A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
If Boris goes along with any of this vaccine certification caper then everyone is voting LAB
And kinabalu will be happy!
Except about actually having vaxports. Really not keen. My sense though is that it won't come to much apart from for international travel. Has that "ok as answer to an exam question" feel about it to me.
Yes I meant re everyone voting LAB! I saw your post the other day re 'vaxports', I am happy with certification for international travel, not for domestic purposes. I think we are in the same position on this
Research appears to back up the suggestion young people are less likely to get a vaccine. A survey of more than 170,000 people by Imperial College London and Ipsos Mori found that 99% of over-80s said they would accept a jab compared to 83% of 18- to 29-year-olds.
An Office for National Statistics study published last month found 17% of 16- to 29-year-olds reported being hesitant to get a Covid vaccine, compared to only 1% of over-70s.
Fair enough that is a bit higher, although I think a few months ago we'd have been quite pleased to get 83% take up in any group. I also wonder how much of that 17% is made up of women considering having a child in the not too distant future.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
If Boris goes along with any of this vaccine certification caper then everyone is voting LAB
And kinabalu will be happy!
Well they will if Lab oppise it. But so far Labour appear to have opposes the government only in their even greater illiberalism. It's a choice between an illiberal party with a core of madmen in the right who happen to be atanding up for our liberties, and another illiberal party with a core of madmen on the left who are just bonkers *burgon*.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
Honestly, watching the news is just frustrating. The idea that the "EU" has exported anything is ridiculous. An American company that has a base in Puurs has exported vaccines globally from that site. If they were unable to do so from there they would simply have shifted their production to another site that didn't restrict their exports. The location of the site is simply irrelevant.
Christ well I dont vote tory since 2010 because of their authoritarian bollocks. This would push me into vote against the tory camp even if it meant voting for the lib dems
You should be voting Labour with your "caring and sharing" instincts and values.
Not really labour only pretend to care and share their policies are ones that do nothing for those they purport to care about where as my political leanings are to help people better themselves not just make them slightly more comfortable in a council hovel
Well you could bring that muscular tough love perspective to the party. It's a broad church.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
"These passports will be popular - but temporary"
No way will these be temporary if we allow them to be introduced.
There will be endless reasons why they need to extended in life and expanded in use and reach.
On the other hand, it is fascinating that Macron reads the British press "every day". I doubt Boris checks Le Monde or FAZ every day
It rather substantiates Komedy Dave Keating's point that one real EU problem is that they have no common media to bounce off - instead they all refer to English-speaking British media, and social networks, to get their talking points.
Honestly, watching the news is just frustrating. The idea that the "EU" has exported anything is ridiculous. An American company that has a base in Puurs has exported vaccines globally from that site. If they were unable to do so from there they would simply have shifted their production to another site that didn't restrict their exports. The location of the site is simply irrelevant.
Did you miss their slide claiming to be "The lead covax donor" when they are well down the list?
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Hoping Tim from Wetherspoons pours a bucket of cold sick over this idea if he hasn't already.
Any hints to your politics? Woke warrior or Priti fan?
Thanks!
One of the few remaining Lib Dems in the country, albeit more by default than anything else. Centre left economics (but with more emphasis on the centre) and in that awkward spot on the social spectrum where the truly woke probably think I'm an evil oppressor and people who like waving flags think I'm going on BLM marches while apologising for being white.
If it helps with triangulation, I'd prefer Starmer to Johnson, but saw a choice between Johnson and Corbyn as the difference between cutting off an arm and cutting off a leg.
Sounds like we are twins, only I am 20 years older...
I'm a lawyer rather than a doctor, so that probably makes you the good twin and me the evil one.
Well welcome anyway Maffew. Always good to have the voice of evil represented on here. :-)
On the other hand, it is fascinating that Macron reads the British press "every day". I doubt Boris checks Le Monde or FAZ every day
It rather substantiates Komedy Dave Keating's point that one real EU problem is that they have no common media to bounce off - instead they all refer to English-speaking British media, and social networks, to get their talking points.
I watched a bit of the live stream of the press conference after the EuCo meeting, and when Charles Michel switched to French, there were Europeans from places like the Netherlands and the Czech Republic commenting: "SPEAK ENGLISH!"
Any hints to your politics? Woke warrior or Priti fan?
Thanks!
One of the few remaining Lib Dems in the country, albeit more by default than anything else. Centre left economics (but with more emphasis on the centre) and in that awkward spot on the social spectrum where the truly woke probably think I'm an evil oppressor and people who like waving flags think I'm going on BLM marches while apologising for being white.
If it helps with triangulation, I'd prefer Starmer to Johnson, but saw a choice between Johnson and Corbyn as the difference between cutting off an arm and cutting off a leg.
Sounds like we are twins, only I am 20 years older...
Oh my we almost have enough lib dems to form the basis of a breeding program, within 50 years we might be releasing them back into the wild!
I think you will find that there are more of us than you realise, even after 11 years of relentless disappointment.
Christ well I dont vote tory since 2010 because of their authoritarian bollocks. This would push me into vote against the tory camp even if it meant voting for the lib dems
You should be voting Labour with your "caring and sharing" instincts and values.
Not really labour only pretend to care and share their policies are ones that do nothing for those they purport to care about where as my political leanings are to help people better themselves not just make them slightly more comfortable in a council hovel
Well you could bring that muscular tough love perspective to the party. It's a broad church.
I doubt labour members would enjoy my muscular tough love....I have difficulty keeping a straight face when people spout bollocks
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
When it comes to families with young children, wouldn't it make more sense to vaccinate them all at the same time, instead of doing them all individually? I hope someone in government has thought about this.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
Well get yourself a decent flag then you will be proud to fly it all the time
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
I am relaxed about flags but it does seem to some that the Saltire and EU flag are good, but the Union flag is not
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
The SNP is clearly using the saltire - to an absolutely insane extent - to drive its desired end: the break-up of the Union.
How hard is this to work out? The Union is finally - belatedly, to my mind - responding. With its own symbols.
eg there should be Union Jacks over every single box of vaccines, maybe every vial. It is a great British success, driven by British ingenuity and funded by British taxpayers (including many Scots, of course). Let the Scots know this. Slap a flag on it.
Fight back.
The EU did this for years, they demanded the EU flag be emblazoned on every project "funded by the EU", even if it was simply our own money recycled. You did not object then.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It'll be about as temporary as Stonehenge. Once ministers and health zealots get their hands on a tracking app like this they will never let go.
Christ well I dont vote tory since 2010 because of their authoritarian bollocks. This would push me into vote against the tory camp even if it meant voting for the lib dems
You should be voting Labour with your "caring and sharing" instincts and values.
Not really labour only pretend to care and share their policies are ones that do nothing for those they purport to care about where as my political leanings are to help people better themselves not just make them slightly more comfortable in a council hovel
Well you could bring that muscular tough love perspective to the party. It's a broad church.
I doubt labour members would enjoy my muscular tough love....I have difficulty keeping a straight face when people spout bollocks
Bit of acid humour is fine too. It's good to puncture some balloons now and again when they get too full of wind.
Let's just keep an open mind for now. The election is not for another 3 years.
Christ well I dont vote tory since 2010 because of their authoritarian bollocks. This would push me into vote against the tory camp even if it meant voting for the lib dems
You should be voting Labour with your "caring and sharing" instincts and values.
Not really labour only pretend to care and share their policies are ones that do nothing for those they purport to care about where as my political leanings are to help people better themselves not just make them slightly more comfortable in a council hovel
Well you could bring that muscular tough love perspective to the party. It's a broad church.
I doubt labour members would enjoy my muscular tough love....I have difficulty keeping a straight face when people spout bollocks
Bit of acid humour is fine too. It's good to puncture some balloons now and again when they get too full of wind.
Let's just keep an open mind for now. The election is not for another 3 years.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
The SNP is clearly using the saltire - to an absolutely insane extent - to drive its desired end: the break-up of the Union.
How hard is this to work out? The Union is finally - belatedly, to my mind - responding. With its own symbols.
eg there should be Union Jacks over every single box of vaccines, maybe every vial. It is a great British success, driven by British ingenuity and funded by British taxpayers (including many Scots, of course). Let the Scots know this. Slap a flag on it.
Fight back.
The EU did this for years, they demanded the EU flag be emblazoned on every project "funded by the EU", even if it was simply our own money recycled. You did not object then.
No, I didn't. It didn't make the EU popular when it came to a vote though.
I think Flag wars will get a shrug in England, but be divisive elsewhere.
On the other hand, it is fascinating that Macron reads the British press "every day". I doubt Boris checks Le Monde or FAZ every day
It rather substantiates Komedy Dave Keating's point that one real EU problem is that they have no common media to bounce off - instead they all refer to English-speaking British media, and social networks, to get their talking points.
I watched a bit of the live stream of the press conference after the EuCo meeting, and when Charles Michel switched to French, there were Europeans from places like the Netherlands and the Czech Republic commenting: "SPEAK ENGLISH!"
The one great achievement of England's membership of the EU 1973-2016 was.... persuading them all to speak our English language, aided by the admission of a dozen new states from the East, who were all obviously keen to speak English, rather than Russian. Bye bye French!
Any hints to your politics? Woke warrior or Priti fan?
Thanks!
One of the few remaining Lib Dems in the country, albeit more by default than anything else. Centre left economics (but with more emphasis on the centre) and in that awkward spot on the social spectrum where the truly woke probably think I'm an evil oppressor and people who like waving flags think I'm going on BLM marches while apologising for being white.
If it helps with triangulation, I'd prefer Starmer to Johnson, but saw a choice between Johnson and Corbyn as the difference between cutting off an arm and cutting off a leg.
Sounds like we are twins, only I am 20 years older...
Oh my we almost have enough lib dems to form the basis of a breeding program, within 50 years we might be releasing them back into the wild!
I think you will find that there are more of us than you realise, even after 11 years of relentless disappointment.
Yes, we can cope with the despair, it's the hope that gets you.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
Well I'm cutting him some slack. Absolutely hate the sight of flags everywhere - except at Glastonbury - but I know he has to do it. I get the strategy. So I won't be playing up.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
Cruise companies already are. Next up travel insurers.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It'll be about as temporary as Stonehenge. Once ministers and health zealots get their hands on a tracking app like this they will never let go.
Yes, the idea that it would be in the existing NHS app is extremely worrying. A physical ID would be better as it couldn't be easily tracked.
How long until the public health arseholes decide that people who visit the pub often should start being badgered about drinking too much with letters and emails.
The Tory party has become a statist and authoritarian nightmare. Boris talks the talk on being a liberal and he may fool a few simpletons with his act but time and again he's taken authoritarian policy positions.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
Cruise companies already are. Next up travel insurers.
I think its reasonable for foreign travel, just not to go to a bar or whatever
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Christ well I dont vote tory since 2010 because of their authoritarian bollocks. This would push me into vote against the tory camp even if it meant voting for the lib dems
You should be voting Labour with your "caring and sharing" instincts and values.
Not really labour only pretend to care and share their policies are ones that do nothing for those they purport to care about where as my political leanings are to help people better themselves not just make them slightly more comfortable in a council hovel
Well you could bring that muscular tough love perspective to the party. It's a broad church.
I doubt labour members would enjoy my muscular tough love....I have difficulty keeping a straight face when people spout bollocks
Bit of acid humour is fine too. It's good to puncture some balloons now and again when they get too full of wind.
Let's just keep an open mind for now. The election is not for another 3 years.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
There was a very good Guardian article the other day (was it John Harris? he usually writes their one good article a week) which pointed out that the Tories were "in danger " of becoming the Party of England, as the SNP have become The Party of Scotland
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It'll be about as temporary as Stonehenge. Once ministers and health zealots get their hands on a tracking app like this they will never let go.
Yes, the idea that it would be in the existing NHS app is extremely worrying. A physical ID would be better as it couldn't be easily tracked.
How long until the public health arseholes decide that people who visit the pub often should start being badgered about drinking too much with letters and emails.
The Tory party has become a statist and authoritarian nightmare. Boris talks the talk on being a liberal and he may fool a few simpletons with his act but time and again he's taken authoritarian policy positions.
I am beginning to wonder if Johnson hasn't got long covid and is just being swept along by mad statists within the public health and security systems.
As Charles Walker or Steve Baker said earlier today, if Johnson wasn't PM but a backbencher he would be leading the protests against this mad idea.
Hopefully the Mail will be able to kill this vaccine/covid test app idea dead before it gets serious legs.
I doubt it, but equally there are a lot more decisions to follow as we move out of covid restrictions, and of course the demand for answers now are unrealistic not least because of the unfolding catastrophe across Europe with talk tonight of France and others being red carded
This is where being anti-science and anti a vaccine developed in association with the world's number one university gets you.
World's number one university?
It’s a number 2 university, actually.
Oxford says otherwise based on the intermediate findings ;-)
Any institution that could give a PhD to notorious forger and liar Naomi Wolf is clearly a bit shit.
Oxford doesn't give anyone a PhD, we leave that to the tabs
DPhil then, Mr Finicky.
What I don’t understand is why they haven’t withdrawn it yet. Bad enough they passed it, but after it had been publicly exposed as fraudulent any self-respecting university would have acted at once.
It was not fraudulent.
It was incorrect. She made a mistake. Her ignorance was exposed in a very public manner.
If a DPhil is awarded for (partially) incorrect work, then should it be later taken away ?
I don't think so -- outright fraud or plagiarism (like our friend Ursula vdL) is a different matter.
The responsibility for ensuring the thesis is correct really lies with the examiners (especially the external) and the supervisor. Not with the student who made a mistake.
Why, even @YBarddCwsc made a mistake in his thesis (naturally entitled The Evil History of Skiing )
No. She committed actual fraud. She deliberately misrepresented her source material to claim an uptick in prosecutions of homosexuals when in fact most of the cases she wrote about involved paedophilia - including the rape of a six year old boy that she passed off as a consensual act for which a teenager had been punished.
No self respecting university should let this doctorate stand. But Oxford does.
Am I the only PB-er that gets confused between "ydoethur" and "YBardCwsc"?
I see one as living in Aberystwyth, largely speaking Welsh but happy to speak English. Works in academe. Has a life, infrequent sex. Reads a lot of R S Thomas and likes laverbread, but has been to London quite a lot. Likes Bach flute sonatas re-done by male voice choirs
I see the second as living in a hut on the Llyn Peninsula, goes out at night to shake a fist in the direction of Liverpool, or that pit of English squalor that is Caerphilly, then goes home and eats weasel guts with daffodil leaves, the only time he speaks English is on here, otherwise he mutters in cynghanedd next to an open fire of Snowdon peat
They sound different but they are the two personalities of one bipolar Welsh guy in Clapham
'Remember him, then, for he, too, is a winner of wars, Enduring like a tree under the curious stars'
A big thank-you @algarkirk for introducing me to The Peasant. What a brilliant poem!
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It'll be about as temporary as Stonehenge. Once ministers and health zealots get their hands on a tracking app like this they will never let go.
Yes, the idea that it would be in the existing NHS app is extremely worrying. A physical ID would be better as it couldn't be easily tracked.
How long until the public health arseholes decide that people who visit the pub often should start being badgered about drinking too much with letters and emails.
The Tory party has become a statist and authoritarian nightmare. Boris talks the talk on being a liberal and he may fool a few simpletons with his act but time and again he's taken authoritarian policy positions.
That's an implementation detail. Shouldn't we deal with the principle first?
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Well you can travel without using an oyster card, I for example have never possessed one
Alcohol is limited to those of adult age for good scientific reasons as it effect on developing brains can be severe
A vax port for going to a bar has no scientific reason whatsoever because if you are vaccinated the unvaccinated arent really going to affect you. It is security theatre to reassure the Leons of the world nothing more
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
The Presidential election may still be a year away, but it is never too soon to bolster my position by indulging in petty UK bashing. The good news it it helps their leaders too, so I can indulge in it as much as I like
I'm not a huge fan of Andrew Adonis, but to be fair to him, based on past performance it wasn't at all crazy to think UK vaccine procurement would be a mess and have contracts for mates. Obviously he was wrong and should admit it, but it wasn't an obviously stupid view at the time.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
The SNP is clearly using the saltire - to an absolutely insane extent - to drive its desired end: the break-up of the Union.
How hard is this to work out? The Union is finally - belatedly, to my mind - responding. With its own symbols.
eg there should be Union Jacks over every single box of vaccines, maybe every vial. It is a great British success, driven by British ingenuity and funded by British taxpayers (including many Scots, of course). Let the Scots know this. Slap a flag on it.
Fight back.
The EU did this for years, they demanded the EU flag be emblazoned on every project "funded by the EU", even if it was simply our own money recycled. You did not object then.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
Cruise companies already are. Next up travel insurers.
CDC announced today cruising will not start before 1st November 2021
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
There was a very good Guardian article the other day (was it John Harris? he usually writes their one good article a week) which pointed out that the Tories were "in danger " of becoming the Party of England, as the SNP have become The Party of Scotland
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
I'm not a huge fan of Andrew Adonis, but to be fair to him, based on past performance it wasn't at all crazy to think UK vaccine procurement would be a mess and have contracts for mates. Obviously he was wrong and should admit it, but it wasn't an obviously stupid view at the time.
I said basically the same things at the time. The key is not that you need to make some overwrought mea culpa about being wrong, but you do need to accept you said it and were wrong - it will be thrown in peoples' faces regardless, but the latter allows reasonable people to see you've admitted error and moved on, rather than pretend it didn't happen.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
How many times have we been told that something was going to be temporary only for it to become indefinite. Think of taking liquids onto planes for instance. That was supposed to be temporary.
It'll be about as temporary as Stonehenge. Once ministers and health zealots get their hands on a tracking app like this they will never let go.
Yes, the idea that it would be in the existing NHS app is extremely worrying. A physical ID would be better as it couldn't be easily tracked.
How long until the public health arseholes decide that people who visit the pub often should start being badgered about drinking too much with letters and emails.
The Tory party has become a statist and authoritarian nightmare. Boris talks the talk on being a liberal and he may fool a few simpletons with his act but time and again he's taken authoritarian policy positions.
That's an implementation detail. Shouldn't we deal with the principle first?
It's not merely a detail, Richard. It's a huge problem that the DoH want to try and repurpose the already awful app into something that becomes a necessity to simply enjoy a night out at a restaurant or pub.
The other issue is that once it exists it will be impossible to get rid. The public health people will have the final say and convince the government they can defeat death with this mass tracking app and if they get to keep it then the NHS will ensure no one ever dies ever again.
Handing these kinds of powers over to the state shouldn't be taken as lightly as you seem to be, once they have them they won't give them up again.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Quite.
I am honestly mystified by the outrage at the idea we might have to flash our phone at a bouncer for 5 seconds, to get in a pub, when we have all endured being locked down at home FOR MOST OF A YEAR without demur
These apps and passports are an exit route. They are not ideal, but plagues are not ideal. Hopefully, in a year or so, we can junk them, and return to normality, or something close
People have to accept we have been through a history-changing event, like a world war. Liberties are infringed in wars, to ensure national survival. Necessarily. And then they are re-won when we earn the Peace.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
Because there is no scientific reason to need it. It is purely regulation for the sake of regulation. Frankly bring it in if you like but a lot of us will be refuseniks
It's great if a deal resolves this, but one cannot escape the feeling that the lesson the leadership will take from it is that bluster, misinformation and bullying behaviour works.
In fairness that's a lesson that should already have been obvious.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Well you can travel without using an oyster card, I for example have never possessed one
Alcohol is limited to those of adult age for good scientific reasons as it effect on developing brains can be severe
A vax port for going to a bar has no scientific reason whatsoever because if you are vaccinated the unvaccinated arent really going to affect you. It is security theatre to reassure the Leons of the world nothing more
Ah, so your opposition has nothing to do with civil liberties, it's entirely based on an irrational view that the unvaccinated aren't going to affect others. You must think vaccines are 100% effective, and that there are zero people who can't have a vaccine.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
Yeah no issue if it was like a driver's license. It's the idea of the app that is awful for me. I'm not sure we'll need it given overall vaccination rates and I'm also not sure how it will handle tourism, do foreign nationals not get to enjoy the nation's pubs and bars?
There's a lot of talk about companies moving out of countries that threaten export bans. In reality, though, there must be huge costs involved in relocating highly specialised manufacturing plants. It would mean a mega sized interruption to their incomes.
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
Cruise companies already are. Next up travel insurers.
I think its reasonable for foreign travel, just not to go to a bar or whatever
You may be right but...
a) If requiring a (free, let us not forget) vaccine gives a business an advantage they will take it. b) HMG will be seeking levers to nudge waverers toweards vaccination, and this is a cheap one.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
Well I'm cutting him some slack. Absolutely hate the sight of flags everywhere - except at Glastonbury - but I know he has to do it. I get the strategy. So I won't be playing up.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Well you can travel without using an oyster card, I for example have never possessed one
Alcohol is limited to those of adult age for good scientific reasons as it effect on developing brains can be severe
A vax port for going to a bar has no scientific reason whatsoever because if you are vaccinated the unvaccinated arent really going to affect you. It is security theatre to reassure the Leons of the world nothing more
Ah, so your opposition has nothing to do with civil liberties, it's entirely based on an irrational view that the unvaccinated aren't going to affect others. You must think vaccines are 100% effective, and that there are zero people who can't have a vaccine.
No it is totally on civil liberties. As I pointed out it has no basis in science that its going to affect the r whatsoever therefore not needed. Therefore its regulation because they can.....exactly the same as your proposed porn passport. The tories can fuck off. Bring it in and I predict it is the one thing you can do to lose the next election.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Quite.
I am honestly mystified by the outrage at the idea we might have to flash our phone at a bouncer for 5 seconds, to get in a pub, when we have all endured being locked down at home FOR MOST OF A YEAR without demur
These apps and passports are an exit route. They are not ideal, but plagues are not ideal. Hopefully, in a year or so, we can junk them, and return to normality, or something close
People have to accept we have been through a history-changing event, like a world war. Liberties are infringed in wars, to ensure national survival. Necessarily. And then they are re-won when we earn the Peace.
Why would they stop at pubs? That's probably the bit that's bemusing me most here - this desire to only associate this with pubs.
Noone's yet saying you need it to get into the cinema or Tesco or your university lecture theatre, but presumably that's where the logic will need to lead if people think this is so important to have for pubs.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
There was a very good Guardian article the other day (was it John Harris? he usually writes their one good article a week) which pointed out that the Tories were "in danger " of becoming the Party of England, as the SNP have become The Party of Scotland
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
I'm not a creature. It's people like me - in the Modern Metro Left - who will ensure that the plague of softhead National Populism will be beaten as sure as Covid almost is. We are the vaccine.
There's a lot of talk about companies moving out of countries that threaten export bans. In reality, though, there must be huge costs involved in relocating highly specialised manufacturing plants. It would mean a mega sized interruption to their incomes.
It's not current production at risk - but future investment decisions.
I said basically the same things at the time. The key is not that you need to make some overwrought mea culpa about being wrong, but you do need to accept you said it and were wrong - it will be thrown in peoples' faces regardless, but the latter allows reasonable people to see you've admitted error and moved on, rather than pretend it didn't happen.
Yes exactly this. Unlike Adonis I didn't expect our procurement program to be a disaster because I'd read into it enough to see that we seemed to be doing all the right things, but I did think the EU's one would be better than ours. Clearly I was wrong about that and I've got no problem admitting it, but I don't think it was a stupid view to take with the information available to me at the time.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
There was a very good Guardian article the other day (was it John Harris? he usually writes their one good article a week) which pointed out that the Tories were "in danger " of becoming the Party of England, as the SNP have become The Party of Scotland
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
Sounds like a rightwing delusion to me.
Well, here's the rather good article by famous rightwinger John Harris:
A State-driven app that is used every time you go into a public place like a pub or sports ground? What could possible go wrong?
And this is the Conservatives proposing this? I am losing all sense of my bearings in politics.
Calling all Liberals.
You've found a cause to get yourself back in contention.
You are surprised.....this is the party of the claire perry porn laws, various other illiberal internet tracking. They cannot be trusted with our liberty
I did warn you.
Businesses will demand it, because they see it as a way to reopening, and reassuring their clientele. These passports will be popular - but temporary
There was a notable lack of business voices supporting the idea today, and quite a few rubbishing it. Though admittedly I didn’t listen to all that much news.
Leon assumes he is in a majority demanding them, I suspect he is fringe on this
I'm not fringe. PB is fringe.
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
Airlines I think will and thats got an actual point. I think the appetite to do it or to accept businesses doing it internally is fringe regardless of if its decreed by law or voluntary. Yes pb is very fringe
Cruise companies already are. Next up travel insurers.
I think its reasonable for foreign travel, just not to go to a bar or whatever
You may be right but...
a) If requiring a (free, let us not forget) vaccine gives a business an advantage they will take it. b) HMG will be seeking levers to nudge waverers toweards vaccination, and this is a cheap one.
Will it give businesses an advantage. Last year for example I spent about 1200 on theatre tickets. Now the number of people that goes to theatres isnt huge. If say for example 10% are people like me they aren't going to replace them with people who didnt goto the theatre before but suddenly now will because vax ports.
Same with pubs, personally after this year I now find going round a mates with a bottle preferable to a night at the pub anyway. So they need to persuade me to go occasionally again. A vax port is going to make me go no.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
Yeah no issue if it was like a driver's license. It's the idea of the app that is awful for me. I'm not sure we'll need it given overall vaccination rates and I'm also not sure how it will handle tourism, do foreign nationals not get to enjoy the nation's pubs and bars?
OK, in that case I agree with you. There shouldn't be any tracking, and it is possible - though we don't know yet - that it might not be necessary to have any scheme. But if it is necessary - if it allows venues to open, when without some scheme they would have to remain closed - then that's a trade-off worth accepting, surely?
As for foreign nationals, yes, they would need a card showing they've been jabbed before they can come into the UK, and they can show it if necessary to get into venues. As things stand, they're not coming here anyway, so it's a non-problem.
Physically, it could be a plastic card, or a QR code printed on a piece of paper or displayed on a phone combined with a photo. It doesn't have to be 100% non-forgeable, this is about risk reduction, not catching every last case.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
It's only remotely all right if said people aren't able to get one. It's not that a vaxport infringes your civil liberties if you're able to get one, but when lack of one excludes those who don't have a chance to get one, that's a long way from all right.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Quite.
I am honestly mystified by the outrage at the idea we might have to flash our phone at a bouncer for 5 seconds, to get in a pub, when we have all endured being locked down at home FOR MOST OF A YEAR without demur
These apps and passports are an exit route. They are not ideal, but plagues are not ideal. Hopefully, in a year or so, we can junk them, and return to normality, or something close
People have to accept we have been through a history-changing event, like a world war. Liberties are infringed in wars, to ensure national survival. Necessarily. And then they are re-won when we earn the Peace.
The Track and trace app was crap - what makes you think this one will be any different?
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
It's cause you're on Twitter, which I've now come off and am much calmer as a result.
No-one in the real world is talking incessantly about flags. Everyone on Twitter is.
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
Yes, that poll says it all: Labour's split down the middle on a fundamental issue of culture that has landslide support in the country as a whole and almost total support amongst the voters they have to win over. No wonder Sir Kir's scared to come off the fence - he can see the people waiting to pounce on him when he does...
There was a very good Guardian article the other day (was it John Harris? he usually writes their one good article a week) which pointed out that the Tories were "in danger " of becoming the Party of England, as the SNP have become The Party of Scotland
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
I'm not a creature. It's people like me - in the Modern Metro Left - who will ensure that the plague of softhead National Populism will be beaten as sure as Covid almost is. We are the vaccine.
If you're the vaccine, you're extremely ineffective in the over-40s...
It illustrates the Labour dilemma. A number of voter enclaves without a common agenda. But these voter enclaves cluster into three groups even about something as harmless and universal as respect for the flag of the nation of which your party is a principal instrument of power. 38 approve, 36 don't and (I assume) a third sizeable group of 26 or so don't mind one way or the other.
When compared to the common identity of the Tories it is startling and striking. This makes a difficult starting point for telling a few million Tories to switch. Nothing about Tory voters suggests that they can be enthused about a party which is half hearted about its own country.
It suggests that the Tory party may have reached the point where it has the better claim to be the one nation party than Labour.
No party has a monopoly on the flag.
It's just naff to have one on constant display, like some fetish, but a fairly harmless fetishism.
Agree. I have no fondness for turning the flag into A Thing, but better that than it be the property of small minded fascists, and once the issue is outed in this way, the clefts it reveals go much further than flags.
Labour's problem is not, of course, flags in themselves, it is the incompatible enclave nature of their support base, and its unattractiveness to normal a-political people who never think about flags until someone burns it or is against it.
There is an interesting piece of academic work here on this thread concerning flag symbolism, and why it evokes such strong reactions:
For someone not bothered you do seem to be a bit obsessed
No, I am not bothered if people fly flags or not, though I am interested in what it means to them and why they do so.
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
The SNP is clearly using the saltire - to an absolutely insane extent - to drive its desired end: the break-up of the Union.
How hard is this to work out? The Union is finally - belatedly, to my mind - responding. With its own symbols.
eg there should be Union Jacks over every single box of vaccines, maybe every vial. It is a great British success, driven by British ingenuity and funded by British taxpayers (including many Scots, of course). Let the Scots know this. Slap a flag on it.
Fight back.
The EU did this for years, they demanded the EU flag be emblazoned on every project "funded by the EU", even if it was simply our own money recycled. You did not object then.
In Scotland the EU flag isn't associated with hundreds of marches a year involving some of the worst bigots, rioters and violent racists around, folk like the people involved in the crime below. But please do carry on plastering the UJ everywhere.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
Yeah no issue if it was like a driver's license. It's the idea of the app that is awful for me. I'm not sure we'll need it given overall vaccination rates and I'm also not sure how it will handle tourism, do foreign nationals not get to enjoy the nation's pubs and bars?
OK, in that case I agree with you. There shouldn't be any tracking, and it is possible - though we don't know yet - that it might not be necessary to have any scheme. But if it is necessary - if it allows venues to open, when without some scheme they would have to remain closed - then that's a trade-off worth accepting, surely?
As for foreign nationals, yes, they would need a card showing they've been jabbed before they can come into the UK, and they can show it if necessary to get into venues. As things stand, they're not coming here anyway, so it's a non-problem.
Physically, it could be a plastic card, or a QR code printed on a piece of paper or displayed on a phone combined with a photo. It doesn't have to be 100% non-forgeable, this is about risk reduction, not catching every last case.
I also think that the scheme should come with a one year expiry date and shouldn't be allowed to become a defacto entry card to hospitality venues.
It's the tracking I'm fully against and it does feel like Matt Hancock has been fully captured by the public health people promising they can eliminate death once and for all.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
The nature of what they're asking for is the issue. They want to do it with the existing app which essentially allows the state to track your movements in very high detail without the judicial protections that come with criminal investigations and warrants necessary to do it otherwise.
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
OK, but if it was a physical card, like youngsters have to show to get into a pub or nightclub, that would be OK, yes? If not, why not?
It's only remotely all right if said people aren't able to get one. It's not that a vaxport infringes your civil liberties if you're able to get one, but when lack of one excludes those who don't have a chance to get one, that's a long way from all right.
The PM did say that any such scheme would have to wait until every person had been offered the vaccine. It would be political suicide to bring in a scheme before that.
I'm not a huge fan of Andrew Adonis, but to be fair to him, based on past performance it wasn't at all crazy to think UK vaccine procurement would be a mess and have contracts for mates. Obviously he was wrong and should admit it, but it wasn't an obviously stupid view at the time.
I said basically the same things at the time. The key is not that you need to make some overwrought mea culpa about being wrong, but you do need to accept you said it and were wrong - it will be thrown in peoples' faces regardless, but the latter allows reasonable people to see you've admitted error and moved on, rather than pretend it didn't happen.
He's on the Spectator TV weekly political programme from 4 hours ago.
I haven't listened yet.
But I am sure he has very sensible opinions.
However since he blocked me on Twitter several years ago for being insufficiently Remainiac, I am not up to date with his sensible opinions.
Can anyone explain to me why a certificate showing you've been jabbed or tested is a major infringement of your civil liberties, but a card shown by a youngster to prove they're over 18, or a bus pass to prove you're over 65, or an Oyster card, isn't?
Quite.
I am honestly mystified by the outrage at the idea we might have to flash our phone at a bouncer for 5 seconds, to get in a pub, when we have all endured being locked down at home FOR MOST OF A YEAR without demur
These apps and passports are an exit route. They are not ideal, but plagues are not ideal. Hopefully, in a year or so, we can junk them, and return to normality, or something close
People have to accept we have been through a history-changing event, like a world war. Liberties are infringed in wars, to ensure national survival. Necessarily. And then they are re-won when we earn the Peace.
No.
The vaccine itself is the exit route.
What's the rational reason for requiring a vaccine to go into a pub? Once the vulnerable are vaccinated the NHS is no longer in any danger of collapse. At that point refusing a vaccine is just a personal choice, and a personal risk.
Comments
Pfizer rejects the EU position
Pfizer are very welcome to relocate 100% to the UK (my observation)
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1375205672216887299?s=20
But so far Labour appear to have opposes the government only in their even greater illiberalism. It's a choice between an illiberal party with a core of madmen in the right who happen to be atanding up for our liberties, and another illiberal party with a core of madmen on the left who are just bonkers *burgon*.
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1375198563328786443
No way will these be temporary if we allow them to be introduced.
There will be endless reasons why they need to extended in life and expanded in use and reach.
Resist.
It rather substantiates Komedy Dave Keating's point that one real EU problem is that they have no common media to bounce off - instead they all refer to English-speaking British media, and social networks, to get their talking points.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1375202050200457220
Whereabouts are you geographically?
Also I'm not saying they should be compulsory, I am saying let the free market decide. And I predict the free market will want these things, starting with airlines but spreading from there
I am also saying I hope and believe it is temporary. Once every adult has been offered a jab or two, then the refuseniks can all go live on the Isle of Sheppey, and the rest of the world adapts
They are signing up well known journalists including Simon McCoy and Rosie Wright of Euronews breakfast, together with Darren McCaffery
Are they suddenly more patriotic than a couple of months ago? Or is it that they clutch onto nurse for fear of something worse? It does seem that the love of the Union flag seems greatly increased by the threat to the break up of the Union. One paradox is that "in your face" Unionism is more likely to encourage the countries fissile tendencies.
I have a Union Flag (and an England one) to wave at appropriate sporting events, but most of the time they are in the cupboard.
https://twitter.com/JeremyFarrar/status/1375193868241670148?s=20
Hence why the poll seems to debunk that view
How hard is this to work out? The Union is finally - belatedly, to my mind - responding. With its own symbols.
eg there should be Union Jacks over every single box of vaccines, maybe every vial. It is a great British success, driven by British ingenuity and funded by British taxpayers (including many Scots, of course). Let the Scots know this. Slap a flag on it.
Fight back.
The EU did this for years, they demanded the EU flag be emblazoned on every project "funded by the EU", even if it was simply our own money recycled. You did not object then.
Let's just keep an open mind for now. The election is not for another 3 years.
I think Flag wars will get a shrug in England, but be divisive elsewhere.
Then, once we'd done that, we fucked off.
Genius
https://twitter.com/business/status/1375184237503115269
How long until the public health arseholes decide that people who visit the pub often should start being badgered about drinking too much with letters and emails.
The Tory party has become a statist and authoritarian nightmare. Boris talks the talk on being a liberal and he may fool a few simpletons with his act but time and again he's taken authoritarian policy positions.
https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375213831107059713?s=20
If you love your country, you vote Tory in England (or SNP in Scotland)
If Labour allows that to happen, they are finished. So the flag thing is quite pivotal, even if it seems trivial, and Starmer is right to react the way he does. The problem is that Labour has too many voters and activists like Kinabalu, who find this all utterly distasteful, and indeed hate patriotism of any kind (especially patriotism in a successful white European country that conquered the world, and *should* feel guilty)
We are entering a post-truth age where identity is paramount. The Left has done much to encourage this. Unfortunately, for them, they have simultaneously bestirred national identity, without realising.
England awakes, and it is not fond of creatures like Kinabalu
As Charles Walker or Steve Baker said earlier today, if Johnson wasn't PM but a backbencher he would be leading the protests against this mad idea.
Alcohol is limited to those of adult age for good scientific reasons as it effect on developing brains can be severe
A vax port for going to a bar has no scientific reason whatsoever because if you are vaccinated the unvaccinated arent really going to affect you. It is security theatre to reassure the Leons of the world nothing more
It's something dreamt up by Priti Patel and the public health people who think they know what's best for us and would have everyone stay home all the time forever.
One of the reasons to be against it is thinking about what a future government of who knows what make-up could think to do with it.
The Presidential election may still be a year away, but it is never too soon to bolster my position by indulging in petty UK bashing. The good news it it helps their leaders too, so I can indulge in it as much as I like
--AS
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9402817/Oxford-University-trial-giving-AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-nasal-spray.html
No. They can't.
The other issue is that once it exists it will be impossible to get rid. The public health people will have the final say and convince the government they can defeat death with this mass tracking app and if they get to keep it then the NHS will ensure no one ever dies ever again.
Handing these kinds of powers over to the state shouldn't be taken as lightly as you seem to be, once they have them they won't give them up again.
I am honestly mystified by the outrage at the idea we might have to flash our phone at a bouncer for 5 seconds, to get in a pub, when we have all endured being locked down at home FOR MOST OF A YEAR without demur
These apps and passports are an exit route. They are not ideal, but plagues are not ideal. Hopefully, in a year or so, we can junk them, and return to normality, or something close
People have to accept we have been through a history-changing event, like a world war. Liberties are infringed in wars, to ensure national survival. Necessarily. And then they are re-won when we earn the Peace.
In fairness that's a lesson that should already have been obvious.
a) If requiring a (free, let us not forget) vaccine gives a business an advantage they will take it.
b) HMG will be seeking levers to nudge waverers toweards vaccination, and this is a cheap one.
Noone's yet saying you need it to get into the cinema or Tesco or your university lecture theatre, but presumably that's where the logic will need to lead if people think this is so important to have for pubs.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/14/conservatives-party-england-tories-populists
Same with pubs, personally after this year I now find going round a mates with a bottle preferable to a night at the pub anyway. So they need to persuade me to go occasionally again. A vax port is going to make me go no.
As for foreign nationals, yes, they would need a card showing they've been jabbed before they can come into the UK, and they can show it if necessary to get into venues. As things stand, they're not coming here anyway, so it's a non-problem.
Physically, it could be a plastic card, or a QR code printed on a piece of paper or displayed on a phone combined with a photo. It doesn't have to be 100% non-forgeable, this is about risk reduction, not catching every last case.
No-one in the real world is talking incessantly about flags. Everyone on Twitter is.
Meanwhile, everyone in every other country in the world is saying what, you mean you don’t fly your flag from every government building already?
https://twitter.com/AamerAnwar/status/1374485392720683008?s=20
It's the tracking I'm fully against and it does feel like Matt Hancock has been fully captured by the public health people promising they can eliminate death once and for all.
I haven't listened yet.
But I am sure he has very sensible opinions.
However since he blocked me on Twitter several years ago for being insufficiently Remainiac, I am not up to date with his sensible opinions.
The vaccine itself is the exit route.
What's the rational reason for requiring a vaccine to go into a pub? Once the vulnerable are vaccinated the NHS is no longer in any danger of collapse. At that point refusing a vaccine is just a personal choice, and a personal risk.