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Boris should start Scottish independence negotiations now – politicalbetting.com

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  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    "@vonderleyen
    Happy to announce that @EU_Commission has just approved a contract for guaranteed 900 million doses (+900 million options) with @BioNTech_Group @Pfizer for 2021-2023.

    Other contracts and other vaccine technologies will follow."


    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1390967173460463619

    “Guaranteed”. Has she read it this time?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,451
    tlg86 said:

    Huw Edwards: It's not all bad for Labour, they've cleaned up in Liverpool.

    Even that isn't 100% true...the vote for mayor was well down.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421

    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    I wish they'd do raw totals, rather than percentages.

    Where can I get raw totals?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    AFU 284 😂
    I just looked up their website. Galloway appears to be using the RAF roundel. How did they let him get away with that?!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Boris didn't see off May ?

    He bottled the chance to stand against her.

    When she quit, he stood against weaker opposition
  • Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    AFU 284 😂
    I just looked up their website. Galloway appears to be using the RAF roundel. How did they let him get away with that?!
    Probably because no one is paying any attention to his band of eejits.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    BLM is no apolitical though.
    It ought to be. If everyone says it then it becomes meaningless, other than the bit everyone agrees to.

    It's only political if you let one group own the phrase.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,686
    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    Wrong. You only need 2.5% for the Mayoral deposit.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,451
    edited May 2021

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.

    Glitch, the "charity" who BT have partnered with, is the lobbying group setup by a former Labour politician who aim is to change government and big tech policies.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    In London, it looks as if Shaun Bailey will lose by about 44/45 to 56/55, which is a more creditable performance than seemed likely.

    And would give the lie to the idea that London is lost to the blues in an ocean of woke liberalism yearning for the sunlit uphills of Angela von de Leydenland.
    These jaundiced generalizations about large groups of people do tend to be nonsense, don't they?
    Sadly for Labour proving only too true......
    That's right, Felix. Jaundiced generalizations about large groups of people are only accurate when made by Tories.
    You mean like the left description immortalised by tim of PBTories..
    Afore my time. Bit of an "acid wit" by all accounts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited May 2021

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    AFU 284 😂
    I just looked up their website. Galloway appears to be using the RAF roundel. How did they let him get away with that?!
    Possibly because it's not a pukka Raff roundel with the radii in equal steps. I have a feeling it was like that to begin with. Edit: But I suspect it had to be changed - perhaps to avoid royalty payments. It doesn't correspond to any of the lower visiblity variants (with narrower white rings) as seen in WW2 etc either.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Is this looking likely?

    Senior Tories believe @theSNP is now going to get a majority. They say #BothVotesSNP list strategy appears to have done the business

    Makes no sense. In the list votes we've seen so far the SNP are down on 2016 AND they have picked up constiuency seats. Where do these "Senior Tories" think the List gain(s) are coming from?
    Surprises me too. Expectation management?

    Beeb feed -

    David Mundell anticipates SNP majority

    Former Scottish Secretary David MundellImage caption: Former Scottish Secretary David Mundell
    David Mundell accepts the SNP are going to win and he anticipates they will have a majority, as they will pick up some list seats.
    etc etc
    A ludicrous statement from David Mundell. The leader of the ScotCons - @HYUFD - has made it clear that there will be NO majority for the Junts pel Si and that there will be no mandate for another referendum in Catalonia.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714

    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
    Con in 2002-2005 and in 2009-2013.

    But the Tynemouth part of the Borough is trending Labour (not gained until 1997 but stayed Labour in 2019 by a comfortable margin).
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    Owen Jones is always at his best when eviscerating the soft Left. His latest effort is a corker.

    Starmer’s pitch was always relational – he was more capable than his predecessor and opponent. His team believed that by acting like the grownups in the room, like the characters in Bugsy Malone, it would all fall into place. But they bet the house on competence – a dividing line incinerated by the NHS’s successful vaccine rollout – rather than a compelling alternative vision for the country. Having lost a seat that Corbyn outperformed him in twice, it’s Starmer who looks like the less than competent politician now, with no values to compensate. Instead of pointing out what he stood against, he should have decided what he stood for. The electorate doesn’t have a clue – and increasingly, it seems, neither does he.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/07/hartlepool-labour-lack-vision-corbyn-starmer
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.
    Only if you let extremists own the phrase. Its the same as abandoning the flag to fascists.

    If everyone says black lives matter then all it means is that black lives matter.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited May 2021
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    The Labour pivot to Ref2 wasn't about Starmer. It was forced by the membership and by a realpolitik imperative - to mitigate the risk of being eclipsed by the LDs if they were left to swim the "stop Brexit" lane alone.

    I take your general point that Labour will continue to struggle with Leavers if they don't embrace the future outside the EU. I think they'll be able to do that whilst advocating closer ties (so long as the dreaded free movement is not a part of it.)

    But Labour's core support are not Leavers and this will not be changing. They have to retain and expand their Remainer vote and at the same time win back enough Leavers to get competitive. A difficult task, whoever the leader is.
    At heart is Labour’s desperation (or determination) to hang onto its position as sole opposition party and hence reject pluralist politics.

    Strategically, they’d have been better to let the LibDems take what they could from the Tories in areas that Labour is unlikely ever to win, as Blair did.

    The biggest question for Labour over coming years is whether it will embrace pluralism, and co-operation with other centre left parties, or whether it will continue to search for a formula that will somehow deliver 45% of the vote for them alone (and even with that, a majority requires that other parties mop up another 15% of the vote)
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    AFU 284 😂
    I just looked up their website. Galloway appears to be using the RAF roundel. How did they let him get away with that?!
    Probably because no one is paying any attention to his band of eejits.
    Still, would it have hurt anyone to subject to him to one more humiliation in court and stop him?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    Pleased to see that @isam 's ban has been lifted

    Can I make the case for @TheJezziah having his ban hammer removed? Yes he called me a nazi for calling out his anti-semitism, but he is funny...
    Didn't realize either he or isam were banned? How would one know if a poster is banned as opposed to just not choosing to post?
    My understanding is that the first rule of the ban hammer is that you don't talk about the ban hammer.
    Ah ok. Seems I've wandered into a Kafka!
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    Looks like it's worked to me. Nicola has destroyed Alba, whereas if SNP voters had second voted for Alba there'd be dozens of extra pro independence MSPs.
    Probably exactly what she wants, you are right..
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    tlg86 said:

    Huw Edwards: It's not all bad for Labour, they've cleaned up in Liverpool.

    Wow! I was really worried about that one..............
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Croome (Worcestershire) council result:

    Grn: 54.9% (+49.1)
    Con: 39.7% (-3.4)
    Lab: 3.1% (-3.4)
    LDem: 2.3% (+2.3)

    No Ind (-38.4) as prev.

    Grn GAIN from Con


    Accrington South (Lancashire) council result:

    Con: 49.8% (+5.2)
    Lab: 43.7% (-3.4)
    Grn: 6.5% (+6.5)

    No UKIP (-8.3) as prev.

    Con GAIN from Lab
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2021
    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    Look at the table below. It is not 80% counted yet.
    In Newham and Tower Hamlets only 20% have been verified, for ex.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    Once the Celtic scroungers have all gone the English will soon realise that Labour are completely unelectable and as nature abhors a vacumn, we will see a complete realignment of politics. An independent Scotland will no doubt go back to voting Labour but with nobody left to subsidise them....

    I can't agree with the use of the term "Celtic Scroungers" but I agree with the second point. The loss of the Scottish block has meant that Labour will never govern on its own again in my opinion.
    Really? Ninety years after independence we still had to bail out Ireland.
    Though this is conveniently forgotten by most..
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342



    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
    Con in 2002-2005 and in 2009-2013.

    But the Tynemouth part of the Borough is trending Labour (not gained until 1997 but stayed Labour in 2019 by a comfortable margin).
    Whitley Bay would greatly surprise anyone who hasn't been there in a couple of decades.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    On a potential Scottish referendum. will we soon be in a position that Johnston is arguing against but hoping that his hand is forced and Sturgeon is arguing for but hoping that it is blocked?

    It is absolutely in the best interests of the Greens and SNP for the referendum mandate to be blocked by Westminster. You'll get an immediate big spike in support for independence so that when it does happen it won't even be close.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    Looks like it's worked to me. Nicola has destroyed Alba, whereas if SNP voters had second voted for Alba there'd be dozens of extra pro independence MSPs.
    Even if Nicola has stormed it on the list she won't get more seats.

    (1) Her list vote will almost certainly be lower than her constituency vote (2) her consistency vote is only 47% this time, as opposed to 46.5% last time (3) she'll take 60-62 of the 73 available constituency seats, meaning her scope for top-ups is very small with a minority vote share (4) she can only really get top-ups in the South of Scotland, or in Highlands & Islands, and only 2-3 at that.

    If everything went right she might just be able to squeeze 65 but that's a stretch.

    He might mean that there will be a nationalist majority, or he might mean it's "worked" in the sense it's locked out Alba, or he might just be talking bollocks for the reasons @Theuniondivvie says.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
    ?

    Norma Redfearn has been incumbent since 2013. I think that may be her lowest vote % but would have to check.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Fishing, aye. Labour dicking about with the constitutional arrangement because they complacently thought they'd have Celtic fiefdoms forever has not been a great success for either the integrity of the UK or the electoral prospects of the Labour Party.

    They were afraid of the nationalists and hoped it would solve the issue.
    The history of New Labour was them being too clever by half, and it backfiring badly:

    - Scottish devolution
    - dodgy dossiers
    - financial regulation
    - mass immigration to "rub the right's noses in diversity"
    - allowing a house price boom to placate middle England but pricing the young out of the market
    - letting Northern Irish terrorists turn into gangsters to keep them quiet

    etc etc etc.

    Unfortunately for the country, they were not nearly as clever as they thought they were.
    One of the main advantages to Scotland falling off would be to kick the faltering Labour Party's walking stick away. How soon we forget 2017! We came within a hair's breadth of having Prime Minister Corbyn propped up by the SNP. The best insurance against a future far left Government in England: get shot of the Scottish MPs.

    Of course, you could argue that if we had an English Parliament, equity would be restored to the Union and an accommodation between a Labour minority and Scottish nationalism at UK level wouldn't be half so destructive. But we're not getting an English Parliament, so we must deal with the reality of things as they are. Separation is therefore best for everyone, except Labour which richly deserves to suffer the consequences of the hubristic imbecility of Blair, Brown, Dewar and all the rest of them.

    The Labour Party killed Britain. It deserves to be thrown into the grave along with it.
    Oh dear.

    When's the grand prix qualy again?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Elections fact for today: In 2015 David Cameron’s Conservatives won the UK election with a manifesto commitment to hold a Brexit Referendum. They went onto deliver on that pledge. They did so having won 36.9% of the vote.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewWilson/status/1390953859078569984
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    I think this article is absolutely bang on, not a foot wrong. The SNP have to argue for a referendum and use Brexit as leverage to create grievance but if they ever got the referendum they'd be screwed.

    Why didn't Salmond stand in Almond Valley?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,451
    edited May 2021

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.
    Only if you let extremists own the phrase. Its the same as abandoning the flag to fascists.

    If everyone says black lives matter then all it means is that black lives matter.
    As i said, BT partnered with Glitch. Its a lobby group who aim to change the laws around social media and setup by a politician.

    Sky eco campaign want change in world government policies.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    I wish they'd do raw totals, rather than percentages.

    Where can I get raw totals?
    London elects
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    The ballots verified so far

    Barnet & Camden 51%
    Croydon & Sutton 40%
    City and East 19%
    Enfield & Haringey 48%
    Greenwich & Lewisham 49%
    Merton & Wandsworth 61%
    South West 40%

    Rest 100% because counted yesterday
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Curtice says, if all the stars aligned the SNP might hit 65 seats, but they probably won't, and Alba is in the zone where they are doing damage to the SNP list rather than adding to a nationalist majority.

    Also, the Greens seem to be slightly underperforming the 10% in the polls:

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2203741/sir-john-curtice-snp-not-being-helped-by-alex-salmonds-alba-party-in-highlands-and-islands-regional-list/?utm_source=twitter
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    Glad to see all my efforts here for the LibDems has paid off :D
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757

    Owen Jones is always at his best when eviscerating the soft Left. His latest effort is a corker.

    Starmer’s pitch was always relational – he was more capable than his predecessor and opponent. His team believed that by acting like the grownups in the room, like the characters in Bugsy Malone, it would all fall into place. But they bet the house on competence – a dividing line incinerated by the NHS’s successful vaccine rollout – rather than a compelling alternative vision for the country. Having lost a seat that Corbyn outperformed him in twice, it’s Starmer who looks like the less than competent politician now, with no values to compensate. Instead of pointing out what he stood against, he should have decided what he stood for. The electorate doesn’t have a clue – and increasingly, it seems, neither does he.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/07/hartlepool-labour-lack-vision-corbyn-starmer

    "But they bet the house on competence – a dividing line incinerated by the NHS’s successful vaccine rollout"

    Hasnt Owen spent a year screeching that everything has been a disaster and it's the government's fault?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    AFU 284 😂
    I just looked up their website. Galloway appears to be using the RAF roundel. How did they let him get away with that?!
    Possibly because it's not a pukka Raff roundel with the radii in equal steps. I have a feeling it was like that to begin with. Edit: But I suspect it had to be changed - perhaps to avoid royalty payments. It doesn't correspond to any of the lower visiblity variants (with narrower white rings) as seen in WW2 etc either.
    Fair point. Might be a hard thing to trade mark, because other roundels exist, so it may be that as you say the RAF has to go super specific.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889
    Carnyx said:

    Fenman said:

    Once the Celtic scroungers have all gone the English will soon realise that Labour are completely unelectable and as nature abhors a vacumn, we will see a complete realignment of politics. An independent Scotland will no doubt go back to voting Labour but with nobody left to subsidise them....

    I wonder if, in the end, what the SNP represents is the world's biggest and best organised protection racket. It works along the lines of 'nice little union you have got there, be a shame if anything happened to it.'

    They work it so well. Notice how the SNP's share is always big enough to be a massive threat, but not quite big enough for the government in Westminster to say 'its a fair cop, its clear you want to leave, we have to give you independence now'

    Westminster is still in the game, just, always.

    The only reason why is the Scots want to know how big a jockgeld Johnson is prepared to pay. Looks like its going to be pretty big.
    That figure is a drect result of the Labour-LD gerrymkandering of the Scottish Parliament. Of course it is going to be borderline, it was designed that way.
    If by "gerrymandering" you mean making sure that minority views get some representation, then I think the answer must be yes. And a good thing too.

    Up until now, "gerrymandering" used to mean rigging the boundaries in order that some points of view might get even more representation than they deserve. A bad thing. And what you get to some extent with FPTP. This is the system preferred by most Conservatives and Labourites.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    We should perhaps have a moment of quiet mourning for those creatures we may never see again asking for our vote ...

    Mark Reckless, Neil Hamilton, Alex Salmond, George Galloway.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Tres said:

    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    Wrong. You only need 2.5% for the Mayoral deposit.
    Oh really? I thought it was 5%. Good news for the Lib Dems then!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,355
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    The Labour pivot to Ref2 wasn't about Starmer. It was forced by the membership and by a realpolitik imperative - to mitigate the risk of being eclipsed by the LDs if they were left to swim the "stop Brexit" lane alone.

    I take your general point that Labour will continue to struggle with Leavers if they don't embrace the future outside the EU. I think they'll be able to do that whilst advocating closer ties (so long as the dreaded free movement is not a part of it.)

    But Labour's core support are not Leavers and this will not be changing. They have to retain and expand their Remainer vote and at the same time win back enough Leavers to get competitive. A difficult task, whoever the leader is.
    At heart is Labour’s desperation (or determination) to hang onto its position as sole opposition party and hence reject pluralist politics.

    Strategically, they’d have been better to let the LibDems take what they could from the Tories in areas that Labour is unlikely ever to win, as Blair did.

    The biggest question for Labour over coming years is whether it will embrace pluralism, and co-operation with other centre left parties, or whether it will continue to search for a formula that will somehow deliver 45% of the vote or them alone (and even with that, a majority requires that other parties mop up another 15% of the vote)
    If it continues its search, it may find that long-held bastions such as Hull start to fall - to the LibDems. The council there is now Labour 30, LibDems 26.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    If Labour held leadership elections every 18 months as a matter of course, do you think Starmer would be favourite to win now? If the answer is no, why bother carrying on with him?

    Yes, because there’s no realistic alternative. One reason why Duncan Smith was toppled was that there were two clear cut candidates to replace him in Davis and Howard.

    The loss of talent under first Brown, later Miliband and then finally Corbyn really is haunting Labour.
    It's not that. There are alternatives. Plus you don't know if someone will be good as leader until they are the leader.

    The reason not to junk Starmer is because he hasn't yet had the chance to show what he can do in a scenario where Covid is not blotting out normal politics.

    This starts now. Keir has a Yeir.
    Covid will be blotting out normal politics this time next year.
    To some extent (as a global story) but not here.

    Plus, soon as it's only people in the third world suffering we'll lose interest.
    Unless that doesn't happen. No fat ladies have sung anywhere yet.

    Plus pms and lotos have to deal with what comes up. Not a good covid loto is a "wrong sort of snow" sort of claim. And let's not forget how often it's been said over the last year that covid does not play to Johnson's strengths either.
    Yes, I'm assuming no shockers from the virus. Hope I'm not tempting fate.

    On Starmer, I take your point, I really do, but all I'm saying is that he should - and will - get a year of (hopefully) post pandemic domestic politics to see if he can do some damage (to the Tories, I mean, not to Labour).

    If he fails in this, he's out.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    tlg86 said:

    Huw Edwards: It's not all bad for Labour, they've cleaned up in Liverpool.


    It didn’t look very clean, the last time I was there?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Curtice says, if all the stars aligned the SNP might hit 65 seats, but they probably won't, and Alba is in the zone where they are doing damage to the SNP list rather than adding to a nationalist majority.

    Also, the Greens seem to be slightly underperforming the 10% in the polls:

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2203741/sir-john-curtice-snp-not-being-helped-by-alex-salmonds-alba-party-in-highlands-and-islands-regional-list/?utm_source=twitter

    There is a polling problem for the Greens. I presume because their voters skew young and activist they appear too much in online panels. They underperformed polling in 2016 and then again at the Euros and now again this time out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.
    Only if you let extremists own the phrase. Its the same as abandoning the flag to fascists.

    If everyone says black lives matter then all it means is that black lives matter.
    As i said, BT partnered with Glitch. Its a lobby group who aim to change the laws around social media and setup by a politician.

    Sky eco campaign want change in world government policies.
    The Sky F1 channel is very different to the football channels then. Just wall-to-wall gambling ads in between the racing cars.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    kinabalu said:

    Owen Jones Rose
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    1h
    Labour figures are now saying that “tackling injustice and inequality” is the party’s mission. But that’s an abstraction to most voters: you need to talk about concrete things that matter to people’s lives - like housing, jobs, pay, services - and what you’ll do about them


    Blimey, Jones has said something that is a correct analysis.

    Labour should ban the words 'social justice', 'injustice', 'inequality' etc. from use by the party.

    I doubt many voters have a clue what the party means by them, but many will have a suspicion it involves loads of bonkers pc stuff and/or giving free money to people they think are undeserving.

    Labour should ban words like "inequality" and "injustice" because voters don't have a clue what they mean? I doubt voters really are that thick.

    But if they are, what do you suggest we talk to them about instead - their favourite shampoo?
    Owen Jones gave some non-shampoo examples. As I posted yesterday they should talk about pay and conditions - specifically the gig economy stuff, lack of security and so on.

    "You'll no longer be one pay cheque away from destitution and losing the roof over your head" is far more direct and promising than "we will tackle inequality wherever we see it & fight for social justice for all."

    And stop banging on about how it is terrible that some people are rich. My experience of voters is they don't really care and just want to know whether their own lives will steadily improve rather than go backwards and especially whether their kids will be alright. Most don't sit around in spasms of jealously and angst that there are rich people in London.

    As a related aside, Philip Gould always used to say one of Labour's problems was it never talked about people's aspirations.
    Another thing is that while a small number of slightly damaged people like to speak of their permanent victimhood, and make a lot of noise in social media about it, most people don't want or need to be treated as victims needing economic or social therapy, or political charity. Generally the Tory language about this is better than labour's.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    The Labour pivot to Ref2 wasn't about Starmer. It was forced by the membership and by a realpolitik imperative - to mitigate the risk of being eclipsed by the LDs if they were left to swim the "stop Brexit" lane alone.

    I take your general point that Labour will continue to struggle with Leavers if they don't embrace the future outside the EU. I think they'll be able to do that whilst advocating closer ties (so long as the dreaded free movement is not a part of it.)

    But Labour's core support are not Leavers and this will not be changing. They have to retain and expand their Remainer vote and at the same time win back enough Leavers to get competitive. A difficult task, whoever the leader is.
    At heart is Labour’s desperation (or determination) to hang onto its position as sole opposition party and hence reject pluralist politics.

    Strategically, they’d have been better to let the LibDems take what they could from the Tories in areas that Labour is unlikely ever to win, as Blair did.

    The biggest question for Labour over coming years is whether it will embrace pluralism, and co-operation with other centre left parties, or whether it will continue to search for a formula that will somehow deliver 45% of the vote or them alone (and even with that, a majority requires that other parties mop up another 15% of the vote)
    If it continues its search, it may find that long-held bastions such as Hull start to fall - to the LibDems. The council there is now Labour 30, LibDems 26.
    The Hull LibDems are a youthful, dynamic bunch, and they did take the council from Labour until the coalition hit them. It’s good to see them steadily coming back.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421

    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
    ?

    Norma Redfearn has been incumbent since 2013. I think that may be her lowest vote % but would have to check.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_North_Tyneside

    I remember the winner got caught up in a prosecution about child porn i think, but was cleared. Career ruined.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    On a potential Scottish referendum. will we soon be in a position that Johnston is arguing against but hoping that his hand is forced and Sturgeon is arguing for but hoping that it is blocked?

    It is absolutely in the best interests of the Greens and SNP for the referendum mandate to be blocked by Westminster. You'll get an immediate big spike in support for independence so that when it does happen it won't even be close.
    Like Abe Lincoln and Fort Sumter. Wait for the other side to fire the first shot, to rally your waverers.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,355
    Scott_xP said:

    Elections fact for today: In 2015 David Cameron’s Conservatives won the UK election with a manifesto commitment to hold a Brexit Referendum. They went onto deliver on that pledge. They did so having won 36.9% of the vote.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewWilson/status/1390953859078569984

    Cameron's majority gave him the power to do so.

    Sturgeon's gives her the power to moan about it some more.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    As referred to downthread, that Owen Jones article is very good indeed:

    “But Starmer’s team has decided there is nothing to be learned or salvaged from the Corbyn era, violating the promises made during Starmer’s election campaign. Rather than a new vision being crafted, the void is being filled by soundbites gleaned from focus groups, echoing and affirming the current political climate – one in which the party doesn’t thrive.”

    “Starmer’s team are [sic] on safari, knowing nothing about communities they didn’t grow up in, leading to cosplay, caricature and flag-waving, which screeches inauthenticity and nothing more. “
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    South Wales Central Regional Results

    Conservatives: 2 seats
    Plaid Cymru: 2 seats

    Wales have finished

    Labour 30 seats (+1)
    Conservatives 16 (+5)
    Plaid Cymru 13 (+1)
    Liberal Democrats 1 (=)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,451
    edited May 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.
    Only if you let extremists own the phrase. Its the same as abandoning the flag to fascists.

    If everyone says black lives matter then all it means is that black lives matter.
    As i said, BT partnered with Glitch. Its a lobby group who aim to change the laws around social media and setup by a politician.

    Sky eco campaign want change in world government policies.
    The Sky F1 channel is very different to the football channels then. Just wall-to-wall gambling ads in between the racing cars.
    The NFL worked this out quickly...plastering BLM everywhere is seen as political, the NBA did it and ratings went through the floor. NFL instead setup their own "inspire change", a far more positive inclusive campaign without all the defund the police stuff.

    The NFL also don't bombard you every other minute with it, crowbarring it into every replay or advert break.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited May 2021

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    If Labour held leadership elections every 18 months as a matter of course, do you think Starmer would be favourite to win now? If the answer is no, why bother carrying on with him?

    Yes, because there’s no realistic alternative. One reason why Duncan Smith was toppled was that there were two clear cut candidates to replace him in Davis and Howard.

    The loss of talent under first Brown, later Miliband and then finally Corbyn really is haunting Labour.
    It's not that. There are alternatives. Plus you don't know if someone will be good as leader until they are the leader.

    The reason not to junk Starmer is because he hasn't yet had the chance to show what he can do in a scenario where Covid is not blotting out normal politics.

    This starts now. Keir has a Yeir.
    Covid will be blotting out normal politics this time next year.
    To some extent (as a global story) but not here.

    Plus, soon as it's only people in the third world suffering we'll lose interest.
    I think the public are ready to move on from Covid - but are the government ? The media aren't as it's keeping them relevant.

    They may need to shill for Indy ref 2 to keep them in a job - they have already started.
    The government will seek to keep global Covid in the news (to emphasize our success), ditto Brexit in the sense of picking fights with the EU to keep Leavers tickled up. But there should be plenty of room for other issues. This is the big difference.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421



    North Tyneside Mayor

    Norma Redfearn (Lab, incumbent) 53.4%
    Steven Robinson (Con) 31.2%

    That has been Con before hasnt it? Thats a poor result.
    Con in 2002-2005 and in 2009-2013.

    But the Tynemouth part of the Borough is trending Labour (not gained until 1997 but stayed Labour in 2019 by a comfortable margin).
    thanks
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    South Wales Central Regional Results

    Conservatives: 2 seats
    Plaid Cymru: 2 seats

    Wales have finished

    Labour 30 seats (+1)
    Conservatives 16 (+5)
    Plaid Cymru 13 (+1)
    Liberal Democrats 1 (=)

    Did total number of Senadd seats increase?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Fenman said:

    Once the Celtic scroungers have all gone the English will soon realise that Labour are completely unelectable and as nature abhors a vacumn, we will see a complete realignment of politics. An independent Scotland will no doubt go back to voting Labour but with nobody left to subsidise them....

    I wonder if, in the end, what the SNP represents is the world's biggest and best organised protection racket. It works along the lines of 'nice little union you have got there, be a shame if anything happened to it.'

    They work it so well. Notice how the SNP's share is always big enough to be a massive threat, but not quite big enough for the government in Westminster to say 'its a fair cop, its clear you want to leave, we have to give you independence now'

    Westminster is still in the game, just, always.

    The only reason why is the Scots want to know how big a jockgeld Johnson is prepared to pay. Looks like its going to be pretty big.
    That figure is a drect result of the Labour-LD gerrymkandering of the Scottish Parliament. Of course it is going to be borderline, it was designed that way.
    If by "gerrymandering" you mean making sure that minority views get some representation, then I think the answer must be yes. And a good thing too.

    Up until now, "gerrymandering" used to mean rigging the boundaries in order that some points of view might get even more representation than they deserve. A bad thing. And what you get to some extent with FPTP. This is the system preferred by most Conservatives and Labourites.
    Fair enough, but the fact remains that the representation in the Scottish Pmt is a non-linear function of votes cast in a way quite deliberately designed to deny a majority its due representation. The mirror image of FPTP which has the opposite effect.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,355
    edited May 2021
    Alistair said:

    Curtice says, if all the stars aligned the SNP might hit 65 seats, but they probably won't, and Alba is in the zone where they are doing damage to the SNP list rather than adding to a nationalist majority.

    Also, the Greens seem to be slightly underperforming the 10% in the polls:

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2203741/sir-john-curtice-snp-not-being-helped-by-alex-salmonds-alba-party-in-highlands-and-islands-regional-list/?utm_source=twitter

    There is a polling problem for the Greens. I presume because their voters skew young and activist they appear too much in online panels. They underperformed polling in 2016 and then again at the Euros and now again this time out.
    Excellent assessment. But I'd add that their older voters are also highly visible and vocal too.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714

    South Wales Central Regional Results

    Conservatives: 2 seats
    Plaid Cymru: 2 seats

    Wales have finished

    Labour 30 seats (+1)
    Conservatives 16 (+5)
    Plaid Cymru 13 (+1)
    Liberal Democrats 1 (=)

    Did total number of Senadd seats increase?
    UKIP lost its 7 seats
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    Alistair said:

    The SNP Both votes SNP STRATEGY IS WORKING SAY SENIOR TORIES

    Aberdeenshire East (North East) List Vote:

    Con ~ 15112 (36.8%, +6.1)
    SNP ~ 14873 (36.2%, -7.4)
    Lab ~ 3092 (7.5%, +1.1)
    Lib Dem ~ 3007 (7.3%, -4.4)
    Grn ~ 2326 (5.7%, +1.6)
    Alba ~ 1235 (3%, +3)
    AFU ~ 284 (0.7%, +0.7)
    Others ~ 1143 (2.8%, -0.8)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot

    What are they smoking?

    Glad to see all my efforts here for the LibDems has paid off :D
    Mrs RP suggests people got fed up of so many LD leaflets being delivered and turned against us. Thanks luv :D
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Fishing said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    Here's the thing though.

    There are an awful lot of people who are of the view that the UK is making a mistake here. Apart from at the height of the vaccine wars, "2016 was the wrong decision" outpolls "2016 was the right decision". I've posted this link before, but it's important;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    If Labour gets on board as a Brexit cheerleader, they ship lots of votes- mostly younger, urban voters.

    I don't know what the answer is, but getting on board with Brexit isn't it.
    Labour are doomed to opposition for the next 2 or 3 cycles in that case. The Tory voter coalition is built on the back of brexit and traditional culture, I don't see how that can be broken apart by the current Labour party. In the same way Dave shat on the blue rinse brigade and turnip taliban to win in 2010 and 2015 Starmer needs to do the same with his remoaners and ultra woke types. They have nowhere else to go if they want to win.
    Cameron didn't win in 2010 because he moved to the centre. Well, he didn't really win at all. 2010 was an indecisive tie in his favour. But insofar as he did win, it was because the Labour Government screwed up badly and unmistakably on the economy in a way that affected tens of millions of people. That's what Labour need now, far more than a better leader.
    Also G. Brown was nowhere near as popular/competent as the media kept telling everyone he was.
    The hype was Brown had a towering intellect. Actually he was th8ck as f8ck. His UK gold sale alone cost the country billions.
    A comment proving beyond a doubt that the epithet belongs to the author.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    South Wales Central Regional Results

    Conservatives: 2 seats
    Plaid Cymru: 2 seats

    Wales have finished

    Labour 30 seats (+1)
    Conservatives 16 (+5)
    Plaid Cymru 13 (+1)
    Liberal Democrats 1 (=)

    Did total number of Senadd seats increase?
    UKIP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Huw Edwards: It's not all bad for Labour, they've cleaned up in Liverpool.


    It didn’t look very clean, the last time I was there?
    They’ve cleaned up by replacing Joe Anderson with Jo Anderson.
  • Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    BLM is no apolitical though.
    It ought to be. If everyone says it then it becomes meaningless, other than the bit everyone agrees to.

    It's only political if you let one group own the phrase.
    The group who own the phrase are a registered political party. If you say BLM you are saying a very political thing and you are endorsing a set of ideas. If you say blm, not so.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    Sandpit said:

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Their campaigns want change in government policy in social media, the environment, etc.
    Only if you let extremists own the phrase. Its the same as abandoning the flag to fascists.

    If everyone says black lives matter then all it means is that black lives matter.
    As i said, BT partnered with Glitch. Its a lobby group who aim to change the laws around social media and setup by a politician.

    Sky eco campaign want change in world government policies.
    The Sky F1 channel is very different to the football channels then. Just wall-to-wall gambling ads in between the racing cars.
    The NFL worked this out quickly...plastering BLM everywhere is seen as political, the NBA did it and ratings went through the floor. NFL instead setup their own "inspire change", a far more positive inclusive campaign without all the defund the police stuff.

    The NFL also don't bombard you every other minute with it, crowbarring it into every replay or advert break.
    My favourite bit is when Jordan Henderson says they're fighting against inequality.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,355


    We should perhaps have a moment of quiet mourning for those creatures we may never see again asking for our vote ...

    Mark Reckless, Neil Hamilton, Alex Salmond, George Galloway.

    ...............

    And, swiftly moving on......
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,982
    Alistair said:

    A mini joker in the pack

    Paul Middleton
    @ProfPMiddleton
    If @theSNP
    end up on 64 seats, I'm sure they'll allow another party to take Presiding Officer. That would mean a 64-64 Parliament!
    #SP2021 #SP21 #indyref2

    Not sure they want to give up that control.

    The current Presiding Officer at dissolution was from Labour,
    Patrick Harvie in the Cabinet and a green MSP as presiding officer? That would be an epic way to troll the opposition to Nicola’s hate crime and gender recognition legislation.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421
    Fishing said:

    ping said:

    kinabalu said:

    Owen Jones Rose
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    1h
    Labour figures are now saying that “tackling injustice and inequality” is the party’s mission. But that’s an abstraction to most voters: you need to talk about concrete things that matter to people’s lives - like housing, jobs, pay, services - and what you’ll do about them


    Blimey, Jones has said something that is a correct analysis.

    Labour should ban the words 'social justice', 'injustice', 'inequality' etc. from use by the party.

    I doubt many voters have a clue what the party means by them, but many will have a suspicion it involves loads of bonkers pc stuff and/or giving free money to people they think are undeserving.

    Labour should ban words like "inequality" and "injustice" because voters don't have a clue what they mean? I doubt voters really are that thick.

    But if they are, what do you suggest we talk to them about instead - their favourite shampoo?
    Owen Jones gave some non-shampoo examples. As I posted yesterday they should talk about pay and conditions - specifically the gig economy stuff, lack of security and so on.

    "You'll no longer be one pay cheque away from destitution and losing the roof over your head" is far more direct and promising than "we will tackle inequality wherever we see it & fight for social justice for all."

    And stop banging on about how it is terrible that some people are rich. My experience of voters is they don't really care and just want to know whether their own lives will steadily improve rather than go backwards and especially whether their kids will be alright. Most don't sit around in spasms of jealously and angst that there are rich people in London.

    As a related aside, Philip Gould always used to say one of Labour's problems was it never talked about people's aspirations.
    The problem is Labour instinct has been gig economy bad, ban ZHC, ban Uber etc....when we know lots of people actually like the job, its allows them to earn around family commitments or as a side hustle.
    Are you saying they wouldn’t like to be paid more and have better conditions of employment?
    No, not saying that.
    I know a couple of workers in the gig economy, and what they want most, rather than sick pay or whatever, is more gigs. But giving them benefits would result in higher prices, so get them less work - either their employers would raise their prices to customers, or exit the market completely.

    (Also not a few of them are working illegally so wouldn't get benefits anyway, but that's another story...)
    The entire business model collapses. Uber without the gig economy is just a local taxi firm with an app and a lot of investors losing money.
  • https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1391015639121281030

    It's like I've said many times before, it is time for Labour to discover a new heartland.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Alistair said:

    Curtice says, if all the stars aligned the SNP might hit 65 seats, but they probably won't, and Alba is in the zone where they are doing damage to the SNP list rather than adding to a nationalist majority.

    Also, the Greens seem to be slightly underperforming the 10% in the polls:

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/2203741/sir-john-curtice-snp-not-being-helped-by-alex-salmonds-alba-party-in-highlands-and-islands-regional-list/?utm_source=twitter

    There is a polling problem for the Greens. I presume because their voters skew young and activist they appear too much in online panels. They underperformed polling in 2016 and then again at the Euros and now again this time out.
    Perhaps activist skew in particular is problematic re: online panel polling?

    And Peter Piper ate a peck of pickled peppers!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    Labour +1 Conservatives +5!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    South Wales Central Regional Results

    Conservatives: 2 seats
    Plaid Cymru: 2 seats

    Wales have finished

    Labour 30 seats (+1)
    Conservatives 16 (+5)
    Plaid Cymru 13 (+1)
    Liberal Democrats 1 (=)

    Attention now turns to the election of the Llywydd and Dirprwy Lywydd.

    I assume Elin Jones will get the gig if she stands again.

    With Ann Jones retiring, Labour will presumably try and get a Tory elected if they can to achieve a majority.

    However, even if legal (and I’ve got a feeling the rule is, one from Govt and one from Oppo) the Tories would be mad to play that game.

    Therefore, if Labour want a majority they will have to work with Plaid, or Jane Dodds.

    So Huw Irranca Davies was rather foolish to rule that out this morning. Touch of hubris there.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172


    We should perhaps have a moment of quiet mourning for those creatures we may never see again asking for our vote ...

    Mark Reckless, Neil Hamilton, Alex Salmond, George Galloway.

    ...............

    And, swiftly moving on......
    I was only envisaging a nanosecond of mourning ...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    .

    Is it just me or is the constant political with a same p on Sky Sports and BT Sports getting incredibly irriating. I just want to watch the footy, but every advert break is bombarded by social media abuse, BLM, eco campaigns and no escape while watching the game as they flash up BLM banner next to the score.

    Sky is now owned by Democrat shilling ComCast - not Rupert Murdoch.

    I note the Kentucky Derby beat the Oscars for viewing figures in the US this year - draw your own conclusions.
    Ever heard of the pause button and FF....
    But sodding BT and Sky have baked this into the actual match now...Kane goes through, he scores, lets go to the replay brought to you by our campaign against online hate speech....its like the worst of US sports coverage with constant sponsorship stuff, but rather than this brought to you in association with pepsi, its their political campaign.
    Not hating people really ought to be apolitical. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    BLM is no apolitical though.
    It ought to be. If everyone says it then it becomes meaningless, other than the bit everyone agrees to.

    It's only political if you let one group own the phrase.
    The group who own the phrase are a registered political party. If you say BLM you are saying a very political thing and you are endorsing a set of ideas. If you say blm, not so.
    When David Cameron said Vote Blue, Go Green was he endorsing Green Party Marxist tax policies? Of course not!

    How many votes did this supposed BLM Party get on Thursday? How many seats did they win? Even easier than with the Greens for anyone not racist and not Marxist to co-opt the words but without any extraneous bullshit.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?

    His lead in Brimingham - by far his best area is down by 6000 compared to last time. The other areas are all to declare.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited May 2021
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    If Labour held leadership elections every 18 months as a matter of course, do you think Starmer would be favourite to win now? If the answer is no, why bother carrying on with him?

    Yes, because there’s no realistic alternative. One reason why Duncan Smith was toppled was that there were two clear cut candidates to replace him in Davis and Howard.

    The loss of talent under first Brown, later Miliband and then finally Corbyn really is haunting Labour.
    It's not that. There are alternatives. Plus you don't know if someone will be good as leader until they are the leader.

    The reason not to junk Starmer is because he hasn't yet had the chance to show what he can do in a scenario where Covid is not blotting out normal politics.

    This starts now. Keir has a Yeir.
    What happens after a year should things not improve and he doesn't resign? The LP is not good as dispensing with its leaders.
    I think if things look as bleak for Labour this time next year he will resign. He'll have no choice.
    Corbyn was in a far bleaker situation in 2016-17 and didn’t resign.

    And, to Labour’s later great misfortune, staged at least a partial recovery.
    A recovery that included removing the Con majority in a GE in which he won the biggest Labour share of the English vote since 1997.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Huw Edwards: It's not all bad for Labour, they've cleaned up in Liverpool.


    It didn’t look very clean, the last time I was there?
    They’ve cleaned up by replacing Joe Anderson with Jo Anderson.
    A bit of tippex, and they can keep the nameplates and business cards.

    The sort of frugal leadership the country needs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154


    We should perhaps have a moment of quiet mourning for those creatures we may never see again asking for our vote ...

    Mark Reckless, Neil Hamilton, Alex Salmond, George Galloway.

    ...............

    And, swiftly moving on......
    I was only envisaging a nanosecond of mourning ...
    I’ve got a really bad cold, I don’t want to spend even a nanosecond thinking of them. Too likely to make me throw up or asphyxiate from laughter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    If Labour held leadership elections every 18 months as a matter of course, do you think Starmer would be favourite to win now? If the answer is no, why bother carrying on with him?

    Yes, because there’s no realistic alternative. One reason why Duncan Smith was toppled was that there were two clear cut candidates to replace him in Davis and Howard.

    The loss of talent under first Brown, later Miliband and then finally Corbyn really is haunting Labour.
    It's not that. There are alternatives. Plus you don't know if someone will be good as leader until they are the leader.

    The reason not to junk Starmer is because he hasn't yet had the chance to show what he can do in a scenario where Covid is not blotting out normal politics.

    This starts now. Keir has a Yeir.
    What happens after a year should things not improve and he doesn't resign? The LP is not good as dispensing with its leaders.
    I think if things look as bleak for Labour this time next year he will resign. He'll have no choice.
    Corbyn was in a far bleaker situation in 2016-17 and didn’t resign.

    And, to Labour’s later great misfortune, staged at least a partial recovery.
    A recovery that included removing the Con majority in a GE in which he won the biggest Labour share of the English vote since 1997.
    And later led to their worst result for 74 years.
  • felix said:

    Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?

    His lead in Brimingham - by far his best area is down by 6000 compared to last time. The other areas are all to declare.
    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1391017065293746179
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    felix said:

    Labour +1 Conservatives +5!
    To be fair, making any gains at all is a fantastic result for Labour...
  • https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1391016993474715650

    The vaccine boost in full swing, so how much can we conclude the 6 point Tory lead is because of that? I am going to conclude a lot
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    algarkirk said:

    MrEd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    "I'm really pleased that, whatever outcome the next Prime Minister puts before us, whether that's a deal of some sort or no deal, we've agreed that it must be subject to another referendum, and in that referendum Remain must be an option, and Labour will be campaigning for Remain.

    That's a really important point of principle" - Sir Keir Starmer 2019

    That's why he will never be PM - nearly two thirds of constituencies voted Leave
    I never thought I would type these words but I agree with @bigjohnowls and @TheJezziah, getting rid of Corbyn was the worst thing for Labour, Two thoughts:

    1. Labour didn't get hammered in 2019 because of Corbyn but because Corbyn was NOT Corbyn i.e. he was constantly being told by SKS and others that Labour needed to do everything it could do to hang on the Labour vote. The Corbyn of 2017 was successful because he had a lot to offer a significant chunk of the Labour base with his policies and, crucially, he recognised that Labour needed to recognise the Brexit vote. It was only when the likes of SKS were telling him how he needed to cut and turn and play that he lost a lot of the Brexit-supporting WWC base. Starmer was a fucking disaster for Labour's 2019 campaign in the same way as he is as leader.

    2. It's time for Labour to throw the middle class woke brigade overboard and concentrate on a strategy that builds from its traditional WWC base whilst keeping the Black / Bangladeshi / Pakistani vote. Crucially, keeping the latter minimises seat loss risk in the inner-city seats. If the wokeists bugger off from Labour to the Greens in Hackney or Southwark, yes, Labour's majority may get cut from 30K-40K to 10K-15K but so what? They are still safe seats and Labour would benefit from gaining seats in its traditional areas.
    Corbyn came 700,000 votes behind in 2017 following the worst Tory campaign ever. He would have been slaughtered in 2019 come whatever as long as Boris was the Tory leader. He would have done worse in both elections if his younger woke voters knew he was a proper lifelong Brexiteer. And the Brexit voting WWC would not turn out in sufficient numbers for a unilateralist.

    A Labour which was WWC + BAME would be interesting. Where would it stand on gay marriage and a few other matters?

    It would further splinter the non Tory vote - a fact which is already hugely to Tory advantage. The woke would split all over the place.

    Labour should look for a merger - perhaps with the Greens. Rebrand and start again.
    They can fuck off. Labour are a party of reactionary capital.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited May 2021

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    If Labour held leadership elections every 18 months as a matter of course, do you think Starmer would be favourite to win now? If the answer is no, why bother carrying on with him?

    Yes, because there’s no realistic alternative. One reason why Duncan Smith was toppled was that there were two clear cut candidates to replace him in Davis and Howard.

    The loss of talent under first Brown, later Miliband and then finally Corbyn really is haunting Labour.
    It's not that. There are alternatives. Plus you don't know if someone will be good as leader until they are the leader.

    The reason not to junk Starmer is because he hasn't yet had the chance to show what he can do in a scenario where Covid is not blotting out normal politics.

    This starts now. Keir has a Yeir.
    But what IS his big Ideir?
    Patience. You'll find out in a yeir. :smile:
    Agree. And if you want to find out his big ideir earlier, go and have a beer with Keir (up north where it's not dear).
    Ok. That's clear!

    (and that's also enough - ed)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Dura_Ace said:

    algarkirk said:

    MrEd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    "I'm really pleased that, whatever outcome the next Prime Minister puts before us, whether that's a deal of some sort or no deal, we've agreed that it must be subject to another referendum, and in that referendum Remain must be an option, and Labour will be campaigning for Remain.

    That's a really important point of principle" - Sir Keir Starmer 2019

    That's why he will never be PM - nearly two thirds of constituencies voted Leave
    I never thought I would type these words but I agree with @bigjohnowls and @TheJezziah, getting rid of Corbyn was the worst thing for Labour, Two thoughts:

    1. Labour didn't get hammered in 2019 because of Corbyn but because Corbyn was NOT Corbyn i.e. he was constantly being told by SKS and others that Labour needed to do everything it could do to hang on the Labour vote. The Corbyn of 2017 was successful because he had a lot to offer a significant chunk of the Labour base with his policies and, crucially, he recognised that Labour needed to recognise the Brexit vote. It was only when the likes of SKS were telling him how he needed to cut and turn and play that he lost a lot of the Brexit-supporting WWC base. Starmer was a fucking disaster for Labour's 2019 campaign in the same way as he is as leader.

    2. It's time for Labour to throw the middle class woke brigade overboard and concentrate on a strategy that builds from its traditional WWC base whilst keeping the Black / Bangladeshi / Pakistani vote. Crucially, keeping the latter minimises seat loss risk in the inner-city seats. If the wokeists bugger off from Labour to the Greens in Hackney or Southwark, yes, Labour's majority may get cut from 30K-40K to 10K-15K but so what? They are still safe seats and Labour would benefit from gaining seats in its traditional areas.
    Corbyn came 700,000 votes behind in 2017 following the worst Tory campaign ever. He would have been slaughtered in 2019 come whatever as long as Boris was the Tory leader. He would have done worse in both elections if his younger woke voters knew he was a proper lifelong Brexiteer. And the Brexit voting WWC would not turn out in sufficient numbers for a unilateralist.

    A Labour which was WWC + BAME would be interesting. Where would it stand on gay marriage and a few other matters?

    It would further splinter the non Tory vote - a fact which is already hugely to Tory advantage. The woke would split all over the place.

    Labour should look for a merger - perhaps with the Greens. Rebrand and start again.
    They can fuck off. Labour are a party of reactionary capital.
    Shurely, ‘reactionaries in the capital?’
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?

    Birmingham only results.

    Street will win.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Congratulations to JohnO for withstanding the un-Tory tide in Surrey.

    Good to see an Irishman getting some preferment!

    BTW could not help noticing that from his pix JohnO is a Man of Surrey withOUT the fringe on top!

    (FYI yours truly is riding in the same buggy.)

    The Surrey With The Fringe On Top
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?

    I would expect Labour candidate to win Birmingham, Sandwell, Wolverhampton and Coventry comfortably and to lose Dudley, Walsall and Solihull comfortably. Wolverhampton and Dudley are probably going to be the closest.

    Street has polled ca. 10k more in Birmingham than he did in 2017.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    felix said:

    Labour +1 Conservatives +5!
    To be fair, making any gains at all is a fantastic result for Labour...
    Given that less than a month ago 6-7 losses seemed a reasonable prediction, it certainly is.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    I missed that both Tories and Labour are losing seats in Scotland
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,355

    Congratulations to JohnO for withstanding the un-Tory tide in Surrey.

    Good to see an Irishman getting some preferment!

    BTW could not help noticing that from his pix JohnO is a Man of Surrey withOUT the fringe on top!

    (FYI yours truly is riding in the same buggy.)

    The Surrey With The Fringe On Top
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE

    Let's just be grateful no-one is reaching the dead-wood stage......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    London is looking closer than expected, but only Lab, Con and Green are going to keep their hefty deposits. £170k being a big chunk of the cost of running the election.

    https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/live-results/live-mayoral-results

    80% ish of first ballots counted

    Khan (Lab) 40
    Bailey (Con) 36
    Berry (Grn) 8
    Porritt (LD) 4
    Omilana, Fox 2
    Rose, Binface, Corbyn and a few others 1

    I wish they'd do raw totals, rather than percentages.

    Where can I get raw totals?
    London elects
    That's where I've been looking. I can only see percentages.

    Do you have a link to vote tallies?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    Maybe Liam Byrne was onto something when he said the rumours about him losing were bollocks?

    His lead in Brimingham - by far his best area is down by 6000 compared to last time. The other areas are all to declare.
    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1391017065293746179
    That is my point - Birmingham is part of the WM mayoral election - and by far Labour's strongest part. I'm therefore unclear what point you were trying to make.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    SNP Hold the one Tory target seat

    Perthshire South & Kinross-shire (Mid & Fife) Constituency Vote:

    SNP ~ 20126 (45.7%, +3.3)
    Conservative ~ 18178 (41.2%, +2.8)
    Labour ~ 2943 (6.7%, -2.7)
    Lib Dem ~ 2823 (6.4%, -1.9)

    #SP21 #BBS21 http://ballotbox.scot
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    MrEd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:
    Trivial to identify Labour's problems as he does. Coming up with plausible, workable, pragmatic solutions to them would be far more interesting, and challenging.
    In simple terms Con are now Leave and Lab are now Remain - the leaders of the parties were the main faces of Leave and the ‘Peoples Vote’ after all. Hartlepool seems to indicate that Leavers who were formerly Lab voters don’t mind voting Tory now, & Labour are doing well in southern Remain areas.

    I guess the big problem for Labour, if the it is true that voters are staying with their Brexit vote rather than their traditional party, is that Leave won roughly 64% of parliamentary constituencies according to Hanretty, so the Tories have an inbuilt advantage while that stays relevant.

    It’s probably true to say it was Starmer’s Brexit policy, a second referendum in which Labour would campaign for Remain, that lost the Red Wall rather than anti Corbyn sentiment, now we know for sure that Leave areas don’t vote for Sir Keir’s Corbyn-less Labour
    Whilst there is still a strong leave identity, there really isnt a strong remain one. Brexit is done. All I ask is the government gets credit/blame for how it turns out and doesnt seek to blame it on others. Remain is a terrible place for Labour to build from compared to say workers, or even current under 50s.
    This is at the heart of the problem imo. The Leave identity is bigger AND stronger AND more unified than Remain. The Tories own it and until this changes will be a bugger to remove from power under FPTP.
    That's only the case so long as people care about the Leave identity and not some other Big Idea that they care about more.

    However Keir is Idea-free.
    Yes, the crumbling of the Leave identity (or at least the Con ownership of it) is a pre-requisite for the next GE being competitive. I'm hopeful. Either Starmer will step up post pandemic or he'll be replaced in summer next year by someone who can.
    The leave identity won't crumble though, Labour needs to get on board with being a brexit cheerleader. It needs to start welcoming independent trade deals and make whatever number of pledges necessary to not reopen the existing brexit deal.

    Labour simply isn't trusted not to sell out brexit as soon as they get power in tandem with the SNP. I know more leave voters than you and all of them suspect that Starmer will sign us up to the single market and customs union within a year of becoming PM. He was remainer and mischief maker in chief from 2016-2020 literally until the day we left the EU. He was the guy who pivoted Labour from Corbyn's "deliver a Labour brexit" idea to proposing a second referendum in 2019. Leave voters have long memories and Labour is tainted from the 2016-2019 brexit blocking shenanigans instigated by their current leader.
    "I'm really pleased that, whatever outcome the next Prime Minister puts before us, whether that's a deal of some sort or no deal, we've agreed that it must be subject to another referendum, and in that referendum Remain must be an option, and Labour will be campaigning for Remain.

    That's a really important point of principle" - Sir Keir Starmer 2019

    That's why he will never be PM - nearly two thirds of constituencies voted Leave
    I never thought I would type these words but I agree with @bigjohnowls and @TheJezziah, getting rid of Corbyn was the worst thing for Labour, Two thoughts:

    1. Labour didn't get hammered in 2019 because of Corbyn but because Corbyn was NOT Corbyn i.e. he was constantly being told by SKS and others that Labour needed to do everything it could do to hang on the Labour vote. The Corbyn of 2017 was successful because he had a lot to offer a significant chunk of the Labour base with his policies and, crucially, he recognised that Labour needed to recognise the Brexit vote. It was only when the likes of SKS were telling him how he needed to cut and turn and play that he lost a lot of the Brexit-supporting WWC base. Starmer was a fucking disaster for Labour's 2019 campaign in the same way as he is as leader.

    2. It's time for Labour to throw the middle class woke brigade overboard and concentrate on a strategy that builds from its traditional WWC base whilst keeping the Black / Bangladeshi / Pakistani vote. Crucially, keeping the latter minimises seat loss risk in the inner-city seats. If the wokeists bugger off from Labour to the Greens in Hackney or Southwark, yes, Labour's majority may get cut from 30K-40K to 10K-15K but so what? They are still safe seats and Labour would benefit from gaining seats in its traditional areas.
    1 is good. 2 is baloney.
This discussion has been closed.