was based upon low case numbers of a less troublesome variant.
    Sorry but you're wrong there, the JCVI have always modelled this based upon the individual and not simply spread and quite rightly too: injecting healthy people with a potentially harmful substance, where the risks outweigh the rewards, is an ethical conundrum that has not been tackled. Nor has it needed to be tackled since Pfizer and Moderna exist.

    You're acting like a Zero Covid extremist concentrating on one issue and one issue alone.

    Under 30s getting jabbed now with Pfizer reduces community spread, but also its more beneficial to the recipient than not getting jabbed. Regrettably the same can not be said according to the JCVI about AstraZeneca, hence why its use is discontinued.

    PS That chart you shared is based upon prevalence and spread of cases today, not prevalence and spread months ago, hence why the over 30 risk ratio has changed based upon today's data, but the under thirties is still clear because even with our rising rates they're still pretty low.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,058
    Is it only the Guardian that calls it the Oxford vaccine rather than the AstraZeneca one?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    justin124 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    algarkirk said:

    There are two decent reasons for thinking that overall as of today LDs have more in common with Labour than the Tories.

    One is the coalition experience which tested the theory that LDs are just moderate Tories to destruction. They got demolished for going in with them instead.

    Secondly there are very few constituencies where LD and Labour fight it out for first place. In almost every case it is either Labour or LD up against a Tory. If they were genuine adversaries there would be lots of seats where Lab and LD would be fighting it out for first place, especially in those places where Tories are naturally weak. Just as there are lots of seats where Con and Lab do so, and Con and LD do so.

    "Secondly there are very few constituencies where LD and Labour fight it out for first place"

    Not a great LD selling point. Interesting though.

    The LDs really should have great unassailable heartlands in the midlands etc. They just have outliers and leafy deodorists.
    The LDs used to have four stronghold areas:

    1. The Celtic fringe - Orkney & Shetland, Cornwall, etc
    2. South West London
    3. The market towns of South East England
    4. Scottish seats where they were the perceived challengers to the Conservatives

    Re 1, while Orkney & Shetland remains, the LDs have been hammered in the Southwest - probably at least partly due to their Europhilia. I don't see a quick way back for them there.

    2. South West London remains a strong area, and one where they have the opportunity to make further gains in the future. It wouldn't be a surprise if they won both Carshalton and Wimbledon in 2024.

    3. The LibDems used to have a swathe of seats - Lewes, Eastleigh, Eastbourne, Winchester, etc. They have been almost eliminated. But C&A, plus successes in the locals should give them optimism here.

    4. Well, it's not anti-Tory tactical voting any more, it's anti-SNP. The LDs could gain - at most - two more seats in Scotland. And realistically, one is more likely.

    Put those together, and you can see... ohh... the opportunity for the LDs to get back to about 20 seats. But getting much beyond there requires them to start nationally polling a lot higher than current levels.
    Wimbledon was actually Labour-held 1997 - 2005 , so no reason for the party to soft peddle there particularly as a strong performance in 2017 does suggest the seat is winnable for the party under the right circumstances. Even Sutton Carshalton was viewed as a Tory- Labour marginal until the 1980s - and now that the LDs have lost the seat much of the tactical Labour vote could revert to Labour.
    Quite possible.

    *But*, I would point out that none of Sutton, Kingston or Richmond councils contain a single Labour member. Now Merton (containing Wimbledon) is much better, but let's see how next years locals play out, shall we?
This discussion has been closed.