Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
How fascinating that Liar is prepared to draw the line for the interests of peons when it comes to football, but backs money over doctors, cab drivers, nurses, firemen etc etc etc at every other opportunity.
He's such a hypocrite. And its lapped up by the most blinkered on here.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
But that is the problem. You're dismissing a huge issue with the way it is structured.
Ah, a voice of sanity.
What is the huge issue?
if this had been created 10 years ago the clubs involved would have been different. If this had been done 20 years ago the clubs would have been different
And so one.
The fact is the plan is to give the currently big clubs a permanent advantage while relegating everyone else to secondary (this seasons guest stars) status.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
The Pope still keeping his counsel?
He could excommunicate some of the more Catholic players? Messi?
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
That's not the way football works. Football works by clubs earning the spot in the elite competitions on the field. The Champions League would be a minor League like Europa but could be with clubs that won or finished near the top of the Premier League, while the "Super League" would be having clubs that could have finished in the bottom half of the Premier League.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
have a look at where these clubs are based, The cities of London, Manchester and Liverpool.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
There may possibly be a competition called the Champions League, but it won't be the same. Hugely less money, and no 'top' clubs, it would be in a worse position than the current Europa League, and just see the prestige that tournament has.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
Please. Stop. For your own sake
Mate why did you decide that "minge-head" was more appropriate than "mong" and edit your post accordingly?
"Mate"??
lol
Answer the question. Sunshine.
Virgil Malloy: Watch it, bud. Turk Malloy: Who you calling bud, pal? Virgil Malloy: Who you calling pal, friend? Turk Malloy: Who you calling friend, jackass?! Virgil Malloy: Don't call me a jackass. Turk Malloy: I just did call you a jackass.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
That is manifest bullsh8t for start. The snap poll said 68% of fans were strongly against. What shocked me was how low a number that was given all the wailing for the Gary Neville's of this world.
The breakaway clubs haven;t even started their PR campaign for hearts and minds yet.
Their PR campaign is headed by the same genius that was responsible for May's sensible old age care policy becoming May's 'we're going to steal your inheritance and bankrupt your parents' Dementia Tax.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
have a look at where these clubs are based, The cities of London, Manchester and Liverpool.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
have a look at where these clubs are based, The cities of London, Manchester and Liverpool.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
The Pope still keeping his counsel?
He could excommunicate some of the more Catholic players? Messi?
He’s a San Lorenzo fan. Wouldn’t surprise me to see them included to appease him.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
"A Redbridge Conservative councillor has left the party due to his frustration with the Government’s handling of coronavirus.
Cllr Robin Turbefield (Bridge) says he is “not a Covid-denier or anti-vaxxer” but feels the Government “approached the situation in the wrong way” by locking the country down.
After more than a decade as a Conservative councillor, he has now joined the former Brexit Party, renamed Reform UK earlier this year."
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
It locks the "big 6" into a higher revenue stream, not based upon performance or sporting success, for perpetuity.
It's the complete antithesis of what English football is about.
20 years ago Newcastle United were higher in the "money league" than Barcelona, Chelsea, Manchester City, etc. No club has a right to cement that position outside of sporting success.
Huh? What on earth are you talking about? Was competition law part of your (brilliantly-passed) legal training?
They can do whatever they want.
As can a Government that likes populist policies and has a 80+ seat majority.
It won't take much to kill this off and it does wonders for the British Isle 2032 World Cup campaign.
That is true. A country which has welcomed a removal of their civil liberties to such an extent will have no problem with some administrative measures applied to the footie.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
You've never been to a match. You've never watched a game. You have no idea whereof you speak. Your contributions are therefore worthless, on this issue, so just desist. Ta
LOL x 3 you really have no idea. Otherwise you'd tell me.
Richard Dawkins has been cancelled by the American Humanist Association for not having the correct views on gender and race.
"@americnhumanist Today the American Humanist Association Board voted to withdraw, effective immediately, the 1996 Humanist of the Year award it bestowed on Richard Dawkins."
What none of these stories details what Professor Dawkins has done to "deserve" this censure. Does anyone know? Can they cite examples?
A common problem with such stories. Sometimes it can be justified but you have no way of knowing from the reporting.
100%.
See also: Person sacked/cancelled for saying something on Twitter (yet failing to cite what that person actually said on Twitter).
As you say, a very common problem – I'm not at all a fan of what appears to be willing censorship. The BBC is a prime culprit of this. Let readers make up their own minds.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You didn't ask me, but I want to chip in succinctly. No problem with a super league to replace the champions league (already a misnomer, as often champions don't win it.) The issue is permanent membership for the founding fathers - just ridiculous. When the Premier League/Premiership formed, promotion and relegation were retained. It would be perfectly possible for a 20 teach super league to do similar.
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
Steady on now...
But you're right. Football is very much at the heart and soul of our nation. Like the Queen, it's a constant thing there. This is an attack on our very fabric of society, and just for grubby money.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
We're not that obscure sadly, but Reading are my club. I'm currently hoping that we find a way up into the PL for next season, so we can be the oldest club in the Prem to celebrate our 150th anniversary.
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
And the danger is if he doesn't.....or it requires the sort of laws Corbyn would love and wider business hate to stop it.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
On topic, the desultory engagement of a couple of Scotch experts while everyone else is fulminating over the Fitba is surely a sign o’ the times. Everything that can be said has been said, all the weary tropes have been exhausted, the people irrelevant to the process remain irrelevant and still no one is capable of making a positive case for the Union (or not without reflexive and associated threats anyway). That the most interesting thing about a national election is what effect one indy supporting party will have upon another indy supporting party says it all. Outside a few (a very few) living rooms and lodge halls, Unionism is dead as an ideology and a growing and evolving political force.
Nice to see that ‘don yer tin hats & beware frothing Nats’ followed by striking absence of same is still a fine old PB meme though.
Me, frothing? Perish the thought.
But it is also very interesting outside PB (and with a few honourable instances within PB, who aren't even Scots so far as I know, though one is now a new Scot) that it's the Unionist commentators now who are saying that saying No to Indyref 2 is just not on. The political conversation is now turning to how to do 1978-type wrecking amendments (i.e. gerrymandering, getting the dead to vote No, etc.). Which also says a lot about Unionism's faith in itself.
The betting is saying that Sindy2 in 22 is becoming significantly more likely.
Trading in the 3s now not the 5s as it had been.
It isn't, there will never be an authorised indyref2 as long as we continue to have a Tory majority government in the UK.
As yesterday's Mori poll confirmed only a PM Starmer will allow an indyref2, with over 60% of Tory voters backing Boris' position and opposing allowing an indyref2 even if the SNP win a Holyrood majority even if a majority of Labour and LD voters backed allowing an indyref2 in such circumstances.
You are a broken record
He is also wholly off-message. The ScotsCon field signs up here implore people to vote Tory "and stop Indyref2". The Tories know that a majority for independence means a new referendum. Perhaps the Essicks Massiv aint't been sent the memo innit.
No, perfectly on message.
Vote SCons to get a Unionist majority and stop the SNP holding an advisory referendum.
If they win a Nationalist majority Sturgeon will hold an advisory referendum which Boris will ignore the result of and Unionists will boycott but SCon gains from the SNP avoids the hassle
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
That's not the way football works. Football works by clubs earning the spot in the elite competitions on the field. The Champions League would be a minor League like Europa but could be with clubs that won or finished near the top of the Premier League, while the "Super League" would be having clubs that could have finished in the bottom half of the Premier League.
That's not football.
Then people won't pay for the "Super League". Or is anyone forcing people to watch bad football?
I agree that Scottish Independence is like Brexit - in the sense they are both perfectly, 100% viable if that is what the voters choose.
It isn't a "myth" that the UK can make up any disruption that Brexit causes with Europe with trade with the rest of the world. Indeed that's already the case now.
While its certainly true that Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids, since Brexit is not the bad thing that Nabavi has convinced himself it is, that's not a problem for Scotland.
Yes Scotland is more tightly integrated with the UK today. That is true. Yes, Scottish Independence will cause more disruption than Brexit did, that is also true. But the Scots have not just more to lose but more to gain in controlling their own destiny.
The UK could replace any disruption with the EU either domestically or with the approximately 7.2 billion people around the globe who aren't in the EU. Scotland can replace any disruption with the rest of the UK either domestically, or with the same 7.2 billion, or with the 440 million people of the EU.
Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids yes: More risk, but also more opportunities.
Don't be blinded to the opportunities of both.
This is simply wrong. Scotland's trade with England is much larger as a share of its GDP than the UK's trade with the EU-27 - about three times larger, according to some estimates. It is therefore much more challenging for Scotland to replace its loss of trade with England with trade with the rest of the world than it was for the UK since last year (and that is difficult enough). It is likely to be impossible for decades and perhaps ever.
What are the great economic opportunities that Scotland has from controlling its own destiny? I simply don't see them. They will survive, of course, but economically independence is likely to be an exercise in damage mitigation rather than a climb to prosperity. There might be some gain from managing their macroeconomic policy in their own interests, but they would deprive themselves of this by joining the EU.
Which brings us neatly to the currency question. Scotland certainly could not replace even a small fraction of UK trade with EU trade without joining the EU (thereby sacrifcing any RoW gains), and that means joining the Euro. Scotland is part of an optimal currency area with the rest of the UK, but I don't think anyone has ever said it even comes close to being one with the euro area. It would have to meet the economically illiterate convergence criteria, starting from a disastrous fiscal position. Then it would be a deficit country in a system rigged to favour (German) creditors. How did that work out for Greece and Spain?
The SNP usually counter arguments based on undergraduate level economics like the above with vague assertions about Ireland or Denmark. But that simply doesn't make sense, because those countries are much more productive than Scotland, but the SNP's policies (a larger state, more intervention in markets) would actually make Scotland much less productive than now, rather than more, and the SNP has no favourable supply side policies to counterbalance those.
So while the economic arguments may be similar between Brexit and Scexit, the balance of arguments is totally different. Choosing to leave the UK really will be Scotland's heart beating its head.
Utter bollox , Philip is perfectly correct. Scotland despite it's vast natural resources is at bottom of pile of small nations. All are far more prosperous with less resources, we cannot do any worse than we are doing shackled as a colony of England.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
That's not the way football works. Football works by clubs earning the spot in the elite competitions on the field. The Champions League would be a minor League like Europa but could be with clubs that won or finished near the top of the Premier League, while the "Super League" would be having clubs that could have finished in the bottom half of the Premier League.
That's not football.
Then people won't pay for the "Super League". Or is anyone forcing people to watch bad football?
You're completely ignoring the impact on the rest of the football pyramid. Externalities.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
The no relegation for the 'founding fathers' principle is how Eurovision works. They're creating a Eurovision Football Context. Perhaps they could decide the winners based on voting instead of goals.
I agree that Scottish Independence is like Brexit - in the sense they are both perfectly, 100% viable if that is what the voters choose.
It isn't a "myth" that the UK can make up any disruption that Brexit causes with Europe with trade with the rest of the world. Indeed that's already the case now.
While its certainly true that Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids, since Brexit is not the bad thing that Nabavi has convinced himself it is, that's not a problem for Scotland.
Yes Scotland is more tightly integrated with the UK today. That is true. Yes, Scottish Independence will cause more disruption than Brexit did, that is also true. But the Scots have not just more to lose but more to gain in controlling their own destiny.
The UK could replace any disruption with the EU either domestically or with the approximately 7.2 billion people around the globe who aren't in the EU. Scotland can replace any disruption with the rest of the UK either domestically, or with the same 7.2 billion, or with the 440 million people of the EU.
Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids yes: More risk, but also more opportunities.
Don't be blinded to the opportunities of both.
This is simply wrong. Scotland's trade with England is much larger as a share of its GDP than the UK's trade with the EU-27 - about three times larger, according to some estimates. It is therefore much more challenging for Scotland to replace its loss of trade with England with trade with the rest of the world than it was for the UK since last year (and that is difficult enough). It is likely to be impossible for decades and perhaps ever.
What are the great economic opportunities that Scotland has from controlling its own destiny? I simply don't see them. They will survive, of course, but economically independence is likely to be an exercise in damage mitigation rather than a climb to prosperity. There might be some gain from managing their macroeconomic policy in their own interests, but they would deprive themselves of this by joining the EU.
Which brings us neatly to the currency question. Scotland certainly could not replace even a small fraction of UK trade with EU trade without joining the EU (thereby sacrifcing any RoW gains), and that means joining the Euro. Scotland is part of an optimal currency area with the rest of the UK, but I don't think anyone has ever said it even comes close to being one with the euro area. It would have to meet the economically illiterate convergence criteria, starting from a disastrous fiscal position. Then it would be a deficit country in a system rigged to favour (German) creditors. How did that work out for Greece and Spain?
The SNP usually counter arguments based on undergraduate level economics like the above with vague assertions about Ireland or Denmark. But that simply doesn't make sense, because those countries are much more productive than Scotland, but the SNP's policies (a larger state, more intervention in markets) would actually make Scotland much less productive than now, rather than more, and the SNP has no favourable supply side policies to counterbalance those.
So while the economic arguments may be similar between Brexit and Scexit, the balance of arguments is totally different. Choosing to leave the UK really will be Scotland's heart beating its head.
Its not wrong.
I acknowledged that Scotland's trade with England is much larger as a share of GDP - so that's not a contradiction.
It is not "difficult enough" for the UK to be able to cope with Brexit, the UK has done it already. Brexit is a non-event macroeconomically.
Would Scotland have more disruption? Yes. But Scotland also has potentially more partners to recover any disruption from, they don't have the same "rest of the world" that the UK does. The UK's rest of the world is the rest of the world excluding the EU - Scotland's rest of the world is the rest of the world including the EU.
That you don't see opportunities for Scots controlling their own destiny is fine, others do. Just as Nabavi couldn't see opportunities for Brits controlling their own destiny, but others do and did.
What are these opportunities? Simply asserting that they exist is not enough. And the SNP can never demonstrate them.
And where do all the gains from trade with the RoW come from if Scotland joins the single market? And if the SNP tightens the state's strangehold on the economy?
Actually asserting that they exist is enough. If the SNP do a bad job of managing an independent Scotland they can be voted out and replaced by anyone else.
It is not enough for a convincing argument, though it may be enough to fool some of the more gullible.
As for "where" the answer is anywhere. The EU represents 3% of the world's population, England, Wales and Northern Ireland combined represent under 1% of the world's population. The UK had 97% of the world's population to replace any displaced trade with (domestically or rest of the world). An independent Scotland has 99% of the world's population to replace any displaced trade with (domestically, the EU itself or the rest of the world).
Population size is not the most relevant factor in calculating trade flows. Size of the economy and geographic proximity are.
Keep digging Australia beckons, your arguments are rubbish.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
The interesting thing about this conversation, amongst the abuse, is that @TOPPING is, I think, inadvertently channelling the view of the American backers of the scheme - who come from a culture in which a competition is concocted from the top down - and therefore genuinely don't understand why anyone would see relegation as important. The idea of starting from the bottom and working your way gradually upwards just doesn't happen in American sport.
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
I was with you right up until the last sentence which is laughable. Liar is looking for good headlines in the middle of a local election campaign. "We'll pass laws" - not according to lawyers you won't without unleashing a hornets nest of unintended consequences. So no, it will be referred to the CMA. Who will report long after the local elections, and the whole issue goes away.
OK, the issue doesn't go away. But the Tories don't give a monkeys about the issue. Nor the wider principle about the corrupting power of big money screwing the little man. Just the potential for headlines.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
There may possibly be a competition called the Champions League, but it won't be the same. Hugely less money, and no 'top' clubs, it would be in a worse position than the current Europa League, and just see the prestige that tournament has.
I don't get that - it will still be the CL and of course could still be the CL with the breakaway clubs if UEFA was so minded (I appreciate they don't seem to be...). And then people would either put money into WBA to ensure that they became a "Top Six" club or not.
Either way there would still be all the competitive, qualification-led process except that it would be WBA (or Everton or Leicester) competing for entry. I would have thought that would thrill their fans.
On topic, the desultory engagement of a couple of Scotch experts while everyone else is fulminating over the Fitba is surely a sign o’ the times. Everything that can be said has been said, all the weary tropes have been exhausted, the people irrelevant to the process remain irrelevant and still no one is capable of making a positive case for the Union (or not without reflexive and associated threats anyway). That the most interesting thing about a national election is what effect one indy supporting party will have upon another indy supporting party says it all. Outside a few (a very few) living rooms and lodge halls, Unionism is dead as an ideology and a growing and evolving political force.
Nice to see that ‘don yer tin hats & beware frothing Nats’ followed by striking absence of same is still a fine old PB meme though.
Me, frothing? Perish the thought.
But it is also very interesting outside PB (and with a few honourable instances within PB, who aren't even Scots so far as I know, though one is now a new Scot) that it's the Unionist commentators now who are saying that saying No to Indyref 2 is just not on. The political conversation is now turning to how to do 1978-type wrecking amendments (i.e. gerrymandering, getting the dead to vote No, etc.). Which also says a lot about Unionism's faith in itself.
The betting is saying that Sindy2 in 22 is becoming significantly more likely.
Trading in the 3s now not the 5s as it had been.
It isn't, there will never be an authorised indyref2 as long as we continue to have a Tory majority government in the UK.
As yesterday's Mori poll confirmed only a PM Starmer will allow an indyref2, with over 60% of Tory voters backing Boris' position and opposing allowing an indyref2 even if the SNP win a Holyrood majority even if a majority of Labour and LD voters backed allowing an indyref2 in such circumstances.
You are a broken record
He is also wholly off-message. The ScotsCon field signs up here implore people to vote Tory "and stop Indyref2". The Tories know that a majority for independence means a new referendum. Perhaps the Essicks Massiv aint't been sent the memo innit.
@HYUFD is a zealot and more measured minds need to be involved in this, and as far as I am concerned as a Unionist I believe the way to deal positively is to afford indyref2 in 22/23 and make the case and win it
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
have a look at where these clubs are based, The cities of London, Manchester and Liverpool.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
OK, the issue doesn't go away. But the Tories don't give a monkeys about the issue. Nor the wider principle about the corrupting power of big money screwing the little man. Just the potential for headlines.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
And as a West Ham fan I have to say I get just as much thrill and interest in the game from the Hammers fighting (and sometimes losing) a relegation battle as I do from them fighting for a CL place. Obviously the latter is ore pleasant but it becomes kind of meaningless if the other extreme is not available.
I am a West Ham as a result of growing up in a family filled with West Ham fans (except my Mum who is a Mill Wall fan) . But I think I have retained my support for the club precisely because it has, at times, been such a roller coaster ride.
I can imagine that your mum being Millwall and your dad West Ham added, shall we say, some er 'spice' to their relationship!
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
The no relegation for the 'founding fathers' principle is how Eurovision works. They're creating a Eurovision Football Context. Perhaps they could decide the winners based on voting instead of goals.
Or perhaps they could get the clubs respective accountants on to the pitch and see who has the most money, and declare the winner based on that.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
The interesting thing about this conversation, amongst the abuse, is that @TOPPING is, I think, inadvertently channelling the view of the American backers of the scheme - who come from a culture in which a competition is concocted from the top down - and therefore genuinely don't understand why anyone would see relegation as important. The idea of starting from the bottom and working your way gradually upwards just doesn't happen in American sport.
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
Yes of course. Topping is not dim, generally. He just doesn't understand the problem, because he doesn't understand football on a basic level. And yes, that's the exact same problem with the owners. More and more games between the best teams forever! What could possibly go wrong with that?!
They didn't see this coming because they lack an intuitive sense of the game, which is no fault of theirs, but is a pretty blood major issue if they try to change the entire sport
On topic, the desultory engagement of a couple of Scotch experts while everyone else is fulminating over the Fitba is surely a sign o’ the times. Everything that can be said has been said, all the weary tropes have been exhausted, the people irrelevant to the process remain irrelevant and still no one is capable of making a positive case for the Union (or not without reflexive and associated threats anyway). That the most interesting thing about a national election is what effect one indy supporting party will have upon another indy supporting party says it all. Outside a few (a very few) living rooms and lodge halls, Unionism is dead as an ideology and a growing and evolving political force.
Nice to see that ‘don yer tin hats & beware frothing Nats’ followed by striking absence of same is still a fine old PB meme though.
Me, frothing? Perish the thought.
But it is also very interesting outside PB (and with a few honourable instances within PB, who aren't even Scots so far as I know, though one is now a new Scot) that it's the Unionist commentators now who are saying that saying No to Indyref 2 is just not on. The political conversation is now turning to how to do 1978-type wrecking amendments (i.e. gerrymandering, getting the dead to vote No, etc.). Which also says a lot about Unionism's faith in itself.
The betting is saying that Sindy2 in 22 is becoming significantly more likely.
Trading in the 3s now not the 5s as it had been.
It isn't, there will never be an authorised indyref2 as long as we continue to have a Tory majority government in the UK.
As yesterday's Mori poll confirmed only a PM Starmer will allow an indyref2, with over 60% of Tory voters backing Boris' position and opposing allowing an indyref2 even if the SNP win a Holyrood majority even if a majority of Labour and LD voters backed allowing an indyref2 in such circumstances.
You are a broken record
He is also wholly off-message. The ScotsCon field signs up here implore people to vote Tory "and stop Indyref2". The Tories know that a majority for independence means a new referendum. Perhaps the Essicks Massiv aint't been sent the memo innit.
@HYUFD is a zealot and more measured minds need to be involved in this, and as far as I am concerned as a Unionist I believe the way to deal positively is to afford indyref2 in 22/23 and make the case and win it
Tough, we have a Tory majority government and as Mori showed yesterday 62% of Tory voters think the UK government should not allow an indyref2 even if the SNP win a majority in May.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
The no relegation for the 'founding fathers' principle is how Eurovision works. They're creating a Eurovision Football Context. Perhaps they could decide the winners based on voting instead of goals.
All the English teams immediately get nul point due to Brexit.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
But the top would still be EPL champions and entry to the Champions League. Just without (if UEFA have their way) the Big Six. We don't know either who the extra five teams in the ESL would be (do we?) so it could possibly be that.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
Simon Jordon made a good point this morning....all the talk of tv rights, who will buy them...this might be the kick up the arse for the Netflix-ifaction of football.
We know Mouse TV own Bamtech and they are happy to offer their best in class sports streaming tech to anybody who will give them a %. Cutting out all the middlemen, the clubs could get to earn even more revnue from having the Football-Flix.
One channel, all the major leagues. No need for £100 a month for Sky, BT Sports and Amazon.
Does a single day pass without you ramping Disney+ – the home of Adult Fans of Superheroes?
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
You've never been to a match. You've never watched a game. You have no idea whereof you speak. Your contributions are therefore worthless, on this issue, so just desist. Ta
Which might be an argument if you do not support the government also getting (ludicrously) involved .He is a voter and taxpayer and so if the government get involved it is everyones business .
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
The no relegation for the 'founding fathers' principle is how Eurovision works. They're creating a Eurovision Football Context. Perhaps they could decide the winners based on voting instead of goals.
To be fair, the Big 5 pay for Eurovision, so I think it’s fair that they make the final irrespective of how rubbish their songs are.
"A Redbridge Conservative councillor has left the party due to his frustration with the Government’s handling of coronavirus.
Cllr Robin Turbefield (Bridge) says he is “not a Covid-denier or anti-vaxxer” but feels the Government “approached the situation in the wrong way” by locking the country down.
After more than a decade as a Conservative councillor, he has now joined the former Brexit Party, renamed Reform UK earlier this year."
A truly amazing statement from the guy at Real Madrid
"In an interview with Spanish TV, the Super League and Real Madrid chairman Florentino Perez insisted expulsion from the Champions League would not happen, and even suggested that matches could be shortened from 90 minutes to attract younger viewers."
What, so the ESL is going to own football, and they can change fundamental rules however they like, just because, and without consultation. They are the Founding Fathers.
The arrogance is possibly more breathtaking than the stupidity, which is another reason this must be shot down in flames
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
How fascinating that Liar is prepared to draw the line for the interests of peons when it comes to football, but backs money over doctors, cab drivers, nurses, firemen etc etc etc at every other opportunity.
He's such a hypocrite. And its lapped up by the most blinkered on here.
Unfortunately your hatred of Boris requires you to attempt to diminish him on every occasion, but on this he is on the side of the people
And why insult the tens of thousands of football supporters as blinkered
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
That's not the way football works. Football works by clubs earning the spot in the elite competitions on the field. The Champions League would be a minor League like Europa but could be with clubs that won or finished near the top of the Premier League, while the "Super League" would be having clubs that could have finished in the bottom half of the Premier League.
That's not football.
It is crap enough as it is with teams that finished nowhere near top of their leagues in the champions league and seeded. Nothing like the old days when these supposed giants had to go to far flung places and risk going out in first round.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
Have the Satanic Six really wargamed the possibility of a UK government doing all it can to stop them?
I doubt it. They would have expected a brutal backlash from fans, UEFA and many journalists. But that, I reckon, is about it
They surely did not expect all of European media, all of European social media, multiple cultural figures, every commentator alive, and the UK, Spanish and French governments up to Prime Minister Boris Johnson and President Macron, to come after them
And One Direction. And Prince William
have a look at where these clubs are based, The cities of London, Manchester and Liverpool.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
But the top would still be EPL champions and entry to the Champions League. Just without (if UEFA have their way) the Big Six. We don't know either who the extra five teams in the ESL would be (do we?) so it could possibly be that.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
I have less of a problem with the "big 6" being in the Super League so long as they are removed from the Premier League. I have a problem with them having their cake and eating it.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
There may possibly be a competition called the Champions League, but it won't be the same. Hugely less money, and no 'top' clubs, it would be in a worse position than the current Europa League, and just see the prestige that tournament has.
I don't get that - it will still be the CL and of course could still be the CL with the breakaway clubs if UEFA was so minded (I appreciate they don't seem to be...). And then people would either put money into WBA to ensure that they became a "Top Six" club or not.
Either way there would still be all the competitive, qualification-led process except that it would be WBA (or Everton or Leicester) competing for entry. I would have thought that would thrill their fans.
You really don't get any of this do you.
Are you so naive to even think the concept of these clubs playing in the PL and CL and this league could happen???
The thrill comes from the opportunity to complete against the best, remove that from the CL and the entire structure collapses both from a interest and monetary viewpoint.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
The interesting thing about this conversation, amongst the abuse, is that @TOPPING is, I think, inadvertently channelling the view of the American backers of the scheme - who come from a culture in which a competition is concocted from the top down - and therefore genuinely don't understand why anyone would see relegation as important. The idea of starting from the bottom and working your way gradually upwards just doesn't happen in American sport.
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
Yes of course. Topping is not dim, generally. He just doesn't understand the problem, because he doesn't understand football on a basic level. And yes, that's the exact same problem with the owners. More and more games between the best teams forever! What could possibly go wrong with that?!
They didn't see this coming because they lack an intuitive sense of the game, which is no fault of theirs, but is a pretty blood major issue if they try to change the entire sport
It's why Americans play different sports. We are playing games. They are playing Capitalism Lite.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
The interesting thing about this conversation, amongst the abuse, is that @TOPPING is, I think, inadvertently channelling the view of the American backers of the scheme - who come from a culture in which a competition is concocted from the top down - and therefore genuinely don't understand why anyone would see relegation as important. The idea of starting from the bottom and working your way gradually upwards just doesn't happen in American sport.
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
I am perfectly aware of the importance of "working your way up". But this is a separate league. Teams will still be able to work their way up to the top of the EPL. But it won't be with those top six clubs. So the fans of those top six clubs will be disappointed not to win the EPL. But that is down to UEFA.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
Restraint of Trade?
the government ludicrously trying to make laws to prevent this would finally seal the argument that this government is interventionist , nanny state , authoritarian . The argument is that they had to be on Covid-19 cannot hold on this . Governments really do not need to concern themselves over football leagues and the make up of them - Its fkin stupid
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
Steady on now...
But you're right. Football is very much at the heart and soul of our nation. Like the Queen, it's a constant thing there. This is an attack on our very fabric of society, and just for grubby money.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
How fascinating that Liar is prepared to draw the line for the interests of peons when it comes to football, but backs money over doctors, cab drivers, nurses, firemen etc etc etc at every other opportunity.
He's such a hypocrite. And its lapped up by the most blinkered on here.
Unfortunately your hatred of Boris requires you to attempt to diminish him on every occasion, but on this he is on the side of the people
And why insult the tens of thousands of football supporters as blinkered
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
But the top would still be EPL champions and entry to the Champions League. Just without (if UEFA have their way) the Big Six. We don't know either who the extra five teams in the ESL would be (do we?) so it could possibly be that.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
I have less of a problem with the "big 6" being in the Super League so long as they are removed from the Premier League. I have a problem with them having their cake and eating it.
I have zero problems with the big 6 resigning from the Premiership and trying to survive elsewhere.
It would be interesting to see if it worked or completely flopped
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
A truly amazing statement from the guy at Real Madrid
"In an interview with Spanish TV, the Super League and Real Madrid chairman Florentino Perez insisted expulsion from the Champions League would not happen, and even suggested that matches could be shortened from 90 minutes to attract younger viewers."
What, so the ESL is going to own football, and they can change fundamental rules however they like, just because, and without consultation. They are the Founding Fathers.
The arrogance is possibly more breathtaking than the stupidity, which is another reason this must be shot down in flames
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
As your post nicely shows, football fans are so emotionally invested in their team that it forms a key part of their identity. Non football-fans don't understand this.
The fact that this emotional attachment doesn't chime even slightly with the commercial nature of what the sport has long become is the crux of the problem.
I would politely suggest some posts on here this morning do indicate a lack of knowledge of football, its history, and how important it is to many, and not just red wall seats, but supporters in Scotland and Wales
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
I was with you right up until the last sentence which is laughable. Liar is looking for good headlines in the middle of a local election campaign. "We'll pass laws" - not according to lawyers you won't without unleashing a hornets nest of unintended consequences. So no, it will be referred to the CMA. Who will report long after the local elections, and the whole issue goes away.
OK, the issue doesn't go away. But the Tories don't give a monkeys about the issue. Nor the wider principle about the corrupting power of big money screwing the little man. Just the potential for headlines.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
Good post. Lots of clubs in the lower leagues are big clubs...
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
There may possibly be a competition called the Champions League, but it won't be the same. Hugely less money, and no 'top' clubs, it would be in a worse position than the current Europa League, and just see the prestige that tournament has.
I don't get that - it will still be the CL and of course could still be the CL with the breakaway clubs if UEFA was so minded (I appreciate they don't seem to be...). And then people would either put money into WBA to ensure that they became a "Top Six" club or not.
Either way there would still be all the competitive, qualification-led process except that it would be WBA (or Everton or Leicester) competing for entry. I would have thought that would thrill their fans.
Indeed, it might improve the CL and EL, by evening out the playing field with the rest of the competitors. Both are too dominated by English teams in the final stages nowadays.
I am increasingly inclined to the view that the Six can piss off and die, or evolve into Shanghai Hotspur, Wuhan Red Devils etc. Football will be better off without them. A good article here on the subject:
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
Please explain exactly what is the problem with the ESL. Try not to use the phrase "no relegation" in your answer.
Please use both sides of the page (actually, please don't).
Qualification for a competition should have been earned on the field.
Relegation is the wrong phrase since this is more of a Cup than a League. West Ham ranking higher than Liverpool if that's how the table ends means West Ham deserve the Cup next season more than Liverpool do. And I say that as a Liverpool fan, when we get it, I want us to have earned it.
But there will still be the CL for those that don't go.
There may possibly be a competition called the Champions League, but it won't be the same. Hugely less money, and no 'top' clubs, it would be in a worse position than the current Europa League, and just see the prestige that tournament has.
I don't get that - it will still be the CL and of course could still be the CL with the breakaway clubs if UEFA was so minded (I appreciate they don't seem to be...). And then people would either put money into WBA to ensure that they became a "Top Six" club or not.
Either way there would still be all the competitive, qualification-led process except that it would be WBA (or Everton or Leicester) competing for entry. I would have thought that would thrill their fans.
You really don't get any of this do you.
Are you so naive to even think the concept of these clubs playing in the PL and CL and this league could happen???
The thrill comes from the opportunity to complete against the best, remove that from the CL and the entire structure collapses both from a interest and monetary viewpoint.
There will be a new best. Everton, Leicester, West Ham, etc would become the new Big Six (er, Three). If the current Big Six go. They might not of course in which case what's the problem.
And as for "the opportunity to compete against the best". I think it is the opportunity to be in (and win) the EPL. Which will remain.
I agree that Scottish Independence is like Brexit - in the sense they are both perfectly, 100% viable if that is what the voters choose.
It isn't a "myth" that the UK can make up any disruption that Brexit causes with Europe with trade with the rest of the world. Indeed that's already the case now.
While its certainly true that Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids, since Brexit is not the bad thing that Nabavi has convinced himself it is, that's not a problem for Scotland.
Yes Scotland is more tightly integrated with the UK today. That is true. Yes, Scottish Independence will cause more disruption than Brexit did, that is also true. But the Scots have not just more to lose but more to gain in controlling their own destiny.
The UK could replace any disruption with the EU either domestically or with the approximately 7.2 billion people around the globe who aren't in the EU. Scotland can replace any disruption with the rest of the UK either domestically, or with the same 7.2 billion, or with the 440 million people of the EU.
Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids yes: More risk, but also more opportunities.
Don't be blinded to the opportunities of both.
This is simply wrong. Scotland's trade with England is much larger as a share of its GDP than the UK's trade with the EU-27 - about three times larger, according to some estimates. It is therefore much more challenging for Scotland to replace its loss of trade with England with trade with the rest of the world than it was for the UK since last year (and that is difficult enough). It is likely to be impossible for decades and perhaps ever.
What are the great economic opportunities that Scotland has from controlling its own destiny? I simply don't see them. They will survive, of course, but economically independence is likely to be an exercise in damage mitigation rather than a climb to prosperity. There might be some gain from managing their macroeconomic policy in their own interests, but they would deprive themselves of this by joining the EU.
Which brings us neatly to the currency question. Scotland certainly could not replace even a small fraction of UK trade with EU trade without joining the EU (thereby sacrifcing any RoW gains), and that means joining the Euro. Scotland is part of an optimal currency area with the rest of the UK, but I don't think anyone has ever said it even comes close to being one with the euro area. It would have to meet the economically illiterate convergence criteria, starting from a disastrous fiscal position. Then it would be a deficit country in a system rigged to favour (German) creditors. How did that work out for Greece and Spain?
The SNP usually counter arguments based on undergraduate level economics like the above with vague assertions about Ireland or Denmark. But that simply doesn't make sense, because those countries are much more productive than Scotland, but the SNP's policies (a larger state, more intervention in markets) would actually make Scotland much less productive than now, rather than more, and the SNP has no favourable supply side policies to counterbalance those.
So while the economic arguments may be similar between Brexit and Scexit, the balance of arguments is totally different. Choosing to leave the UK really will be Scotland's heart beating its head.
Utter bollox , Philip is perfectly correct. Scotland despite it's vast natural resources is at bottom of pile of small nations. All are far more prosperous with less resources, we cannot do any worse than we are doing shackled as a colony of England.
The naivete of the "cannot do any worse" sentiment would be amusing if it weren't condemning Scots to a brutal experiment where the outcome may well be "you were very, very wrong, malcy.....".
How much of a hit to the Scottish economy is indy worth?
On topic, the desultory engagement of a couple of Scotch experts while everyone else is fulminating over the Fitba is surely a sign o’ the times. Everything that can be said has been said, all the weary tropes have been exhausted, the people irrelevant to the process remain irrelevant and still no one is capable of making a positive case for the Union (or not without reflexive and associated threats anyway). That the most interesting thing about a national election is what effect one indy supporting party will have upon another indy supporting party says it all. Outside a few (a very few) living rooms and lodge halls, Unionism is dead as an ideology and a growing and evolving political force.
Nice to see that ‘don yer tin hats & beware frothing Nats’ followed by striking absence of same is still a fine old PB meme though.
Me, frothing? Perish the thought.
But it is also very interesting outside PB (and with a few honourable instances within PB, who aren't even Scots so far as I know, though one is now a new Scot) that it's the Unionist commentators now who are saying that saying No to Indyref 2 is just not on. The political conversation is now turning to how to do 1978-type wrecking amendments (i.e. gerrymandering, getting the dead to vote No, etc.). Which also says a lot about Unionism's faith in itself.
The betting is saying that Sindy2 in 22 is becoming significantly more likely.
Trading in the 3s now not the 5s as it had been.
It isn't, there will never be an authorised indyref2 as long as we continue to have a Tory majority government in the UK.
As yesterday's Mori poll confirmed only a PM Starmer will allow an indyref2, with over 60% of Tory voters backing Boris' position and opposing allowing an indyref2 even if the SNP win a Holyrood majority even if a majority of Labour and LD voters backed allowing an indyref2 in such circumstances.
You are a broken record
He is also wholly off-message. The ScotsCon field signs up here implore people to vote Tory "and stop Indyref2". The Tories know that a majority for independence means a new referendum. Perhaps the Essicks Massiv aint't been sent the memo innit.
@HYUFD is a zealot and more measured minds need to be involved in this, and as far as I am concerned as a Unionist I believe the way to deal positively is to afford indyref2 in 22/23 and make the case and win it
Tough, we have a Tory majority government and as Mori showed yesterday 62% of Tory voters think the UK government should not allow an indyref2 even if the SNP win a majority in May.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
So now we are all in favour of Sky's multi-billion dollar TV rights package for which you pay £70/month?
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
Good post. Lots of clubs in the lower leagues are big clubs...
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
Instead of the phrase "big clubs", which seems to get people's backs up, maybe it's better to call them "significant sporting institutions" or "clubs of significance".
Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday, etc are undoubtedly significant sporting institutions in England, even if they are currently not successful sporting institutions.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
So now we are all in favour of Sky's multi-billion dollar TV rights package for which you pay £70/month?
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
So now we are all in favour of Sky's multi-billion dollar TV rights package for which you pay £70/month?
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
You don't understand football, otherwise you would know instinctively. There's no point
But I'll have one more heave: closed shop. No relegation. Hideous. If you don't grasp this intuitively you do not comprehend football and I suggest you stop talking about it
"No relegation".
The domestic leagues will continue with relegation and promotion, etc. What's so bad about Liverpool also playing Real Madrid on a Wednesday evening.
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
FFS you minge-head there's no relegation for the "founding fathers"
So just shut your damn mouth now
LOL. "you mong". I see you are harking back to your jumpers for goalposts time as a lad watching Aston Rovers in 1906 with your father.
So what if there is no relegation for the "founding fathers"? What does that even mean? Each year those teams will compete to win the league (if it's not a knockout competition). Who cares that there is no relegation? You get to see those teams play to see who's the best.
Be honest, you've never watched a football match in your life, have you? Not in the flesh?
You've never been to a league ground, paid money, and watched a game.
Anyone who has, instinctively gets the problem here, which is why 99% of people who watch football understand and hate the ESL idea. It's very telling that you don't
The interesting thing about this conversation, amongst the abuse, is that @TOPPING is, I think, inadvertently channelling the view of the American backers of the scheme - who come from a culture in which a competition is concocted from the top down - and therefore genuinely don't understand why anyone would see relegation as important. The idea of starting from the bottom and working your way gradually upwards just doesn't happen in American sport.
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
I am perfectly aware of the importance of "working your way up". But this is a separate league. Teams will still be able to work their way up to the top of the EPL. But it won't be with those top six clubs. So the fans of those top six clubs will be disappointed not to win the EPL. But that is down to UEFA.
Oh, well possibly we agree. Apologies if I was misrepresenting you. My position is that the super league is stupid, because closed shop and no relegation. The EPL is not stupid, because not closed shop. Therefore, the super league will start out dull and get duller, and its attraction will dwindle in a way that those from a different sporting culture don't understand. The EPL will be fine without the big six (who can't really be allowed to stay and play their second string sides). It'll lose some money initially, but that's no bad thing for the consumer, and it'll be fine in the long run.
Mr. Stocky, I do find it hard to understand the tribal, religious support some people have.
I guess the closest in F1 is the Tifosi (serious Ferrari fans).
So do I. I find is bizarre. I enjoy football very much, particularly the national aspects, but really for me it is mostly just another vehicle for betting.
The thing I don't understand with ESL is why they went with the Closed Shop. That is what has screwed the PR entirely.
The potential gain of grasping control of the Champions League away from UEFA is massive. Worth far, far more than perpetually being qualifiers automatically of a competition they would almost never not qualify to anyway..
If they'd launched this with the intention that the top 6 qualify (whoever that top 6 may be) then the big 6 clubs would be in a much stronger position with the fans and winning a lot from UEFA.
NFL model, innit?
Yes but its just not cricket football.
Someone involved in the project should have known the importance of the pyramid.
The NFL regularly has a franchise up sticks from one city and decamp in another. The owners of our 6 have no comprehension of the tribal loyalties that underpin football. Wimbledon getting bought and moved to Milton Keynes should have rung alarm bells. The plucky AFC Wimbledon formed and fought their way up umpteen leagues - and in doing so, became most everyone's favourite second team.
But MK Dons is still a commercial success and richer than AFC Wimbledon...they have more season tickets holders than even when Wimbledon were in the EPL, modern stadium, diversified income from events, hotel, retail....
On the pitch MK Dons might only be in League one, but they are financially much better position. For all the screeching, 10,000 people turn up for homes games at MK Dons in League One.
But football fans STILL wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire. Outside the loyalist/nationalist divide in NI, it is hard to think of a group that is better at bearing a grudge than football fans. They are passed on, from father to son.
I'm looking forward to fans being back, and the Six being subjected to the chant of "You greedy fucking bastards" week in, week out.....
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet. Maybe all artists should need a government approval before they can display their art in an approved gallery format as well?
On topic, the desultory engagement of a couple of Scotch experts while everyone else is fulminating over the Fitba is surely a sign o’ the times. Everything that can be said has been said, all the weary tropes have been exhausted, the people irrelevant to the process remain irrelevant and still no one is capable of making a positive case for the Union (or not without reflexive and associated threats anyway). That the most interesting thing about a national election is what effect one indy supporting party will have upon another indy supporting party says it all. Outside a few (a very few) living rooms and lodge halls, Unionism is dead as an ideology and a growing and evolving political force.
Nice to see that ‘don yer tin hats & beware frothing Nats’ followed by striking absence of same is still a fine old PB meme though.
Translation: my cognitive dissonance skills are supreme, and I will dismiss any awkward questions to the contrary.
One lesson I learned from 2014 was to rigorously separate pricking diddies without votes on the internet from trying to influence & persuade people with votes; one's a diversion, the other's important.
Fair enough. I might have more respect for that were I to see you (ever) put anyone raising challenges around Scottish Independence into the latter camp. So far, I have not.
Can you name even one non-nationalist person (just one) who wouldn't incur your ire?
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
Is it likely? Yes. It's been done twice in my lifetime. Wimbledon and Wigan Athletic have both gone from non league to lengthy spells in the top tier. Latics played in Europe too.
The thing I don't understand with ESL is why they went with the Closed Shop. That is what has screwed the PR entirely.
The potential gain of grasping control of the Champions League away from UEFA is massive. Worth far, far more than perpetually being qualifiers automatically of a competition they would almost never not qualify to anyway..
If they'd launched this with the intention that the top 6 qualify (whoever that top 6 may be) then the big 6 clubs would be in a much stronger position with the fans and winning a lot from UEFA.
NFL model, innit?
Yes but its just not cricket football.
Someone involved in the project should have known the importance of the pyramid.
The NFL regularly has a franchise up sticks from one city and decamp in another. The owners of our 6 have no comprehension of the tribal loyalties that underpin football. Wimbledon getting bought and moved to Milton Keynes should have rung alarm bells. The plucky AFC Wimbledon formed and fought their way up umpteen leagues - and in doing so, became most everyone's favourite second team.
But MK Dons is still a commercial success and richer than AFC Wimbledon...they have more season tickets holders than even when Wimbledon were in the EPL, modern stadium, diversified income from events, hotel, retail....
On the pitch MK Dons might only be in League one, but they are financially much better position. For all the screeching, 10,000 people turn up for homes games at MK Dons in League One.
But football fans STILL wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire. Outside the loyalist/nationalist divide in NI, it is hard to think of a group that is better at bearing a grudge than football fans. They are passed on, from father to son.
I'm looking forward to fans being back, and the Six being subjected to the chant of "You greedy fucking bastards" week in, week out.....
I don't see how the Six continue to play in the Premiership - probably on health and safety grounds.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Telling people "who they can play with" is literally what governments have done since the dawn of time.
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
Is it likely? Yes. It's been done twice in my lifetime. Wimbledon and Wigan Athletic have both gone from non league to lengthy spells in the top tier.
Twice in a lifetime is still an unlikely event.
Plus I said winning the PL and the Champions League, neither Wimbledon nor Wigan achieved that.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Hmm. Not sure.
If you are a free-market libertarian you would say "no" I agree. Currently though there must be other examples of governmental structures under which a multitude of corporates operate in a free market way?
Our current system is not completely balls-out free market is it?
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
Good post. Lots of clubs in the lower leagues are big clubs...
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
Instead of the phrase "big clubs", which seems to get people's backs up, maybe it's better to call them "significant sporting institutions" or "clubs of significance".
Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday, etc are undoubtedly significant sporting institutions in England, even if they are currently not successful sporting institutions.
"clubs of significance" can still work their way back to being "big clubs" - through years of hard work, supported by a through thick-and-thin fan base. Witness Leeds.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Everyone wants other people to be stopped from doing bad things. Always has done. Section 28, Dangerous Dogs, Smoking in Pubs, Gina Miller, Prorogation, you get the picture.
Nobody wants to be told what to do.
Nobody has really found a way to untangle that knot.
Following Boris meeting with football organisations this morning no 10 issued the following statement
The Prime Minister confirmed the government will not stand by while a small handful of owners create a closed shop.
He was clear that no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped
How fascinating that Liar is prepared to draw the line for the interests of peons when it comes to football, but backs money over doctors, cab drivers, nurses, firemen etc etc etc at every other opportunity.
He's such a hypocrite. And its lapped up by the most blinkered on here.
This Government is very politically astute, at least in England.
That's a separate issue to its standards of integrity, or its general competence.
I think much of the frustration from other parties comes from recognising that its skills at the former provide cover for the latter.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Hmm. Not sure.
If you are a free-market libertarian you would say "no" I agree. Currently though there must be other examples of governmental structures under which a multitude of corporates operate in a free market way?
Our current system is not completely balls-out free market is it?
but it seems especially ludicrous to intervene on something that is fundamentally trivial - food supply , medicine supply , housing supply possibly - but deciding who can play who at trying to kick a ball in the net more than the other team is Alice in Wonderland stuff mixed with a bit of macho communism
Mr. Stocky, I do find it hard to understand the tribal, religious support some people have.
I guess the closest in F1 is the Tifosi (serious Ferrari fans).
Years ago I provocatively said to my football-mad friend (Man Utd) that we could simply dispense with the football and get the clubs to lay out their balance sheets and we could just decide on the winner that way.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Everyone wants other people to be stopped from doing bad things. Always has done. Section 28, Dangerous Dogs, Smoking in Pubs, Gina Miller, Prorogation, you get the picture.
Nobody wants to be told what to do.
Nobody has really found a way to untangle that knot.
Become an authoritarian PM with a clown shield to avoid being told what he can do?
Dan Roan @danroan Source close to the breakaway clubs insisting reports today of cracks starting to appear among ‘the 6’, with suggestions City/CFC reconsidering, are nothing more than “mischief-making”, and that the rebel alliance remains firm...
Dan Roan @danroan Source close to the breakaway clubs insisting reports today of cracks starting to appear among ‘the 6’, with suggestions City/CFC reconsidering, are nothing more than “mischief-making”, and that the rebel alliance remains firm...
There are rumours of clubs having 2nd thoughts. Specifically Chelsea and City.
When did you last go to a game, Leon?
10 years ago? Maybe more
What the F does it matter. I was a passionate - and I mean PASSIONATE fan as a kid - I would attend reserve matches of my local club - reserves! in the 4th division! - and I adored LEEDS as my big club. Travelled by train age 14 to see them at Anfield, what a day!
I was mad on club football into my 20s, then became a more detached fan, focusing more on the premiership football I like - on TV - and to this day I always watch as much euro and World Cup as I can. And UCL, I love a good competitive UCL game, the drama and energy. The mediocrity of the England national team has been a constant source of sincere pain to me, and it still is
My little home team was promoted three times and relegated the same - 3 times - in my youth. I know the pain and anguish, the joy and exhilaration. Promotion and relegation are VITAL to English football. So I can see the horror of the ESL for what it is
Yes yes, jumpers for goalposts, but all this is true. I grew up with footie and it is in my DNA even if I haven't been to an EPL game since 2000 and whatever
So you have enjoyed football at all levels.
Can you summarise for me succintly (big ask, I know) what your objection to this is. What is it going to do to the game you say you love.
It's inherently unfair to simultaneously say claim you are better than all other clubs so deserve your extra competition to earn bigger bucks despite no one else wanting it, and yet also claim that even if other clubs are better than you they still don't get to participate in your competition to get those bigger bucks, as you get to be in it regardless. ie - they want more money, but don't want to risk that they cannot earn the money.
Remove the unfairness and far fewer people would care. Sport is a business, but it is not just a business. We don't mind a lot of dodgy stuff going on in our sport, but a contest should still be an actual contest. Some being more important than others will always be reality, but making that a law of the competition just takes the piss.
It'd be glorified friendlies.
Not at all. It would be the ESL and the punters would determine whether it was successful or not. You may not be a fan of the format but it is a similar format to the PL. Top tier of elite clubs and then (what sounds like) some other clubs rotating in - how I have no idea.
And friendlies? Not at all. Just like any other competition (eg the FA Cup) it is about being the winner.
But they may not always be elite clubs is the point, yet cannot be rotated out no matter what happens. That is distinct. Making a top tier permanent - and a look at league winners over decades show that change can be slow, but does happen. It's just plain wrong to entrench their own positions even if they played like crap forevermore.
I get people are overreacting a bit, but some of the pushback is also ridiculous, suggesting it is no different, or that how dare other organisations or governments act. Whether that is wise or not is perfectly acceptable for others to provide consequences to the move. The clubs can make their choice, and others can choose to make that choice more impactful.
It will be settled on the field or the turnstiles. If they are crap then they will be at the bottom of the ESL every year (much as one or two of the CL teams are now) and then have to fight again another day. They can't be chucked out? Is that really a hill to die on?
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
You just don't get it.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
Is it likely? Yes. It's been done twice in my lifetime. Wimbledon and Wigan Athletic have both gone from non league to lengthy spells in the top tier.
Twice in a lifetime is still an unlikely event.
Plus I said winning the PL and the Champions League, neither Wimbledon nor Wigan achieved that.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
Good post. Lots of clubs in the lower leagues are big clubs...
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
Instead of the phrase "big clubs", which seems to get people's backs up, maybe it's better to call them "significant sporting institutions" or "clubs of significance".
Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday, etc are undoubtedly significant sporting institutions in England, even if they are currently not successful sporting institutions.
"clubs of significance" can still work their way back to being "big clubs" - through years of hard work, supported by a through thick-and-thin fan base. Witness Leeds.
This is what the 6 are turning their back on.
It's also what they (especially their American owners) are scared of.
@TOPPING it devalues the entire English game. The whole point of the entire pyramid is that any team can in theory rise to the top, based purely on sporting success. This prevents that.
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
That devolution means that less money goes down the league and so smaller clubs already struggling go bust.
But you don't get that do you.
Whilst it is not appropriate for government to get too embroiled in the profit-making activities of each club (it has no more right to do this than interfering with any other company) I wonder whether it could be enshrined in law that football clubs complete (i.e. can only operate) through the current league structure and any change to this structure needs parliamentary consent??
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
Do we really want government to tell people who they can play with? Maybe we have gone all 1984 and soviet
Hmm. Not sure.
If you are a free-market libertarian you would say "no" I agree. Currently though there must be other examples of governmental structures under which a multitude of corporates operate in a free market way?
Our current system is not completely balls-out free market is it?
Football clubs aren't really analagous to businesses in other sectors. Tesco don't need Sainsburys, Waitrose, Aldi etc around. In fact they'd do better without them. But Manchester United would struggle to operate commercially without other 'footballing businesses' around to compete against.
Boris going for it. He can see the open goal. He shoots....
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 3m New: Boris Johnson threatens breakaway clubs with new laws to block Super League
He’s told the FA and Premier League no action is off the table and the govt is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure the proposals are stopped
In a few days, this will look seriously, seriously stupid.
Do you think that the football following public (among who this idea is as popular as Labrador genocide) are going to have a damascene conversion?
Do you think the average fan of a lower league club gives a monkeys what happens to a bunch of winghing mancs and scousers and their club?
These people are dinosaurs. Soon to be extinct. The growth for these clubs is all overseas. Not Liverpool.
As a fan of a lower league club, I don't really care what happens to the greedy six, providing that they don't join a ringfenced ESL while remaining part of the EPL.
However the identities of the 6 belong to their communities, so if they do try and join the ESL, the Govt should do all they can to ensure that the communities retain the IP of the big 6, rather than allow them to be stolen away.
I an ideal world the greedy 6 go off to Dubai/Asia/America and start their globetrotting league, and leave the rest of us in peace, with phoenix clubs allowed to rejoin the non-league structure.
Yep, agree with all that. Which is your lower league club? Don't disappoint me by saying Nottm Forest or Sunderland or some other technically lower league but actually pretty big club - I want properly obscure here!
Good post. Lots of clubs in the lower leagues are big clubs...
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
Instead of the phrase "big clubs", which seems to get people's backs up, maybe it's better to call them "significant sporting institutions" or "clubs of significance".
Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday, etc are undoubtedly significant sporting institutions in England, even if they are currently not successful sporting institutions.
Yes, that's a better term. I know what you mean about the big clubs thing – it does wind people up for some reason.
I agree that Scottish Independence is like Brexit - in the sense they are both perfectly, 100% viable if that is what the voters choose.
It isn't a "myth" that the UK can make up any disruption that Brexit causes with Europe with trade with the rest of the world. Indeed that's already the case now.
While its certainly true that Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids, since Brexit is not the bad thing that Nabavi has convinced himself it is, that's not a problem for Scotland.
Yes Scotland is more tightly integrated with the UK today. That is true. Yes, Scottish Independence will cause more disruption than Brexit did, that is also true. But the Scots have not just more to lose but more to gain in controlling their own destiny.
The UK could replace any disruption with the EU either domestically or with the approximately 7.2 billion people around the globe who aren't in the EU. Scotland can replace any disruption with the rest of the UK either domestically, or with the same 7.2 billion, or with the 440 million people of the EU.
Scottish Independence is like Brexit on steroids yes: More risk, but also more opportunities.
Don't be blinded to the opportunities of both.
This is simply wrong. Scotland's trade with England is much larger as a share of its GDP than the UK's trade with the EU-27 - about three times larger, according to some estimates. It is therefore much more challenging for Scotland to replace its loss of trade with England with trade with the rest of the world than it was for the UK since last year (and that is difficult enough). It is likely to be impossible for decades and perhaps ever.
What are the great economic opportunities that Scotland has from controlling its own destiny? I simply don't see them. They will survive, of course, but economically independence is likely to be an exercise in damage mitigation rather than a climb to prosperity. There might be some gain from managing their macroeconomic policy in their own interests, but they would deprive themselves of this by joining the EU.
Which brings us neatly to the currency question. Scotland certainly could not replace even a small fraction of UK trade with EU trade without joining the EU (thereby sacrifcing any RoW gains), and that means joining the Euro. Scotland is part of an optimal currency area with the rest of the UK, but I don't think anyone has ever said it even comes close to being one with the euro area. It would have to meet the economically illiterate convergence criteria, starting from a disastrous fiscal position. Then it would be a deficit country in a system rigged to favour (German) creditors. How did that work out for Greece and Spain?
The SNP usually counter arguments based on undergraduate level economics like the above with vague assertions about Ireland or Denmark. But that simply doesn't make sense, because those countries are much more productive than Scotland, but the SNP's policies (a larger state, more intervention in markets) would actually make Scotland much less productive than now, rather than more, and the SNP has no favourable supply side policies to counterbalance those.
So while the economic arguments may be similar between Brexit and Scexit, the balance of arguments is totally different. Choosing to leave the UK really will be Scotland's heart beating its head.
Utter bollox , Philip is perfectly correct. Scotland despite it's vast natural resources is at bottom of pile of small nations. All are far more prosperous with less resources, we cannot do any worse than we are doing shackled as a colony of England.
I honestly don't know how you can say such a thing, malcolm.
Comments
He's such a hypocrite. And its lapped up by the most blinkered on here.
If this had been done 20 years ago the clubs would have been different
And so one.
The fact is the plan is to give the currently big clubs a permanent advantage while relegating everyone else to secondary (this seasons guest stars) status.
That's not football.
Or as they are otherwise known, the last bastions of labour hegemony. And the clubs want to get out these cities because labour hegemony in them and all that it entails.
That's what a proper conservative government might be pointing out.
Turk Malloy: Who you calling bud, pal?
Virgil Malloy: Who you calling pal, friend?
Turk Malloy: Who you calling friend, jackass?!
Virgil Malloy: Don't call me a jackass.
Turk Malloy: I just did call you a jackass.
OK let me try to work it through myself as no one else is giving me any help.
If, say, Arsenal find themselves 20th for the next five seasons then that might diminish the quality of their football as they might just chuck in the towel as they can't be expelled and just stay to reap the rewards.
So if anything, this might be a disincentive for the clubs to keep their quality high because they get the money regardless. So in theory they could wither and die and leave their fans stranded. And then you would also have a league that no one watches because it's crap.
So then what happens? Liverpool are crap so Liverpool fans are upset so...what?
So what?
Plenty of teams out there are crap and that's just the way it is. They would be playing a crap Real Madrid twice a season. Which of course assumes that there would be no incentive for doing well and the owners were happy to run their clubs down.
Any others want to have a go?
I was taken as a 10 year old by my Father to all Berwick Rangers home games and took an interest in Man Utd having been born in North Manchester. When I moved to Edinburgh for work I had a season ticket for Hibs
And when we finally moved to North Wales in 1965 I took out a season ticket for United and actually once slept overnight on the Stretford End to get Cup Final tickets
Football has been part of my life for near 70 years and what is going on just now is pure greed and elitism that will destroy the Premier League and the European Champions league
If Boris does stop this, could we even hear his name being chanted on the Kop as a hero and legend
Cllr Robin Turbefield (Bridge) says he is “not a Covid-denier or anti-vaxxer” but feels the Government “approached the situation in the wrong way” by locking the country down.
After more than a decade as a Conservative councillor, he has now joined the former Brexit Party, renamed Reform UK earlier this year."
https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/19245197.redbridge-conservative-leaves-party-handling-covid/
See also: Person sacked/cancelled for saying something on Twitter (yet failing to cite what that person actually said on Twitter).
As you say, a very common problem – I'm not at all a fan of what appears to be willing censorship. The BBC is a prime culprit of this. Let readers make up their own minds.
https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/
This is a battle of business v sport. American sporting culture vs European sporting culture.
Furthermore it will devalue the TV rights to the Premier League and by consequence devalue the "solidarity" payments made to the rest of the Football League.
But you're right. Football is very much at the heart and soul of our nation. Like the Queen, it's a constant thing there. This is an attack on our very fabric of society, and just for grubby money.
If Arsenal are bottom they should go down, no ifs, no buts, and be replaced with a team from below who have earned their spot. That's sport.
Heck that used to be something that was fun to do in Football Manager games, start with a club in the Conference and try to get them up into winning the Premier League and the Champions League (typically with a bit of cheating).
Is it likely? No. But that its possible is a key part of the sporting game and it is valuable.
Vote SCons to get a Unionist majority and stop the SNP holding an advisory referendum.
If they win a Nationalist majority Sturgeon will hold an advisory referendum which Boris will ignore the result of and Unionists will boycott but SCon gains from the SNP avoids the hassle
And so the backers, like, I think, Topping, unless he's trolling, genuinely don't understand the nature of the opposition to this. They genuinely view fans as customers.
I say this not as a criticism of either Topping or the American owners, just as a reflection that there is an important lack of understanding amongst some people with a surprisingly large stake in all this of how European (British?) sports fans view sports.
OK, the issue doesn't go away. But the Tories don't give a monkeys about the issue. Nor the wider principle about the corrupting power of big money screwing the little man. Just the potential for headlines.
Either way there would still be all the competitive, qualification-led process except that it would be WBA (or Everton or Leicester) competing for entry. I would have thought that would thrill their fans.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1384475138121367555?s=20
Who'd have thought that Johnson, of all people, would be one of the first PMs to be honest about the fact that couldn't care less about football.
They didn't see this coming because they lack an intuitive sense of the game, which is no fault of theirs, but is a pretty blood major issue if they try to change the entire sport
Boris will listen to his core vote and refuse an authorised indyref2 before the next general election in 2024
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/half-uk-public-say-uk-government-should-allow-another-scottish-independence-referendum-if-snp-win-0
And I note your concern that the rights to the EPL might be devalued. Perish the thought.
Does a single day pass without you ramping Disney+ – the home of Adult Fans of Superheroes?
You work for them don't you?
"In an interview with Spanish TV, the Super League and Real Madrid chairman Florentino Perez insisted expulsion from the Champions League would not happen, and even suggested that matches could be shortened from 90 minutes to attract younger viewers."
What, so the ESL is going to own football, and they can change fundamental rules however they like, just because, and without consultation. They are the Founding Fathers.
The arrogance is possibly more breathtaking than the stupidity, which is another reason this must be shot down in flames
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e22207aa-a1c4-11eb-b457-728758ee7665?shareToken=f24230038c96048ff4c1c9d2ab24fb33
And why insult the tens of thousands of football supporters as blinkered
Are you so naive to even think the concept of these clubs playing in the PL and CL and this league could happen???
The thrill comes from the opportunity to complete against the best, remove that from the CL and the entire structure collapses both from a interest and monetary viewpoint.
On another note - can the government really do anything re. Super league?
It would be interesting to see if it worked or completely flopped
But you don't get that do you.
The fact that this emotional attachment doesn't chime even slightly with the commercial nature of what the sport has long become is the crux of the problem.
Forest, Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday are undoubtably big clubs despite their lack of success.
Foxy was on here the other night saying Forest and Wednesday "used to be big clubs". I pointed out that they still are.
In fact, I'd argue that both are bigger clubs than Leicester.
I guess the closest in F1 is the Tifosi (serious Ferrari fans).
I am increasingly inclined to the view that the Six can piss off and die, or evolve into Shanghai Hotspur, Wuhan Red Devils etc. Football will be better off without them. A good article here on the subject:
https://www.football365.com/news/big-six-european-super-league-john-nicholson
And as for "the opportunity to compete against the best". I think it is the opportunity to be in (and win) the EPL. Which will remain.
How much of a hit to the Scottish economy is indy worth?
What happened to jumpers for goalposts?
Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday, etc are undoubtedly significant sporting institutions in England, even if they are currently not successful sporting institutions.
Could this be a way that politics can act to ameliorate capitalism in a way that it does generally (as all social democrats, Labour or Conservative, would agree)?
My position is that the super league is stupid, because closed shop and no relegation. The EPL is not stupid, because not closed shop.
Therefore, the super league will start out dull and get duller, and its attraction will dwindle in a way that those from a different sporting culture don't understand.
The EPL will be fine without the big six (who can't really be allowed to stay and play their second string sides). It'll lose some money initially, but that's no bad thing for the consumer, and it'll be fine in the long run.
I'm looking forward to fans being back, and the Six being subjected to the chant of "You greedy fucking bastards" week in, week out.....
Can you name even one non-nationalist person (just one) who wouldn't incur your ire?
It's been done twice in my lifetime.
Wimbledon and Wigan Athletic have both gone from non league to lengthy spells in the top tier.
Latics played in Europe too.
Plus I said winning the PL and the Champions League, neither Wimbledon nor Wigan achieved that.
If you are a free-market libertarian you would say "no" I agree. Currently though there must be other examples of governmental structures under which a multitude of corporates operate in a free market way?
Our current system is not completely balls-out free market is it?
This is what the 6 are turning their back on.
Constituency
Labour 40%
Tories 30%
Plaid 19%
LDs 4%
List
Labour 38%
Tories 27%
Plaid 19%
Greens 5%
LDs 4%
UKIP 2%
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1384454671943671812?s=20
Nobody wants to be told what to do.
Nobody has really found a way to untangle that knot.
That's a separate issue to its standards of integrity, or its general competence.
I think much of the frustration from other parties comes from recognising that its skills at the former provide cover for the latter.
The suggestion didn't go down well.
Dan Roan
@danroan
Source close to the breakaway clubs insisting reports today of cracks starting to appear among ‘the 6’, with suggestions City/CFC reconsidering, are nothing more than “mischief-making”, and that the rebel alliance remains firm...
Although both won the FA Cup.
Tesco don't need Sainsburys, Waitrose, Aldi etc around. In fact they'd do better without them. But Manchester United would struggle to operate commercially without other 'footballing businesses' around to compete against.
You must know it's 'its'.