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Could Johnson be tempted to go for an early election – just after the new boundaries come into effec

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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Assuming Charles' comment below was a reply to me, this is not simply about a problem with Novavax. There are a number of other vaccines suppliers including J&J and Moderna to go on top of our excellent AZN and Pfizer approved drugs.

    But if Germany can jab 1 million a day so can we. Period. We took our eye off the ball because we assumed that by 1st jabbing the over 50's & vulnerable we were safe, and so it looked until a) new variants esp the Indian one were more adept at body-swerving the vaccines and b) the interval rate between 1st and 2nd jabs, far from being a success story, now looks like a cock-up.

    We got complacent. Classic Boris. Absolutely classic.

    We should have gone full pelt on vaccination and ramped it up, piling in everything in our powers to jab, jab and jab.

    This is not just about factory supplies. We have large stockpiles of vaccines. It's about a failure to see through what we began on a sufficiently epic scale. We could and should be offering 24/7 vaccinations at every university town. Why? Because every Uni student I know would be perfectly happy to roll up their sleeve at 2 am for a jab. But we didn't do this because we didn't think it was necessary.

    Boris has been caught with his pants down. Yet again.

    We are more reliant on AZ vaccines in our mix than others.
    Also, there are large stockpiles of vaccines that aren't being used? Is there a link to a report on that?
    From figures posted earlier, Scotland has had about 625k allocated. They are 7.9% of the population. Assuming allocation is proportionate, that implies the UK has received around 75-80m in total.

    About 67.3m have been been injected suggesting they have around 15-20% in the supply chain*. Possibly a little higher than you might like, but not unexpected given fact that AZ usage is slowing down.

    But these are back of

    * fwiw inventories in the industry usually run at about 6-8 weeks, so 12-15%, but you would have more as a buffer stock where you need a cold chain as with pfe
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    It was their decision to abandon being working royals to live a life of luxury in California, not the royal families.

    They are below the Queen, Charles and Camilla and the Cambridges, Princess Anne and the Wessexes as should now be the case as they all still do royal duties.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9655131/Meghan-Markle-Prince-Harry-DEMOTED-Royal-Family-website.html
    But the Duke of York does no royal duties either so why his Prince Harry ranked lower than him, both fought in wars, so it can't be a military thing.
    Both are below the Cornwalls, the Cambridges and Princess Anne and Harry has a bigger picture than Andrew does too.

    The bigger story is that the Queen is missing. What's she gone and done to deserve that?
    She's taking time out to train for this year's Ironman World Championship. It's quite the inspirational story.
    She is training on a secret racetrack with Philips old white Fiat Uno. Something about re-sizing the Royal Family....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    It was their decision to abandon being working royals to live a life of luxury in California, not the royal families.

    They are below the Queen, Charles and Camilla and the Cambridges, Princess Anne and the Wessexes as should now be the case as they all still do royal duties.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9655131/Meghan-Markle-Prince-Harry-DEMOTED-Royal-Family-website.html
    But the Duke of York does no royal duties either so why his Prince Harry ranked lower than him, both fought in wars, so it can't be a military thing.
    Age?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    Interesting that he is searching for deeper meaning when a book, even a great one, like life, may not have such a deeper meaning, and I'd have assumed he would be against looking for meaning in things.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    It was their decision to abandon being working royals to live a life of luxury in California, not the royal families.

    They are below the Queen, Charles and Camilla and the Cambridges, Princess Anne and the Wessexes as should now be the case as they all still do royal duties.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9655131/Meghan-Markle-Prince-Harry-DEMOTED-Royal-Family-website.html
    But the Duke of York does no royal duties either so why his Prince Harry ranked lower than him, both fought in wars, so it can't be a military thing.
    Age being the tie breaker?
    Andrew before Henry
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    Mundo said:

    Long time lurker, very occasional poster. Genuine question: Is it law or convention that prevents an election during Summer holidays? What would the likely effect be on student towns’ votes? Would largely left leaning votes be spread more thinly amongst home towns?

    Sorry if this has already been said. In principle elections can happen on any day. But the FTPA standardises the date to Thursday in early May. This has been overcome by parliament twice already, and is not particularly difficult, so the FTPA and is almost a dead letter. A bill is under way to try to restore the status quo ante by reviving the prerogative power. I'm not certain everyone agrees that this can be done in that way.

    As to votes, people can register as voters in more than one place but only vote once. No doubt students will generally vote in their seat of learning to concentrate the power of their left leaning vote, and will do so by post.

    The danger for students now is that it will become increasingly unclear whether the proper thing to do is to vote Lab, LD or Green (or of course SNP/PC where they apply) and without the guidance provided by candidates standing down and allying as the centre left a mess could ensue.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,656
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    It was their decision to abandon being working royals to live a life of luxury in California, not the royal families.

    They are below the Queen, Charles and Camilla and the Cambridges, Princess Anne and the Wessexes as should now be the case as they all still do royal duties.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9655131/Meghan-Markle-Prince-Harry-DEMOTED-Royal-Family-website.html
    But the Duke of York does no royal duties either so why his Prince Harry ranked lower than him, both fought in wars, so it can't be a military thing.
    Age?
    Well mentioning age in close proximity to Prince Andrew leads to unfortunate connotations for Prince Andrew.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    Although they wouldn’t have been able to buy Louisiana
    No they would have just taken it from Napoleon, as many Americans urged at the time.
    Which Americans were those?

    Alexander Hamilton. Have you heard of him? He wrote that the United States should "seize at once the Floridas and New Orleans and then negotiate." The two American consuls in New Orleans, Daniel Clark Jr. and William E. Hulings, wrote that the United States could take the territory without any bloodshed. Senator James Ross of Pennsylvania (a Federalist) introduced a resolution authorizing the deployment of 50,000 militiamen to take New Orleans. The Democratic-Republicans also supported a resolution that would've put 80,000 armed men on standby.

    It would have been far more in keeping with America's history of aggressive seizing of other people's territory, e.g. from Mexico and Spain, and then claiming to be anti-imperialist. Like a bunch of slave-owners committing treason in the name of liberty.

    Bullying, hypocritical theft is as American as it gets.
    Hang on, the conquest of Florida and the American-Mexican war were after the Louisiana purchase
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    No, it is not so much a lie as the result of agenda created "truth"

    1) There is a lower vaccination rate in group X
    2) Group X is a minority
    3) Being antivax is Bad
    4) Group X can't be do Bad Things, since they are a minority group.
    5) Therefor the lower vaccination rate in Group X must be due to racism, aliens, Donald Trump or something else.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Newham 44% of first jabs done

    Excel Centre available anytime you like tomorrow



  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
    I'm not sure the Tories want to suggest that individual poor actions by MPs is reflective of the entire party.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    May 2023 might be too late, boundary changes or otherwise.

    If the economy is starting to fail this time next year, Spring or early Autumn 2022 might be a better bet.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    It was their decision to abandon being working royals to live a life of luxury in California, not the royal families.

    They are below the Queen, Charles and Camilla and the Cambridges, Princess Anne and the Wessexes as should now be the case as they all still do royal duties.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9655131/Meghan-Markle-Prince-Harry-DEMOTED-Royal-Family-website.html
    But the Duke of York does no royal duties either so why his Prince Harry ranked lower than him, both fought in wars, so it can't be a military thing.
    Age?
    Well mentioning age in close proximity to Prince Andrew leads to unfortunate connotations for Prince Andrew.
    Has he been found guilty of any crime, m'learned friend?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    No, it is not so much a lie as the result of agenda created "truth"

    1) There is a lower vaccination rate in group X
    2) Group X is a minority
    3) Being antivax is Bad
    4) Group X can't be do Bad Things, since they are a minority group.
    5) Therefor the lower vaccination rate in Group X must be due to racism, aliens, Donald Trump or something else.
    Well put. Applies to a lot of things. It’s the excuse industry
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    edited June 2021

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Finally finished the biography of regicide John Cooke - bit hagiographical at times, but some interesting details about the actual construction and procedure of the trial of Charles I, and the contrast with the trials of the regicides themselves. It does make Thomas Fairfax look like a bit of a shit who has been whitewashed by history, but I guess I'll need to read a biography of him to judge that.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    At present rates of vaccination by 21/06 there will be over 80% of adults with at least one dose and over 60% with two doses.

    Now not all of those doses will be fully effective by then but on the other hand over 20% will have acquired immunity through infection.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,988
    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    I like Twitter in general but I think it’s a very bad thing for some people, even some very smart people. Contrarian, quirky little takes and hobby horses that probably wouldn’t last a good night’s sleep or the derision of your mates are released into the wild and end up defining you.

    Naomi Wolf seems to have been driven mad by Twitter, I can hardly believe she was like that all along.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    One thing we can categorically say is that the much-vaunted surge in vaccinations simply hasn’t happened. Francis and I were right to be sceptical - the roll out in recent weeks has been modest at best. Disappointing, and potentially critical for 21 June.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    Interesting that he is searching for deeper meaning when a book, even a great one, like life, may not have such a deeper meaning, and I'd have assumed he would be against looking for meaning in things.
    Not often I am even slightly on Dawkins' side on any contestable issue, but I am slightly on the side of anyone who says 'The emperor has no clothes' especially about the sort of stuff literati types rave about.

    Whereas on the subject of religion if ever an emperor was walking around stark naked under the delusion he is clothed with something worthwhile to contribute to philosophy or religious studies it is indeed he.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    Interesting that he is searching for deeper meaning when a book, even a great one, like life, may not have such a deeper meaning, and I'd have assumed he would be against looking for meaning in things.
    Kafka's The Trial is one of the greatest novels ever written. Insanely good. So clever. And that IS an allegory of some kind, or maybe a prophecy

    I tried to read a biography of Kafka once, I soon hit the problem that he had the most boring short life in literary history. He went to a spa, once, that was about it
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    I like Twitter in general but I think it’s a very bad thing for some people, even some very smart people. Contrarian, quirky little takes and hobby horses that probably wouldn’t last a good night’s sleep or the derision of your mates are released into the wild and end up defining you.

    Naomi Wolf seems to have been driven mad by Twitter, I can hardly believe she was like that all along.
    What have you done with theuniondivvie?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    edited June 2021

    May 2023 might be too late, boundary changes or otherwise.

    If the economy is starting to fail this time next year, Spring or early Autumn 2022 might be a better bet.

    Indeed. Timing an election so that it is not embarrassingly early but can happen before his wheels come off will be an art. But I would back the Boris to manage it.

    I agree that 2022 is by no means impossible, but a cause must be convincingly invented.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    I don't think it's reasonable to insinuate BigG is bigoted. I can't recall a single post he's ever made where he's ever given the slightest hint of that, whereas that's not the case for some other posters. I think you just like to provoke when it comes to the monarchy.

    FYI - I am also signing up to the NT again - now that Restore Trust has organised itself there is hope.
    The only reason to sign up to NT is for parking in Cornwall. Their properties are all sterile monstrosities of tedium. The only one which is interesting and that’s because it hasn’t been polished to Versailles level monotony, is Calle Abbey.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited June 2021
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
    I'm not sure the Tories want to suggest that individual poor actions by MPs is reflective of the entire party.
    Is there a Tory MP awaiting a serious trial?

    Actual question. Can't think of one. But given the motley crew in the Commons there might be a serial strangler, also MP for a Somerset seat, about to go before the beak
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    Interesting that he is searching for deeper meaning when a book, even a great one, like life, may not have such a deeper meaning, and I'd have assumed he would be against looking for meaning in things.
    Not often I am even slightly on Dawkins' side on any contestable issue, but I am slightly on the side of anyone who says 'The emperor has no clothes' especially about the sort of stuff literati types rave about.

    Whereas on the subject of religion if ever an emperor was walking around stark naked under the delusion he is clothed with something worthwhile to contribute to philosophy or religious studies it is indeed he.

    Oh, I'm very much on the side of questioning the apparent brilliance of quite a lot of critically acclaimed works, be they books or movies for example. I think the difference between the great and the bad is not as stark as critics act sometimes. But his specific reasons of questioning here do not seem particularly strong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
    I'm not sure the Tories want to suggest that individual poor actions by MPs is reflective of the entire party.
    Is there a Tory MP awaiting a serious trial?

    Actual question. Can't think of one. But given the motley crew in the Commons there might be a serial strangler, also MP for a Somerset seat, about to go before the beak
    I was thinking more that they would not want Rob Roberts, not under trial though he may be, held up as showing they were in a bad way.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,656
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
    I'm not sure the Tories want to suggest that individual poor actions by MPs is reflective of the entire party.
    Is there a Tory MP awaiting a serious trial?

    Actual question. Can't think of one. But given the motley crew in the Commons there might be a serial strangler, also MP for a Somerset seat, about to go before the beak
    Not trial but Rob Roberts says hello.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/27/commons-suspends-tory-mp-rob-roberts-over-sexual-harassment
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,656
    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Cheers, will add that to the list.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,237
    edited June 2021

    FPT:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    "Hundreds of students missed out on a jab as UCL clinic 'ran out of supplies' (Daily Telegraph)."

    As DavidL and I amongst others have pointed out, we have become shit on the vaccine rollout. The past month has been piss poor given the need to jab fast.

    We should be jabbing 1 million a day. We're barely averaging 150,000 1st jabs. It's not good enough.

    Typical Boris.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-nepal-variant-cases-vaccine-news/

    Can you provide evidence of this massive stockpile of vaccines that are languishing unused?
    You really can be an arse sometimes. Yet again you respond to a genuine issue with a side-show response, laced with facetiousness.

    Three months ago we should have been piling on everything conceivable to ensure supplies ramp up. Foresight is part of leadership. Boris has neither.

    Everything, everything, conceivable should have been done to ensure we jab a million a day.

    Vaccinating 150,000 first jabs a day is quite simply not good enough.

    This is piss poor oversight.
    No. This simple fact is that we are in a supply constrained world. I’d love it if biological manufacturing was easy* but it’s fucking hard to do consistently, at scale and with high quality. You usually have years to optimise the process. For obvious reasons they haven’t this time. Three months is no time.

    The issue has been the delays to Novavax (I’m sceptical of that company given the litany of disasters over the last 20 years) but @MaxPB knows the specifics there better than I do.

    I know you hate Boris (and by the way there is going to be a big step towards opening on June 21st, although I suspect that WFH guidance and masks on public transport will remain) but try to not let your hatred overcome an analysis of the facts

    Sure 1m a day would be great. But we don’t have the vaccines.

    * actually I wouldn’t, but whatever
    Now, part of the answer is that we don't really know what vaccines we have delivered, or what the mix is- because the government has kept the bulk of that information to themselves. That could be because the government has signed contracts that kept more of the delivery data under wraps, or it could be that the government is using access to data as a power move, or they like the current narrative and don't want it disturbed. Either way, there's nothing like the openness with data of the French; have a look at https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker/ to see what they're releasing.

    But there are scraps of data out there. Scotland has reported its weekly deliveries and they must surely be in proportion to population. There's some usage stats in the MHRA Yellow Card scheme. That sort of thing. Put those together, make some reasonable assumptions to fill in the gaps, check how your model works going forward... you can infer a lot about UK vaccine supply.

    When I say "you can", I mean "someone has";
    https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood

    Taking what he's worked out (and we can't really do better):
    Next week should be good- over 4 million doses in total for the week. Remains to be seen if that is sustained.
    There's an awful lot of doses somewhere between the factory and people's arms; getting on for 12 million. The Welsh vaccination stats show what is possible.
    The supply chain between the "factory" (initial production) and people's arms is long - a number of weeks. So at any one time there will be a large number of weeks of production that has left the initial production site and is going though various processes to make it actually ready.

    I'm trying to remember the chaps name - he appeared in the documentary on the UK vaccine effort. One of the senior coordinators of the whole thing. He was asked if they should try to double production - he said that he thought that that was a bad idea, since the supply system as a whole was quite delicate.
    Sure- but the difference is also how long it takes to get the vaccines which are ready-to-go and then get them into arms. Wales is doing this faster than the rest of the UK; making better use of the completed vaccines than other nations.

    There's an interview with Paul Mainwood at the beginning of this episode of More or Less;
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wc4t

    A few points of difference from the interview;
    Wales has chosen to be a bit more ballsy about doing first doses without being 100% sure that the second dose was already in a vial somewhere.
    Wales has gone down the age groups faster by opening up to (age-1) when a lower percentage of (age) had been jabbed.
    Wales has done a better job of getting its share of the UK supply out of the national (metaphorical) pipeline and into vaccination centres.

    Basically, @Cocky_cockney has got a point; having made an excellent start to the vaccine programme by lots of good judgement and a few bits of good luck, Westminster does seem to have rested on its laurels a bit. Couple that with some poor judgement (staying open to India too long), poor luck (delays to some of the other vaccines) and inevitable consequences (we knew that delaying 2nd doses would delay secure immunity but reasonably judged that to be a price worth paying) has left a window where delta Covid can sneak in.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    kle4 said:

    Finally finished the biography of regicide John Cooke - bit hagiographical at times, but some interesting details about the actual construction and procedure of the trial of Charles I, and the contrast with the trials of the regicides themselves. It does make Thomas Fairfax look like a bit of a shit who has been whitewashed by history, but I guess I'll need to read a biography of him to judge that.

    From the point of view of the regicides he was a turncoat.

    From his own point of view - Fairfax was always a moderate who wasn't up for joining in the self-racheting incrementalism of the hard liners of the Parliamentary cause. He didn't want to execute the king and thought it was a bad idea and pretty hypocritical. So he didn't sign up to join in that action.

    For a bit of a shit - how about Hugh Peters? Tried to claim afterwards that he had nothing to do with the execution...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    Interesting that he is searching for deeper meaning when a book, even a great one, like life, may not have such a deeper meaning, and I'd have assumed he would be against looking for meaning in things.
    Kafka's The Trial is one of the greatest novels ever written. Insanely good. So clever. And that IS an allegory of some kind, or maybe a prophecy

    I tried to read a biography of Kafka once, I soon hit the problem that he had the most boring short life in literary history. He went to a spa, once, that was about it
    Reminds me of seeing a biopic of Tolkein. He actually did have some interesting things happen, but the filmakers obviously hit the problem that philology is not visually exciting, so had to sprinkle flashbacks to WW1 throughout to spice things up.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    A lie doesn’t need to be “credible or coherent”. It just needs to chime with people’s prejudices and enough will believe and repeat it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I do not intend engaging with you

    You are completely out of order
    So you won't answer why you were amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below Prince Andrew amused you.

    Don't complain if people will draw their own conclusions about you.
    Many will find the fall of Harry and Megan in the public perception deserved after their full on attack on the Royal Family
    "Amusing" though?

    I wouldn't mind so much

    FPT:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    "Hundreds of students missed out on a jab as UCL clinic 'ran out of supplies' (Daily Telegraph)."

    As DavidL and I amongst others have pointed out, we have become shit on the vaccine rollout. The past month has been piss poor given the need to jab fast.

    We should be jabbing 1 million a day. We're barely averaging 150,000 1st jabs. It's not good enough.

    Typical Boris.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-nepal-variant-cases-vaccine-news/

    Can you provide evidence of this massive stockpile of vaccines that are languishing unused?
    You really can be an arse sometimes. Yet again you respond to a genuine issue with a side-show response, laced with facetiousness.

    Three months ago we should have been piling on everything conceivable to ensure supplies ramp up. Foresight is part of leadership. Boris has neither.

    Everything, everything, conceivable should have been done to ensure we jab a million a day.

    Vaccinating 150,000 first jabs a day is quite simply not good enough.

    This is piss poor oversight.
    No. This simple fact is that we are in a supply constrained world. I’d love it if biological manufacturing was easy* but it’s fucking hard to do consistently, at scale and with high quality. You usually have years to optimise the process. For obvious reasons they haven’t this time. Three months is no time.

    The issue has been the delays to Novavax (I’m sceptical of that company given the litany of disasters over the last 20 years) but @MaxPB knows the specifics there better than I do.

    I know you hate Boris (and by the way there is going to be a big step towards opening on June 21st, although I suspect that WFH guidance and masks on public transport will remain) but try to not let your hatred overcome an analysis of the facts

    Sure 1m a day would be great. But we don’t have the vaccines.

    * actually I wouldn’t, but whatever
    Now, part of the answer is that we don't really know what vaccines we have delivered, or what the mix is- because the government has kept the bulk of that information to themselves. That could be because the government has signed contracts that kept more of the delivery data under wraps, or it could be that the government is using access to data as a power move, or they like the current narrative and don't want it disturbed. Either way, there's nothing like the openness with data of the French; have a look at https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker/ to see what they're releasing.

    But there are scraps of data out there. Scotland has reported its weekly deliveries and they must surely be in proportion to population. There's some usage stats in the MHRA Yellow Card scheme. That sort of thing. Put those together, make some reasonable assumptions to fill in the gaps, check how your model works going forward... you can infer a lot about UK vaccine supply.

    When I say "you can", I mean "someone has";
    https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood

    Taking what he's worked out (and we can't really do better):
    Next week should be good- over 4 million doses in total for the week. Remains to be seen if that is sustained.
    There's an awful lot of doses somewhere between the factory and people's arms; getting on for 12 million. The Welsh vaccination stats show what is possible.
    The supply chain between the "factory" (initial production) and people's arms is long - a number of weeks. So at any one time there will be a large number of weeks of production that has left the initial production site and is going though various processes to make it actually ready.

    I'm trying to remember the chaps name - he appeared in the documentary on the UK vaccine effort. One of the senior coordinators of the whole thing. He was asked if they should try to double production - he said that he thought that that was a bad idea, since the supply system as a whole was quite delicate.
    Sure- but the difference is also how long it takes to get the vaccines which are ready-to-go and then get them into arms. Wales is doing this faster than the rest of the UK; making better use of the completed vaccines than other nations.

    There's an interview with Paul Mainwood at the beginning of this episode of More or Less;
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wc4t

    A few points of difference from the interview;
    Wales has chosen to be a bit more ballsy about doing first doses without being 100% sure that the second dose was already in a vial somewhere.
    Wales has gone down the age groups faster by opening up to (age-1) when a lower percentage of (age) had been jabbed.
    Wales has done a better job of getting its share of the UK supply out of the national (metaphorical) pipeline and into vaccination centres.

    Basically, @Cocky_cockney has got a point; having made an excellent start to the vaccine programme by lots of good judgement and a few bits of good luck, Westminster does seem to have rested on its laurels a bit. Couple that with some poor judgement (staying open to India too long), poor luck (delays to some of the other vaccines) and inevitable consequences (we knew that delaying 2nd doses would delay secure immunity but reasonably judged that to be a price worth paying) has left a window where delta Covid can sneak in.
    Unless the approach is zero covid, the variant would have made it to the UK regardless.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889


    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.

    In Newham, approximately one third of the adult population has not had a single vaccination. As many will know, Newham is an ethnically diverse and complex area but I suspect there are plenty of vaccine refusers within the WWC as well as among other groups.

    I offered the thought the other night in some cultures and families, whether matriarchal or patriarchal, the opinion of the "head of the family" carries a lot of weight. If that person refuses the vaccine, it's likely most of the family will as well. Add in religious and peer group pressures and you can see how the numbers of those not vaccinated might grow.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    IshmaelZ said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    You have a sense of proportion about child abuse?
    This is disgraceful and utterly uncalled for

    Child abuse is heinous and both you and TSE are out of order
    I agree child abuse is heinous so why are you amused that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have been demoted below Prince Andrew who had to quit public life because of his relationship with a convicted and serial child abuser?
    Are you accusing Prince Andrew of child abuse

    And it is the Palace who have demoted them below Andrew
    No, if you could read, I said he was friends with a convicted and serial child abuser, which led to his disgrace and quitting royal duties.

    But you said you were amused that the Sussexes ranked lower than him, which says so much about you.
    My reaI dislike is disloyalty in families and public disloyalty to the Royal Family
    You must hate the PM then, he has a history of disloyalty to umpteen families, and of serial child abandonment.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    Although they wouldn’t have been able to buy Louisiana
    No they would have just taken it from Napoleon, as many Americans urged at the time.
    Which Americans were those?

    Alexander Hamilton. Have you heard of him? He wrote that the United States should "seize at once the Floridas and New Orleans and then negotiate." The two American consuls in New Orleans, Daniel Clark Jr. and William E. Hulings, wrote that the United States could take the territory without any bloodshed. Senator James Ross of Pennsylvania (a Federalist) introduced a resolution authorizing the deployment of 50,000 militiamen to take New Orleans. The Democratic-Republicans also supported a resolution that would've put 80,000 armed men on standby.

    It would have been far more in keeping with America's history of aggressive seizing of other people's territory, e.g. from Mexico and Spain, and then claiming to be anti-imperialist. Like a bunch of slave-owners committing treason in the name of liberty.

    Bullying, hypocritical theft is as American as it gets.
    Hang on, the conquest of Florida and the American-Mexican war were after the Louisiana purchase
    Yes but the tradition continued long after. And I charitably didn't mention the aggressive seizure of Indian lands.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    Yes, Montreal has jolly good food. Even the chips with cheese and gravy thing is nice

    Otherwise I found it a touch disappointing. A bitter climate, fairly unimpressive architecture, grumpy Quebecois pissed off that they are not proper French or proper Americans

    I hear Quebec City, despite being even colder, has more sass. I've not been
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    Finally finished the biography of regicide John Cooke - bit hagiographical at times, but some interesting details about the actual construction and procedure of the trial of Charles I, and the contrast with the trials of the regicides themselves. It does make Thomas Fairfax look like a bit of a shit who has been whitewashed by history, but I guess I'll need to read a biography of him to judge that.

    From the point of view of the regicides he was a turncoat.

    From his own point of view - Fairfax was always a moderate who wasn't up for joining in the self-racheting incrementalism of the hard liners of the Parliamentary cause. He didn't want to execute the king and thought it was a bad idea and pretty hypocritical. So he didn't sign up to join in that action.

    For a bit of a shit - how about Hugh Peters? Tried to claim afterwards that he had nothing to do with the execution...
    The particular rationale against Fairfax in this work, which is not by a historian in fairness, is that his prominence and power around the Purge and in the country was such that his claims to not be involved don't really stand up. The idea being for instance that the soldiers guarding things throughout served under him, and if he'd wanted to stop things he could have tried, and certainly given his wartime leadership he was surely more guilty of treason than many of those who ended up paying the price for it (though he was not as bad as some of those who sat in judgement of the regicides, who had been prominent parliamentarians, though even then some of those had rejected the incrementalism way before Fairfax did, indeed they had opposed things he had done),.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    A lie doesn’t need to be “credible or coherent”. It just needs to chime with people’s prejudices and enough will believe and repeat it.
    Yes, but being credible and coherent would induce more people to believe and repeat it, where prejudice is not sufficient.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    I like Twitter in general but I think it’s a very bad thing for some people, even some very smart people. Contrarian, quirky little takes and hobby horses that probably wouldn’t last a good night’s sleep or the derision of your mates are released into the wild and end up defining you.

    Naomi Wolf seems to have been driven mad by Twitter, I can hardly believe she was like that all along.
    A lot of really clever people are turned in to idiots by Twitter, seen it happen too many times to mention. Best to just avoid social media completely.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    I think there’s a rivalry a la England / Australia (the mainland French consider the Québécois slightly below-stairs). But Paris-Montreal is one of the world’s most popular air routes, and many Francophone companies have bilateral operations across the two territories - eg Ubisoft of Assassins’ Creed fame.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    Yes. But Poutine.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    .

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It's a bizarre argument, I may have mentioned on here people like my father were recruited to go and persuade ethnic minority groups to get jabbed, something he did with great success.

    Unless Ms Begum wants the government to vaccinate people without their consent there's not much more the government can do.
    It's a completely stupid argument. Vaccines have been universally available without discrimination or prejudice. Anyone over the age of 30 can simply go online and book a slot and get a vaccine within a few days and a second dose 6-8 weeks later. Doesn't matter if the person is white, black, brown or something else entirely.

    Completely mental.
    And Apsana Begum is also the MP going on trial in July for quite serious Housing Fraud - a potential jail sentence at the end of it

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html


    The Labour Party really is in a bad way
    I'm not sure the Tories want to suggest that individual poor actions by MPs is reflective of the entire party.
    Is there a Tory MP awaiting a serious trial?

    Actual question. Can't think of one. But given the motley crew in the Commons there might be a serial strangler, also MP for a Somerset seat, about to go before the beak
    Not trial but Rob Roberts says hello.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/27/commons-suspends-tory-mp-rob-roberts-over-sexual-harassment
    Last parliament, but I recall Charlie Elphick had some local difficulties.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    I think there’s a rivalry a la England / Australia (the mainland French consider the Québécois slightly below-stairs). But Paris-Montreal is one of the world’s most popular air routes, and many Francophone companies have bilateral operations across the two territories - eg Ubisoft of Assassins’ Creed fame.
    Its a great city in summer time....shame about the winter.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    Everyone's a critic




    It is perhaps further evidence that Hawkins has no soul. Metamorphosis is an amazing work, and far more accessible than most Kafka. I read it 40 years ago, and it has stayed in my memory.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    Yes, Montreal has jolly good food. Even the chips with cheese and gravy thing is nice

    Otherwise I found it a touch disappointing. A bitter climate, fairly unimpressive architecture, grumpy Quebecois pissed off that they are not proper French or proper Americans

    I hear Quebec City, despite being even colder, has more sass. I've not been
    Quebec City is supposed to be lovely - outside the winter months!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited June 2021
    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Yes!

    The greatest garden in the world

    My first visit there was the first time I realised a garden could be a true work of art, and high art at that. I have since been to many other great gardens, all over the world, but nothing quite matches Stourhead

    England's greatest contribution to human culture, after our language?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    I don't think it's reasonable to insinuate BigG is bigoted. I can't recall a single post he's ever made where he's ever given the slightest hint of that, whereas that's not the case for some other posters. I think you just like to provoke when it comes to the monarchy.

    FYI - I am also signing up to the NT again - now that Restore Trust has organised itself there is hope.
    The only reason to sign up to NT is for parking in Cornwall. Their properties are all sterile monstrosities of tedium. The only one which is interesting and that’s because it hasn’t been polished to Versailles level monotony, is Calle Abbey.
    Confession time: I always found NT properties boring as a child, and far preferred English Heritage.

    Why? Because as a kid you can play at soldiers with castles, arrowslits and cannons and charge the portcullis - they often had exciting reenactments too.

    NT properties are popular because adults like to imagine what it's like to be Lord of the manor, but that's not that interesting for kids.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    stodge said:


    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.

    In Newham, approximately one third of the adult population has not had a single vaccination. As many will know, Newham is an ethnically diverse and complex area but I suspect there are plenty of vaccine refusers within the WWC as well as among other groups.

    I offered the thought the other night in some cultures and families, whether matriarchal or patriarchal, the opinion of the "head of the family" carries a lot of weight. If that person refuses the vaccine, it's likely most of the family will as well. Add in religious and peer group pressures and you can see how the numbers of those not vaccinated might grow.

    It's sad that we've let such cultural values take root in this country.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    stodge said:


    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.

    In Newham, approximately one third of the adult population has not had a single vaccination. As many will know, Newham is an ethnically diverse and complex area but I suspect there are plenty of vaccine refusers within the WWC as well as among other groups.

    I offered the thought the other night in some cultures and families, whether matriarchal or patriarchal, the opinion of the "head of the family" carries a lot of weight. If that person refuses the vaccine, it's likely most of the family will as well. Add in religious and peer group pressures and you can see how the numbers of those not vaccinated might grow.

    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    My missus works in a very undiverse school in Tower Hamlets. The kids have told the teachers they are embarrassed of their anti-vaxxer parents who are stuck in the past. If there’s hope, it lies in the kids
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Interesting. The colonised don't want to be "decolonised". The reasons given are similar to those that oppose iconoclasm in the UK too:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/june-2021/the-last-statues-of-empire/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Finally finished the biography of regicide John Cooke - bit hagiographical at times, but some interesting details about the actual construction and procedure of the trial of Charles I, and the contrast with the trials of the regicides themselves. It does make Thomas Fairfax look like a bit of a shit who has been whitewashed by history, but I guess I'll need to read a biography of him to judge that.

    From the point of view of the regicides he was a turncoat.

    From his own point of view - Fairfax was always a moderate who wasn't up for joining in the self-racheting incrementalism of the hard liners of the Parliamentary cause. He didn't want to execute the king and thought it was a bad idea and pretty hypocritical. So he didn't sign up to join in that action.

    For a bit of a shit - how about Hugh Peters? Tried to claim afterwards that he had nothing to do with the execution...
    The particular rationale against Fairfax in this work, which is not by a historian in fairness, is that his prominence and power around the Purge and in the country was such that his claims to not be involved don't really stand up. The idea being for instance that the soldiers guarding things throughout served under him, and if he'd wanted to stop things he could have tried, and certainly given his wartime leadership he was surely more guilty of treason than many of those who ended up paying the price for it (though he was not as bad as some of those who sat in judgement of the regicides, who had been prominent parliamentarians, though even then some of those had rejected the incrementalism way before Fairfax did, indeed they had opposed things he had done),.
    Yes - the flip side, which was accepted by Royalists, was that while he had been a full supporter of the early parliamentary cause, he simply hadn't joined in with their more and more radical ideas. Which was apparent in his withdrawal from the political side until he was supplanted by Cromwell.

    From the point of the Good Old Causers, he appeared a traitor - because he left the Cause. There was even a theme that if he had been on board for the rest of the trip, he would have stopped Cromwell, who a number of them saw as having betrayed the Cause by making himself a virtual king. It was all Fairfax's fault....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    stodge said:


    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.

    In Newham, approximately one third of the adult population has not had a single vaccination. As many will know, Newham is an ethnically diverse and complex area but I suspect there are plenty of vaccine refusers within the WWC as well as among other groups.

    I offered the thought the other night in some cultures and families, whether matriarchal or patriarchal, the opinion of the "head of the family" carries a lot of weight. If that person refuses the vaccine, it's likely most of the family will as well. Add in religious and peer group pressures and you can see how the numbers of those not vaccinated might grow.

    That should be an easy effect to see in some northern towns. I had thought take up amongst white people was near universal though.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    Yes, Montreal has jolly good food. Even the chips with cheese and gravy thing is nice

    Otherwise I found it a touch disappointing. A bitter climate, fairly unimpressive architecture, grumpy Quebecois pissed off that they are not proper French or proper Americans

    I hear Quebec City, despite being even colder, has more sass. I've not been
    Old Québec City? Quite romantic. If you didn't think look too far you'd think you were deep in traditional metropolitan France in its historic old centre.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Cheers, will add that to the list.
    May/June are the best months by far, when the rhododendron are in flower.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,656
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Cheers, will add that to the list.
    May/June are the best months by far, when the rhododendron are in flower.
    Ah, if I wasn't going to Blackpool this month then I would have gone this month.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    I don't think it's reasonable to insinuate BigG is bigoted. I can't recall a single post he's ever made where he's ever given the slightest hint of that, whereas that's not the case for some other posters. I think you just like to provoke when it comes to the monarchy.

    FYI - I am also signing up to the NT again - now that Restore Trust has organised itself there is hope.
    The only reason to sign up to NT is for parking in Cornwall. Their properties are all sterile monstrosities of tedium. The only one which is interesting and that’s because it hasn’t been polished to Versailles level monotony, is Calle Abbey.
    I thought Chartwell was good when I went there a few years ago, it wasn't particularly polished.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    I think there’s a rivalry a la England / Australia (the mainland French consider the Québécois slightly below-stairs). But Paris-Montreal is one of the world’s most popular air routes, and many Francophone companies have bilateral operations across the two territories - eg Ubisoft of Assassins’ Creed fame.
    Most French Quebecois voted to leave Canada in 1995 and for Quebec to become an independent state, it was only the English speaking residents of Quebec who ensure No narrowly won
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I don't think there have been such lazy assumptions, given there seems to be a lot of data that while it obviously isn't solely ethnic minority communities (or even all ethnic minorities are the same), the take up figures for specific ethnicities cannot be ignored.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    A lie doesn’t need to be “credible or coherent”. It just needs to chime with people’s prejudices and enough will believe and repeat it.
    Yes, but being credible and coherent would induce more people to believe and repeat it, where prejudice is not sufficient.
    I don’t think the unprejudiced are the target audience…
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    Leon said:

    Everyone's a critic




    That's a really bizarre take from Dawkins. A properly smart guy

    Metamorphosis doesn't have to be an allegory of anything, or a satire, or a parody, or science fiction - to be a work of genius

    It's about a guy turning into a beetle, and how he would feel if that happened. It is a believable account of what he would feel. It is deliciously uneasy and spooky for that reason. You CAN see it as an allegory if you want, but it isn't necessary at all, for it to be great literature

    This is maybe why Dawkins doesn't Get God, or understand why others do
    God alone knows what Kafka would have made of social media.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It’s a lie designed to paint the government in a bad light
    Sure, but if it is a deliberate lie it is odd as it is not credible or coherent, and it is not deliberate then it says something about her ability to craft arguments.
    A lie doesn’t need to be “credible or coherent”. It just needs to chime with people’s prejudices and enough will believe and repeat it.
    Yes, but being credible and coherent would induce more people to believe and repeat it, where prejudice is not sufficient.
    I don’t think the unprejudiced are the target audience…
    But even the prejudiced will have different levels of credulity. She presumably wants as many of her intended audience as possible to buy her argument, but poorly presented even that won't happen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021
    According to Brittas, the evil Tories the Tories the Tories the Tories caused a watered down rate...on the new corporate tax announcement....think of the nurses....

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1401172445436989442?s=19

    Even the bod from the left leaning IPPR on Ch4 News this evening said this seems like a sensible and good approach.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Yes!

    The greatest garden in the world

    My first visit there was the first time I realised a garden could be a true work of art, and high art at that. I have since been to many other great gardens, all over the world, but nothing quite matches Stourhead

    England's greatest contribution to human culture, after our language?
    It does amuse me that the owner moved a hill to improve the view.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Leon said:

    Men only vaccine clinics in Batley

    Kirklees Council
    @KirkleesCouncil
    ·
    6h
    There’s a men only COVID-19 pop up vaccination clinic at Jame Masjid, Henry Street, Batley, WF17 6JJ this evening .

    Come along 6-10pm to get your jab
    @CuroHealth


    https://twitter.com/KirkleesCouncil/status/1401150613157777410?s=20

    If one tweet could sum up why Labour are fucked it’s this. The mental gymnastics to try and keep both the LGBTQ and local Muslim community under the same umbrella is quite a sight to behold. Look forward to them losing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I do not usually post trivial but this amused me

    Prince Harry and Megan have been demoted below Prince Andrew by the Palace

    Only a bigot would be amused by that.
    I have never in my 77 years been called a bigot by anyone

    You need to get a sense of humour
    So tell us why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex being demoted below the disgraced Prince Andrew, friend of nonces amused you?

    Or do you think child abuse is something to laugh about?
    You are being utterly absurd

    Get a sense of proportion and your last sentence is just disgusting
    So answer the question, why did it amuse you?
    I know you're trolling but I think some of your tweets to BigG are out of order.

    Bury it, and let's move on.
    Don't be a snowflake and inflict your cancel culture on me.

    FYI - I signed up to the National Trust today.
    Can I recommend Stourhead? Wonderful at this time of year. Don’t bother with the house but take your lady love for a walk around the gardens which are incomparable.
    Cheers, will add that to the list.
    May/June are the best months by far, when the rhododendron are in flower.
    Bah, you get lovely rhododendrons in Valentine's Park over our way, and lots of azaleas too!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Dom doesn't play by your rules, man, he's such an edgy rebel.

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Dominic Cummings has missed the deadline set by the committee of MPs to submit emails, notes and other material to support his claims against Matt Hancock

    Via @ObserverUK
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I don't think there have been such lazy assumptions, given there seems to be a lot of data that while it obviously isn't solely ethnic minority communities (or even all ethnic minorities are the same), the take up figures for specific ethnicities cannot be ignored.
    It would also be very easy to demonstrate with figures from a health authority that is predominantly WWC.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,100
    edited June 2021

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Quincel said:

    I think the UK winning the American Revolutionary War is a really interesting counter-factual. I find it hard to believe that the independence movement wouldn't have continued and the US eventually split off - but it may surely have been a couple of decades (or even more) later and perhaps led to a very different world.

    Obviously possible, but didn't happen with Canada and Australia.

    Another possibility is that the real centre - economic if not political - of the British Empire could have moved from London to New York or Philadelphia over the next century. That was the view of a distinguished history professor who lectured at my school many years ago.
    At time of American Revolution "Canada" really meant Quebec. Which American Revolutionaries saw as a potential ally against the British, hence they invaded it.

    However, turned out that the bulk of Quebeckers - in particular the Catholic Church - supported the Brits against the Americans, who they called "Bostonais". Because they feared the (to them) radical Protestantism of New England AND its economic rivalry. Whereas by 1770s the Brits were seen as protecting both the religion AND interests of Quebec.
    I think there was a third reason, too. They were mostly royalists, and the USA was aligned with revolutionary France.
    It's always struck me how little time the Québécois and mainland French have for each other.

    You'd think they've have a relationship similar to the UK/Australia, but they don't.
    I used to work in Paris. I recall going to Montreal for a break and thinking that it would be easy. Great fun but their accent made the Marseilles accent sound sophisticated. They’re North American with more affinity to Florida than France,

    Everywhere has an overwhelming miasma of maple syrup and icing sugar as well.
    The mangled French is fair criticism, but the food...a load of superb restaurants there. Food scene is a cut above your standard North American city.
    Yes, Montreal has jolly good food. Even the chips with cheese and gravy thing is nice

    Otherwise I found it a touch disappointing. A bitter climate, fairly unimpressive architecture, grumpy Quebecois pissed off that they are not proper French or proper Americans

    I hear Quebec City, despite being even colder, has more sass. I've not been
    Old Québec City? Quite romantic. If you didn't think look too far you'd think you were deep in traditional metropolitan France in its historic old centre.
    15 years ago we went on a coach tour from New York to Canada including Quebec, and on going out for dinner on our stay we were taken to a French restaurant

    We were not told we had to order and speak in French beforehand, but we were told inside the restaurant and more than half the bus were asked to leave as they had no understanding of French at all

    Fortunately my 'O' level French came in handy and we enjoyed our meal very much and Quebec is fascinating and very interesting
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    kle4 said:

    A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated. Labour MP Apsana Begum says this is the governments fault because of their “failure over so many months to prioritise vaccines for ethnic minority communities.”

    I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. Is it alleging that the government has not provided sufficient vaccines to areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities, or failed to find places to distribute them, which would be an explosive accusation. Because if they've provided the vaccines and means to delivery them, but it hasn't been taken up then I don't see how the government can get blamed for that - I'd have expected a criticism about not engaging with or communicating with ethnic minorities about it rather than not 'prioritising' vaccines for those areas.

    It would be interesting to compare vaccination rates among ethnic minorities in areas where they are in low numbers and so more integrated to areas where they are in higher numbers and become 'communities'.
    I misread the quote as A quarter of elderly black people in England have not been vaccinated against Labour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    According to Brittas, the evil Tories the Tories the Tories the Tories caused a watered down rate...on the new corporate tax announcement....think of the nurses....

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1401172445436989442?s=19

    Even the bod from the left leaning IPPR on Ch4 News this evening said this seems like a sensible and good approach.

    £131mn a week for the NHS. I wonder how that'd look on a bus?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    According to Brittas, the evil Tories the Tories the Tories the Tories caused a watered down rate...on the new corporate tax announcement....think of the nurses....

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1401172445436989442?s=19

    Even the bod from the left leaning IPPR on Ch4 News this evening said this seems like a sensible and good approach.

    Starmer looks and sounds NOTHING like Chris Barrie (or any of his creations!).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    edited June 2021
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I don't think there have been such lazy assumptions, given there seems to be a lot of data that while it obviously isn't solely ethnic minority communities (or even all ethnic minorities are the same), the take up figures for specific ethnicities cannot be ignored.
    It would also be very easy to demonstrate with figures from a health authority that is predominantly WWC.
    I would have thought. Though I have no evidence for the thought, that most white vaccine refusers would be middle class.

    Edit: See Leon made the point more stridently, cogently and coherently.
    As ever.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    Why mention White Brits as poss reason for the Newhams bad vaccination % when they make up less than 1/7 of the boroughs population, and have the highest vaccination take up in the country?

    Apart from not wanting to look racist or islamophobic, there’s no reason to think the ethnic minority in Newham called White British are to blame. If someone specifically mentioned any other group this way with no supporting evidence, in fact flying in the face of what evidence we have, it would be thought outrageous
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021
    According to the Telegraph, in shock news, Kate Bingham has quite rightly been awarded a Damehood.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited June 2021

    According to the Telegraph, in shock news, Kate Bingham has quite rightly been awarded a Damehood.

    Only that?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    According to the Telegraph, in shock news, Kate Bingham has quite rightly been awarded a Damehood.

    Which pantomime will she be appearing in?

    :lol:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited June 2021
    Weird Sunday Times front page, not a mention of the big G7 announcement.

    For the paper of record you would think it would be on there, not some stupid story about some quirky House of Lords election nonsense.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,237

    According to the Telegraph, in shock news, Kate Bingham has quite rightly been awarded a Damehood.

    Which pantomime will she be appearing in?

    :lol:
    Since she has been working for the government (and has done a stellar job herself), isn't the question which pantomime will she be in next?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    Which is richly ironic given how ready that lot are to condemn the WWC as stupid for voting for Brexit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I don't think there have been such lazy assumptions, given there seems to be a lot of data that while it obviously isn't solely ethnic minority communities (or even all ethnic minorities are the same), the take up figures for specific ethnicities cannot be ignored.
    It would also be very easy to demonstrate with figures from a health authority that is predominantly WWC.
    I would have thought. Though I have no evidence for the thought, that most white vaccine refusers would be middle class.

    Edit: See Leon made the point more stridently, cogently and coherently.
    As ever.
    I think more working class, as pretty consistently health care uptake worsens going down the scale. I think not a big effect though, Hartlepool is only 5% below the national average for first doses for example.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=ltla&areaName=Hartlepool
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
     

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    Which is richly ironic given how ready that lot are to condemn the WWC as stupid for voting for Brexit.
    Ah, you've found it! The anti-vaxxers are remainers.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    Over 50s up to 21 April



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Hmm, aiui the government pushed the 21% proposal down to 15% becuase they and others felt it was much more likely to gain assent from the G20 at 15% at which point it becomes unstoppable. It was literally a case of let's not make great the enemy of good. The UK felt that at 21% it would run into loads of G20 opposition and then that means reopening negotiations at that stage which means it gets watered down rather than it just being presented and passed.

    Biden's people, I guess, must have seen the wisdom of the approach and agreed but stuck in the "at least" 15% which allows for a future revision to bring it up.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    Just to point out it's the Saxony-Anhalt provincial election tomorrow.

    Suspect it won't be too bad for the CDU and the current coalition with the SPD and Greens (in effect an anti-AfD and anti-Linke grouping) will probably continue and with the FDP re-entering the Landtag, it could be strengthened.

    Anyway, tonight's European poll hot spot also votes this autumn - it's Czechia or the Czech Republic and the latest poll as follows (changes from the last election):

    *=governing party

    Pirates and Mayors: 24% (+8)
    SPOLU (alliance of centre-right parties): 23% (+1)
    ANO 2011*: 22% (-8)
    Freedom & Direct Democracy: 10% (unc)
    Communists: 6% (-2)
    Přísaha: 4% (new)
    Social Democrats*: 4% (-3)

    I've no idea who Prisaha are or what they are about. The current ANO-Social Democrat Government is threatened by two contrasting blocs - the Pirates & Mayors (which affiliates to the Greens and European Free Alliance group in the European Parliament) while SPOLU is the ungainly name for the coming together of three traditional centre-right parties - the Civic Democrats (the party formed by Vaclav Klaus from the original Civic Forum party formed by Vaclav Havel), the Christian Democrats and TOP09.

    ANO has governed since 2011 and is effectively the party of Prime Minister Andrej Babis, the second richest man in the Czech Republic, but after a decade, it's running out of steam.

    Freedom & Direct Democracy has been around since 2015 and is the party of Tomio Okamura (who is of mixed Moravian and Japanese parentage). It is part of the Identity & Democracy Group in the European Parliament - that group is dominated by the FN from France and Lega Nord from Italy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    Outspoken as ever. Lionel Shriver:

    “All of our liberties have become conditional, and they will stay conditional for ever. What is the difference between living under the Chinese Communist Party and the Conservative Party?"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/lionel-shriver-horrified-people-have-adapted-locked/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1622834352
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021
    What a shock to see Carole Codswallop sharing "Independent SAGE" codswallop.

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1400713809027907586
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited June 2021

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    Which is richly ironic given how ready that lot are to condemn the WWC as stupid for voting for Brexit.
    Yes, it is. One thing I have learned over recent, horribly turbulent years, is that the middle/upper middle classes can be SOOO fucking stupid, far more stupid than their "social inferiors". Likewise experts can be outrageously wrong, dim, biased and inexpert. And they lie.

    As for low UK vaccine hesitancy, I wonder if Britain benefits from our generalised respect for the NHS as a trustworthy institution. I'm not saying the NHS is perfect - far from it, it is deeply flawed - but like many Brits (I suspect) I have a deep cultural veneration for it is an institution that means well, strives to do well, and does not wish me harm, and which generally wants the best for me (however clumsily it achieves that).

    If the NHS says Take This Vaccine I reflexively think Oh, Yes, OK then I will, because I know the NHS successfully vaccinated my parents, and my kids, and did much else

    Ethnic minority communities maybe don't have this ingrained reflex, which might explain some of the disparity in hesitancy
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    The 'Bill Gates has microchipped the vaccine' conspiracy nutters and the 'Gaia is my goddess' new age nutters.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    isam said:


    Why mention White Brits as poss reason for the Newhams bad vaccination % when they make up less than 1/7 of the boroughs population, and have the highest vaccination take up in the country?

    Apart from not wanting to look racist or islamophobic, there’s no reason to think the ethnic minority in Newham called White British are to blame. If someone specifically mentioned any other group this way with no supporting evidence, in fact flying in the face of what evidence we have, it would be thought outrageous

    Again, you're throwing the "blame" word around for reasons I can't quite understand.

    I've made the not unreasonable point that among the 50,000 unvaccinated adults over 40 in Newham, there are going to be some White British - there are going to be members of other ethnic groups as well.

    I'm challenging the assertion put around by some the high rate of refusal in areas like Newham must be down to high refusal rates among "ethnic minorities". That may be right - putting up "national" numbers and comparing them with census data which is a decade old is far from convincing but we have no specific data at Borough level to answer the question.

    I would want all 50,000 to be vaccinated and I don't care when or how - I'm trying to find the answer to why they've not come forward and I think it's much more complex and nuanced than is sometimes suggested.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I don't think there have been such lazy assumptions, given there seems to be a lot of data that while it obviously isn't solely ethnic minority communities (or even all ethnic minorities are the same), the take up figures for specific ethnicities cannot be ignored.
    It would also be very easy to demonstrate with figures from a health authority that is predominantly WWC.
    I would have thought. Though I have no evidence for the thought, that most white vaccine refusers would be middle class.

    Edit: See Leon made the point more stridently, cogently and coherently.
    As ever.
    I think more working class, as pretty consistently health care uptake worsens going down the scale. I think not a big effect though, Hartlepool is only 5% below the national average for first doses for example.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=ltla&areaName=Hartlepool
    OK. But there is a difference between outright anti-vax refusal, and lack of engagement with healthcare and other authorities.
    I would suspect the former to be more middle class.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    geoffw said:

     

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:



    It sure is diverse. Don’t think the WWC can be blamed too much



    https://www.newham.info/newham-facts-and-figures/

    I'm not in the "blame" business - I'm pointing out it's worth considering the possibility of vaccine refusal among the White British and such numbers may not be insignificant.

    There's an undercurrent of lazy thinking assuming all those refusing the vaccine are from ethnic minorities and I'm challenging that.
    I've never thought that, there is PLENTY of anti-vaxxery amongst white British. However I would say it is different by class. Most WWC that I encounter are pretty sensible "sure, jab me up, get it done"

    The anti-vaxxing "whites" I know are ALL middle class, if not posh. The Greens, the Corbyn types, the very aristo Tories with odd views, astrologers, Extinction Rebellioners, student kids with social media memes in their heads
    Which is richly ironic given how ready that lot are to condemn the WWC as stupid for voting for Brexit.
    Ah, you've found it! The anti-vaxxers are remainers.

    Like Laurence Fox and Piers Corbyn?
This discussion has been closed.